PEC VS Starrett - actual difference?

[Matthew N. Masail]

The PEC combo Squares are almost half the price of a Starrettt, and they seem to get high praise. I often read about people using their Starrett for more than 15years and it's still dead on, I was wondering if the PEC is the same? what is the actual difference between them? I am looking to get a 12" combo and a 4" double and want tools that I know I can count on.

[ian maybury]

We don't get PEC here Matthew, and they do seem to get good reviews - but my experience a couple of years ago with squares was perhaps illustrative of what can happen. Led by a major magazine review i bought a mid priced example they praised only to find that it wasn't accurate, was sticky in movement - and the stud snapped off due to a heat treatment problem on first or second use. I then bought what was/still is for their higher end lines a highly regarded Japanese metrology brand, only to find that it was also sticky and inaccurate and the stud assembly was a poor fit which made it tough to get the rule back in - they had recently switched production to a low cost location. Thinking it was likely an exception i accepted a replacement, only for it to be the same.

Reading the signs in the air i breathed deeply and bought a Starrett - the lower cost cast version with the crinkle finish. Night and day. Dead accurate, well finished, lovely feel, lots of heft. A pleasure every time I pick it up. Just about the only negative was the realisation that in retrospect the more expensive stainless rule is probably quite a bit easier to read over time - the steel one darkens up. Significantly more expensive, but i paid out far more than any difference in return shipping costs and had about 3 months of hassle and messing about.

If you happen to live close to a source that will accept returns 'in the event of' and not result in restocking or return shipping charges then maybe it's worth trying for a decent example of a lower cost square, but i've no idea where the high profile US mag that ran the above review of squares got its product from because they didn't get a single bum example across heaven knows how many brands. No doubt they would say i was unlucky.

Definitely a case of getting what you pay for in my view….

[Larry Edgerton]

I have a Mitatoyo combination set that is another option. I have used it for over twenty years heavily, every day use, and when amortized over that time period its about 2 cents a day and counting. I actually like the mitatoyo stuff better but do have some Starrett stuff and it is first rate as well.

[Matt Evans]

I'll vouch for Mitutoyo as a Starrett alternative. No experience with PEC.

I have a mixture of Starrett and Mitutoyo squares, calipers, dial indicators, etc. Both work, are accurate, easy to use, easy to read....and stay that way though heavy use. I've tried cheaper brands, and never had any luck with them, at least not for long term accurate work.

[Phil Thien]

PEC is very good stuff.

[Jim Matthews]

+2 on the PEC

I have both the Starret and PEC 4" doubles.
I bought the Starret, starting out.

The PEC came with a trade.

I can't tell the difference, in practice.
I use them mainly to check edges for square off a reference face.

If I have more than one depth to maintain, it's nice to have more than one.

I will say that the PEC beam is easier to replace than the Starrett.
Perhaps that means there's more play in the mechanism.

They both rust, in my shop and must be kept lightly oiled.

[Mike Henderson]

I have Mitutoyo and Starrett for larger combination squares and PEC for the small 4" double squares. All of it is good. I bought my Starrett and Mitutoyo squares on eBay a while back. Don't know how they're priced now there (whether it's a good deal or not).

Mike

[george wilson]

I like PEC tools just fine.

[glenn bradley]

I actually sold my Starrett double squares and kept the PECs. They were smoother in operation and better finished; the Starretts were sharp to the hand (which is probably a level of precision and maybe not a bad thing) and a bit jumpy in use. :confused: I do have a 12" Starrett combo which again, is not as smooth as my PEC but, after some use has proven to be quite usable.

[john zulu]

I have a Mitutoyo and PEC square. Both are fine tools. I made a mistake with Mitutoyo. The ruler seem to rust. I am quite sure I got the harden steel..... Anyway it is dead accurate.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks guys, I think I'll give the PEC a shot, maybe even cosmetic seconds. I have a lot of tools to buy and saving 100$-150$ will help.

[ian maybury]

A note of caution on the Mitutoyos - their products are normally excellent. Not only that but the head is hardened. It's unfortunately one i had problems with as above roughly a couple of years ago though. According to a customer service guy i spoke to at the time production had recently been relocated. It's probably still very much worth a look, as it seems very unlikely that the situation would have been allowed to continue.

This might be worth a look, but there's a few watching it: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mitutoyo-6-Combination-Square-Set-NEW-In-The-Box-/221646840804

[Dave Cav]

I have a couple of PEC squares and I'm pretty happy with them; they seem to be nearly as nice as the one Starrett square I have.

I also have a couple of iGaging double squares. All I can say is that you get what you pay for. They're the ones I use at school because they get beat up and if I loose it, no big deal.

[Winton Applegate]

You know me . . . I'm not ver literate so I like lots of pictures . . . but I can't take pictures . . .
well any way hopefully to stimulate some real photographers here to put some up
The top Mitutoyo is like thirty years old and is very high quality the only chintz is the thin adjust knob next to the larger one is plastic. Its only function though is as an indicator. I tried to show that but failed. There is a white mark on it to show where the hook is that goes into the groove in the rule. This is very handy and I wish the Starretts had this. I like the Mitutoyo very much in every way.

I am interested to see how Mitutoyo has changed. Does any one have photos of a new one.

An how PECs compare ( I have never heard of them but then I am a hermit).

The smaller squares are both Starretts and are about a decade old. The 45° one I had to over haul when I got it. The hook was rough and would stick and had burs on it. As I recall I had to correct for square some by filing a few whispers off.

I really like the black wrinkle finish as I said. I was disappointed it did not have Starrett engraved on the edge like the hardened one has. I like the Starrett rules quite a lot and would buy Starrett again.

Bottom line check every thing / buy the best / have fun / learn to take photos so you aren't like me.

PS: I left the overall photo huge so some body might get some sort of detail out of it if you zoom in. Sigh

[ian maybury]

Searching for a photo of the model of Mitutoyo square I was supplied with in 2011 but returned (see my post above about the poor quality) for you Winton i notice that (a) it's very different to your old one, and (b) quite different to the one offered from the last link below - which may (?) be a replacement product/the current model.

This is the type that was shipped to me in late 2011 from the UK supplier , it or one visually very similar is still on offer here from Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/MITUTOYO-Piece-Combination-Square-Set/dp/B005PX87ZW

Here it is again, but this time marked as discontinued but pointing to a replacement product also on offer (i found at least one more source saying the same):

https://www.acklandsgrainger.com/AGIPortalWeb/WebSource/ProductDisplay/globalProductDetailDisplay.do?item_code=MTT180-905U

Here's the set currently offered by a US supplier that just came up on a quick Google - it's clearly a different set. The protractor casting is different, and the casting flanges/webs in general look thicker. Yet its painted in the pale grey of the type above:

https://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/products.cfm?categoryID=9132

I'm not sure what to think. What I do know is that the quality of the example of the first type that i was supplied with in 2011 was poor as described above - worse even than described, because the protrator was such a loose fit in its housing that it would have been highly inaccurate. It'd be great if they have returned to product of their original very high quality product.

I'm guessing two possibilities - (a) that there's a second higher quality version of the combo square set available (but this didn't seem to be the case when i was searching back in 2011), or (b) that as seemed possible back in 2011 they have switched to a new source - or maybe even reverted to their old one. (the poor 2011 product they said came from a new supplier they had recently switched to)

Anybody have any hard information?

[Jeff Heath]

I have an older full set of Starrett goodies, including the sliding square, protractor, and 3 centers. They are at least 30 years old or so, and are all still dead nuts accurate. While up on a ladder hanging cedar siding about a month ago, I dropped and broke my old Union combo square. I'm glad I brought it up the ladder and not my Starrett. Anyway's, I was distraught, and the wife witnessed my temper tantrum first hand, as I don't like to damage my tools. I guess you could say I was pi$$ed.

Under the tree on Christmas morn' was a brand new Starrett 12" combination square. I've heard the new stuff wasn't as good as the old stuff, but I have to say that it is dead accurate, and I tested it against known tools in my shop that are 'good'. Very well machined, and the hardened rule is just as good and smooth as my old one. On difference to note was that the Starrett name and insignia is no longer stamped into the tool. A little disappointing, but nothing to get my panties in a bunch over.

I've seen the PEC stuff for sale, and noted that it was an American company. Glad to hear that they are making a good tool.

Good quality Starrett stuff in older form is still pretty easy to find for a fraction of the new price on the auction site, and I see them on Clist frequently, too.

[Chuck Hart]

I have had my PEC combo for quire awhile it is dead on. It is heavy and like any good square all the parts are heavy duty. One of my complaints on older squares has been the cheap springs used to adjust the rule. The PEC is solid. You won't go wrong saving a few bucks on the PEC product. Some people buy the most expensive because they think it has to be the best. I really like my PEC combo.

[Winton Applegate]

Ian,
Thanks for taking all the time to do that.
Old Mitutoyo that I have : I'm liking the prices I am seeing ~ $300 to ~$500 plus. I really have something great I guess.
I have the protractor and that is the reason I bought that set back in the day. It is totally tight and first rate ! Love it.
So sorry you had such a bad time with yours. Welcome to the dark ages. :o

[ian maybury]

Sounds like you made a good call on the old one. With a bit of luck/if my guesses are correct they may just have changed their minds about walking with the dark side...

[John Sanford]

If you happen to live close to a source that will accept returns 'in the event of' and not result in restocking or return shipping charges then maybe it's worth trying for a decent example of a lower cost square, but i've no idea where the high profile US mag that ran the above review of squares got its product from because they didn't get a single bum example across heaven knows how many brands. No doubt they would say i was unlucky. Nah, you weren't unlucky. One of those twit Brits is in charge of allocating combination squares to Ireland. He makes sure that all of the returns get sent your way. :eek: ;)


Definitely a case of getting what you pay for in my view….
yup. It's a shame that there seem to be so few company's making top quality combination squares today. And it's always seemed odd to me that the only brands we ever hear about are Starrett, Brown & Sharpe, and Mituyo. Are there no German, Swiss, or other European makers of these fine tools?

[ian maybury]

As it happened John the squares came from a UK supplier - fortunately they were very straight up about refunds and replacements. The higher end stuff tends not to be stocked over here, or to be UK prices +25/30% if somebody local happens to bring some in.

There were quite a few Euro makers of good stuff, but most if not all seem to have faded off the market in the face of low cost competition. There's a few using brand names that suggest European origin, but it seems more likely that they are subcontracted from the East.

I think the problem with combination squares is that the vast majority on the market are made to be cheap, or in most cases scarily cheap. The Mitutoyos, Brown and Sharpes, Starretts and the like of this world are doing an important job by hanging in there trying to run with a properly engineered quality product at a less than impossible price. (there's a big difference between a hardened, ground and highly accurate product and an aluminium die casting as is the norm on the cheapies)

That's why i very much hope that the above is genuinely an indication that Mitutoyo has gone back upmarket again in terms of their quality, and that it works for them...

[george wilson]

Brown & Sharpe tools are not really made by that company any more. They are made by a variety of companies here and there,some in France.

[Daniel Rode]

I have a 12" Starrett combination square that I bought 10+ year ago. It's a joy to use; smooth, accurate, easy to read. I also have a 4" Starrett double square. I use it all the time. It's accurate and easy to read, but it's not nearly as smooth as the 12". In fact, even though it's a oft used and trusted tool, it's a bit of a disappointment considering what I paid for it.

I have a cheapo Johnson 6" square that is accurate but not smooth and the embossed marking are hard to read. Despite the handy size, it never gets used.

I need a quality 6" combination and I've been considering going PEC. Seems to be solid quality and they cost 1/3 less than the Starretts.

[John Sanford]

Brown & Sharpe tools are not really made by that company any more. They are made by a variety of companies here and there,some in France.

I thought there was something like that going on with them, as they're rarely mentioned anymore as a NEW source for top line stuff. Outsourcing a premium product rarely helps one's brand image.

[george wilson]

I'm not saying their tools aren't good. Just that B&S ceased to be an actual manufacturer some time ago.

[ian maybury]

Pardon me on the B&S manufacturing, we don't seem to get them over here but i'd presumed they were high end...

[Ryan Baker]

The Brown & Sharpe stuff I have gotten recently has been pretty poor ... no better than the average Chinese import. They are not what they used to be.

I have some PEC stuff and it is quite good. For woodworking, you will never know the difference anyway. I really hate combination squares -- even Starrett -- and avoid using them as much as possible. There's almost always something more accurate and less of a pain to use. But I know I am in the minority on that. Anyway, no reason to avoid PEC tools -- they will do the job just fine.

[Winton Applegate]

4" Starrett double square . . . not nearly as smooth as the 12".

Take it apart like in my photo and take a pocket hone to it or an extra fine diamond paddle.
Mostly on the hook.
Smooth and slightly round the burred or sharp edges.
Maybe a bit of paste wax very sparingly.

Mine's great now.

[Daniel Rode]

Thanks Winton. I'll give it a try.

Take it apart like in my photo and take a pocket hone to it or an extra fine diamond paddle.
Mostly on the hook.
Smooth and slightly round the burred or sharp edges.
Maybe a bit of paste wax very sparingly.

Mine's great now.

[John Sanford]

Thanks Winton. I'll give it a try.

Daniel, be sure to check back in with the results.

[Robert Rada]

If you're buying new, I wouldn't recommend settling for less than PEC and I would recommend Starrett as my first choice.
Starrett has a much better spring and locking mechanism. The cast iron head comes with a "black wrinkle" finish that I find to feel more tactile. I'd say the Starrett is better in other regards, but that comes with the caveat of the ruler and machined portions of the head being noticeably sharp to the touch.

I should point out that if a combination square says "Made in the USA" and it is not made by Starrett it is most likely (or most definitely?) made by PEC. Here in the states, I believe that would include some of Lee Valley and Woodcraft's private label offerings. Mitutoyo is another OEM client. I haven't tried all of their manufactured output, it's possible other brands have either higher or lower specs. The examples I've handled were virtually identical.

If you do shell out for Starrett without trying other combination squares, you'll probably be underwhelmed.
If you try other combination squares, beforehand, the quality difference becomes more apparent.


Without grease, the cheapest squares glide more easily. Nature of the beast.

There will be woodwork forum persons that say the Empire True Blue offering is just as square.
Probably, maybe, but...just...ewww..no.

[Brian Thornock]

I have some tools from Starrett, PEC, and vintage Brown and Sharpe. I have also used Mitutoyo. I like them all. I would say Starrett is top of the heap, but the price jump is a tough pill to swallow. PEC makes nice tools as well, I just prefer the Starrett finish quality a little more, but not when considering the premium. Vintage B&S is good, but my 24" rule is hard to read any more. Mitutoyo is good, but I don't have any. I also have a 6" iGaging double square from woodcraft, and it works quite well, though not up to the smoothness level of the premium brands, but not off by much.

Another manufacturer is SPI, which stands for Swiss Precision Instruments. No idea if they are actually swiss made any more, but they are a brand of good repute in machinist circles. If you are just going combo squares, vintage ones like Millers Falls and Union are options, but squareness is always a consideration when buying from ebay or the like.

[ian maybury]

Hi Brian. Based on experience and i don't want to be too specific on a public forum given that it's a while - but there's one or two well known names in the list there that i ran into trouble a couple of years ago with in the saga described earlier. They back in the day were excellent - but these days are just brands applied to cheap goods sourced from low cost factories.

PEC seems solid judging by reports, and Starrett defintely as of a couple of years ago. Beyond that (and as earlier in the thread there may have been some improvements since) I'd go carefully...

[Brian Thornock]

I definitely prefer (in order): Starrett, PEC, vintage B&S, Mitutoyo, and then iGaging. I didn't put SPI on there as I have not used any of their tools.