I am ready to buy a bandsaw, I need help narrow it down my choice

[Fidel Fernandez]

Hi,

I have been reading a lot about different bandsaws and I made my decision to 2 bandsaws.
First let me tell you my guides for decision.

1. No old iron. I don't want and I won't spend time fixing a machine. this is my hobby (woodworking) not metal working. It is in a garage so I don't want a huge machine.

2. I would like a Italian bandsaw for their quality, but I don't have the money.

3. I will use it more for curve cuts and compound angles, etc. I will have the occasional resaw, but that won't happen every time. I work most of my weekends so even if I resaw often it will be between weekends.

4. I have settle to Asian bandsaws for the following brands: Laguna and Hammer.

Ok, The bandsaws that I have look out there are:
1412 from Laguna
LT14 SUV from Laguna
Hammer N3800
Hammer N4400.

I have discarded the Lagunas, because there are so many good bandsaw out there. There are also many bad experiences ouot there and they have common occurrences. One the table not being flat and you have to mess with it to make it flat. It is like buying Lottery, you don't know if you will get the prize or not. I don't want to spend more money to make it work right, it should work right from the beginning.

Ok, back to the choices.
The Hammer are made in Asia and assembled in Europe. The bad reviews are pretty low to almost none. I know there are more Lagunas in the market so that makes more of the reviews.

My problem is which one to pick.
The main difference is Flywheel 17 ⅜ to 15, Motor 3.5 and 2.0 and cutting height is the same.
The price difference is about $500 placed on my garage, so there are between $2000 and $2500. There will be a price increase January 1, 2015.
Based on my use I am thinking on N3800, smaller saw. This is just a hobby, so It is not for massive furniture production. I like to build tables, chairs, etc.

Would I regret not getting the N4400 largest saw. I am afraid one day I will say I wish I had more power, but if that happens only once or twice during the life time and I am ok with that.

Any suggestions?

I have seen the MM16, but it is out of my budget. I won't wait for a used one either.

[Rod Sheridan]

Having used both Hammer machines, yes go for the N4400, it can handle larger blades and has more power as well as larger diameter wheels.

The Hammer saws also have table extensions and sanding belt conversions available.

Regards, Rod.

[David Kumm]

No one ever wishes they went smaller on a bandsaw. Even for furniture work, the ability to create your own veneer spoils you. Dave

[Frank Martin]

Go for the larger Hammer. That size is a popular option. In addition to handling whatever you throw at it when/if you decide to sell, it will sell quicker and for more.

[Rick Fisher]

I didn't know the Hammer parts where made in Asia. Interesting.

One of my best buds has a 4400 Hammer bandsaw, its a big little saw. Impressive machine..

[mreza Salav]

Get the biggest/strongest/most powerful bandsaw you can. You won't regret that.

[glenn bradley]

+1 I have never wished for less power on my 2HP bandsaw. An extra pony or two would be great.

[Chuck Hart]

I saw the Hammer 4400 went on sale for $2195

[Fidel Fernandez]

Yes, that is the price, plus deliver and tax makes it to 2500ish. I live in Texas and they have an office in Dallas so I have to pay sales tax.

[Chris Parks]

The Hammer are made in Asia and assembled in Europe.

Have you proof of this? a link will do. You may well be right but it is news to me and a lot of other people.

[Peter Kelly]

I didn't know the Hammer parts where made in Asia. Interesting.

One of my best buds has a 4400 Hammer bandsaw, its a big little saw. Impressive machine..I'd always understood saws were either assembled in Austria from Italian parts or made completely in Italy as the 510 and 610 models previoiusly were. I think the 510 and 610 are now made at Felder's plant in Austria.

I think the alleged Asian parts / assembly with Hammer machines are largely internet rumors...

[Phil Thien]

I guess I'll be the contrarian.

Just kidding, get the bigger saw.

[Jim Becker]

If you're considering the bigger Hammer, is there any reason you're not considering the venerable MM16 from MiniMax?

[Fidel Fernandez]

I did consider the MM16, the problem is almost $1000 more than the Hammer. The weight is also a consideration.

[David C. Roseman]

Yes, that is the price, plus deliver and tax makes it to 2500ish. I live in Texas and they have an office in Dallas so I have to pay sales tax.

Fidel, even if they didn't have an office or warehouse in Texas, I wouldn't put weight on whether a vendor collects Texas sales tax or not. Even if they didn't, you'd still be obligated to pay the equivalent in use tax, so it's a wash. http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/use/ Same thing in all but a few states. Unless of course you qualified for some exemption. On a big ticket purchase like heavy machinery that is trucked in from out of state, the state and local tax folks especially watch for it.

David

[Scott Stafford]

I've been told that many of the components are manufactured by Quingdao. This is not to cast any inflection upon the quality of the product. It seems worldwide you get what you pay for.

Maybe this substantiates it a bit: http://woodfast.com.cn/ProductView2.asp The products do look much alike.


Scott in Montana

[Peter Kelly]

Told by whom? A Felder rep? To me the Woodfast saws look more similar to Grizzly (http://grizzly.com/products/19-Extreme-Bandsaw-3HP-Single-Phase/G0514X2).

[Chris Parks]

I've been told that many of the components are manufactured by Quingdao. This is not to cast any inflection upon the quality of the product. It seems worldwide you get what you pay for.

Maybe this substantiates it a bit: http://woodfast.com.cn/ProductView2.asp The products do look much alike.


Scott in Montana

Substantiates what, told by whom? if it were true that Felder sourced from China I am sure it would be common knowledge and spoken about widely. I would not find it surprising to find they sourced from Eastern Europe as a cost saver but I haven't seen any proof of that either.

[ian maybury]

Chris - you've weighed in on this issue before. It's been aired at length in forums before.

Why do you keep on taking up the cudgels on it? What's your stake/angle in all of it?

[Chris Parks]

Until someone puts positive proof on the table and BTW feel free to do so, I will keep questioning the assertions of Asian manufacture. I have no agenda and could not care less where the Hammer or the Felder line is made but I find it a bit hard to swallow unsubstantiated allegations of this kind without any proof. Do you want to put the proof on the table? if someone does not do that then it is a false allegation. Be my guest and front the proof in writing with solid references to Asian manufacture, until then as far as I am concerned they are made in Europe. I own both MM and Hammer machines, both brands are excellent regardless of where they are made. Solid proof is not unsubstantiated stories of I know someone or my mate has an uncle who saw a machine in a Chinese factory.

If there is no substantial proof there is no point in continuing what is a pointless discussion.

Ian, you will notice I do not refute the made in China claim I only ask for hard proof.

[James Nugnes]

My post is not intended to question the OP's decision. I think he has made a fine choice of manufacturer.

I am wondering if the problems reported for the Laguna 14/12 related to early production runs off an Asian CM. My experience with Asian manufacturing of US or Western World designs has been "good luck getting them to adhere to either your specs, your spec tolerances, your assembly instructions or written SOP's" and manufacturing notes. They will do as they please until that has been proven ineffective regardless of what they signed up for at the initiation of the contract including sourcing parts and sub assemblies from their buddies as opposed to the sources you thought you were insisting upon. The point is they force you to find where they are varying from the written specs and contract requirements, call them on it and insist that the resulting issues are costing you business. The usual first response is extreme agitation at your having called a spade a spade and insistence that the color white is white and the color black is black. Once you get past that you usually get what you need/want and thought you were signing up for at contract award.

I suspect that has been a good deal of give and take between Laguna and whoever is manufacturing over there for them. I do think I have noticed the numbers of complaints regarding the 14/12 have been fewer in the more recent production runs and even notice some changes in the saw (a set screw for the fence rail allowing to be adjusted to the table for example).

So has anybody had repeats of the oft mentioned, impossible to level table, impossible to adjust fence rail, misaligned doors, hard to assemble wheel assemblies etc etc in more recent deliveries?

[Chris Parks]

I have a manufacturing base in China and if we do not go over and check each shipment before it leaves we have QC problems which need rectification in Australia. We really need a full time supervisor there but the size of the operation makes that unrealistic.

[Scott Stafford]

I have a manufacturing base in China and if we do not go over and check each shipment before it leaves we have QC problems which need rectification in Australia. We really need a full time supervisor there but the size of the operation makes that unrealistic.

Yes Peter and Chris, I was told that Hammer sources parts from China by a Felder representative. I don't find it any inflection upon the quality of the finished product.

Look inside any product you may own and you will find it to be a global device. Look inside your television and you'll most likely find components from a dozen nations. Take the back off of your dishwasher, same thing. Raise the hood (bonnet) on your automobile. Look at the zipper on your coat; the buttons on your suit.

I too have sourced Chinese products for my business without incident since the 80's.

May I reiterate that no matter where you buy in this world, you get exactly what you are willing to pay for.


Scott in Montana

[Erich Larson]

Maybe this substantiates it a bit: http://woodfast.com.cn/ProductView2.asp The products do look much alike.


I don't know if Hammer sources parts in China or not. But it would be surprising to me if there was no Chinese content in ANY given modern machine. Even a Bentley. But final assembly in Austria though is a big deal. Those guys have a long history of quality.

Resemblance in a photo between two manufacturers means nothing. Copying of physical appearance is rampant in China, to the point where there was a complete copy of Disneyland outside of Beijing and complete fake Apple stores full of fake Apple product in Chinese malls.

As far as bandsaw choices I would go for the N4400 if I couldn't afford an MM16. From what I understand the price difference is small from the N3800 and the N4400 is a definite upgrade.

[Vince Shriver]

Chuck, where did you see that? I can't find the prices for the Hammer machines, nor an outlet at where they are sold.

[Fidel Fernandez]

Chuck, where did you see that? I can't find the prices for the Hammer machines, nor an outlet at where they are sold.
You have to register to hammerusa.com and you will be able to see the price. You have to call them to order the bandsaw it is the only way to buy one.
See in the picture posted and you see the price.

302864

[ian maybury]

The particular issue is one that has led to lengthy discussions at least several times before on forums Chris - there's very little likely to be said here that hasn't been said several times already. It depends on what you classify as 'proof', but I'm not sure how a potential customer or owner (or amateur commenting on a forum like this) can realistically obtain 'proof' - or be required to - on a matter like this anyway.

It's not like our modern world or indeed industry is famous for the accuracy of its marketing claims, or that we're provided with rock solid data by makers by which to make our buying decisions. We end up forced to make most of them based on trust, hearsay and perception, and to proceed based on the most complex of trade offs and judgements. It's often a case of jumping into the dark...

I'm not a fan of the presumption that a one size fits all made anywhere in particular label implies quality or anything else - it's surely the worst sort of generalisation. I'm much more interested in the reality of the actual product supplied, and what it delivers at the price point relative to what is regarded as the norm. Which is why i'm consistently bemused at the reaction this topic seems to cause. Even more that it might be used as a part of a marketing pitch.

So +1 that 'made in anywhere' as a label is pretty much meaningless these days. The reality tends in the end to be down to bureaucratic and taxation driven hairsplitting and rules about poportion of local labour content - which in many cases need not amount to very much. Add in the possiblity of large variations in local content between machines within and across several ranges and broad generalisations become effectively meaningless.

Such a label may by some particular set of rules be technically true, but the reality is that in most manufactured products we're dealing with a potentially hugely complex continuum of labour and other input sources - with the result that a seemingly simple yes/no call is highly unlikely to come anywhere close to describing the reality.

If a manufacturer makes a marketing claim then it's in an environment like this then surely for them to substantiate it in the event that it's questioned? (sauce for the goose and all of that???)...

[ian maybury]

To the OP. Another here with no experience of the N4400 or the alternatives, but who has heard lots positive about the ability of the saw and the value it delivers at the price point - from a number of people with a history of generating reliable feedback.

It seems to be advisable not to overdo the blade width, and to ensure that it's thin enough that it won't suffer fatigue from bending over what are relatively small wheels. There's been discussion on the FOG (Felder Owners Group) group on Yahoo on the saw and on this topic...

[Erik Loza]

Since the MM16 (S400P) was mentioned, I will say this and people can do with it what they want: In 10+ years of selling that machine, I have never had one customer tell me they regretted spending the money. Zero, not one. Just like I have never had one customer tell me that it was "over-priced" for they got. On the other hand, the number of guys I talk to who "settled" for something else, and I'm not talking about any particular brand, who told me a year or two later that they are are just "making do" with their machines, followed by a *sigh*. Well....

My wife and I recently bought a new Mini Cooper. I personally wanted to save some money and get the Base model but she was insistent on the souped-up "S" model, which was several thousand dollars more. Since it would be more her car than mine, I said OK and we got the "S". You know what? I'm glad I did because I drove the Base not too long ago and it was anemic. I wouldn't want one at any price. And I just love driving her car now. Point being, I didn't know what I didn't know before I actually owned and used one and if I hadn't ponied up on the front end, would have been one of those guys who "just settled" and just "getting by with my decision". The problem with all that, of course, is that once you spend that money, it's done and you are married to that machine for better or worse.

I'll never tell anyone what to buy but will gladly tell anyone how many stories of regret I have heard over my ten year career of selling bandsaws. You can never have to big or too heavy a bandsaw. Best of luck to the OP in his search.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[David Kumm]

For what it is worth ( likely not much ) I've owned a bunch of bandsaws and there is no free lunch. There isn't that much profit margin in the machine so generally a $2000 saw is better built than a 1500, 2500 better than 2000, you get the picture. Everyone has to decide what makes economic sense but don't expect a saw of lesser price to outperform a more expensive one. Whether the saw has Asian or eastern Euro parts or assembled in Italy or Austria, ability follows price to a great degree as the market is very competitive. The only real price difference may come on a full Chinese saw but that is becoming less and less. Dave

[David Ragan]

Just a note from an amateur hobbyist
i am completely satisfied w my MM-16....im quite sure i dont use its potential.
that said, my little beat up 12" Craftsman gets used a lot; got it free (someone threw it out, my BF fixed it), blades are cheap, etc
my point-get the big saw; u can always pick up a smaller one later if you have the room

[Chris Parks]

The particular issue is one that has led to lengthy discussions at least several times before on forums Chris - there's very little likely to be said here that hasn't been said several times already. It depends on what you classify as 'proof', but I'm not sure how a potential customer or owner (or amateur commenting on a forum like this) can realistically obtain 'proof' - or be required to - on a matter like this anyway.

It's not like our modern world or indeed industry is famous for the accuracy of its marketing claims, or that we're provided with rock solid data by makers by which to make our buying decisions. We end up forced to make most of them based on trust, hearsay and perception, and to proceed based on the most complex of trade offs and judgements. It's often a case of jumping into the dark...

I'm not a fan of the presumption that a one size fits all made anywhere in particular label implies quality or anything else - it's surely the worst sort of generalisation. I'm much more interested in the reality of the actual product supplied, and what it delivers at the price point relative to what is regarded as the norm. Which is why i'm consistently bemused at the reaction this topic seems to cause. Even more that it might be used as a part of a marketing pitch.

So +1 that 'made in anywhere' as a label is pretty much meaningless these days. The reality tends in the end to be down to bureaucratic and taxation driven hairsplitting and rules about poportion of local labour content - which in many cases need not amount to very much. Add in the possiblity of large variations in local content between machines within and across several ranges and broad generalisations become effectively meaningless.

Such a label may by some particular set of rules be technically true, but the reality is that in most manufactured products we're dealing with a potentially hugely complex continuum of labour and other input sources - with the result that a seemingly simple yes/no call is highly unlikely to come anywhere close to describing the reality.

If a manufacturer makes a marketing claim then it's in an environment like this then surely for them to substantiate it in the event that it's questioned? (sauce for the goose and all of that???)...

So, no proof as I thought so no discussion worth having. I would regard proof as being something along the lines of a statement from Hammer confirming the assertions or a production line or shipping photo verifiable as being taken in China. I did a search last night and read some old discussion on this subject with admissions of casting tables being made in China from the MD of Felder. That is proof of some sub contract work being done in China but it is not as some here and in other fora a production line producing thousands of complete machines which seems to be the assertion of some people. As Eric and I myself know, these days of international sourcing makes for some interesting bed fellows when it comes to large scale production.

[Erik Loza]

... There isn't that much profit margin in the machine..

Very true statement ^^^^

I won't give specific numbers or percents but let me say this: There is no money in European-built bandsaws unless you sell A LOT of them. Bandsaws are unquestionably the lowest-margin item in our entire lineup. It's definitely a volume-driven market if you want to make any money at it.

Why do some vendors really push branded accesories like special fences, guides, outfeed tables, etc.? Because THAT is where the profit is. It's like going to the movies: Theatres don't make money off the movie. They make money off the popcorn and soda you buy.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Scott Stafford]

This seems to be very important to you Chris. Why don't you call your regional Felder/Hammer representative and ask about their foreign affiliations.

Get back to us and let us know what they say.


Thanks.

[David Kumm]

This seems to be very important to you Chris. Why don't you call your regional Felder/Hammer representative and ask about their foreign affiliations.

Get back to us and let us know what they say.


Thanks.

Euro companies are hard to nail down as to origin of parts and even some labor. I've gotten different answers from different people in the same companies so good luck. The accountant in me says that when dealing with the lowest price point models from any company, I have to hope some things are sourced in Asia. Otherwise the cost cutting , although harder to spot, will likely be even more significant to the long term service of the machine. Companies should educate us as to their quality care supervision and monitoring rather than source of origin ( or hiding same ). Dave

[Fidel Fernandez]

I don't understand why I would need proof the bandsaw is made in Asia or not. I didn't say it is lesser quality or better quality.
These are my only personal guidelines. Anybody else can have theirs, and my goal was to have an Italian Bandsaw period. I cannot have it so I am looking to the Asian Market that can give me certain quality and dependability.


This is my hobby, I enjoy working with wood because relaxes me. My profit from woodworking is -100% (Yes minus 100 percent). It is just an expense and I decide what my budget will be.
I had a Rikon and I hated it so much because I spend more time setting up the machine than actually woodworking, it was frustrating. Yes, I saved money when I bought it, but there is not the quality that I expected. (another personal perception, that might not apply to others).
I could make it work as the finest bandsaw if I wanted, but I had to put more money and time on it. It is not worth it for me.
I am planning to move out of Texas in the immediate future, so my dilemma is to buy now and save some money before the price increase or wait until I reach my new state and save on transportation if any. That is the reason weight is important to me.
I want to have a bandsaw where I can do some woodworking and not fight the machine, probably even the Laguna 14 SUV will last me a long time or my life time.
I don't have any production schedule and I don't have timeline to finish my projects.
The difference is I don't want a headache. Will I be happy with the MM16? Probably. Will I be happy with the Hammer? Probably.
Overprice is a personal point of view. A Ferrari is overpriced for my point of view, it doesn't provide anything to me to support that many thousands of Dollars. Many rich people see that as a status thing and it is not overpriced for them. It depends on your point of view.
I might buy the MM16, but I would have to use a credit card and it is beyond the budget that I had planned to have.
I don't have any doubt that is the standard where other Bandsaw are measured and it is the golden ticket if you have it.


So, what I can get from all the discussion is that I should go with the largest, heavier Bandsaw that I can afford. Point well taken, but my question is Why?
Could you guys elaborate on that point?
So I am even thinking of the Minimax S45N which is a 18 inches with a 2.5 HP motor.
Just remember that I am a hobbyist.

[Erik Loza]

Dave, I worked on then-new Centauro bandsaw a few years ago back had a Korean upper wheel bearing. It came from the factory that way but to the best of my knowledge, Centauro is one of the few who is still doing everything in-house. That machine never had any issues and I never really get bearing complaints to this day but did think that was curious. And there was that snafu some years back where the German manufacturer we were using had gone to China for their switches and did not tell anyone on our side. The "what if we made a Chinese bandsaw for you?" question got asked to us back in the Texas days and we said "No way".

It's not that any of us had philosophical problem with Asian-built machines. It was just that we had dabbled in the "budget" bandsaw market with one of the small Mebers and then the Centauro E16 and none of us wanted to try to compete in that market.

Actually, maybe if we went to Asia, we could get a halfway decent user's manual for our MM's.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Peter Kelly]

I don't understand why I would need proof the bandsaw is made in Asia or not. I didn't say it is lesser quality or better quality.
These are my only personal guidelines. Anybody else can have theirs, and my goal was to have an Italian Bandsaw period. I cannot have it so I am looking to the Asian Market that can give me certain quality and dependability.


This is my hobby, I enjoy working with wood because relaxes me. My profit from woodworking is -100% (Yes minus 100 percent). It is just an expense and I decide what my budget will be.
I had a Rikon and I hated it so much because I spend more time setting up the machine than actually woodworking, it was frustrating. Yes, I saved money when I bought it, but there is not the quality that I expected. (another personal perception, that might not apply to others).
I could make it work as the finest bandsaw if I wanted, but I had to put more money and time on it. It is not worth it for me.
I am planning to move out of Texas in the immediate future, so my dilemma is to buy now and save some money before the price increase or wait until I reach my new state and save on transportation if any. That is the reason weight is important to me.
I want to have a bandsaw where I can do some woodworking and not fight the machine, probably even the Laguna 14 SUV will last me a long time or my life time.
I don't have any production schedule and I don't have timeline to finish my projects.
The difference is I don't want a headache. Will I be happy with the MM16? Probably. Will I be happy with the Hammer? Probably.
Overprice is a personal point of view. A Ferrari is overpriced for my point of view, it doesn't provide anything to me to support that many thousands of Dollars. Many rich people see that as a status thing and it is not overpriced for them. It depends on your point of view.
I might buy the MM16, but I would have to use a credit card and it is beyond the budget that I had planned to have.
I don't have any doubt that is the standard where other Bandsaw are measured and it is the golden ticket if you have it.


So, what I can get from all the discussion is that I should go with the largest, heavier Bandsaw that I can afford. Point well taken, but my question is Why?
Could you guys elaborate on that point?
So I am even thinking of the Minimax S45N which is a 18 inches with a 2.5 HP motor.
Just remember that I am a hobbyist.Unless you're getting a massive discount, I'd wait until you've moved and have gotten settled in your new space before purchasing a new saw. If the saw isn't crated so it's laying down on the spine, they can be pretty awkward to move.

S45N is a great saw if you don't need to need to do a lot of very tall resawing. Very happy with mine.

[David Kumm]

Fidel, to your question of "why ", it ultimately will depend on how involved you get in the hobby. When I started I bought an ACM LT18 and though it would be enough to keep my happy forever. Just like the 8" jointer, 3 hp shaper, etc etc. My projects kept getting bigger and my interest in machinery eventually led me to a 20",30", and 36" saw. 12", then 16" jointer and hopefully when a great used porter shows up 24" jointer. My shapers are in the 7.5-10 hp range now. As your needs ( and sometimes skill ) grow, machines you were once satisfied with become increasingly mediocre. Doesn't mean you should assume you will always need more, just realize it might happen. I started with what I thought were higher end new, later realized those were just average, and migrated to high end used commercial sized machines. Time changes your goals. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

I'm scratching my head regarding this discussion. Fidel has mentioned on several posts that wood working is a hobby, that he has narrowed his choices, that he is budget conscious. Why is he being pushed up market? Why does he need 5HP with 16" resaw capacity? I haven't used any of the saws in the original question, but I have used a few bandsaws, and for what he has indicated his present and near future use may be.....I say they all work. I'd probably go with the Hammer, because I hear their customer service is better, and I've bought from Laguna before. And Id get the biggest one your budget and shop size can afford, some weeks an extra $500 in my pocket means the world. Nough said?

On the minimax 16 thing.......its a fine saw. Ive used it right to the edge of its capacity and wished I had 75% more saw, but that would have cost my employer 100% more at least. Its the best small saw in its price range...and to translate that...bigger saws are better, spend more and you can get more saw, but you wont likely get more saw IMHO for less. So if you need that much saw, buy one. If you need more, buy bigger, need less.....you get the idea.

On other notes...if you are into heavy resaw, I'm pretty convinced at this point that the 16" saw is not the size you want. The wheels are too small, bands break prematurely due to the tight radius, not all blade manufacturers mind you, but some, and the 16" throat makes me crazy. Maybe 20 guys will jump on my back and scream "I do heavy resaw with mine", and then I'll have to ask how many BF/week of veneer are you making, we will have a stick chucking contest...there will be no winners. Suffice it to say that this mans opinion is that heavy resaw capacity for vertical machines begins at 20", below that there are compromises which most users will be more than willing to accept given the costs invoiced, its no panacea. But the suggestion that the 16" MM is the gold standard is one I reject. It is probably the best small saw available, and at a price point many can accept. Those carter guides it ships with presently......I would like to smelt them, smash them....fill a pillow case with them and chase the guy who decided that was a good idea around a small room. The old euro guides were so much better IME I can't imagine why they switched. Total knuckle buster. Do they still have the euro guide option? If you are a 1 saw shop and have to change blades frequently, I suggest you put hand on those carter guides before purchasing, learn what you are getting into. The set screw for the bottom thrust bearing guide is in a place where you almost can't adjust it without slicing your knuckles open on a resaw blade.....brilliant! Do you enjoy bleeding? Why the bleep bleep bleeping bleep isn't that set screw on the side where you can reach it rather than underneath and behind the blade where you can not? I ask because I see Eric has been here.

[Chris Parks]

This seems to be very important to you Chris. Why don't you call your regional Felder/Hammer representative and ask about their foreign affiliations.

Get back to us and let us know what they say.


Thanks.

Why should I? I am not making the assertion so I don't have to prove anything. I suppose what gets me going is the internet is full of BS all unproven and this is just one of those stories that has been floating around to my knowledge at least five years and never in that time has anyone proven that Hammer machines are produced and assembled in China. There is a letter from the MD of Hammer floating around that explains the Felder/Hammer position and it may as well be written by a politician because a truck could be driven through the gaps. At no point in the letter does he positively refute the assertions which I find curious because I am sure they source some stuff if not from China maybe Eastern Europe. That does not mean that the machines are wholly made and assembled and exported as a complete machine from China.

A link from previous discussion on this which also went nowhere, it purports to show one single partly assembled machine in a factory somewhere.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?21650-Do-they-still-make-quot-Hammer-quot-equipment

The letter copied from another forum......

I want to clear up a couple of things that have been put forward at the FOG lately about where HAMMER machines are being produced.
Since the introduction of HAMMER in 1997 several competitors alleged that HAMMER machines are build in the Czech Republic, Bulgarian and lately also in China.
It is true that not all components are produced at our factory. For example we had to close down our foundry in 2000 because it was too small for the volume we needed and we did not have any space left to expand. However more than 95% of the components of the HAMMER range are being produced and assembled at our factory in Hall in Tyrol, Austria. And most importantly, all machines have to pass through our quality control. I have posted some picture in the Photos section that show the assembly of the HAMMER machines at our factory in Austria.
We also reserve the right to outsource HAMMER components globally in order to offer the best value possible. This was the case with the limited edition models SP3. We have outsourced several components to a well respected supplier in China. However the finals assembly and the production of the most critical components (fences, electrics, gear drives, knife system, …) was done at our factory in Austria. The outsourcing of these components allowed us to offer the SP3 at a greatly reduced price. The limited edition model SP3 was based on the construction of the A3-31 with some changes and new additions. Also we were testing the market with the new HAMMER colors.
Since then we have introduced the new HAMMER range in the new colors and other new technical features like a new sliding table, new fences and improved saw and shaper units. Due to the success of the SP3 we continue to use several outsourced components on the new A3-31. This allows us to offer the A3-31 at a bargain price. The rest of the HAMMER line continues to be manufactured entirely in Austria.
If any customer still has doubts about the HAMMER range being produced besides the FELDER and Format-4 machine at our factory in Hall in Tyrol we would like to welcome him/her to see our factory with his/her own eyes.
Best Regards
Wolfgang Geiger
Product Manager, FELDER Group


That was posted in 2012 but I have no idea of the original publishing date.

[Erik Loza]

Peter, I've had a few guys tell me they hate the Carters, had more guys tell me they view them as desireable, but the vast majority of my guys just don't seem to have an opinion one way or the other. I'm not saying that to dismiss your complaint, just saying what the feedback has been since 2012.

I've never used "guides" as a selling point for exactly that reason: You never know what the user's preferences are going to be. Yes, you can buy Euro guides from Parts Pronto and I believe Felder sells them as well.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[ian maybury]

To Fidel's choice. It's as ever a trade off and a judgement call, and not having used the machines or being familiar with his needs it's hard to be specific. The problem we all run into though is the classic immediate budget/requirement versus is it worth stepping up a bit more to cover some longer term possibilities call.

Feedback as before seems to suggest that the N4400 delivers good bang for the buck. That while being cheaper/smaller/lighter and likely to/reportedly having significantly lower limits than the likes of the Minimax or the big Italians in terms of ability to tension blades and handle a reasonable amount of resawing it doesn't do badly. It isn't high precision work, and so says less about capability on e.g. veneers (looks promising) but this chap certainly likes to work his machines - looks like it may be green timber too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5wBG1Mp3IY It's possible judging by the squeal (= onset of vibration?) coming into the sound at times that the saw is on its limits for the set up.

This is another very interesting piece where a Swedish gent sets out to run a 1in Woodmaster CT carbide blade on his N4400 for resawing: http://www.swedishwoodworking.com/articles/upgrading-the-blade-tension-spring-on-the-hammer-n4400-bandsaw/ He succeeds with modifications, but not before discovering (along with another responder) that it's possibly taking the saw past its design limits. (look at the discussion in the replies below the main piece) Others may have experience, but thinner banded (tolerate tighter bends/smaller wheels) narrower width carbide blades like this one may be more suited to a saw at this level, stiffness and smallish wheel diameter: http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/lenox-tri-master-carbide-tipped-12-bandsaw-blades.aspx

I guess the larger and heavier build sets the limit of most heavy duty (there are often cheaper/lighter models of the same size saws) Italians that much further up the price/capability scale - wider blades (but check band thickness/suitability for your wheel size), low camber wheels (suited to wider blades/resawing) more tension (less risk of wander), greater depth capability, bigger table, faster rate of cut (bigger saws tend to run the blade significantly faster - always worth a look on the spec sheet) and power to match. Against that they require a special set up/guides to handle blades much narrower than 1/2in.

Even a relatively light duty purpose built resaw makes what we regard as heavy duty (16 - 24in heavy duty Italian models) seem like a toy where resawing is concerned: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj2srkTglmc&index=43&list=PLtXrvlMijGxvG8shhThn8Wad7119t8BN_ - but of course a bandsaw has a much wider range of capability. (profile cutting etc)

The best advice available (which repeats what others have said) may be that it's about deciding what your current and future needs may be, and positioning accordingly on the price/capability continuum. With the knowledge in the background that much of the fussiness we hear reported about bandsaw set up tends to follow from using underspecified saws for jobs they are stretched to do . Buying used can be a good deal in this regard, but may not suit. Horses for courses and all of that.....

[Brian LaShomb]

Wondering why you threw out the Laguna? When I read your list my first thought was the 1412. I've only seen great reviews. You might want to check out the current 'Tools & Shops' issue Of Fine Woodworking. They do a bandsaw comparison, with all the models you mention except the 4400. The Hammer 3800 in there, but it rates 'Poor' on guide post alignment. The Powermatic PM1500 is on my wish list for future upgrades. Of course, the Mini Max would be even better :D

[Fidel Fernandez]

I have found during my research that Laguna has good reviews and also problems. I guess the quality control is not there yet for them for the machines from the lower machines they sell.
They have consistent problems with the tables not being flat and other issues. It is like buying lottery, you don't know what you will get until too late. I don't want that headache, so I decided to remove them from my list.

I have learned in the past that I cannot trust any magazine whatsoever. I considerer those as advertisement paid for the companies. That is just my perception so nothing against any particular magazine.

[Erik Loza]

Dave K. brought up a really good point: Don't think about now, think about down the road. That's a recipe for screwing yourself and I've seen it countless times. I'm not saying this as a sales pitch for Italian saws but as a guy who has had this very conversation with prospective owners literally hundreds of times, so am pretty good at reading between the lines.

If a prospective owner tells me, "I really want this Italian saw but I just don't have the money right now or it's out of my budget", my suggestion to them is to either keep saving up for a new one or hunt for a used one to pop up on the open market. The key phrase being, "What I want". Because once that gets said, anything else is settling. That's not the same conversation as, "I only really need a 14" light duty bandsaw" and then guys trying to push someone into an industrial machine. I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, just saying that I have seen this exact same scenario a bizillion times.

Like they say: You're going to buy it sooner or later, anyhow. It's just a matter of much money you will spend to get there.

Photography is one of my hobbies and I own a really nice carbon fiber tripod and ball head. They were far from cheap. In fact, over $1,000 for both. They were ones everyone on the photography forums told me to buy and the conversation was a lot like this one: You can never have too sturdy a tripod or too good a head. But I spent probably $3K over the years to end up with what I wanted. Why? Because I thought I could "get by" with smaller/lighter/lesser setups over the years, so would buy one, find out what it could not do, then flip it at a loss and try a different one. All the while though, that Gitzo was the one I really wanted. But it was so darn expensive. So I just said "F-it" and bought it one day. That was more than ten years ago and this tripod has been all over the US with me. I have a ton of great prints in our house that I could not have gotten without it. Every time I pull it out of its sleeve, it's a pleasure to use. Sure it was a lot of money but I don't regret spending it for a second.

Point being, if you think you want something then you probably do and you should buy what you want because we shouldn't have to "settle" for our hobbies that are supposed to bring enjoyment to our lives. But it's also very easy to spend too much and still never be happy. At least for me. Just my 2-cents as always.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Fidel Fernandez]

This is another very interesting piece where a Swedish gent sets out to run a 1in Woodmaster CT carbide blade on his N4400 for resawing: http://www.swedishwoodworking.com/ar...n4400-bandsaw/ (http://www.swedishwoodworking.com/articles/upgrading-the-blade-tension-spring-on-the-hammer-n4400-bandsaw/) He succeeds with modifications, but not before discovering (along with another responder) that it's possibly taking the saw past its design limits. (look at the discussion in the replies below the main piece) Others may have experience, but thinner banded (tolerate tighter bends/smaller wheels) narrower width carbide blades like this one may be more suited to a saw at this level, stiffness and smallish wheel diameter: http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/l...aw-blades.aspx (http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/lenox-tri-master-carbide-tipped-12-bandsaw-blades.aspx)

Ian,

I read the same article, but I also notice something. It was posted on 2010 and it looks like the specs from the bandsaw has changed maybe because the launch of the N3800 and they have to make a difference between models more evident. The article mentioned that 20 mm was the blade width limit and he tried to make it work with a 25 mm (1 inch). The tension spring failed and he had to replace it.

The current spec from the N4400 from the manufacturer for the blade width is from ¼ to 1 inches. The N3800 is ¼ to ¾ inches.


One old manual found on Internet from 2010 mention the 20mm limit (¾ inches) for the N4400 but a most recent specs show this (see marked with blue Sägebandbreite) :

302928

[Erik Loza]

Fidel, I'm not commenting on any particular brand but from a design perspective, there is rarely a direct correlation between flywheel width and frame strength. It's like putting oversized tires and wheels on a truck. Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean the suspension is stronger.

Again, I am reading between the lines but what I am sensing is that you think you might want to be using bigger blades some say. If that's the case, it might be worth talking to someone who uses a big blade extensively on the machines you are asking about. I'm not talking about "Cut OK for a while", I'm talking "Use it all the time, really get the most out of the blade and confidence to keep doing that for as long as you care to. Particularly if you are talking about a carbide blade.

I can tell you, for example, that even though you can physically fit a 1.0" blade on our S45N bandsaw and I could even make a few test cuts that would impress folks at a trade show or for a video, the widest blade I recommend is 3/4" and I would personally not run a carbide any wider than 1/2" on that saw. It has nothing to with the specs on paper or the build quality of the machine: The frame and tensioning assembly just aren't designed to handle that kind of tension for any length of time.

If you plan to use a 1.0" steel blade for any significant amount of cutting or any carbide blade greater than 1/2" in width, these are the machines know will do well with it. In order...

1.) Centauro
2.) ACM "HD" line
3.) Agazzani, most of the time

Again, best of luck with your search.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[James Nugnes]

While i like the Laguna 14/12 I think Erik is right. I favored the 14/12 because I was willing to risk that I would be shipped one without the Quality issues reported as it was more saw than I needed as long as it was a good copy. Buying a higher end saw to protect against the possibility of getting a 14/12 with issues was not just more costly. It was a lot more costly and it appeared to me that the drop off on the other end of the 14/12 was substantial while at a considerably lower price point.

Laguna clearly knows how to make a bandsaw and knows what a flat table should look like. While they have clearly made what is for them some compromises in what is for a lack of a better term, a "Laguna Value line" I would seriously doubt they would accept shoddy quality on a long term basis. Their reputation would take the hit. Nobody sees 14/12 on the saw. They see LAGUNA in big bold letters.

Even with that there are some design issues that just seem flat silly. The fence rail from hell being the most obvious. I have not checked the length of the fence rail on the 14/12 against other Laguna fence rails. But I have to think Laguna pulled a part they were currently using elsewhere and dropped it onto the 14/12. Its length compared to the requirement is just plain ridiculous. Seeing it stick out both ends of the table as far as it does is honestly funny. What did they expect??....that it would serve dual purposes as an auxiliary handle! Either that or that big cast knuckle needed all that extra rail length just to accommodate its size. One of those bad ideas that follows another bad idea as they would have been far better served using the more diminutive guide rail hardware from the SUV if the cast knuckle is what forced the extra rail length. Whatever money they saved using that rail and knuckle system is not worth the criticism that will be leveled at them every time a salty, experienced woodworker looks at that thing hung out there in space like it is.

[Peter Kelly]

Fidel, I'm not commenting on any particular brand but from a design perspective, there is rarely a direct correlation between flywheel width and frame strength. It's like putting oversized tires and wheels on a truck. Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean the suspension is stronger.

Again, I am reading between the lines but what I am sensing is that you think you might want to be using bigger blades some say. If that's the case, it might be worth talking to someone who uses a big blade extensively on the machines you are asking about. I'm not talking about "Cut OK for a while", I'm talking "Use it all the time, really get the most out of the blade and confidence to keep doing that for as long as you care to. Particularly if you are talking about a carbide blade.

I can tell you, for example, that even though you can physically fit a 1.0" blade on our S45N bandsaw and I could even make a few test cuts that would impress folks at a trade show or for a video, the widest blade I recommend is 3/4" and I would personally not run a carbide any wider than 1/2" on that saw. It has nothing to with the specs on paper or the build quality of the machine: The frame and tensioning assembly just aren't designed to handle that kind of tension for any length of time.

If you plan to use a 1.0" steel blade for any significant amount of cutting or any carbide blade greater than 1/2" in width, these are the machines know will do well with it. In order...

1.) Centauro
2.) ACM "HD" line
3.) Agazzani, most of the time

Again, best of luck with your search.

Erik Loza
Minimax USAEven wrestling a plain old steel 3/4" blade on an S45 is pain in the butt. 1/2" has always worked fine for me even re-sawing 10" white oak and hard maple.

[ian maybury]

Not having tested the N4400 with any blade let alone a 25mm Fidel i can't comment on the data sheet - other than to point to the links in my earlier post, and to what Erik said above. For sure it will probably accept and spin the blade, but it may actually judging by some random reports about perform better (and very well for its price point) when resawing with a narrower and thinner banded blade.

Running a 25mm blade short term as he says is one thing, but adequately tensioning and keeping it in good shape/not over bending it longer term in less than the sort of heavy duty saws he mentions may be another.

There (speaking generally) can be subtle distinctions involved. e.g. I owned a non-Italian European made bandsaw before the present very satisfactory Agazzani NRA 600 - it was billed as professional quality and lauded by all and sundry in the local mags of the time. One of the less than pleasant discoveries I made with it was that while the maker was happy to specify the availability of 300mm depth of cut/max clearance under the guides and thus leave open the possibility that an unknowing buyer such as myself might presume that this was its resaw capability (technically absolutely true - and even valuable for somebody sawing up e.g. foam insulation blocks) it's practical max resaw depth in hardwood on the recommended blade turned out to be of the order of more like 125mm. This because by this point on a high strength wood the cutting forces (proportional to the no of teeth engaged) had become high enough to start to cause all sorts of squealing and chattering (high frequency vibration in the frame and blade), plus associated blade drift - and there simply wasn't enough spring tension available to tune it out. (if there was it likely would have damaged the frame) It performed beautifully up to that point...

No amount of tuning (and I spent over a week on it, spent a lot of money on a wide variety of blade types and tried every angle i could find mention of) made any real difference. Switching to a heavy duty saw (not even one of the US market resaw specials with the extra height under the guides and an even more heavily reinforced frame) caused all the hassle and set up sensitivity to dissappear. Given a reasonable set up it really didn't care about the fine detail and sounded happy - and it cut what felt like several times faster, and delivered a much better finish.

This isn't to say that you need a heavy duty saw, but it is to say that each 'level' of saw has its own peculiar set of real world limitations - and that they (in common with most woodworking machinery) tend to perform best and most consistently when the envelope is not pushed to the absolute max. Which means that it's normally important that we have a clear idea of what we will need out of it. If you truly need capability that's at the outer limits of what's claimed for a given model of saw then it's very likely despite the financial pain best to think in terms of stepping up a grade or two of machine.

The one thing we can be absolutely sure of in a market as developed as woodworking machinery is that (while there are duds/lemons about) it's exceedingly rare to get a free lunch. That a given price point (within reason) buys a level of capability. The N4400 seems actually to deliver very well in that regard, but it seems unlikely that it wears its underwear over its tights and defies the laws of physics….

[Fidel Fernandez]

Well, I bought the Hammer (Felder) bandsaw. N4400.

There are pros and cons after the transaction cleared out.

The machine is a dream, I can only compare to my previous bandsaws (Rikon and Grizzly 14"s).

I have followed the instructions how to set the blade and there is no drift on the blade. I have Lenox and Felder saws. The carbide saw works great.

I will build a tension blade gadget to find out the real settings on the bandsaw, so far so good no problem with the tension.

Machine is built really good, it is very quiet and no vibration. I have to get used to the lower table. Setting the lower guide is a challenge because they are very low (Did I mention it has a low table?).

You need to know that the slot for the miter gauge is not American standard so none of your after the market miters will work.
There are 2 options, buy the one from Felder or make your own.

The problem is with the company. Their logistics has many things to fix.
I requested 2 quotes, a brand new one and another demo used. I needed to figure out if I wanted to save money or save headaches. I went with saving headaches.

I ordered and requested a brand new one. "I got the used one" :eek:.

I was charged less and I thought that they didn't charged me Sales Tax. I thought that because they haven't started operations yet. They will open in Feb/2015 in Texas.

Well, they charged me for the used one even I ordered and signed the contract for a new one.

I had to go back and forth to prove that I ordered the new one and that one is not the one I was expecting.

The problem was that the used one was had some issues. The guides assemblies (not the rollers) were 100% offset. Meaning the upper guide bar is not tracking perpendicular, the lower system was fully to left, so the blade bend and touched the left of the hole where the throat plate goes.
The doors are bent, the upper door has a ¼ separation at the lowest point so it is very difficult to close it, but not impossible.
There was rust internally and in the table.
The machine obviously was not used for quite some time and it was not in any shape to work. I spent a few hours without any manual how to disassemble and put back together the guide system. The manual received is pretty simple, it showed how to adjust the guides to not touch the blade, but now how they are assembled. I am pretty good to find out how mechanically things should, but I don't like to do it.
That was the reason to buy a expensive machine, because I didn't want to do it.

They acknowledge they made a mistake and they asked me to pay the difference (new one vs used one). No shipment charges because it is their mistake.
I still waiting for my brand new bandsaw to arrive, and today is Jan 27 2015.

They allowed me to keep the bandsaw until they deliver the new one, so that is a good thing.

The sales guy told me there were a price increase on January first, that obviously was a sales pitch. It didn't happen. The problem is I am thinking to change my tools to european type of machines, but I will have a hard time going their direction again.
I consider that a lie and poor customer service.
I have never had a followed up call after the purchase so they don't care to maintain a happy customer base. They only care to sale the machines and move on.
I ordered a reducer from 120mm to 100mm (4 inches) for the dust extraction. It has not shipped yet and it is in stock.

[mreza Salav]

It really really bugs me why some companies with good products drop the ball when it comes to taking care of the customer. Mistakes can always happen with any company and any person but (not piling on any particular brand) there are brands that you hear more often than others about bad customer service.
Hopefully they take care of you at the end properly.

[John Sanford]

The sales guy told me there were a price increase on January first, that obviously was a sales pitch. It didn't happen. The problem is I am thinking to change my tools to european type of machines, but I will have a hard time going their direction again.
I consider that a lie and poor customer service.

IIRC, Felder, like quite a few companies, adjust their prices with the new year. In recent years, prices have generally gone up on European goods imported to the US. However, changes in transportation costs (falling oil costs) and currency exchange rate changes may have resulted in Felder not increasing the price in question, a decision that may have been made at the last moment, or not communicated to Felder USA until late. As a result, characterizing the pricing matter as a "lie" may be unfair. For the rest of the issues, well, it definitely sounds like Felder/Hammer USA dropped the ball, then let it roll out into the street where it was flattened by a passing skateboarder.

[Keith Outten]

Its my understanding that Felder is in the process of correcting the problems for Fidel.
Lets give them a chance to resolve problems with their customer before this conversation continues.