Dust Collector trash bin seporator

[James Nugnes]

Darn....I would like to integrate a smallish bin with in and out line ahead of my dust collector, between it and the tool. I don't want a 30 gal monstrosity taking up room. The darned dust collector already takes up enough room as it is. Have one of those Penn State Industries 1.5 HP Dustroyers with the cylinder top instead of the bag top. The guy at PSI said the best day I would ever have with the bag was the first day of ownership.....all downhill from there. I decided to take his word for it.

I don't want to end up with a bunch of plumbing just to integrate reducers for one of the smaller 2.50" OD pipe trash bin lid adapters designed for this job. What can I use/get away with that gets me down to something smallish in size that still keeps me at 4" hose?

Most of these things are designed for shop vacs but they make more sense on a collector. However, if you are using your collector the right way, a little bin ahead of the collector should not end up with much in it if you are just producing dust (like from a band saw). Seems to me that 30 gal might last a lifetime. Not convinced that I want to give up the space just to have eternal Separation ahead of my Dust Collection. I am not concerned that I would be regularly producing particles that would be an issue for the dust collector. More concerned with the occasional piece of metal that might get sucked up by the system or larger wood chunks from who knows where.

I suppose I could just buy the Rockler plumbing but wondering how small I can go and still make 4" hose work. Could I halve 30 gal? even less? or

I could buy the whole lid with the plumbing integrated (thus just hooking up the 4" hoses one to in and one to out) if I can find a small stout bin that will take what would usually be a bin cover that would be kinda' large in view of its overall size. Usually the dust separator formed plastic lids are 20-21" diameter ala' 30 gal bin size.

[Wade Lippman]

There are hundreds of posts here and elsewhere on separators. Read up on them. You are confused.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Hi, I'm not sure I follow your post or your question... Search for thien separators and cyclones and read lots. Then let us know if you have questions.

[James Nugnes]

I will check to see what I can find. But I am not trying to create a two stage system as much as I am trying to see if it is possible to create a one stage system with some means to keep stuff that gets into the hosing by accident from finding its way to the impeller. Maybe that is just not possible. Maybe you either create a two stage cyclone type system or you don't.

[Mike Chalmers]

I will check to see what I can find. But I am not trying to create a two stage system as much as I am trying to see if it is possible to create a one stage system with some means to keep stuff that gets into the hosing by accident from finding its way to the impeller. Maybe that is just not possible. Maybe you either create a two stage cyclone type system or you don't.

Then you are, by definition, looking to build a two stage system. First stage, a separator. Can range from a Thien separator (cheapest) to a Super Dust Deputy. Second stage, your dust collector.

[James Nugnes]

Bought the hardware to make it a two stage system. There is no middle ground as it turns out but there is the side benefit of not having to empty the bag on the DC if you make it a two stage system. I really did not want to take up the space of the added large bin and the way the PSI Collectors are made now, there is a metal chute from the impeller to the filter and bag, not a hose. You really can't turn the impeller and orient it horizontally without ditching the metal chute and going back to a hose. I am not even sure it can be done without using some other parts not designed for that system. However I would not do it even if it were not hard to do. I don't believe is using hose diameter reduction plumbing on these things either. If they are meant for 4" hose then IMO you should use 4" hose throughout. Might be fine to fool with the diameters on a shop vac, but not a DC. 4" hose pushes you to something like a 30 gal. bin and that is what I was trying to avoid. At least it is not huge....just takes up more room than I really wanted.

The only way to integrate the bin onto a wheeled system without ditching the chute parts that were designed for it would be to increase the size of the base to accommodate the bin.

Might build one of the Thien lids, the one that fits down in the bin if any. I think the baffle is the thing providing most of the Thien benefit. The top hat version is neat but I am not sure the benefit I would get from the top hat version would be worth the dif in work compared to the earlier and simpler version. I do think the top hat version creates some added suction by virtue of that extended inlet port. That is actually probably pretty neat since the standard Thien must rob a little suction from the complete system. However I am not going to run a multi port system with all the air robbing hose and gates that it entails. I will just move the 4" hose from one tool to the next as needed. So the added suction probably does not buy me very much.

[Dennis Aspö]

I'd take a look at this for how to build a thien style baffle separator with a large port:
http://woodgears.ca/dust_collector/cyclone.html

You'll want the separator and collection bucket before the impeller ideally. This'll take up some room unfortunately. Not easy to integrate into the current setup. In your shoes I'd keep the motor and filter and build my own homemade dust collector like in the link above, reusing the motor and filter. But that might be excessive. But the design doesn't lend itself to a separator while remaining small.

[Bruce Wrenn]

When Phil invented his baffle, he did a GREAT SERVICE for all woodworkers. When I invented the "Top Hat" version (google "Another Vote For Phil Thien's Baffle",) it wasn't to improve on Phil's design, but to keep as much bin capacity as possible. I have a cyclone (Wood Magazine) located in right rear corner of shop, but use my planer and jointer on the concrete apron in front of shop. Rather than sending chips to bin in rear of shop, and then having to lug them back to the front, I capture them where they are. I needed all the bin capacity. You could make a "top Hat" to fit a twenty gallon can. That's about as small as you can go using 4" pipe.

[John Donhowe]

If I understand the OP correctly, you're looking for something to prevent something possibly harmful from reaching the DC impeller- such as a metal fastener. If so, the real old school solution is a dust box or drop box- just a box with hose connections in and out. It does nothing more than create a large enough space in the air stream to lower the air speed, letting heavier stuff drop out. It's kind of hard finding designs on the web, since 1) "Dropbox" now has a completely new meaning on the internet; 2) design improvements (e.g. Thien separator), have completely outstripped the old drop box, performance-wise.

If you don't want to go to the trouble of building a Thien separator, look at a Super Dust Deputy. It's intended for a DC, not a shop vac, but you'll need a couple of adapters to match your 4" hose. If you get just the cyclone, you can get whatever size waste container you want. Or, just buy or build a box/can the size you want, attach your hoses to the lid, and be done with it :)

[James Nugnes]

Yup....was initially just looking for an additional safety measure for the DC. Thanks for the suggestions. I think you are right about the Thien having knocked other options out of consideration. Probably why in part you really can't even find them anymore.

The problem with the solutions available now is they requires more room. The PSI, 1.5 HP system does allow you to have a good, one tool at a time dust collection system that will run off 110V. But they no longer offer it with a hose attachment from the impeller up to the inlet for the canister filter/bag. Now it comes with a metal chute which is more efficient and makes your 1.5 HP system even more cost effective. However it takes solutions like we have seen using the HF 2 HP system (running off a 20 amp line) with the impeller turned from vertically oriented to horizontally oriented and a "Thien" bin under the impeller out of the running. Can't do that with the PSI, DC that I have. So that is out.

You could I guess use one of the Super Dust Deputies but you will have to build that into a system and use adapters from your 4" hose. While you would end up with a smaller footprint it ends up looking sort of gimmicky....so much so that Onielda offers a support system of braces to keep the whole contraption together. Plus you are going to have to empty that more often than a Thien built around a 30 gal. bin and you will not pull that apart to empty it as easily as an original Thien on a 30 gal bin. The footprint saved by the Super Dust Deputy is just not worth it when compared to the added functionality and convenience of use inherent to the original (in bin) Thien. You get a system that will protect your baseline DC BETTER than most anything you can think of, you get enough bin so that emptying it as opposed to the bag on your DC is truly a convenience and you have increased the longevity of your DC components probably to forever if you bought a good one. You just have to build the darned thing and deal with the added space it takes as your DC is no bargain space-wise in the first place. If I could just blink my eyes and have the safety mechanism for the DC just appear down there in the hose line somewhere that would probably be worth doing. But since you would have to find plans and then engineer it to the specifics of your DC, it just isn't worth it. So I am back to my earlier comment, its either one stage or two stage with a bin and having gotten that far, probably a Thien. I just wish I could integrate that bin and end up with close to if not the exact footprint on the complete DC on its wheeled base. That would be pretty darned close to perfect for somebody just making dust from one power tool at a time.