Mk.II Honing Guide and Veritas block plane

[Jonathan Gennaro]

Recently decided to buy a block plane. I've always used just the cheap style honing guide that you see most people use. Went to go sharpen the blade of my BRAND NEW BLOCK plane to to realize oh my! it's not gonna fit haha. So I ran down to woodcraft and picked up a mk2 honing guide. I decided to try it out on my #4, and #5 plane first. Worked amazing. Now time for the block plane. For some reason when trying to establish a 25 degree bevel its going kinda on a angle. I finally decided to go all the way and finish it but then when doing a micro bevel its still off. It works, but its driving me crazy. I saw alot of people say to make sure that the blade isn't skewed and I reset it like 5 times. I evenly tightened both knobs. I don't know. Any ideas?
I've attached a pic. Its sharp, and works fine, but still is driving me crazy.
http://i.imgur.com/gDygHyS.png

Maybe I have to square the blade better since the iron has somewhat of a curve to it. But watching a video demo of it on youtube, he didn't have to do any of that, and showed it being used to sharpen the same iron as I have.

[Frederick Skelly]

I sometimes have the same problem, even when the blade is dead square in the jig. A while back, someone posted here saying that it tends to happen when you overtighten the clamping screws that hold the blade. I dont recall why that was, but I find that they were right. If I reduce the clamping pressure and make sure that the screws are about equally tightened on both sides of the blade, it usually solves the problem for me.

YMMV.
Fred

[Fidel Fernandez]

I have the same problem. I will give you an advise, but it will take time. Try free hand!

I have so many issues with the honing guides, the only one that I have found that keeps it square is the Richard Kell. This one has another set of problems, I use it only for narrow chisels where free hand (fat hands) are not that good.

I used a double square against the side of the blade and the "bed" of the honing guide. I found out the honing guide was not square either, so my reference was always off.
I decided to go free hand most of the time.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Jonathan

A couple of observations:

1. You managed to sharpen a #4 and #5 without an issue. That says it is something about the block plane blade.

2. I notice that the block plane blade was first hollow ground. It could be that the sharpening is straight and the grinding is skew! It is possible that the blade is not an even thickness, or the way the blade was ground.

What I think may have occurred is that the hollow is not an even depth along the width of the blade. When honing, more steel is removed from one side compared to the other side, and this causes the bevel to appear as if it was tapered.

Could this be so?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

If you put a square to the edge you will likely see what Derek said is what is happening.

jtk

[Mike Brady]

Since your question is about how to use your guide, I will try to answer it. No. 1 --There is no reason why a cheap eclipse-style guide would not work with that iron. In fact they are ideal for block plane irons. But you asked about the MkII. Looking at your photo. it is apparent that the two bevels are almost opposite of each other in error, so one of them was caused by the iron not being set squarely in the jig. I suspect that it was the micro bevel that is off square since the primary bevel was made at the factory, correct? With the Mk. II, this type of error can be caused by: unequal tension on the iron, or: the iron not being square with the jig. Either condition will cause the iron to make uneven contact with the sharpening media. In this case, the right side of the iron ( the corner of the iron that is under your right fingers when you are holding the jig on the media) is being abraded first.

With the MkII, the nickel-plated index plate that sets the sharpening angle also sets the squareness. This means that there are four thumb screws that must be snug for the jig to be in proper register:
two on the blade clamps; and two on the indexing plate. You also need the jig roller knob to have the arrow pointing downward to get the additional few degrees for the micro bevel. I can tell that you did something wrong in your set-up because the two bevels in your photos have opposite errors when they should have no errors, or at the very least two bevels with the same errors. The blade moved off-square during your setup. Always check your squareness to the indexing plate after everything is tensioned and the remove the plate.

It is definitely possible that the iron moved in the jig during honing. This is a common complaint about this product since it was introduced. Those clamping bar thumb nuts must be evenly tight...and I mean tight! The narrower the blade the more critical this is. Chisels are almost out of the question.

[Robert G Brown]

I assume you have done some research first because you evenly tightened both knobs. That was a mistake I first made. So it is a pretty good bet that you had it centered in the jig. And that you checked it against a square to see if it really is out of square.

I hope someone has an answer. Have had this honing jig for several years and like it. Sharpened many blades (bench & block) with it. No problems until I bought a new Stanley 62. The Stanley 62 blade is the same thickness across. I check for square against the same side it was registered in the jig. It is off. I check for square when it is in the jig before sharpening. I have reground the primary bevel and redone the secondary. It was off. By eye and memory it appeared to be out of square the amount as before.

Any ideas why this blade is different from the others.

I started this when there were no other posts. Did get an idea from the posts to try a different jig. I have a few others.

[Mike Brady]

Does that iron have tapered sides (edges)?

[Tom M King]

Cutting edge looks square to me.

[Shawn Pixley]

It did to me as well (without a square). It looks like the grind was skewed.

[Mike Brady]

That iron does appear to have tapered sides per the Lee Valley catalog listing for their block planes. There is enough straight edge to register it against the MkII's removable angle stop device, but probably not enough to allow it to be squarely into an Eclipse jig. I won't even mention what I think of that design.

To Robert who mentioned above that he some irons that come out fine and then tried another that doesn't, well that has to be one or another of some operator errors. I can't imagine how the wheel and the blade clamp could be co-planar with a 1/8" blade and not so on a 3/16" blade. That thicker blade has somehow become skewed in that blade clamp. Try this put it in the jig as normal. Hone the bevel for a couple dozen strokes and then put the registration guide back on the jig and see if it is still exactly parallel with the side of the iron.

Honestly, though it isn't my go-to honing guide, I think it works well on blades wider than say, 1". Narrower then that,....nada.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Primary bevel is askew. Look at the bottom of the primary bevel and you see where the original bevel has not been honed all the way to the bottom. Now look at the skew of the secondary bevel and it matches that of the primary. The secondary bevel is straight at top, but the primary is skewed, so therefore the secondary is skewed at the bottom to correct for the angled primary bevel. In the end, it will work fine.

Is is there play in the roller when you rock the jig side to side? Mine has a lot of play and I have to be careful to not put too much pressure on one side. It is still my favorite jig so far.

[Jonathan Gennaro]

Thanks, I'll try to reduce the clamping pressure tonight and give it a go!

[Jonathan Gennaro]

You know, I didn't check the thickness of the blade yet. When i get off work I'll check it with some calipers and see..

[Jonathan Gennaro]

http://img-asia.electrocomponents.com/largeimages/R511156-01.jpg

This is the org. guide I had. The block plane blade is way to small for it. It won't hold it. That's why I decided to drop the money on the mk2. Yeah, I really should learn to do it by hand but just haven't yet. Like I said, it worked great on my other two irons, but when it came to the block plane blade it was going all wonky. I'll give it a try again tonight. The night I did it, i think I tried 3 times and everytime it was coming out exactly the same way. I'll also check for thickness of the blade.

[Jonathan Gennaro]

What jig would you recommend? Or would you recommend just doing it by hand? Damn, I wish I didn't spend the money on this jig now. It was only for this block plane blade. My other 15 dollar one has worked flawless since I bought it. I just made a couple stop blocks on a piece of wood and its a two second touch up. :(

[Jonathan Gennaro]

I'll check that when i get home too :)

[Jim Koepke]

I'll also check for thickness of the blade.

Before anything else the squareness of the edge should be checked. If it is square at the edge nothing else matters. If it isn't square then there may be action(s) that need to be taken.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Jonathan,

The image of the blade holder you linked looks like it has two places to hold a blade. The obvious is at the top. The not so obvious is under the lip of the platform for the top position.

Here is an article with a couple of images showing blades held in the lower position:

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/understand_honing_guides

Good luck,

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

Even if the bevel is out of square, I doubt it'd be so far as the honing line suggests. That honing line does not appear to be perpendicular to the sides.

My suspicion is over-tightening. The two screws on the MKII cantilever over the edge of the blade further on your block plane blade than with the wider #4/5 blades. It's therefore easy to torque one side too much so it presses the blade with more force on one side. That's what usually causes the skew for me.

The trick is to tighten each screw a little at a time until they are both just barely snug. Then, when you sharpen, let the stone do the work. Keep your forefingers towards the middle of the blade. There is enough camber to the roller that if you press on one side of the blade, you'll cause the grind to skew. That's by design; you can camber your blades evenly by pressing on the outsides in even succession.

Last, you can do micro adjustments with a tiny mallet. Check your progress and tap the offending corner with the mallet a tad, and you can get to perfect.

That guide is great, but not foolproof...

[Jonathan Gennaro]

Jonathan,

The image of the blade holder you linked looks like it has two places to hold a blade. The obvious is at the top. The not so obvious is under the lip of the platform for the top position.

Here is an article with a couple of images showing blades held in the lower position:

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/understand_honing_guides

Good luck,

jtk

Yeah I know it has two places, but the back of the blade curves in and it will not hold such a tiny blade.

[Jonathan Gennaro]

Alright, I'll give it a try tonight. From everything I read before using it everyone said make sure that things damn tight haha. I'll make it just snug and sharpen it more gracefully.

[Winton Applegate]

When I first looked at your photo of the edge, and before reading Derek’s assessment, I thought the exact same as Derek. I use this guide a ton and on these blades and plane and it is mindlessly easy to get stellar results. No negative aspersions on you . . . after all you got great results on the other blades. My point is that the jig works well.


Be sure to use the cambered roller assembly


C.


Veritas® Camber Roller Assembly
05M09.05

$24.95
















No need for the “and I mean tight”.

I pulled this photo up to post in the scraper thread but am posting it here to show what the jig, the plane and a bit of care can do. Very capable combination.

Planing a finish with no corner gouging or cutting too deep into the finish let alone all the way through the finish is about as good as one would want from a block plane and edge prep as far as edge accuracy and sharpness goes. Held up well taking a heavier cut to put on a hand held edge facet in place of the sharp top edges of the bubbinga table too.

I love the plane, the blade and the jig !

[Tom M King]

I keep the camber roller on mine all the time. Either of my helpers can sharpen anything as good with this guide as I can with any method. They're hopeless with anything else.

[ian maybury]

Pardon the length, but the photo Jonathan suggests that both your bevel grind and the honing bevel may be out of square and/or in different planes.

I do Veritas block and apron plane blades on the Mk 2 honing guide without any difficulty, and don't think you need to buy a new guide. There are a few things to watch out for - it took some tuning to get mine working right. The Veritas block plane blade is no problem, it tapers to the rear, but it's got roughly 1 1/4 in long parallel sides running back from the edge which align perfectly well with the separate registration guide used with the Mk 2. Use as the guys say of the camber roller makes the whole deal much less set up sensitive. (see below) There's a few other angles to using the Veritas guide though if mine was typical.

Moderate overtightening or uneven tightening isn't necessarily a big deal on plane blades, but it can if really overdone bend the clamp bar and/or sometimes tip especially narrower blades out of horizontal. It's also very possible (presuming accurate alignment in the first place) that it's slippage of the blade in the clamp that is messing things up. It's unfortunately a powder coated casting, and as a result quite slippery and may not be quite truly flat. You will probably get enough grip to handle a plane blade with it, but it's potentially a bit iffy. Mine was very problematical on stuff like Japanese chisels with irregular/tapered backs. I refaced my clamp and fitted it with DIY high grip facings - this was a big improvement, and ended the urge to over tighten. You may not need to do it, but description here: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?219790-Veritas-Mk2-Honing-Guide-Problem-amp-Fix&highlight=

Second is that if you use the cylindrical roller for honing on the MK 2 guide (as the guys say it's not advisable for blades that are wide/stable enough not to tip unexpectedly sideways when honing - see below) it dictates the side to side alignment of the blade. Trouble is that presumably due to casting and machining tolerances the line of the roller axis is not necessarily perfectly aligned with the face of the body half of the clamp that determines the horizontal alignment of your blade - it wasn't on mine anyway. This means that even if the primary bevel you grind on the blade is accurately square (and it looks like yours is not), and the blade is correctly aligned in the clamp that the micro bevel you hone on still cannot line up correctly with the primary bevel on your blade.

It's relatively easy to fix - some careful filing of a slight tilt into the mounting surface on the main body casting for the roller bracket (seen in the photo below before filing) can compensate for any misaligment and square it up for use on stuff like narrower chisels - but using the camber roller avoids the issue a lot of the time. Take care if you do decide to go with this fix to ensure that the face created is flat so that the roller assembly can't wobble.

Using the barrel/camber roller http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=54181&cat=1,43072,43078&ap=1 as Winton/the guys on wider e.g. plane blades means that the fence on the registration/angle setting jig that goes with the guide can be used to align the blade in the clamp every time (with no requirement for further fiddling about), and the blade is left free (because the camber roller can rock on the surface of the stone) to self align on the face of the waterstone. This unless something is off with the honing technique (e.g. overdoing with too much pressure or too many strokes it on one side vs the other) will deliver a micro bevel accurately aligned with the primary bevel every time.

A less likely issue to watch out for is that it seems that at least some early production (?) Mk 2 guides may as in my example have had a misalignment in the machining of the eccentric adjuster in the roller used to lift the back of the guide to hone a micro bevel. These if used may result in the blade tipping sideways a little out of the horizontal when the adjustment is made - with the result that the subsequent micro bevel ends up in not quite in the same plane as the bevel. Lee Valley have been replacing affected roller assemblies - but it seems that there may not be very many that got out.

You may need to think about getting your grinding/re-grinding of the primary bevel square. If as looks to be the case you're doing it hollow ground on a Tormek or a dry grinder then you'll have to rely on the others for a technique to keep it square - although when honing afterwards with the camber roller it doesn't need to be perfect. When there's not much metal to be removed I do it using the Mk 2 guide with the above set up (with the camber roller in) on the top surface of a Work Sharp on an 80 or 150 grit diamond lapidary disc (but it can be done on a coarse waterstone too) - the point is that using the camber roller for this job too again gives control over the squareness of the grind. (which is checked with a square)

Honing can then be done after slightly increasing the blade projection using the registration jig to increase the angle by maybe 5 deg, or by using the micro bevel adjustment. It's another step on, but the camber roller as well as tolerating some out of squareness in your primary bevel grind also allows any needed camber (curve) to be added to the edge using the Charlesworth method of extra honing strokes towards the outside corners….

ian

302995 302996

[Robert G Brown]

Found my problem. The blade sides are not parallel. The MKII will only register one side. Fortunately an old home-made one allows me to register the other side. The plane now planes straight across without digging in on one side.303093
This jig I made a few years ago works. So I am blaming the blade. Thanks Guys. The posts here helped me to figure this one.
303094

[Winton Applegate]

I'm shocked the sides are not parallel.
Varitas might re grind it for you or make it right other wise.
Shame not to be able to use your nice new jig. I am sure they would agree.
They are a great company.

Some how I thought you had the little block plane but that's a honking' blade.

[john zulu]

I notice that the grind from LV is skewed at times. I was wondering for a long time on this matter. Anyway after a few good sharpening it will be square. No biggie

[john zulu]

Blade for the plane does not need to be parallel. Dead square. We can skew the blade to adjust it. However chisels needs to be dead square.

[Kees Heiden]

I still don't see why that blade wouldn't fit in a the cheap Eclipse style jig. You could also try to use the chisel position slots. Or free hand of course. This would have been an ideal opportunity to learn a valuable technique.

And why would a chisel need to be dead square? Reasonably square, OK, but not something to get overly exited about I guess. I have some vintage ones with tapered sides, good luck on making these dead square. The work perfectly allright of course.

[john zulu]

@Kees It needs to be dead square for mortise work. I tend to use my bevel chisels for light mortise work. If it is not dead square it tends to move to one side during mortise. Paring there is no need for it.
It really depends on your current use :) I use like them square.

[Kees Heiden]

My mortising chisels are also tapered :)

Of course, you want your chisels to be reasonably square. But I think good chiseling technique is more important then absolutely flawless tools.

[ian maybury]

Some points to Robert - you're not the original poster, but you seem to have had a similar difficulty.

Are you sure your plane blade is the problem? As posted (25) above the Veritas block plane blades i've seen have sides that taper to the rear, but there is a parallel section for the first 1 1/4in or so behind the cutting edge which picks up perfectly well on the registration guide used with the Veritas Mk 2 honing guide. It does need a little care when loading the guide to make sure it's resting tight against the fence, but unless your blade is different it works just fine.

Veritas plane blades tend to be very precisely made. The bevels on mine were ground as close to square as I could detect, but even if they were a little out the above set up can be used to straighten it up on a coarse waterstone or whatever.

Judging by the photo you used the cylindrical roller assembly with your honing guide, and not the cambered one as recommended by several above. It's not a good idea - presuming that this is the case it's likely that you may run into the issue described in my long post where the roller, the previous bevel grind and the bed of the blade clamp in the guide don't all precisely align with each other, and you end up putting on a skewed micro bevel. (or worse still an out of flat one if the guide rocks between the roller controlling the alignment to the existing bevel on the waterstone doing so - depending on how the guide is handled the two could end up fighting each other)

Better as several have said to use the cambered roller which will self align to your bevel for blades which are wide enough to be stable on a stone, and save the cylindrical roller (dialled in if necesary as described) for narrow chisels and similar where the support (presuming the clamp has been trued to the roller as in (25)) can be useful to prevent them rocking or drifting to one side or the other......

[john zulu]

@Kees - Technique is key :)

[Robert G Brown]

ian maybury (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?52652-ian-maybury) You are right. I am not the original poster. I fear I may have hi-jacked this thread. My apologies for that. My plane mentioned here is not a Veritas. It is a newly made Stanley #62. I have Veritas planes. This Stanley #62 does not compare to them in quality. I had thought that the solution to Jonathan Gennaro's problem may be my solution too. My apologies again.

[ian maybury]

Don't worry Robert, my personal sense is that you should feel free to pile in as most of us do at times - it's the same broad topic anyway. My caution was more to do with uncertainty about what issue you had run into, and because I thought at first that you were possibly the OP.

Pardon my not noticing the difference re. the blade maker. I'm not familiar with the Stanley, but if the sides are not parallel then it comes down to finding a way to get the blade square in the honing guide clamp. One method might be to mark an accurate centreline using a very fine indelible marker, and use a transparent protractor from it to check if the bevel ground on to it is square. If not use the marker to mark a ref line at right angles to the centreline, and if using a dry grinder straighten it up before moving to the honing guide. It should then be possible to use a small square/90 deg triangle to line the blade up off the fence on the registration guide - or use a parallel strip.

The same advice then likely applies about using the camber roller with its ability to accomodate some misalignment of the blade in the honing guide - even more so since the blade may be harder to get set up square. I guess in the end the primary bevel and the honing bevel need only to be square enough to the centreline of the blade to be comfortably within the range of tilt adjustment available from the plane. You can then use side to side pressure to re-angle the primary bevel or micro bevel if needed on a coarse waterstone, diamond plate or whatever is appropriate.....

[Winton Applegate]

Don't worry Robert, my personal sense is that you should feel free to pile in as most of us do at times - it's the same broad topic anyway.

Heck yes.
In the past (in other Woodwork chatrooms) I was used to people getting off on rat holes about their grand kids, archery and how best to tune their snow blower . . . sometimes all in the same thread.

(we had one thread that went for, I kid you not, like four to six thousand posts . . . it has been many years so I forget but you don't think they talked about the original topic ( LN jointer plane or some such) all that time do you.

Go for it I say.

PS: as long as it comes back around to deep and nitty gritty discussions about hand tool woodworking often.

I left that one because the software was changed to garbage and all the cool guys left.

[Jim Matthews]

Damn, I wish I didn't spend the money on this jig now.:(

It's a first rate honing jig, as they go.
If it's not satisfactory, ask Lee Valley if it may be returned.

I suspect the problem is in your hand position.

Do you draw the blade toward you while honing,
or push it away from you?