Learning to use handsaws, some advice?

[Jonathan Gennaro]

Hey all,
I've been learning everything to know about hand tools. Paul sellers fan :)
Anyways I've moved onto handsaws now. For christmas I asked for a LN dovetail saw, and then a few days later went and bought a Veritas crosscut, and rip saw. Figured these 3 would get me going in the right direction. Looking for a little advice on technique, or if anyone knows of a couple good videos. I figured I'd start by making a dovetail template. After 3 attempts they seem to get better and better, but my main issue is trying to cut the "cheeks" of it. Last night I realized maybe I shouldn't be practicing with hard maple and something more of a soft wood. So I'll have to give it another go tonight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dPb_5KFEYk
That's what I'm trying to make.

http://i.imgur.com/ndIpOR6.png
&
http://i.imgur.com/4HgtpxU.png

Those are my attempts. I find it hard to start the saw on a downward angle. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I know 99% of it is probably practice, but just want to make sure I'm practicing the correct way ;)

[Jim Matthews]

I find starting a saw to be the most fussy aspect.
Most of my saws need to be "lifted" slightly,
so that only the tips of the front most teeth
skim the starting point.

If you cut a knife line, and pare slightly on the waste side,
it will be a little easier to start off and keep on track.

Note that a knife is recommended for marking crosscuts,
and a marking gauge is recommended for marking rip cuts.

A knife following the grain will tend to track "with" the grain
and can wander off the line you wish to mark.

A simple marking gauge can be made with a filed screw,
but the basic wheel gauges are very effective and stable.

I recommend a practice session or two, with your saws
before you cut pieces you intend to keep.

Get a nice straight grained piece of Poplar.
Practice 20 rip cuts, marked with a pencil.

When you're done, mark crosscuts with a knife line
and go until you get the feel for that.

There's no substitute for experience, unfortunately.

[Brian Holcombe]

I use the edge of my bench as a 90 degree reference combined with lining up my forearm with the saw. Move your arm like a piston.

For angles I align the saw with the angle (dovetails) or align the angle to be upright by rotating the work piece.

[Jonathan Gennaro]

I find starting a saw to be the most fussy aspect.
Most of my saws need to be "lifted" slightly,
so that only the tips of the front most teeth
skim the starting point.

If you cut a knife line, and pare slightly on the waste side,
it will be a little easier to start off and keep on track.

Note that a knife is recommended for marking crosscuts,
and a marking gauge is recommended for marking rip cuts.

A knife following the grain will tend to track "with" the grain
and can wander off the line you wish to mark.

A simple marking gauge can be made with a filed screw,
but the basic wheel gauges are very effective and stable.

I recommend a practice session or two, with your saws
before you cut pieces you intend to keep.

Get a nice straight grained piece of Poplar.
Practice 20 rip cuts, marked with a pencil.

When you're done, mark crosscuts with a knife line
and go until you get the feel for that.

There's no substitute for experience, unfortunately.

Thanks this actually helps a lot. Yes I am using a knife line. I made my own gauge last year, but I'm just using a grinded washer on the one side. Maybe I should go for something a little sharper. Yeah I'll start practicing with some Poplar I have. I'll also try the lifting

[Jim Koepke]

For me, lifting the saw is done with the heal of my hand against the lower horn of the handle.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

Hey all,Those are my attempts. I find it hard to start the saw on a downward angle. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I know 99% of it is probably practice, but just want to make sure I'm practicing the correct way ;)

Me too. I get better results starting with the saw path more level and then raise it to vertical after the saw starts cutting.

[Jim Koepke]

My sawing all depends on the cut being made. For a crosscut it is easy for me to start on the far side in a downward stroke. This is similar when making a long rip cut.

For small rip cuts, like dovetails or a tenon, it seems starting with the saw somewhat level and then tilting it upward to 'saw to the line' on the side closest to me works well with small work in the vise. Today this was done with four pieces held in the vise all at once. It was for a lap joint, but somewhat the same.

jtk

[Stanley Covington]

General principles every beginner should know.

1. The saw cuts quickly and cleanly because it is sharp, not because you are strong.

2. The saw cuts precisely because it wants to, and because you are not getting in the way.

There are several versions and corollaries of these principles, but they have been around as long as humans have been using saws to make sawdust.

How to teach yourself to use a saw skillfully:

1. Precision first. Speed will follow (much) later. Remember that sawing precisely is closer to fine needlepoint embroidery than other woodworking skills. Women are better than men at small, precise handwork for a reason.

2. Pay attention when cutting and check the results (straight, square, clean) every few strokes using Mark 1 Eyeball, squares, and straightedges. If you are paying attention, you will notice the cut is wandering, or curved, or slanted.

3. When the saw wanders, stop the cut immediately. Figure out why. Correct your technique accordingly.

4. Avoid learning bad habits and turning them into muscle memory.

5. Learn how to use saws in private. Most men diligently ignore all the above when others are watching.

[Jim Matthews]

The Veritas "wheel" gauge is popular.

I prefer the Japanese style, which uses a blade.
They are adjusted with a hammer, and can be "twitchy".

I highly recommend the resource provided to us by a regular poster, Derek Cohen.
He has a collection of very useful articles on his website, In The Woodshop (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.inthewoodshop.com%2F&ei=_ROiVJrqPMOsyATDiYGgAw&usg=AFQjCNFsSy-nEFl6lWw7ObADEoU05NQB5g&bvm=bv.82001339,d.aWw)
click the highlighted link to reach his excellent site.
(Unavailable this evening, but worth looking into...)

http://www.leevalley.com/en/newsletters/Woodworking/1230//article2.pdf

[Brian Holcombe]

I started using a japanese gauge recently, so I'm with Jim. I love it, you can knife a pretty good line with them which is useful in many scenarios.

[Mike Holbrook]

Handsaw Essentials by Christopher Schwarz contains all sorts of information regarding how to use, choose and abuse handsaws. Holding the saw too tight is the most common beginners error. Imagine you are holding a young bird and then reduce the pressure a little more. Forcing the saw drives it off course. Lee Valley/Veritas makes several jigs that may help keep your saw in place. You might find a good deal on an old Stanley or Millers Falls miter box that will keep your saw straight.

Frank Klausz's DVD "Dovetail A Drawer" provides basic sawing exercises that may even make a dovetail marking gauge unnecessary.

[Don Kingston]

General principles every beginner should know.

1. The saw cuts quickly and cleanly because it is sharp, not because you are strong.

2. The saw cuts precisely because it wants to, and because you are not getting in the way.

There are several versions and corollaries of these principles, but they have been around as long as humans have been using saws to make sawdust.

How to teach yourself to use a saw skillfully:

1. Precision first. Speed will follow (much) later. Remember that sawing precisely is closer to fine needlepoint embroidery than other woodworking skills. Women are better than men at small, precise handwork for a reason.

2. Pay attention when cutting and check the results (straight, square, clean) every few strokes using Mark 1 Eyeball, squares, and straightedges. If you are paying attention, you will notice the cut is wandering, or curved, or slanted.

3. When the saw wanders, stop the cut immediately. Figure out why. Correct your technique accordingly.

4. Avoid learning bad habits and turning them into muscle memory.

5. Learn how to use saws in private. Most men diligently ignore all the above when others are watching.

I like this.
sounds like Vince Lombardi Practice does not make perfect
Perfect Practice makes Perfect.
I just replied so I would have this. I wish I knew a way to print a section of a page like 1 persons reply.

[Jim Koepke]

General principles every beginner should know.

Good points Stanley.

If we do not calibrate our own eyes and hands, nobody else is going to do it for us.

jtk

[Stanley Covington]

Good points Stanley.

If we do not calibrate our own eyes and hands, nobody else is going to do it for us.jtk

Like Porter said in Payback, Jim: "Old habits die hard, I guess... if you don't kick 'em, they kick you." Best not to let bad habits become old habits, IMO.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I like this.
sounds like Vince Lombardi Practice does not make perfect
Perfect Practice makes Perfect.
I just replied so I would have this. I wish I knew a way to print a section of a page like 1 persons reply.

Or - Geno Auriemma, legendary coach of Huskies women's basketball:
"We don't practice until we get it right. We practice until we cannot get it wrong."

On the print thing -

I often paint/highlight the bit I want, copy-past to an email I send myelf, and file.

[Bill McDermott]

Getting comfortable with that first little, delicate - but confident push stroke to break the arris was the crux move for me. I'd invite you to leave the line alone and simply practice getting the feel for how to lift the blade and at the same time push a single, certain zip on to the corner, guiding with your left hand finger/thumb tip. Brushing a few teeth over exactly the right spot gets everything started in the right place. Then look at it, like it and expand upon it by extending that little broken corner across the board, neat and tight to the line.

Touch and go. The saw is moving before it touches the wood and it is off the wood before you even know it. All that is left is a tiny notch in just the right place. Touch and go.

[Roger Rettenmeier]

That sounds exactly like Singlebucking! Need to post a pic.

[Pat Barry]

Getting comfortable with that first little, delicate - but confident push stroke to break the arris was the crux move for me. I'd invite you to leave the line alone and simply practice getting the feel for how to lift the blade and at the same time push a single, certain zip on to the corner, guiding with your left hand finger/thumb tip. Brushing a few teeth over exactly the right spot gets everything started in the right place. Then look at it, like it and expand upon it by extending that little broken corner across the board, neat and tight to the line.

Touch and go. The saw is moving before it touches the wood and it is off the wood before you even know it. All that is left is a tiny notch in just the right place. Touch and go.
Sounds artistic!

[Winton Applegate]

I wish I knew a way to print a section of a page like 1 persons reply.

Click and drag across all the lines you want to copy
Select the copy command from your pull down or second button or two finger tap your track pad.
Then go to your word processor program, in my case I just use Text Edit.
Paste the copied text into a text frame.
Title / save it
Print it.

You can cut and past in the same way here using the "Wrap Quote" button that looks like a cartoon speech balloon just above your Reply window on the right here rather than select Reply With Quote above.
That way you can select a specific line of text to reply to instead of the whole darn thing with photos which takes up a frustratingly large amount of room in the thread. like this
Vince Lombardi Practice does

[Stanley Covington]

Now that I have more time (New Year's Day vacation here in Tokyo right now) allow me to elaborate a few of the points mentioned in my previous post.

"1. The saw cuts quickly and cleanly because it is sharp, not because you are strong." This point has been touched on by others, but let me repeat that most efforts to force the saw through the wood waste energy, and always hurts precision. Of course, precision is relative, and cutting a 2x4 to length for framing a henhouse does not require the precision required for cutting a through-dovetailed 45 degree corner mortise in ebony. However, in most cases, you will get better results moving the saw faster to accelerate the cut rather than applying extra force. And of course, a sharp saw always cuts faster and more efficiently. I have raced professional sawyers in Japan in timed cuts, at measured distances, using the same saws, and was impressed with how relatively smoothly they moved the saw, and how little apparent force they put into it, and how quickly the saw "dropped" through the boards. So the thing to take away from this is to keep the saw sharp, and don't try to power it through the wood. If a cut needs to go faster, move the saw faster instead.

"2. The saw cuts precisely because it wants to, and because you are not getting in the way." This means that a good saw in good condition can cut better than most people can use it. The workman often wastes the potential of his saw by working at cross purposes.

Let me add a pet peeve. The current boom in expensive backsaws being marketed in the US is irritating. Beautiful handles, nice backs, but the blade is what does the work, not the back or handle. So we have a $10 sharpening job on a $15 blade supported by a $90 back attached to a $120 handle. Reminds me too much of $300 BB shoes. Rant ended.

The most common error detrimental to speed, efficiency and accuracy that every human, without exception, makes is to move the sawhandle in a left or right arc instead of moving the saw handle straight back and forward. Of course, this makes the sawblade wiggle in strange ways. And because the blade's arced movement is not consistent, the cut wanders. So one must pay attention to the movement of the saw, sensing how far it's movement is tracking away from the ideal straight line.

A straight line is defined as the shortest path between two points, so the first step in cutting a straight line is to layout a straight line on the wood to be cut, the type of layout line you make will depend on the required precision. When making the cut, you need to be able to see the layout lines on two planes of the piece to be cut at the same time. The second step is to precisely start the cut at one end of the piece. Bill McDermott made some good recommendations for this above. The next step is to cut along the layout line towards the point farthest away from the start point. This is where people "get in the way" of the saw. Their stance does not let them keep an eye on both lines, or it puts their torso in the way of the sawhandle's path, or their grip is so tight their wrist keeps the saw locked into an arced instead of promoting straight movement.

So take a careful stance so the sawhandle can come back to touch an imaginary point at your side and directly under your shoulder joint with every stroke, check your view, and make your shoulder, arm, and wrist a machine that moves exactly the same with every stroke, and with the wrist working like a precisely timed, frictionless swivel. The imaginary touchpoint at the side of the torso in the previous sentence is a key point for me. This touchpoint's location varies with circumstances, but in my case it is most often located just to the right of my side, and directly below my shoulder joint, and is at the terminus of the extended layout line. This line extends a foot or more past the workpiece, making the layout line much much longer, and making it easier to keep the saw's movement straight. When I find my sawing precision falling off, I refocus on stance, eyeball, and redrawing this imaginary line from the two points on the wood to my side, and without fail, my precision recovers immediately. This idea works using any kind of saw, push or pull, dovetail or panel saw.

Stan