Yet another Bailey #5 question

[steven c newman]

Been going through this treasure trove of planes I got for christmas. A Jack plane, with the side cracked down to the mouth ( will have it brazed)has the following features to recommend it

Base casting: No ring around the front knob, and the knob is the "low" style. There is a frog adjuster bolt, there is three patent dates. Handles look to be Rosewood. Bailey is cast in front of the knob, No5 is cast behind the rear handle. Sole is smooth.
Frog: Has the tight slot for the center rib. Has a flat face. Lateral has STANLEY read left to right going up the lever, no patent dates. Wheel is the small brass type, with three rings of straight knurling.
Lever cap: Has the "new" kidney shaped hole, orange paint around the STANLEY logo. Has the Patent No 1018750 on it's underside.
Iron: Slot has the hole at the bottom. Has the weird STANLEY arched over TOOL & LEVEL CO logo with the address and usa below that, and it is stamped on both faces.

Japaning is at 80%, and a chip off at the toe.

Horn on the tote has a repaired crack. Line still shows, but it is solid.

This is a Type 11???? Or a pile of parts? Will try to get the crack in the casting brazed back together. It may wind up as a "User" instead of the type 19 #5 I have now.
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Sitting here behind the other jack plane I got, a Sargent #414,late model. IF you need better photos, let me know.

[steven c newman]

A few better photos
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There is a Patent Number under the lever cap
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The damaged areas, and the low knob. 302724
Sitting next to my much newer Type 19 #5. Slight family resemblence? As for that #414 Sargent?
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The days of the "Horseshoes" was long gone with this one. 302726Lever cap details

And, sitting with the Stanley
302727 at least, I can make a few shavings with the Sargent plane
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in some squirrelly grained white oak.

[Jim Koepke]

The #5 in the first post sounds like a type 11 with a part or two from different types.

Even though a brazed plane may work as good as any other people tend to not want to pay as much for them as the parts are worth sold separately.

jtk

[Paul Sidener]

Is the adjuster knob large or small? Small is type 11, large type 12 or newer. The cap iron looks like a replacement.

[steven c newman]

That be the smaller version.

User would mean it stays with the shop for my use. Not everything comes in with the intent to sell it back off. Have a Brazed Millers Falls 14 that works very well.

[Pat Barry]

Is that brazed, or welded? What do they braze it with? What do they charge you for a job like that?

[steven c newman]

Last one was silver soldered, by a friend of mine.

He is a Blacksmith/woodworker. Part of a group of friends that help each other as needed.

He tried the silver solder trick on a block plane last year, and it worked. He also did a Millers Falls #14 for me. I paid the shipping down to his place, when it was done, he sent it, AND a M-F #9 back. I refurbbed the #9.

[Mike Henderson]

This is just my opinion, but I won't put much money into a #5, even a type 11. Repaired planes are not worth much, even if they're well repaired. And #5's are really common. Unless the plane has some sentimental value, I'd part it out and buy an undamaged one.

Mike

[Tom Bussey]

With the value of a Bailey #5 what it is, I wouldn't even bother with it. Even with it clamped down it will pull at sometime and become out of flat. Either it was dropped or there was stress in the casting which could be why it cracked in the first place. I regrind planes for myself and sometimes for others and I won't do bother doing one that has been brased.

I would put it on a shelf, saves the parts in assembly, and use it as an excuse to go rust hunting.

[steven c newman]

With SIX other jack planes sitting in the shop
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Here is half of the jacks. There are three others besides the "new" #5. May keep the #5 T11 as a parts plane. Not really worried about how much it is worth, anyway. Just trying to make a "user' out of it.

Besides the #5 T-11, a Sargent #414 came in the same box. LATE model, no "horseshoe" adjusters. Even has a hanger hole....
Both of these new Jack planes were Christmas Gifts to me, aka FREE PLANES! And, there were six other planes in the Treasure Box that came in the mail....

[Jim Koepke]

I used to seek out planes like that for their parts. I have bought what looked like junk to be surprised by a good user. Usually my bid plus shipping would be less than $20. If I wanted to buy just a tote the bidding always went up more. Sadly the cost of the 'whole' is often less than the cost of the parts.

jtk

[Stew Denton]

I agree with the other folks. This looks like a type 11 to me. The iron logo description sounds like that used on the type 10 and first few years production of the type 11, and does not match any other at all to my knowledge. The low knob, three patent dates, and small diameter adjuster wheel all or consistent only with a type 11. Type 11s were produced from 1910 to 1918 according to my reading.

The lever cap is from a later plane type, and was not used until 1933 with the type 16. Thus an owner must have replaced a lost or broken lever cap with one purchased or scrounged at a later date.

You should be able to find another type 10, 11, or 12 plane body on Ebay for $10 to $20 or so. I think that all of these three types will match up to your frog and other parts on the type 11, and will have a very usable plane. Be sure to compare the current plane body to the picture on Ebay to make sure that they match. You need to do that because some sellers list plane parts on Ebay as "type 11" when they are not such and I have quite often seen errors in the "type" designation that they list. (Some sellers barely know a Stanley plane from an airplane.)

Thus, you can go rust hunting like Tom advises. If your friend will silver your plane for free, I would go for it. However, I also know that Tom has forgotten more about working on plane bodies than I will ever know. Thus, I defer to him on this, so think that things can be warped by this approach.

For what it is worth, I do agree with Jim that the parts of the plane on Ebay often sell for more than the price of a whole plane, and think that such would likely be the case with your type 11, and I would guess that the parts on your current plane would bring between $40 and $50 selling prices. (You might have to clean them up to make them look respectable for them to bring that much though.)

Stew

[Mel Miller]

Silver solder is expensive - why waste it (and time) on a common plane body that will never be worth anything? Listen to Tom about distortion from welding.
#4 & #5 blades, lever caps frogs, etc. are interchangeable which makes these very common parts (from the 2 most common planes) that are worth little on the market.

[steven c newman]

Well, right now, I have ZERO funds spent on this plane. Plane came as part of an eight plane Christmas gift. Eight planes, a fancy torpedo level, a Wood River angle finder, a T-shirt, and some books came to me stuffed into a large flat rate box. I repeat, all were FREE to me.

Seems too many here are more worried about how an item will resell, they forget about using the items. More about "re-sale" than about just use the blasted thing.

Checking on a "new" base right now, two are about $15 -$24. "correct" lever cap is in the $17 range, counting S&H. Haven't checkSolder, and a bottle of MAP gas. I have the rest of the stuff to do the soldering myself, along with a Blog/video from the friend that did my last base job.

Not like I don't have a Jack plane in the shop, since there are about ....six others...

[Mel Miller]

Haven't checkSolder, and a bottle of MAP gas. I have the rest of the stuff to do the soldering myself, along with a Blog/video from the friend that did my last base job.


Be sure you're looking at Silver Solder, not just regular 50/50 solder. Regular solder is not strong enough for this. It also requires a welding torch to apply. Personally, I wouldn't use silver solder for that repair as I don't think it's the best choice for that application.
Brazing (with brass rod using oxygen/acetylene) has been a common way to repair cast iron for years, and is easier than arc welding (electric).
You're still going to distort the casting like Tom said.
People here have offered you some good advice NOT to spend time trying to repair that most common plane. It doesn't make any difference whether you have "Zero funds" in that plane, or it came wrapped in a $100. bill - it's still a broken common plane.

[Jim Koepke]

People here have offered you some good advice NOT to spend time trying to repair that most common plane.

Even as one who suggested to not spend time on fixing what will always be a pariah, the challenge Steven feels to have his phoenix 'rise again' is understandable.

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

Be sure you're looking at Silver Solder, not just regular 50/50 solder. Regular solder is not strong enough for this. It also requires a welding torch to apply. Personally, I wouldn't use silver solder for that repair as I don't think it's the best choice for that application.
Brazing (with brass rod using oxygen/acetylene) has been a common way to repair cast iron for years, and is easier than arc welding (electric).
You're still going to distort the casting like Tom said.
People here have offered you some good advice NOT to spend time trying to repair that most common plane. It doesn't make any difference whether you have "Zero funds" in that plane, or it came wrapped in a $100. bill - it's still a broken common plane.
I've had very bad luck trying to braze cast iron. The problem is that cast iron expands so much that the item warps. Seems that you'd have to heat the whole item up to close to brazing temp before brazing the crack.

But maybe more experienced welders can do a better job than me.

Mike

[steven c newman]

Go to chiselandforge.com with Dave Bardin. Look up a video he did about a handplane silver braze, and an Aircraft Carrier rehab....

#1 tip on the torch, with a silver brazing rod. Done in three steps, corner first to lock the parts together, then a"puddle near the top of the crack, then the wee bit at the mouth. Then allow to cool SLOWLY.

[steven c newman]

Well, let some Loc-tite epoxy cure in the crack over night, Today, cleaned the base up ( for now) Cleaned the rest of the parts and put the plane back together. Found a correct lever cap in the "Spares" box.

May not take much hard abuse, doesn't really have to, I have others to do that. May sharpen the iron as a smoother. Might have a few panels coming up to try that out on...

Need cash for other issues around the house, so until those get resolved, I can just leave this as is for awhile. Later on, may look at a new base......

[steven c newman]

Test drive on some White Oak scrap
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Still needs a hone on the edge. Makes nice ribbons, though
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"Spares Box" even had a better lever cap
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Not too bad for a free plane...