Layout tools

[Adam Stevens2]

I've been working on adding to my toolkit recently - finally added a top quality plane from LV that I am loving, as well as a dovetail saw. I've realised that I really need some quality marking and measuring tools, but the variety of them has me a little bit baffled. I have a (crappy) try square but it seems that I could something a bit more versatile and accurate. To that end, what is the practical difference between a combination square and a double square? I've been trying to find out what the difference is between them and don't seem to be having much luck. Is it worth having one of each in different sizes? Or stick to a particular type?

I'd also like to add a sliding bevel gauge to my toolkit - any recommendations?

Anything that I haven't specifically asked about that I'll also find useful as I continue my education?

[Mike Henderson]

On the combination square, one side is 90 degrees while the other side is 45 degrees. On a double square, both sides are 90 degrees. All of the double squares I've seen are small, maybe 4" or 6", while most combination squares are 12" or longer.

Search the Internet and you'll see the difference.

For combination squares, I'd recommend either Starrett or Mitutoyo. For small double squares, almost any brand will do. I have a bunch of PEC (I think) and they're fine.

I like 4" double squares for a lot of work, but some things need a 12" or 18" combination square.

Mike

[Frederick Skelly]

Agree with Mike - search google for images. I use a combo square for things that are a foot or so long and a 4" double square for small stuff.

Dont settle for a cheap BORG combo square - they may not be truly square. (Mine wasnt.) When I realized it, I bought the Starrett combo square and love it. There are some less expensive but still good squares out there if you dont want to buy Starrett. Search the archives - folks have previously mentioned that Harry Epstein tools has several brands, some of which were well thought of. You can buy a small double square from Epstein or LV and be happy. (I have the LV.)

I also use a set of Indian engineering squares.

An off topic suggestion - consider buying a marking knife along with your good square. LV has a plastic handled one for about $10 that works fine for a starter.

[Chuck Hart]

PEC makes a very good combination square it is very accurate , hefty, and not nearly as expensive as Starrett.Here is their web site and they sell direct and on the net

http://www.pectools.com/squares/index.html They are available on Amazon. If you go out to pec tools on Amazon there will be a picture of their square and their double square.

[Jim Koepke]

My preferred layout square is a fixed try square. The size depends on the size of the work. I have a few. Same with the bevel squares it is nice to have a small one for dovetails if you use a bevel square on dovetails.

Some might prefer to have two or three combination squares with different length rules.

It isn't difficult to make a marking knife from an old saw blade or even a plane blade. You will need a Dremel tool or some other way to cut them. For my knife from a plane blade I made scales and drilled holes through the soft part of an old laminated blade. After that I bought a lathe and made a blade from an old saw plate. A handle was turned and the blade was epoxied into the handle.

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The plane blade one gets used most since it is the tougher of the two. The saw blade knife is great for marking dovetails and on pieces that are already milled a bit.

The plane blade knife was used for a while without any handle. I like it better with the handle.

Here is the post from when the plane blade knife was made:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?85649-Home-Made-Marking-Knife

jtk

[John Schtrumpf]

I'd also like to add a sliding bevel gauge to my toolkit - any recommendations?

The Shinwa 8" sliding bevel. The finish is not refined, it is more of a carpenter's grade tool. But functionally it is one of the better designs. It locks well, and the locking knob is out of the way at the base. Also the blade is offset to one side of the handle so you have thick and thin reference. The handle is cast aluminum and the blade is stainless steel. The blade while stiff enough for normal usage, can be bent if abused. I prefer the 8" which is a good middle length (it also comes in 10").

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Adam

For laying out joints I would get a 6" combination square (either a Starrett on eBay, or one from Lee Valley). The small double square is useful as a depth gauge, for marking mitres, among other uses. I would also look for 4" and 8" machinist squares. There are a number if cheap ones on the market. The machinist square is a solid steel and will hold its accuracy after a fall. The 4" is ideal for marking small joints and the 8" for larger joints. You really do not need anything larger. Later you can add in a 12" combination square, and I'd look for a Starrett on eBay.

A good sliding bevel is a rare item. They are all not equal at holding a setting. The best of the rest is the Lee Valley one, while the best of the best is made by Chris Vesper.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[lowell holmes]

Falling in line with "He that has the most tools when he passes on, wins", I have one of each.:)

Seriously, My prized square is a Starret combination square which is at least 10 years old. Almost equal is a small double square from Lee Valley.

I would not be without either. I also have made small wooden tri squares for a particular need.

You can find reasonably acceptable squares at the borg, but they will not satisfy the lust many of us have for a really top quality square.

[ken hatch]

Squares have been covered pretty well about all I would add is another vote to buy the best so you can just buy once.

Marking knives, oh boy have I gone through a ton of those. They are kinda like marking gauges or for that matter women, you just have to find one that works for you. You can read the description, single bevel, double bevel, stiff blade, fixable blade, handle, no handle, the list goes on forever and almost every one you try will have something that doesn't work for you. BTW, big bucks don't make no never mind....one of the almost works, near best of the bunch is the $10 USD plastic one from LV, much better than the $85 USD one with a wood handle that looks almost the same, go figure. For what it's worth the best for me is a Pfeil Swiss Made chip carving knife #13 Woodcraft #05Z93. I doubt it would be best for you, it doesn't meet any of the requirements that I thought I wanted in a marking knife but.....

BTW, it's a sickness I know but almost every time the local Woodcraft gets a new shipment I buy 'em out. Some day I will have enough to last my life and Pat's grandkids' life. Then I can RIP with a Swiss Made #13 Carving knife in my hand.

[Jim Matthews]

Just buy the Starret, if you don't have any squares.
They're not that much more money, for the highest quality.
They'll be right, and they'll last forever.

I use a 4" double square and a Japanese flexible square for layout.

The 4" square is used to make sure my edges and ends are perpendicular to the reference faces.

The Japanese layout square can be clamped in place for marking out with a knife.

I have other layout tools, but those two are the ones I use, daily.

http://www.amazon.com/Metric-Japanese-Style-Carpenters-Square/dp/B0016V7MNA/ref=sr_1_3?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1419894696&sr=1-3&keywords=Japanese+square

[Mike Holbrook]

Like Jim I like my 4" double square and my Japanese flexible square. Oddly enough Lee Valley's price for the Japanese square is a little less than the Amazon price.

I also recently acquired a LV Sliding Square. This square has a few nice features. Multiple graduations allow one to mark two axes at once. The large blade can be written or marked on then erased. Diamond holes in both sides, make it easy to draw lines parallel to an edge. The wide blade and rest make this square steadier than other squares. Especially good for laying out mortise and tenon joints.

[Roy Lindberry]

I've been working on adding to my toolkit recently - finally added a top quality plane from LV that I am loving, as well as a dovetail saw. I've realised that I really need some quality marking and measuring tools, but the variety of them has me a little bit baffled. I have a (crappy) try square but it seems that I could something a bit more versatile and accurate. To that end, what is the practical difference between a combination square and a double square? I've been trying to find out what the difference is between them and don't seem to be having much luck. Is it worth having one of each in different sizes? Or stick to a particular type?

I'd also like to add a sliding bevel gauge to my toolkit - any recommendations?

Anything that I haven't specifically asked about that I'll also find useful as I continue my education?


Going in a completely different direction than the other responses, you could make your own try square (and 45° gauge). They are not very difficult, and can be built to be quite accurate. I made a set of three: the small one is used for checking edges of boards, the mid size gets the most use, and is used for marking cross cuts, and the larger one for larger work.

I followed Bob R's process with little difficulty. You can view it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIGyscwCJVM

[John Sanford]

If you're up for an heirloom tool (with an heirloom tool price), get the Chris Vesper sliding bevel. Otherwise, the Shinwa. Others have addressed the squares. If you decide to go with a Starrett combination, know that Lee Valley appears to have the bestest price around on the Forged Steel head model.

You may want to consider adding a divider (or set) to your arsenal. They can be mighty handy for, well, dividing. Being analog / non-numeric instruments, you can divide a dimension into ANY number of parts. No rounding or close enough. Need to divide a 9" board into 7 equal segments? A divider is handy for doing it. (Note: You can also do it easily with either a ruler that is 14"+ long, or a Metric ruler that is at least 28cm long.)

On the combination squares, a 7" and 12" are what I use most frequently (used both today), I recently picked up an 18" that I have used a couple times already. And a 4" double square is sweet, I also used it today.

[Adam Stevens2]

Thanks for all the input, really helpful. LV might be seeing some more business out of me here shortly.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Surprised I don't see this referenced more often:

Nearly everyone here knows Hock for rreplacement plane irons.

They also have a variety of marking knives. My favorites just a stick of steel - nothing added to be a handle. I particularly like the spear-point design. Basically gives you a LH and a RH all in one, and it has a flat back for solid vertical registration.



Oh, yeah - and the Starrett combo, starrett 4" dbl, lee valley saddle square.

[Jim Koepke]

Almost forgot my Stanley Odd Jobs. It gets used all the time for marking rip cuts with a pencil. Sometimes as a comparative or transfer depth gauge.

It is also good for checking plumb and inside corners for square.

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There on the bench in front of the cabinet.

It has some functions I do not use often.

jtk

[bridger berdel]

The idea that a square with moving parts will stay accurate indefinitely is a dangerous fallacy. I buy square heads whenever I find quality ones for pennies, if they are in decent-ish shape. I now have a dozen or so. One is an old starrett, worn well out of square. Someday I'll set up to true them and do a bunch. I did buy a certified engineer's square which I reserve for checking other squares.

[Stew Hagerty]

OK, I have a Starrett 6" Combo and a 4" Double. I keep them both in my apron. However, when I'm doing a lot of layout, I use my Red Stuff.

Yup, here is my plug for Woodpeckers (nope, I have no affiliation). I have their try squares from 6" to 26", 3" and 6" speed squares, a 24" T square, and a 12" saddle square. Not to mention Paolini Pocket square & bench rule, story sticks, and many of their other tools. They're a bit pricey, but they are super accurate and Made in the USA.

[Paul Sidener]

To that end, what is the practical difference between a combination square and a double square? I've been trying to find out what the difference is between them and don't seem to be having much luck. Is it worth having one of each in different sizes? Or stick to a particular type?

I don't think you need both. I just use a combination square, can't think of a reason for both. Just pick one you like and fits your budget, Starrett and Mitutoyo both make quality products.


I'd also like to add a sliding bevel gauge to my toolkit - any recommendations?
I don't care for many of the new ones. I don't like the lock on the side. I use an old Stanley #18, the lock is on the bottom. The bottom lock holds better. They are pretty easy to find on Ebay.

[Bill Houghton]

The stock (the handle part) of a double square tends to be a little longer than that of a combination square. Longer gives you better registration against the edge, leading to a bit more precision. This is helpful in 4" and 6" sizes. But the 45 degree choice on the combination square makes it more versatile, and the stock is large enough, once you get up to 12", to work fine.

I watched for a 4" double square for years, and sure have been grateful to finally have found one. But the 12" is more useful more of the time, so get that first. I do also use a 2" engineer's square occasionally, but not often enough to buy one retail (mine is an unknown make from India, part of a package deal at a yard sale).

As to sliding bevels: I use bevels a lot in my remodeling work; I'll sometimes have six going, set to different bevel elements of, say, a window I'm installing. I like the Stanley #18 sliding bevel, which uses the same lock-at-the-tail principle as the Shinwa. There's one on That Auction Site as I write this, five hours left, $8 asking, with no bids. They come in a range of sizes, which can be nice. I also have some bevels with a thumbscrew of some kind at the pivot point. These work well, too; the Stanley is a touch nicer, most of the time.