Opinion of the Powermatic 3 or 5 hp shaper please

[Dan Chouinard]

I think it may be time to step up from router table to shaper. Primarily will be used for making door parts. Router table has served me well but look forward to using a power feeder. Want to buy new machine. Does powermatic make a good shaper? Should I get 3 or 5 hp?
Thanks

[Paul Incognito]

I have brief experience with the 5hp version. It made short work of the hand rail I was making. Seemed like a nice machine.
There's no comparison to a router table. After the 1st time I made raised panels on my shaper with a feeder I was ready to sell my router table.
Happy New Year!
PI

[ian maybury]

Another here that discovered relatively recently just how easily and cleanly a shaper will strip off material that seems very heavy work with a router table.

My instinct (as a definite non expert) without knowing anything about the specific machines is probably to go for the higher HP - likely to be cheap relative to the extra grunt.

Other considerations might be your wiring or power supply (amp limits), or that the machine is more 3HP than 5HP in terms of its general construction

[Paul Incognito]

I'm with you, Ian. Generally the extra horses are cheap.

You bring up another good point in the power supply, a 3hp motor can be run off a 20a circuit, while a 5hp needs 30a.

PI

[Mike Cutler]

Dan

Is this a shaper to be used for a business, or for home projects and maybe a little work for good friends. If the former, I'd go for a 5HP. If the latter, I'd go for the 3HP and put the $$$$ difference toward a power feeder and, or, the cutters you're going to need. I am absolutely certain that Powermatic makes a nice machine, that will do everything you would ask of it.

I just bought a 3HP Delta Shaper, 1988 vintage. For a guy working alone in his garage, it's way more than enough.

[Dan Chouinard]

Mike,
one man custom cabinet shop. Six years of steady work. Countless doors have been made with router table. Shoulders look forward to assistance.
thx for the feedback

[Mark Bolton]

If your talking cabinet doors and your on a limited budget Id say you could get by with the 3HP because your going to need a hefty amount to put towards a feeder, tooling, and if your making doors one of the highest things on the list in my opinion should be a DRO that reads to three decimal places. That means not one of the cheap wixeys. The DRO in general is a major time saver but for doors and a single shaper they really speed up the process. The accessories and tooling will dwarf the cost of the shaper in a blink.

[Don Jarvie]

Powermatic makes nice products. Since this is how you make your living get the 5hp and write it off. Even though your a one man shop it's no excuse not to have quality reliable tools.

[Justin Ludwig]

Mike,
one man custom cabinet shop. Six years of steady work. Countless doors have been made with router table. Shoulders look forward to assistance.
thx for the feedback

Don't buy smaller than a 5hp. I tried the 3hp route (pun?) and it wasn't worth it IMO. Once you make doors with a power feeder on a 5hp machine, you'll kick yourself for the last 5years of using a router. I made one set of doors with a router when I started my shop and that was enough for me. You'll need at least a 1hp power feeder if you're doing a lot of raised panels.

[Mark Bolton]

Whats your total budget for the package? Just my $0.02 but I woulndt ever pay the premium for the PM shaper if your going to stay in the import catagory. A shaper is a pretty basic tool and while the PM may have a few perks they really arent worth it in the import machine class. No idea but usually when people realize they will spend perhaps another grand on a feeder, easily a grand or more for a decent set of tooling for door making, and then $300 or so for a DRO if you opt for one, the cost of the machine starts to be looked at a little differently.

[Rod Sheridan]

I think it may be time to step up from router table to shaper. Primarily will be used for making door parts. Router table has served me well but look forward to using a power feeder. Want to buy new machine. Does powermatic make a good shaper? Should I get 3 or 5 hp?
Thanks

Dan, since it's a shop I would suggest a Euro shaper with a sliding table, wonderful for tenons or cope cuts, and a tilting spindle gives you great flexibility with respect to saving money on tooling.

I wouldn't reccommend the Powermatic, there are many more modern machines with much better spindles, fences, tables, guards etc. The NA machines really are decades out of date..........Rod.

P.S. I've had a shaper for 30 years in a hobby shop, don't own a router, I use the shaper and feeder a lot, it's a Hammer B3 Winner with outrigger.

Here's a link to a post of mine regarding making tenons on a shaper
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?210585-Making-Tenons-on-the-Shaper&highlight=making+tenons+on+a+shaper

[David Kumm]

If making a living with the machine, i'd do a little homework and rather than focus on hp, look at the quill assembly and spindle design of various machines. The long term performance and benefit of a shaper comes from the build of the quill and the ease of adjustment and quality of fence. With only one machine, changeover time is critical so a machine that sets up easily is huge. I've also seen shops use two lesser machines and set up the cope and stick cuts separately. Which ever way you decide, it is worth your time to understand what makes a good shaper a good value. Dave

[Larry Edgerton]

If making a living with the machine, i'd do a little homework and rather than focus on hp, look at the quill assembly and spindle design of various machines. The long term performance and benefit of a shaper comes from the build of the quill and the ease of adjustment and quality of fence. With only one machine, changeover time is critical so a machine that sets up easily is huge. I've also seen shops use two lesser machines and set up the cope and stick cuts separately. Which ever way you decide, it is worth your time to understand what makes a good shaper a good value. Dave

What he said.........

Having recently switched from a Minimax to an obscure heavy weight industrial, I would do some research like David suggests and look around on the used market. I switched from a Powermatic 26 to the Minimax and was very pleased, and switching to the Unitronix I have now was a revelation. Size matters. Ironically the Unitronix was the cheapest shaper I have bought.

[Peter Quinn]

I don't own one, I looked at them pretty close a few years back, was planning to buy one when a used minimax popped up in my area real cheap, so I went that direction. I think the PM2700 is a pretty solid offering in the "basic" small commercial size range. The fence is good, it has some nice features like built in mobility, built in digital height gauge, aluminum fence plates with hold down accommodations. Its an update to their PM27 line which I have used quite a bit. The 27 is a good solid work horse for a lot of small shops, no frills machine that works well for cabinet doors and light molding work. They didn't always age well, I used a few beat up varieties that had developed out of parallel issue with the fences, or some chatter as the bearings wore from use at or beyond intended capacity, or slop in the height mechanism from who knows what that makes precise height adjustments more challenging. I've also used a nearly 20 year old PM27 in another guys mostly one man shop and it was kept in such good condition it hardly felt like the others I had used, real tight and precise.

Honestly, I think the decision to go with a shaper and feeder is ultimately more important than which shaper you choose. The tooling is probably the more important decision. Relative to your current indicated use, 5pc cabinet doors, almost any shaper 3HP and above is capable of delivering a decent performance. I prefer 5HP for the marginal added cost, easier at resale, and this is America where bigger is always better right!:rolleyes: You may appreciate the extra power if you ever get into passage sized doors or molding work. For me it comes down to ease of use which is largely related to the fence. You don't make money fussing with a set up, you make money pushing wood through, so you want the set up time minimized. I'd look for precise tool less fence and hood adjustments, easy speed adjustments (if that is something you actually require), ease of spindle change. These are the places the cheap imports really fall apart. I've used a few at work that I wont name here, the fences are abysmal, the speed changes are absurd, changing a spindle takes an act of congress and some bandaids. The PM2700 has solved all these issues. The spindle change issue is a non event in many cases, I've seen shapers never get changed from 1 1/4". But sometimes in the small shop you go 3/4" bore to save some valuable funds, especially at the start, lots of guys evolve away from the 3/4" size once you learn how much smoother the bigger diameter cuts, others are very content with 3/4" bore. So its a personal decision, if you need different spindles, they should be easy to swap. The one issue they haven't solved is spindle speeds...the 2700 has only two speeds, 7500 and 10K, and thats pretty fast for a molding head or a big panel raiser. They should have put something in the 6K rpm range at least, so thats a draw back and a limitation if you get into bigger cutters, like over 5 1/2" diameter.

If you are going to spend close to $4K plus feeder on this purchase its probably a good idea to check out your options. That puts some more industrial used machines in range, not a choice for everybody, but definitely worth consideration. Most value priced used industrial tools require at least some work, cleaning or tuning. You trade sweet and time for lower cost. You sort of have to predict the future, will your range of work grow over time? Could you use a tilting spindle or is that a waste of your money? Will you use a sliding table, or is that a waste of space? Rod suggested the fully equipped modern euro shapers, I really like the versatility they offer but don't consider those options to be essential or their purchase a forgone conclusion for every wood worker. Sometimes a good basic shaper that spins a cutter is just as much as you need. I have a small slider on my minimax, it never gets used for cabinet doors, but for lots of other things I do it has proven invaluable. I can think of a few cases where a tilting spindle would have been a great help....but for basic cabinet work? You might actually forget its there. Before you make the purchase you might want to reach out to some professionals in your area and check out their set ups, maybe even find somebody with a PM2700 and see it run, at least go to see one in person at a vendor if possible, check out other options too. Hammer, laguna, jet, minimax, used industrial, etc.

[David Kumm]

Larry's Unitronix is also a two spindle machine. They show up for a decent price and if you have the room you can get two machines for less than the price of one new PM. Way heavier build too. Dave

[Dan Chouinard]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies guys. Dont have time or desire to find used machine. Euro tilting sliding shapers too costly. Shop space an issue in general. Integrated castors very desirable. A write off was needed. 5hp PM 2700 was purchased online last night just before deadline from Woodcraft.

[David Kumm]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies guys. Dont have time or desire to find used machine. Euro tilting sliding shapers too costly. Shop space an issue in general. Integrated castors very desirable. A write off was needed. 5hp PM 2700 was purchased online last night just before deadline from Woodcraft.

Technically the machine needs to be delivered and set up for the 179 deduction to be taken but tell us how you like it and how it performs. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

Enjoy that and work safe. If you are new to shaping please do ask as many questions as necessary. There is a real potential for danger with that much power and such large cutters in play if used incorrectly. Should serve you well!

[Mark Bolton]

I am of a different mindset on the shaper issue in that if your a small shop making mostly cabinet doors and small mouldings (not me thankfully) the imports can be a very cost effective small footprint option though they are most definitely disposable. That said, you have to buy them used, and cheap. For me personally if my options were to have three or four small (3-5hp taiwan/china) shapers or a single euro shaper and invest in multiple spindles, RPC, and so on, I would take the multiple shapers any day for the work I do. Cabinet doors don't demand a massive shaper and even while its an heirloom investment in a shop that is working for profit the bottom line is what matters. Having 3-4 dedicated shapers even with the larger footprint overall would, to me, be a better investment. Heck, a spindle for a euro can cost more than a good deal on a used hong kong phooey. Is the quality of cut the same? No. Cutter capacity? No. But if your making cabinet doors and under it makes sense to look into multiples and smaller machines that can be left in a dedicated setup with one or two open for odd runs.

I have no idea but Im guessing the OP isnt making 50 doors a week.

As I said in my other post I would never pay the premium for the PM and the write-off in no way makes it free. Buying under pressure like that is always sketchy in my opinion but its water under the bridge at this point and it sure is a pretty machine to look at.

[Mike Heidrick]

Weaver makes a business of offering quality machines with the multiple dedicated machine mentality. A difference they offer is the size tables and the steel accessories to truely dedicate their shapers to a purpose.

[Jeff Duncan]

OK Late to the party but the other guys have covered a lot of it. You should be fine with the Powermatic for a while, they're nice smaller sized machines a little easier to learn on. In reality the difference between the 3 and 5 is minimal in this case as the quill bearings in that machine are much too small to really allow you to take advantage of the 5 horses anyway. My personal recommendation is to forget about buying anything smaller than 1-1/4" cutters. Having multiple sized cutters is just not worth the hassle. Plus if/when you outgrow this machine you don't want to mess around with small cutters on a larger machine. Other than that, enjoy your new toy and hopefully you get some decent use out of it.

good luck,
JeffD

[Mark Bolton]

Weaver makes a business of offering quality machines with the multiple dedicated machine mentality. A difference they offer is the size tables and the steel accessories to truely dedicate their shapers to a purpose.

Without a doubt, its a great package offering, but at that its a pricey package offering (hence my statement about the quantity of doors per week or per month). As with any of these considerations it all boils down to what are your business needs. A small shop making a kitchen a month or a kitchen every 2-3 months, with mixed other work, is not going to profit from the investment in a new Weaver system. My shop wouldnt by any means. I just dont make enough doors to make that dedicated machinery profitable.

A series of small shapers serves me well in that I can de-tool them from cabinet doors when the need arises and my shop built fixtures didnt cost me 2K for a weaver coping sled. When I go in to a big batch of doors I sure think it would be nice but when its hanging on the wall Im thankfull I have the cash in the bank. If I grew to a bit more doors monthly it'd be a no brainer.

[Dan Chouinard]

There is no room in my 21' x 27' shop for multiple shapers. The original question was intended to determine if the PM shaper was a decent machine or a 650 lb hunk of crap.
No one has called it crap. This is comforting. And the difference between 3 and 5 horses was $200, not enough to even think about.
The inherent danger in shaper use is a real concern for me. The local cabinetmaker that has been at it since the early 70's lost an entire finger about 5 years ago to one of his shapers. That was a bit sobering (His only advice concerning a shaper purchase was 1 1/4" spindle and dont bother with 3 horse, get at least 5). I want to know everything there is to know about shaper safety practices before I think about plugging it in. Any feedback in this regard would be greatly appreciated.

[David Kumm]

Get a powerfeeder. Shapers shouldn't be sold without them. Dave

[ian maybury]

Shapers are quite tough in my (early stages) experience to get a good handle on from books. This is often quoted as the best available (UK originating) safe/good practice guide: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spindle-Moulder-Handbook-E-Stephenson/dp/0854420312

In reality it seems very much as though there's a few situations where the risk is quite subtle - stuff like working off ring fences, tenoning and the like. Meaning that there's little substitute for at minimum gaining a good intuitive understanding of what's going on in terms of forces etc in a given situation, and ideally for getting good hands on instruction from an experienced, safe and clear thinking user. Many may be experienced, but don't necessarily fall into both of the latter categories.

One basic issue is that there's a gazillion safety devices out there, but it isn't always clear what to buy when on a limited budget and with limited experience....

[Peter Quinn]

There is no room in my 21' x 27' shop for multiple shapers. The original question was intended to determine if the PM shaper was a decent machine or a 650 lb hunk of crap.
No one has called it crap. This is comforting. And the difference between 3 and 5 horses was $200, not enough to even think about.
The inherent danger in shaper use is a real concern for me. The local cabinetmaker that has been at it since the early 70's lost an entire finger about 5 years ago to one of his shapers. That was a bit sobering (His only advice concerning a shaper purchase was 1 1/4" spindle and dont bother with 3 horse, get at least 5). I want to know everything there is to know about shaper safety practices before I think about plugging it in. Any feedback in this regard would be greatly appreciated.


Always kill power to the machine physically before changing cutters. This can mean a drum switch, a knife switch, unplugging it...do not trust a magnetic starter. This is basic for any machine, but for a shaper there is a lot of cutter in play, don't want any accidental starts. Manual disconnect. Always check all setups at least twice before pressing go. Are fences aligned properly? Spin the spindle...does it spin free, is there enough clearance between it and the fences and hood? Shaper fences can be split to work like a jointer unlike most router tables that simply don't have the power to take a full height pass plus a 1/16" of extra material. The jointing pass is part of what makes a shaper a better tool than a router. You have to make sure the out feed fence will allow the work to pass, that its set parallel to the minor diameter of the cut. You don't want a workpiece particularly with a feeder pushing it hanging up on the out feed fence and getting turned sideways and pushed into the opening. DAMHIK!

Always minimize the opening between fences, keeps weird stuff from happening as much as possible. Always make sure you understand what direction your cutter is spinning, what direction your work is moving, and what is controlling the stock. In a normal counter rotation cut (cutter and work are moving in opposite directions) its very much like a router table. But a shaper with feeder is capable of being reversed, cutter can be reversed and you can run the cutter and work in the same direction...or climb cut. Its the same principle as the baseball pitching machine.....so don't do it if you don't understand it and don't ever do it free hand. I always jog my cutter on and off quickly to assure that I have in fact tightened it securely and that it is spinning in the direction I intended.

I like to use a feeder for every operation where it is feasible. This includes pattern shaping curves when possible.

When doing end grain work make certain your work cannot get sucked into the fence opening. With a router its rather fool proof...there is a bearing, the opening is small relative to most rails, hard to miss. With a shaper spinning a 4-5" cutter, you could easily do it wrong and suck in a narrow rail. So don't. Lots of ways to handle this...coping sleds, continuous fence, Aigner fence, bearings in the stack just like a router or a solid rub collar, clamp the work to a t square. What you choose is up to you, as a shaper operator a lot more of the particulars of a given set up are on you. So take a close look at each new set up and think about what path the stock will take, think about where your hands are relative to the cutters, think about the force applied by those cutters (out and backwards in a normal counter rotation cut) and how you intend to resist them. Never hand feed small parts, you cannot resist the power of a shaper like you might a router, it can suck work in and your hands with it. Work carefully and respect the basic rules and the shaper is a safe tool to use, possibly your best weapon. It can accurately dimension FF parts and leave finished edges, make doors, moldings, pattern shaping, rabbits, dados, tenons, etc. With a little thought and practice a single shaper can crank out 5 piece doors in a small shop withe relative ease. Spend time on careful set ups the first time, make gauge blocks and set up aids to get back to your settings quickly, buy good cutters of consistent diameter and change over will be a breeze. No reason for a one man shop to blow thousands on a multi shaper set up to make doors.....I did of course, but there was no reason for it!:eek:

[Justin Ludwig]

Read read and read some more on shapers. Watch videos. I'm extremely new to shapers as I've only had one for 1.5 years. As David said, get a power feeder. There's a lot of different methods for using shapers and their fences. The only thing I use my fence system for is dust collection and as a stop or cutting tenons. I reference everything off the miter slot and use outboard fences with a power feeder. Again, it depends on how you intend to use it.

This forum has a TON of great info. Just search.

[Mark Bolton]

The bottom line with safety in what seems like your situation is to allocate another 1200-1400 to a feeder and with a shop made coping sled your hands should be no where near a cutter at any point. Raising narrow panels may be an exception but can still be done safely AND fast (not having to built specific fixtures).

[Mike Cutler]

Dan

Congrat's on your new shaper. I think you're really going to like it.
PowerMatic doesn't make "hunks of crap". They never have. A lot of folks are put off by the initial price, but to each their own. They're quality machines.
The power feeder will be necessary for production. It makes everything smoother and easier, and of course safer. If you've been running your stock through a router table, you shouldn't have much trouble coming up to speed with a shaper.
It's a machine that can intimidate people. There's a lot of spinning metal exposed. Treat it with respect,keep your hands out of the area of the cutter head, and you should be on your way.
After not having run a shaper for many, many years, when I fired up the one I bought recently, I remembered why I always liked them. Personally, I think they're safer than router tables.

[Rob Damon]

Shaper cutters are expensive, so when I got my PM2700, I also ordered the 1/2" router bit spindle for it. That way I can still use some of the larger unique router bits on it on the single/small projects.

[Rod Sheridan]

There is no room in my 21' x 27' shop for multiple shapers. The original question was intended to determine if the PM shaper was a decent machine or a 650 lb hunk of crap.
No one has called it crap. This is comforting. And the difference between 3 and 5 horses was $200, not enough to even think about.
The inherent danger in shaper use is a real concern for me. The local cabinetmaker that has been at it since the early 70's lost an entire finger about 5 years ago to one of his shapers. That was a bit sobering (His only advice concerning a shaper purchase was 1 1/4" spindle and dont bother with 3 horse, get at least 5). I want to know everything there is to know about shaper safety practices before I think about plugging it in. Any feedback in this regard would be greatly appreciated.

Hi, safety is important.

The only up to date book I've found on shapers is

The Spindle Molder Handbookhttp://www.amazon.ca/Spindle-Moulder-Handbook-Eric-Stephenson/dp/0854421505

The other books I've purchased have been decades out of date on cutters and machine safety issues.

Regards, Rod.


The only up to date book on s

[Jim Hager]

Congratulations on your first shaper, you will love it. I too started out using a rt to build doors and when I bought my first shaper I really learned what they were all about. I now own 5 each dedicated to an individual purpose. Three of them are imports, one a Grizzly and a Reliant, the other an Enlon with a sliding table. The other 2 are Delta's. I raise panels and do stick on the deltas with the Enlon doing my cope cut, the Reliant doing the door edge after assembly and the Grizzly doing the trim cut to make arched panels. I have three of them equipped with power feeders for making stick, door edges and panels. The other two are hand fed. A 3hp has plenty of power for running door parts using the Freeborn 3/4" bore cutters. I've made thousands of doors now with those cutters and have never had any problems with power. My advice on cutters is get good ones. I've bought cheaper stuff than I use and they just don't do the job. Freeborn is a great place to look for cutters, they have the larger bore cutters that I'd love to have if I had large spindles for all my shapers. The larger the tool diameter the better the cut will be.

As far as safety goes, RESPECT the shaper. Learn it's functions and follow established practices. Any time you do any freehand shaping be certain to use the starter pin. I have one of mine set up to do pattern shaping and it does have a starter in that never leaves the table. It does not have a fence attached but I do have dust collection rigged up. If you are running only one shaper be very mindful of the direction the cutter has to turn and the direction the material has to be fed. The shaper will snatch a piece out of your hand in an instant if climb fed. If you have the means I'd highly suggest a power feeder. I use the Delta 1/4 hp feeder and some I have are Grizzly. I see no difference in the two brands other than color. When you can use a feeder, please do. Running stick, door edges and square raised panels are all operations that you can use a feeder. Making cope cuts should be done with a sled. Either make or purchase one. My enlon shaper has a sliding table to run cope so I don't use a sled but have in the past. I'd recommend looking at some of the Weaver fixtures for making doors and see if there are some things there you can fit into the budget. While there look at their fixture for making door arches and panels. They are a very necessary part of my methods of making doors. Weaver sells the shapers too but they also provide lots of handy dodads for making doors besides the shaper. You'll also want to get a good collection of follower bearings for doing pattern shaping. Pretty much one for every cutter diameter you have. Also pick up a supply of thin shims for setting the height on your cope and stick cutters. A large key to a good shaper is the fence. My delta shapers have a great fence. Easy to adjust in almost every way. Import shapers have notoriously poor fences, it's good you ordered the PM. I've never used a pm shaper so I don't really know about it's fence.

Good luck to you. Man it's been a long time since I've posted anything on the Creek. I read a bit everyday but seldom post anything. Maybe some of this will help.

[Dan Chouinard]

Being able to use a feeder was the main reason i wanted a shaper. I am 52. Have had nerve injuries in left hand, tennis elbow on left, nerve damage with muscle atrophy in right shoulder. Oh, and the carpal tunnel on both wrist. The right shoulder gives me the most trouble as it fatigues very quickly. I can still crank out door parts with my jessum router table. Made parts for and glued up 18 doors and drawer fronts in 8 hrs recently. I was happy with that. Look forward to letting the feeder push stiles thru the machine however.
Thanks for the safety feedback guys, especially Peter. Never liked cutting narrow rails. Shop made sled with toggle clamps served well until I learned to keep rails 5 1/2" wide and then rip in half on table saw after the ends where cut. Quicker and safer.
Any other thumbs up for the book Rod recommended?

[Justin Ludwig]

I read Lonnie's Shaper handbook. It was dismal at best IMO. While in the hospital with our newborn daughter in November, I read "Shaper Handbook" (http://www.amazon.com/Shaper-Handbook-Roger-W-Cliffe/dp/0941936694). It was a lot better, but provided no revelations for my current understanding of wood work in general. I haven't read the book Rod mentioned.

Biggest mistake I've made with my shaper was buying too small a power feeder (and a grizzly power feeder), and not following Peter's advice of double checking everything before hitting the "on" switch. Want to see a grown man's butt pucker? Feed a stile into a power feeder with a 4" cutter spinning at 8k and see the power feeder move because I didn't tighten the horizontal swivel. I got lucky it hit the fence before the brand new Freeborn cutter.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

+1 for Rod's book recommendation.

[Michael W. Clark]

Congratulations Dan,
I'm a hobbyist, but got a 5hp Delta with 1-1/4" spindle, used. I got frustrated with the router table for door panels. I kept starting and stopping and you could see the ripples after the finish went on.
I wanted the 1-1/4" spindle so all my cutters would work if I ever got a larger shaper. I bought a 1HP Univer feeder off Ebay. That thing is a beast! I have it mounted on the little Delta and it looks like the feeder dwarfs it! Your PM is a larger top, so that size feeder may look more at home. I will say that it locks very securely. I can lock it, then cannot budge it.

I would be interested to know what you end up with on rail and stile cutters. I have some panel cutters that came with the shaper, but I need look at rail and stile cutters when the next project comes up.

Mike

[Randy Henry]

Dan, I have the PM-2700. Been a very good machine for me. Only issue I had, was the set screw on the motor pulley came out twice. I would suggest taking it out, and putting blue lock-tite on it before using it. Really easy to get to, and just insurance for later. The Weaver tools/jigs are fine, but I use the Weaver knock off jigs from Ballew Saw and Tool in Springfield, MO. The coping jig, and the self centering jigs/templates that you see on the Weaver site, you can get at Ballew for a lot cheaper, and just as good in quality. I have t-tracks with scales mounted on each end of the shaper, which my outboard fence goes into. This works great when cutting the profiles, and with the built in tape measure, it sets up fast. With the digital readout on the shaper, I always use the same set-up with the spacers, and keep the sample pieces, with the scale setting wrote on them. To achieve this repeatedly, always take the spindle all the way down, reset the reading to "0", then crank it up to the desired reading. It isn't as fast as having dedicated machines, but I can re-tool the shaper and go between cuts pretty fast. I also have the 4 wheel PM power feed. It is invaluable for the shaper. Shapers shouldn't be sold without them. Since I climb cut on some cuts, and to prevent me from accidentally putting a piece of wood in from the wrong way, I religiously put the forward/reverse switch in the "Neutral" position after each cut operation. It makes me think it out before hitting the on switch. As far as cutters, almost all my cutters are Freeborn or Byrd. I haven't ventured into the insert cutters yet. All of my regular cutters are still in good shape, so it will be a while before I replace them. When I do, I will look at the inserts. Lots of good information here about them. Lastly, about the only time the shaper has issues, is when I forget to wax the table. Things will go south for you if you don't keep it waxed, I know this from experience...

[Dan Chouinard]

I clearly have plenty of homework to do in regards to the shaper. Climb cut? gotta look that up. What is the purpose of reversing the motor? And so on....

Will be buying the optional 1/2" router bit collet to get started with the door making sets that I already own.

[Mark Bolton]

I clearly have plenty of homework to do in regards to the shaper. Climb cut? gotta look that up. What is the purpose of reversing the motor? And so on....

Will be buying the optional 1/2" router bit collet to get started with the door making sets that I already own.

Climb cutting is basically feeding in "the wrong" direction which can really help with stubborn tearout in some woods and with small cutters. It think you will want to keep your router table handy because you will likely be very very disappointed in the your router bits performance in the shaper. The speeds are just too low.

[Justin Ludwig]

Ask ask and ask some more. Randy is right about calling Ballew Saw and Tool in Springfield. Ask for Jack. Their jigs are half the cost of the weaver. I build my own basing my designs off of Weaver and the Door Store. You can't find Ballew's jigs online unless you download their catalog. http://www.ballewsawandtool.com/catalog/ is the Parent directory to the catalogs of everything they sell.

If you want information from the horse's mouth on cutters, call Doyle at Freeborn or email their "sales" address. Extremely helpful.

Search door posts on hear made by JR Rutter. Or shoot him a PM. He's an extremely helpful and knowledgeable fellow. I developed all my set ups base off of posts I've read in this forum. From there, I tweak to my own use.

[Randy Henry]

I clearly have plenty of homework to do in regards to the shaper. Climb cut? gotta look that up. What is the purpose of reversing the motor? And so on....

Will be buying the optional 1/2" router bit collet to get started with the door making sets that I already own.

On reversing the motor, it's as Justin said, plus, when I bought my panel cutters, I just bought the standard one, where orientation is good side up (wood), and feed right to left. But I like running good side down, to keep the reveal the same, so that means I had to turn the cutters upside down, which means the cutter needs to be spun in reverse. With all that, it's easy to forget, so I just put it in neutral, so I have to think about it before turning it on.

[Randy Henry]

Dan, here are a few pics.

The coping jig from Ballew, and you will see the reference block attached to the fence. That is where I butt my piece to before I run it through.

The outboard fence is a piece of flat aluminum, 1/4" x 2 1//2". I use it primarily to run the profiles. I rough cut all my rails/stiles to 2-9/16", then set the outboard fence to 2-1/2", and that is my final dimension on the widths of all the stiles and rails.

The auxiliary fence is bolted to the regular fence. I stole this idea from J.R. Rutter. What it does is keep the work piece from getting sucked into the wide opening from the regular fence when using the large panel raising cutter. I just used aluminum angle on the bottom of a piece of oak. There was some time dialing it in to fit between the main cutter and the back cutter, but once it was completed, it works great.


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[Dan Chouinard]

Ahhh, upside down cutters, reverse motor. The tips just keep rolling in. You guys are great.

[Dan Chouinard]

Finally had time to un-crate the shaper yesterday. Holy moses its a beast. Had just knifed the cardboard open when a friend stopped by shop for a visit. I wanted to lighten the machine before trying to move it and he suggested we unbolt and remove table top. Just 6 bolt, great. Removed bolts and attempted to lift top off machine only to discover that internals where also fixed to the top. Aborted that idea, lowered the casters and rolled machine off pallet and down make-shift ramp to shop floor. Easy beans rolling machine to desired location.
My concern is that the failed attempt to remove the top did some sort of damage/misalignment to the internals. Since I am a first time shaper owner not sure if this is a legit concern. What should I look for before proceeding?

[Bill Orbine]

Pretty much everything except electronics is bolted to under the table top. Motor and quill/spindle. You should be OK. At best, when bolting the table back down, align it with the paint lines (if any) that you broke when attempting to remove the top. Finally, you didn't affect the "precision" of the machine like it is with table saws (aligning top slot w/ blade).

[Dan Chouinard]

Thank you Bill. I was surprised to find that the top was not independent. At least one corner had a shim between top and base. That was a surprise as well.

[Mike Schuch]

Now that you have unpacked your shaper the first thing I would do is check the spindle and make sure it is perpendicular to the table! Use a couple nuts to mount a steel ruler to the spindle so the ruler is parallel to the table. Put your dial gauge magnetic base on the ruler so the tip of the dial gauge is touching the table. Sweep the gauge around one entire revolution by hand reading the dial gauge. With the gauge making a 6" circle on the table a .005" variance is a pretty good number to shoot for.

Now that your spindle is perpendicular to the table you can be assured that the profile on the cutter will be the profile you get on your stock.

[Rod Sheridan]

Ahhh, upside down cutters, reverse motor. The tips just keep rolling in. You guys are great.

LOL, you will like your shaper, now you need a 1/2 HP stock feeder and the book I mentioned earlier.

You'll find the shaper is one of the most versatile shop machines, was just using mine last night with the feeder to make rebates............Rod.

[Dan Chouinard]

Thanks Rod for the recommending the spindle moulder handbook. It arrived today and look forward to diving into it. Looks to be chock full of useful info.

[Peter Quinn]

Congrats on the machine. I like the spindle moulder handbook, its a good one. But the Lonnie Byrd book isn't a bad one either. Its full of decent if older ideas for successful and safe shaping. I still use his panel hood design on my minimax for a few panel raisers, dust capture on MDF panels is the best I've seen. The book is full of simple fences and guides you can make as opposed to loads of anodized aluminum treasures you can buy from some European company, but its lessons are not invalid IMO, worth a review considering the meager asking price.

[Mike Heidrick]

True Cabinet saws have everything attached to the base not table.
Id go straight to a 1hp feeder and skip the much lighter weight 1/2hp feeder.
Watch for shims on your table if you remove it.

[David Kumm]

Shapers and table saws both had the guts attached to the base rather than the top until it became cheaper to beef up the top casting and lighten the base. Hanging weight off the top was not the preferred method for the high end stuff. Some shaper bases had a top that secured the quill and the table sat on that top, doubled up. I'd also second the recommendation to go to the 1 hp feeder. That shaper will handle it. Dave

[Dan Chouinard]

I don't own one, I looked at them pretty close a few years back, was planning to buy one when a used minimax popped up in my area real cheap, so I went that direction. I think the PM2700 is a pretty solid offering in the "basic" small commercial size range. The fence is good, it has some nice features like built in mobility, built in digital height gauge, aluminum fence plates with hold down accommodations. Its an update to their PM27 line which I have used quite a bit. The 27 is a good solid work horse for a lot of small shops, no frills machine that works well for cabinet doors and light molding work. They didn't always age well, I used a few beat up varieties that had developed out of parallel issue with the fences, or some chatter as the bearings wore from use at or beyond intended capacity, or slop in the height mechanism from who knows what that makes precise height adjustments more challenging. I've also used a nearly 20 year old PM27 in another guys mostly one man shop and it was kept in such good condition it hardly felt like the others I had used, real tight and precise.

Honestly, I think the decision to go with a shaper and feeder is ultimately more important than which shaper you choose. The tooling is probably the more important decision. Relative to your current indicated use, 5pc cabinet doors, almost any shaper 3HP and above is capable of delivering a decent performance. I prefer 5HP for the marginal added cost, easier at resale, and this is America where bigger is always better right!:rolleyes: You may appreciate the extra power if you ever get into passage sized doors or molding work. For me it comes down to ease of use which is largely related to the fence. You don't make money fussing with a set up, you make money pushing wood through, so you want the set up time minimized. I'd look for precise tool less fence and hood adjustments, easy speed adjustments (if that is something you actually require), ease of spindle change. These are the places the cheap imports really fall apart. I've used a few at work that I wont name here, the fences are abysmal, the speed changes are absurd, changing a spindle takes an act of congress and some bandaids. The PM2700 has solved all these issues. The spindle change issue is a non event in many cases, I've seen shapers never get changed from 1 1/4". But sometimes in the small shop you go 3/4" bore to save some valuable funds, especially at the start, lots of guys evolve away from the 3/4" size once you learn how much smoother the bigger diameter cuts, others are very content with 3/4" bore. So its a personal decision, if you need different spindles, they should be easy to swap. The one issue they haven't solved is spindle speeds...the 2700 has only two speeds, 7500 and 10K, and thats pretty fast for a molding head or a big panel raiser. They should have put something in the 6K rpm range at least, so thats a draw back and a limitation if you get into bigger cutters, like over 5 1/2" diameter.

If you are going to spend close to $4K plus feeder on this purchase its probably a good idea to check out your options. That puts some more industrial used machines in range, not a choice for everybody, but definitely worth consideration. Most value priced used industrial tools require at least some work, cleaning or tuning. You trade sweet and time for lower cost. You sort of have to predict the future, will your range of work grow over time? Could you use a tilting spindle or is that a waste of your money? Will you use a sliding table, or is that a waste of space? Rod suggested the fully equipped modern euro shapers, I really like the versatility they offer but don't consider those options to be essential or their purchase a forgone conclusion for every wood worker. Sometimes a good basic shaper that spins a cutter is just as much as you need. I have a small slider on my minimax, it never gets used for cabinet doors, but for lots of other things I do it has proven invaluable. I can think of a few cases where a tilting spindle would have been a great help....but for basic cabinet work? You might actually forget its there. Before you make the purchase you might want to reach out to some professionals in your area and check out their set ups, maybe even find somebody with a PM2700 and see it run, at least go to see one in person at a vendor if possible, check out other options too. Hammer, laguna, jet, minimax, used industrial, etc.

Fast forward to 2023 and my PM2700 sits in the corner of the shop (different and vastly better shop) and it has never been used. Its shocking to me that I have owned this machine 8 years. Honest truth is that I am intimidated by it. I have continued to use a router table all these years. Recently however I have had to tongue and groove a mountain of oak for a paneling project. That was a workout. I referred to it as the "oak gym". It prompted me to purchase a power feeder as part of a year end buying spree (along with a Lamello Zeta P2). Reading this old thread today and Peters suggestion caught my eye. Find someone with a PM2700 and see it run. I am on the NH seacoast and would travel 100 miles to get a demo from some kind sole.
Thanks and Happy New Year

[Patrick McCarthy]

Dan, my recommendation would be to sign up for the Alpine Technical workshop in Ouray, Colorado, run by Joe "the gentle giant" Calhoon and Greg Godbout (from Rangate). I did it in 2012 when i got a 2700 with power feeder. The knowledge and exposure changed my fear factor into a healthy respect and understanding of how to use it. It is a full 4 day class and you will leave being competent on the shaper. You will be hard pressed to find anyone with more shaper knowledge and experience than Joe, plus he is one of the nicest guys you will ever meet. Greg Godbout lives and breathes shaper tooling; the combination is hard to beat. JMHO, YMMV Patrick

[Dan Chouinard]

Dan, my recommendation would be to sign up for the Alpine Technical workshop in Ouray, Colorado, run by Joe "the gentle giant" Calhoon and Greg Godbout (from Rangate). I did it in 2012 when i got a 2700 with power feeder. The knowledge and exposure changed my fear factor into a healthy respect and understanding of how to use it. It is a full 4 day class and you will leave being competent on the shaper. You will be hard pressed to find anyone with more shaper knowledge and experience than Joe, plus he is one of the nicest guys you will ever meet. Greg Godbout lives and breathes shaper tooling; the combination is hard to beat. JMHO, YMMV Patrick

I like the sound of that Patrick. Perhaps there is even some snow in Colorado. Sure is non here in NH.

[Kevin Jenness]

You can learn what you need about using your shaper without tracking down another owner of that specific model. I'm sure you would be well served by Joe Calhoon's workshop, but there are plenty of resources closer at hand. You must be familiar with some neighboring shops with shapers that would give you the nickel tour. You might try contacting Jeff Duncan through this site.

A worthwhile investment is Stephenson's Spindle Moulder Handbook.​

Judging from your colleague's Instagram and website you shouldn't have any problem stepping up from a router table to a shaper. The principles are the same, it's just a matter of scale (and corresponding cost of tooling), and the capabilities are much increased.

[Dan Chouinard]

You can learn what you need about using your shaper without tracking down another owner of that specific model. I'm sure you would be well served by Joe Calhoon's workshop, but there are plenty of resources closer at hand. You must be familiar with some neighboring shops with shapers that would give you the nickel tour. You might try contacting Jeff Duncan through this site.

A worthwhile investment is Stephenson's Spindle Moulder Handbook.​

Judging from your colleague's Instagram and website you shouldn't have any problem stepping up from a router table to a shaper. The principles are the same, it's just a matter of scale (and corresponding cost of tooling), and the capabilities are much increased.

The owner of neighborhood shop where I worked very briefly a dozen or more years ago is not in good health. Good idea though Kevin. Interesting that you mentioned Jeff. I bought his SCM 50(?) planer a couple years ago when I relocated my shop to Michael's new space. It was very quickly replaced by a 24" Martin that Michael purchased. That SCM planer is up for grabs by the way. Thank you for mentioning Michael's (Graf) instagram and website. All of the cabinetry posted there I made with my router table but the time has come...

[Jared Sankovich]

Are there any other shops around that you are acquainted with? Not sure if you are a member on the FB cabinet industry groups but you could ask if anyone is local.

You must have some serious patience. I think I'd pull my hair out after a week of building doors on a RT.

[Dan Chouinard]

Are there any other shops around that you are acquainted with? Not sure if you are a member on the FB cabinet industry groups but you could ask if anyone is local.

You must have some serious patience. I think I'd pull my hair out after a week of building doors on a RT.

Yes, patience is my greatest asset. I can setup very quickly and get very good results with my router table. But I am playing the long game. My retirement plan is to work until I am dead. Thanks for the heads up on FB cabinet group.

[brent stanley]

Yes, patience is my greatest asset. I can setup very quickly and get very good results with my router table. But I am playing the long game. My retirement plan is to work until I am dead. Thanks for the heads up on FB cabinet group.

Hi Dan you are wise to be wary of any woodworking machine, but the shaper really is the Swiss army knife of the shop, and the time you spend getting comfortable with it, you will never regret.

I have been suggesting the spindle moulder handbook to folks for years, and it's a great way to go if you don't have a mentor. Also make sure you are using chip limiting, low kickback styles of tooling which have been required for commercial shops in Europe for years.

I've sent many folks to Joe's course over the years, but if you can't make it, Roy Sutton's video series is pretty good (though shows outdated tooling) for lower budget operations that haven't invested $20000 in Aigner jigs. A local mentor can be great, but it would be a shame if they used antiquated tooling and techniques and got you off on the wrong foot.

[Kevin Jenness]

I've sent many folks to Joe's course over the years, but if you can't make it, Roy Sutton's video series is pretty good (though shows outdated tooling) for lower budget operations that haven't invested $20000 in Aigner jigs. A local mentor can be great, but it would be a shame if they used antiquated tooling and techniques and got you off on the wrong foot.

I hadn't seen those Sutton videos, but a sneak peek suggests they are a good intro. Thanks for the suggestion. Definitely old school, attaching a breakthrough fence using a "project destroyer", aka Yankee Screwdriver. You are right to advocate caution when choosing a mentor.

[Jared Sankovich]

Hi Dan you are wise to be wary of any woodworking machine, but the shaper really is the Swiss army knife of the shop, and the time you spend getting comfortable with it, you will never regret.

I have been suggesting the spindle moulder handbook to folks for years, and it's a great way to go if you don't have a mentor. Also make sure you are using chip limiting, low kickback styles of tooling which have been required for commercial shops in Europe for years.

I've sent many folks to Joe's course over the years, but if you can't make it, Roy Sutton's video series is pretty good (though shows outdated tooling) for lower budget operations that haven't invested $20000 in Aigner jigs. A local mentor can be great, but it would be a shame if they used antiquated tooling and techniques and got you off on the wrong foot.


Roy's spindle moulder video is great, I don't believe there is a more comprehensive video out there.

I've said this before but this forum has the most shaper specific dialog I've found and I've searched everywhere. Owwm is very close but very different content wise. Beyond that one needs to be searching "spindle moulder, "toupie" or "tischfrase" in euro based forums to find good information. I will say there is enough information available online to become proficient with various techniques and methods (speaking from first hand experience) but it takes a lot of persistentce. Info is limited to bits here and there. You may need to read what someone wrote months (or years) later to fully comprehend what was meant.

[Dan Chouinard]

Hi Dan you are wise to be wary of any woodworking machine, but the shaper really is the Swiss army knife of the shop, and the time you spend getting comfortable with it, you will never regret.

I have been suggesting the spindle moulder handbook to folks for years, and it's a great way to go if you don't have a mentor. Also make sure you are using chip limiting, low kickback styles of tooling which have been required for commercial shops in Europe for years.

I've sent many folks to Joe's course over the years, but if you can't make it, Roy Sutton's video series is pretty good (though shows outdated tooling) for lower budget operations that haven't invested $20000 in Aigner jigs. A local mentor can be great, but it would be a shame if they used antiquated tooling and techniques and got you off on the wrong foot.

Low kickback is music to my ears. Is Rangate tooling something I should investigate? Want to start with Tongue and groove for shaker doors and wall boards that Michaels clients seem to favor over plaster.

Thanks for the feedback!

[Dan Chouinard]

Forgot to mention that I have had Spindle Moulder Handbook for many years just waiting patiently in a drawer. Unfortunately diagrams make my head explode!

[Kevin Jenness]

I will say there is enough information available online to become proficient with various techniques and methods (speaking from first hand experience) but it takes a lot of persistentce. Info is limited to bits here and there. You may need to read what someone wrote months (or years) later to fully comprehend what was meant.

True, but it can be hard to sort out the wheat from the chaff. There's more than enough wrong info online to get into trouble with.

One good point made repeatedly by Roy Sutton is the "cockpit check", checking for free cutter rotation, fence secure, spindle height locked and guards in place. I would add checking spindle rotation direction, spindle speed, hold-downs and fingerboards or powerfeed secure, knives secure in the head, spindle nut tight and no-one in the kickback zone.

At one point a shop I worked in had a rule that shaper setups had to be checked by a second person. This was after the shop owner failed to lock down the knives in a corrugated head and sent one through the wall 30 ft away. There are plenty of potential pitfalls and they can affect more than just the machine operator. Shapers don't have to be dangerous but they do have a lot more variables to keep track of than other common machines.

[Warren Lake]

lots of unsafe on the net on most machines, people who dont know they dont know, just time till they find out but worse is others that will follow them.

[brent stanley]

Roy's spindle moulder video is great, I don't believe there is a more comprehensive video out there.

I've said this before but this forum has the most shaper specific dialog I've found and I've searched everywhere. Owwm is very close but very different content wise. Beyond that one needs to be searching "spindle moulder, "toupie" or "tischfrase" in euro based forums to find good information. I will say there is enough information available online to become proficient with various techniques and methods (speaking from first hand experience) but it takes a lot of persistentce. Info is limited to bits here and there. You may need to read what someone wrote months (or years) later to fully comprehend what was meant.

I agree, all the info is out there but like you say it's pretty inefficient to wander all of the WWW to get it, all the while separating the wheat from the chaff. This forum is great and I'd like to see the S.M. Handbook updated. I think it's a few years old now and some standards have changed a bit I think. I was lucky enough to spend some time with a former instructor in the UK and have a friend who taught at a college who continues to be a great resource for solutions more cost effective than "buy this Aigner jig"! :D

[Jared Sankovich]

True, but it can be hard to sort out the wheat from the chaff. There's more than enough wrong info online to get into trouble with.

.

That is actually easier than it seems. It's pretty evident after a couple hours/days of reading (a single forum) who knows what they are talking about. As an example if you search for shaper threads in this forum (and you read all of them) you start to see who elicits additional responses (positive and negative) It doesn't take long to understand who is speaking from experience. Combine all those disperat bits and you have a general idea who is going to get your fingers mangled, and who isn't.

That said having a mentor or in person instruction would be 1000x (maybe 10,000x) times better/easier.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Hey there Dan, Just adding to the chorus here...I didn’t own a shaper until a few years ago and went through all the online discourses in various places myself to get familiar with shaper stuff. I’m still learning (hopefully we all are...) but my findings have been similar to Jared (and he himself has guided me often with specific questions / operations - thanks Jared)

There are many members here that have loads of shaper experience and typically chime in when the topic comes up. I would love to be able to afford to spend a week at one of Joe’s Alpine Workshops, if for no other reason than to get some quality seat time on such fine machinery. Still saving pennies for that experience.

Head-spinning diagrams aside, the Spindle Moulder Handbook has some great text and photos as well that are worth a million words with this type of stuff. Helped me a lot at the beginning and still now as well.

Aside from the archives of this site (search via Google) there is a good bit of info on the WoodWeb Knowledge archives and forums, though it can be harder to discern who is actually giving out the details and subjects vary. The Canadian Woodworking forum has had some good shaper discussions and insights as well.

T&G and/or shiplap is a good place to start with a shaper operation. Shiplap can be done with a simple rabbeting block and having a power feeder setup for the operation is a good thing too.

T&G would get into more a specific head or knives to do in single passes but certainly better and faster with a shaper and feeder than a router table.

I have not read through this whole thread. Do you have a power feeder and any tooling yet for your machine? What size is your spindle? A lot of it comes down to what you’re actually wanting to produce or do with the machine and then the discussion evolves from there.

Brent Stanley is a great and helpful resource for shaper stuff in general and specifically Whitehill from the UK and has always been immensely helpful with tooling (and other) questions.

So you guys still have the old SCM S50 planer kicking around? I still really enjoy mine and love the machine for what it is.

[Kevin Jenness]

That is actually easier than it seems. It's pretty evident after a couple hours/days of reading (a single forum) who knows what they are talking about. As an example if you search for shaper threads in this forum (and you read all of them) you start to see who elicits additional responses (positive and negative) It doesn't take long to understand who is speaking from experience. Combine all those disperat bits and you have a general idea who is going to get your fingers mangled, and who isn't.

That said having a mentor or in person instruction would be 1000x (maybe 10,000x) times better/easier.

I guess I agree with you in the case of an experienced woodworker, which Dan is. I use the same method to decide whose opinion is worth listening to. Someone who has been doing woodworking for a while, especially in the trade, should know what they don't know. A relative novice is going to have a harder time deciding which authoritative sounding voice is valid, especially looking at Youtube videos. There are a lot of confident wingnuts out there.

[Dan Chouinard]

Hi Philip, thank you for your thoughts. Power feeder is on the way as a year end purchase, as is a Lamello Zeta P2 (looking forward to playing with that). No shaper tooling yet but hope to figure that out soon. The shaper workshop out in Colorado sounds expensive but my feeling is that it would be money very well spent.

[Dan Chouinard]

Good Morning,
I have been out of the shop since the first of May. My first task is to finally get the shaper up and running to make a couple of simple entry doors. We need tooling. I have made a fair bit of true divided lite glass cabinet doors and a few simple entry doors using Freud Window sash stile and rail cutters (99-050 & 99-051) on my router table. For larger shaper cutters I believe 1 1/4 " spindle is the standard recommendation. Does this hold true for smaller profiles such as sash cutters or should I be looking at 3/4" cutters for this project?
Thanks

[Kevin Jenness]

Unless you need a small diameter cutter for very tight curves I would suggest sticking with 1 1/4" bore as a rule. It will save the bother of swapping out spindles. For square edge doors with inserted tenons or dowels an adjustable groover and a matched pair of insert rabbeting heads for stub tenons are a good investment. For cope and stick work look at the Whitehill catalog. Brent Stanley pointed out the versatility of their Euro block cutterheads in a fairly recent thread.

[Dan Chouinard]

I started getting serious yesterday about the possibility of going out to Colorado for the Alpine advanced joinery workshop. All the pieces fell together rather quickly and by the end of the day all arrangements were finalized. I will be attending this September 20-23. Long overdue and really looking forward to the experience and education.
Thanks to all who have offered advice and the heads up on Alpine.

[Kevin Jenness]

Great idea. Joe is very knowledgeable and up to date on machinery and tooling. I'm sure it will be worthwhile, plus it's in a beautiful area.

[Michael Schuch]

For door parts having a sliding table can be kind of a nice feature. Or just make your own sled.

I think pretty much every machine these days are made in the same Chinese factory.