Bad design for drawers?

[Bob Cooper]

I need to build bunch of drawers -- 25 or so in a closet and then a bunch in the workshop. Thus far every drawer I've built -- kitchen -- using half blind dovetails.

How big of a mistake would it be to just use butt joints and pocket hole screws. The screws would only be visible from the back. The front would have a false front attached.

Clearly not as strong but would they fail? They will alone riding on ball bearing drawer slides.

[Leo Graywacz]

Pocket screws would work. Use glue.

This would be better. Not as quick as pocket screws.


http://www.fototime.com/6DF4249CEDADFCE/orig.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/8311ECD9080B051/orig.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/06AB553FF877B4E/orig.jpg

[Art Mann]

Pocket screws will work fine. I have done destructive testing on 3/4" plywood held together with pocket screws (no glue) similar to what you are proposing and they are more than strong enough. A recent project of mine was building a new router table (New Yankee Workshop style) with lots of super sturdy drawers and pocket screws worked out great. I didn't really worry that much about exposed fasteners. If you have a plan for dealing with appearance issues, then I say go for it.

[Jamie Buxton]

Are you making the drawers from plywood or solid lumber?
I use Leo's corner in plywood. It works very well. There's facegrain-to-facegrain glue area with plywood. I don't use it with solid lumber. The glue faces will all have endgrain faces.

[Tom Willoughby]

That is exactly what I did for my shop drawers. The pocket holes face out the front and the back of the drawer. The front is covered with the false front and the ones at the back cannot be seen when the drawer is installed. It makes for a clean look inside the drawer and they are relatively fast to build. I've not had any structural issues building them this way.

Tom

[Scott Brandstetter]

I am very interested in this thread, question. I hope the OP doesn't mind an additional question. Leo, in your pictures, how do you attach the bottom of the drawer? I too am looking at a new project that will include creating a lot of drawers and they won't be holding a lot of weight....drawers for clothes mainly.

[Peter Kelly]

As above, pocket screws are absolutely fine for drawers, have done many this way myself. The screws tend to creep a bit when power driving so I usually hand drive them for the last 2-3 turns. Seems to keep the joints aligned better.

Biscuits, dowels or Confirmats are also acceptable.

[Mike Cutler]

If you're not worried about the aesthetic, the pocket screws will work great. If the drawers for the shop are big and deep, and will hold a lot of weight, you may want to reinforce the butt joint, but a normal butt joint with pocket screws is pretty strong.

[Justin Ludwig]

My shop drawers are butt jointed, glued and nailed with 18g brads. Never had one fail.

[Peter Quinn]

The pocket screws with some glue make a decent drawer, possibly better in plywood than solid, but they work either way. To me drawer construction is one of those things that can really bring out the opinions of wood workers, search some old posts, can get hot. My take is its kind of like a dress code. Some styles of dress are more appropriate or even required at certain times, other occasions call for something more casual. Entering a juried furniture competition? Better to not pocket screw your drawers. In fact a soon as somebody tells me "applied fronts" my very next though is "I don't care whats behind them, all bets are off!". When I make dovetails its by hand, half blind integral fronts. I've always found kitchen cabs with dovetail drawers and applied fronts to be a major wast of time and money. They are strong, but its like driving an armored car to your day job...assuming your not an armored car driver. Drawer running on slides.....almost any construction is going to work. At work all the drawers for high end work get dovetailed, but there is a machine that spits them out, so its pretty much as fast as pocket screws but easier to assemble.

The one thing I don't like about pocket screw drawers is assembly. You start with four butt joints, no mechanical connection, no assembly aids, and the screws want to push the wood just a bit of the mark as they torque down. It can be a bit challenging to achieve square. For a few quick drawers I've used pocket screws, I keep the bottoms real tight to the opening to help square things up as thats really the only thing you have. But if I'm making more than a few I find its actually easier to set up for a tongue and rabbit, a drawer lock joint, even a simple shallow dado on the sides to give some mechanical reference fro keeping things square and plumb in three directions. I've come to the conclusion that when I add up all my time from stock prep through instillation (and installation of an out of square drawer can be more challenging) pocket screw drawers are not actually my quickest option. Try a pocket hole drawer sample for yourself and see if you like them! Its worth doing a test before committing a lot of stock to it.

[Bob Cooper]

Great. I should have mentioned these will be made using solid wood, Ash, and I will be glueing them as well

Regarding the bottoms, I just cut a dado in three sides and make the back shorter so that I can slide the bottom in once the drawer is constructed

[Justin Ludwig]

Great. I should have mentioned these will be made using solid wood, Ash, and I will be glueing them as well

Regarding the bottoms, I just cut a dado in three sides and make the back shorter so that I can slide the bottom in once the drawer is constructed

Good method and easy to square up. I wouldn't over think it - especially if they're for the shop. I don't carry the OCD for my shop built stuff though, I'd go crazy. I love ugly and pragmatic shop cabs and jigs.

[Max Neu]

One thing that will make pocket screws easier to assemble is using a 23g pinner to tack things together.You won't notice the tiny hole it leaves, especially if you fill them, it will make the process go alot smoother.

[George Bokros]

I built a closet organizer using pocket screws for drawer assembly. I used Woodpeckers box clamps to hole the pieces together while pocket screwing ang the srawers stayed aligned with no component movement. Drawers came out perfectly square and are strong. I used no glue in assembly.

[roger wiegand]

The guys up in Cow Hampshire who built our kitchen cabinets ~15 years ago assured us that their butt joined and screwed drawers were "so strong you could't break them if you wanted to". Over the next 10 years all of them that carried any weight at all failed at those "super strong" corners. I replaced them as they failed with BB boxes made as #2 above (slightly different proportions to the joint), none of which had had any problems up until the time we sold the house. So my experience with glued and screwed butt joints for drawers is 100% negative. For solid wood I use through dovetails, cut on a jig so they are fast and easy--they don't need to look beautiful for utility cabinets. I can't imagine that the 10 minutes per drawer time savings of not making some kind of mechanical joint is not worthwhile.

[Jim Matthews]

If you're genuinely concerned about holding power,
glue in corner blocks and drive the pocket
screws into the blocks.

I think you'll be just fine, with screws and glue.

A simple compromise would be to cut a rabbet
in the front and rear faces of each drawer,
for the sides to fit.

http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/articles/rabbet-joint-strong-enough/

http://cdn1.thewoodwhisperer.com/wp-content/uploads/reinforced_rabbet.jpg

[glenn bradley]

My usual go-to drawer joint if the drawer-lock or lock-rabbet that Leo shows:

302840

But I have a unit of 5 very large drawers that is pocket-holed and false-fronted as you describe:

302841

I did a smaller unit for Dad's 14" bandsaw cabinet and those similarly built drawers have been in use for many years without issue. I have no problem with it for raw functionality; it just lacks any pizzazz ;).

[Tom Clark FL]

Bob,

When you are building fine furniture for the house it is time to get out the dovetail jig. For shop cabinets and closet drawers, I have hundreds of drawers in my shop and office built with my nail gun, stapler, and butt joints. Never had a drawer fail over the last 30 years, even the heavily loaded ones. Drawers are super fast to build and assemble, and super strong. What makes my drawers so strong is the bottom is cut square and right to the finish size of the drawer, then stapled directly to the bottom of the drawer using staples every 6 inches. All drawers use good 1/2" ply and 1/4" bottoms. Adding the bottoms this way makes drawers perfectly square automatically and adds an extra 1/2" to the depth of the drawers.

Build a small sample drawer, let the glue dry overnight, then try to tear it apart. Works for me and saves hundreds of hours…

[Leo Graywacz]

I am very interested in this thread, question. I hope the OP doesn't mind an additional question. Leo, in your pictures, how do you attach the bottom of the drawer? I too am looking at a new project that will include creating a lot of drawers and they won't be holding a lot of weight....drawers for clothes mainly.

Trapped in a dado.

[Bob Cooper]

Tom. Do you glue your drawer bottoms or just staple them?

[Myk Rian]

Pocket screws look cheap, and I wouldn't use them on drawers anyway. Locking rabbet is what I use. Very strong, and easy to do.

302851

[Matt Meiser]

Pocket screws make fine utility drawers very quickly. I built a bunch for the shop over the years and a number of them for cabinetry too. The ones in my mom and dads kitchen are holding up just fine. Just wish I'd insisted on better slides.

Another way of making sturdy fast drawers is through dominos. Just be sure to put the glue in the slot not on the domino as the tight fit will scrape off virtually all the glue. Trust me ;)

[Tom Willoughby]

Tom. Do you glue your drawer bottoms or just staple them?
I made a dado and put a thin piece of ply wood for the bottoms. I didn't glue anything so it would be easy to replace if necessary. Attached are a couple of photos of a drawer built into my planer stand.

Tom

[Kent A Bathurst]

Bob,

When you are building fine furniture for the house it is time to get out the dovetail jig. For shop cabinets and closet drawers, I have hundreds of drawers in my shop and office built with my nail gun, stapler, and butt joints.

Hear, hear!

1/2 ply 4 sides; 1/4" or 1/2" ply bottom [depending on intended load/drawer width].

Butt-joint 4 couners with 3 thru-dowels each corner; flush bottom with glue and staples or screws.

False front for alignment and "decent look" factors.


I can plow thru these very fast - crank put a set, let the glud dry overnite for install and fronts int ehmorning.

[Art Mann]

In view of all the previous comments, I would like to add a few details about my experience. When I do joints with pocket screws, I clamp the material with cabinet clamps (as if they were being glued up) before running the screws. There is absolutely none of the slip you sometimes get using the Kreg style Vise grip clamps or (worse) trying to hold the pieces with your hands. I have never used glue because I can't tell any difference in strength. When I tried breaking some pieces without glue, the joints were so resistant to breaking that I thought glue was unnecessary. Obviously, it doesn't hurt anything though.

As far as durability goes, 10 years ago I built a table saw outfeed table using only pocket screw joinery. It has shelves and drawers on the back side. The table is on wheels and I also use it as an auxiliary assembly table. It has been beaten to death over the years. I used to keep two heavy 3.5 hp routers in two of the drawers. They were regularly removed and replaced. I haven't seen any evidence of joint failure anywhere so far.

[Jim Becker]

I've made many drawers by that method and they have worked well. In fact, it's the only way I build them if they are being constructed from plywood.

[scott vroom]

The guys up in Cow Hampshire who built our kitchen cabinets ~15 years ago assured us that their butt joined and screwed drawers were "so strong you could't break them if you wanted to". Over the next 10 years all of them that carried any weight at all failed at those "super strong" corners. I replaced them as they failed with BB boxes made as #2 above (slightly different proportions to the joint), none of which had had any problems up until the time we sold the house. So my experience with glued and screwed butt joints for drawers is 100% negative. For solid wood I use through dovetails, cut on a jig so they are fast and easy--they don't need to look beautiful for utility cabinets. I can't imagine that the 10 minutes per drawer time savings of not making some kind of mechanical joint is not worthwhile.

Were they ply or solid wood? Were the screws driven straight into end grain?

Angled pocket screws have much greater holding strength than screws driven directly into end grain.

[Matt Meiser]

99% of the ones I made that way were baltic birch. All those grain direction variations probably helped tremendously. In regular ply, with straight butt joints and screws I can see splitting in the 1-2 plys you'd hit.

[Tom Clark FL]

Tom. Do you glue your drawer bottoms or just staple them?

Sorry, thought I said that everything is glued. I use Tightbond II and it is very good.

[Frederick Skelly]

What makes my drawers so strong is the bottom is cut square and right to the finish size of the drawer, then stapled directly to the bottom of the drawer using staples every 6 inches. All drawers use good 1/2" ply and 1/4" bottoms. Adding the bottoms this way makes drawers perfectly square automatically and adds an extra 1/2" to the depth of the drawers.

I've done the same for shop cabinets, except I screw and glue the bottoms. The bottom provides some amount of reinforcement for the butt joint. The screws provide some amount of mechanical resistance to help keep the bottom firmly in place. (I drill pilot holes for the screws of course.) Ive done this for drawers made of regular 3/4" plywood and worked just fine for me. Seems like it should also work well for a solid drawer with a plywood bottom.
Fred

[keith micinski]

Pocket screws won't be seen at all with the false front and screws on the backside and are more then strong enough. All of my shop drawers are made this way. Use clamps just like you were glueing them up to hold the panels and you won't have any movement like a previous poster suggested. Finally everyone thinks a screw is an inferior fastener because in the 1500's they didn't do it that way. They didn't invent the screw lathe until 1770 but you can bet your ass that if they could have easily and cheaply produced screws they would have used them no less then we do today.

[Jim Matthews]

{link removed}

Three things about this humble brag that chap my hide:

Your shop furniture is better looking than my "studio" furniture.
You built your shop in an unused Area 51 hanger, by the size of it.
The sawdust and shavings in New Mexico are scavenged by Kangaroo Rats for bedding -
no sweeping required.

(Solid article, though)

[roger wiegand]

Were they ply or solid wood? Were the screws driven straight into end grain?

Angled pocket screws have much greater holding strength than screws driven directly into end grain.

Screwed into end grain on solid wood. The glue, to which thy ascribed magical properties worked no better on this end grain than on any other. Angled would have been better. These guys had no clue about woodworking, they could just make fast cheap cabinets that perhaps lasted until they got on site. Our builder (also an idiot) was adamant that we use them.

The point is it takes virtually no time to make lock miter joint, why would you not bother on your own stuff? Finding and setting up a jig for pocket screws, ordering the special screws if you do so all seems like it would be more of a pain than making a mechanical joint. I understand why they do it in production settings, saving a minute or two each when you make 10,000 drawers is a big deal, but for the rest of us its a considerable investment with no discernible benefit.

[Leo Graywacz]

Lock miters take substantially more time to make then pocket screw and glue. The clamping time alone is one of the biggest time factors. Pocket screw drawers are ready for sanding as soon as the last screw is tightened.

It is still a cheap low budget drawer. But I have seen 1/2" plywood nailed together with air brads last decades. It's all in how you treat them. If you are going to bang them up and just toss heavy objects into them then you may need something more then that. If you place objects into them and close them correctly then they will last a long time. And it's a shop drawer, if it fails, you make another in 15 minutes with nary a setup.

[roger wiegand]

The clamping time alone is one of the biggest time factors.

Ah, for quick work I don't clamp them, instead use a couple finish nails to hold them together while the glue sets. I do let the glue set for a couple hours before doing next steps, so I can see that time difference. I'm still not inspired to tool up for pocket screws though.

[Michael W. Clark]

I personally would not want the sides of the drawer bottoms to show on anything in the house, but maybe the drawer hardware will hide them. It's an easy fix though, just make a small rabbet on the bottom of all the parts to house the drawer bottom, then glue and brad or staple. I don't set up a dado for this, just use the regular blade and make a couple of passes, but would probably be worth the dado for 100 parts (4x25).

I've done butt jointed 1/2" MDF with screws, no glue, and has held up in my router table with router bits for probably 10 years of off/on hobby use. The last shop drawers I made, I used 1/2" ply with a tongue and dado like Leo described but with different proportions (more like 1/4" x 1/4"). I glued them, then used 18 ga brads to act as clamps. If you dry fit and pre-cut the drawer bottoms, you don't need any clamps to assemble them. The drawer bottoms will square them if you can put them in before the glue dries.

I'm doing this again now on some trays for a mini-lathe stand I'm making over the holidays.

[Pat Barry]

My shop drawers are butt jointed, glued and nailed with 18g brads. Never had one fail.
Justin, you just haven't had them long enough. They are guaranteed to begin to fail in a couple years. All my kitchen drawers were built that way and they ALL failed. They loosened up front and rear both. It just not a reliable system.

[Pat Barry]

Great. I should have mentioned these will be made using solid wood, Ash, and I will be glueing them as well

Regarding the bottoms, I just cut a dado in three sides and make the back shorter so that I can slide the bottom in once the drawer is constructed
Personally I don't like the short back with slide in bottom but if you use several screws to hold the bottom in place, not nails, I suppose it will last. Of course, you do need to make allowances in the screw attach for wood movement by elongating the holes a bit.

[Pat Barry]

Bob,

When you are building fine furniture for the house it is time to get out the dovetail jig. For shop cabinets and closet drawers, I have hundreds of drawers in my shop and office built with my nail gun, stapler, and butt joints. Never had a drawer fail over the last 30 years, even the heavily loaded ones. Drawers are super fast to build and assemble, and super strong. What makes my drawers so strong is the bottom is cut square and right to the finish size of the drawer, then stapled directly to the bottom of the drawer using staples every 6 inches. All drawers use good 1/2" ply and 1/4" bottoms. Adding the bottoms this way makes drawers perfectly square automatically and adds an extra 1/2" to the depth of the drawers.

Build a small sample drawer, let the glue dry overnight, then try to tear it apart. Works for me and saves hundreds of hours…

The plywood to plywood method you described here would be fine for shop cabinets, light duty ones. I suppose you could take it up a notch by screw attaching the bottoms for drawers carrying a bit of a load.


Note : The true test of a drawer is not whether you can destroy it the next day, its whether it loosens up over time due to moisture, weight, banging around, temperature changes, slamming shut, being yanked open, etc, etc.

[Art Mann]

This thread has gone on a long time for such a simple question. I just want to make one more suggestion for the OP. Instead of trusting any of us, cut out a couple of short pieces using the same type of material and dimensions you plan to use for your drawers. Go ahead and construct the joint using best practices with 2 or 3 pocket screws of the recommended type for your application. Now, build identical joint samples using whatever techniques are suggested here that you think might be appropriate. Notice the amount of work involved with each joint. Give any glue plenty of time to cure. Now, proceed to systematically destroy each sample in the same manner and remember the force it took to break each. Ask yourself whether each joint was strong enough for your application. When I did a similar experiment, there was absolutely no doubt left in my mind of which method to use.

[Tom Clark FL]

Justin, you just haven't had them long enough. They are guaranteed to begin to fail in a couple years. All my kitchen drawers were built that way and they ALL failed. They loosened up front and rear both. It just not a reliable system.

Gentlemen, we are all free to do it our way. But when told my drawers will fail in a couple of years, I have to respectfully disagree.
I bet your kitchen drawers were all built with particle board.

1. My 200 shop drawers are mostly 25+ years old and many are loaded like this.
2. This cabinet was built by a beginner (me) 28 years ago. No failures at all. Even after moving 24 cabinets 1600 miles cross country.
3. My clamp drawer. I build my own cabinets as quickly as possible so I can spend time on other projects.