Bought some Disstons...need some help!

[Richard Wolgemuth]

I bought several Disston saws while out yardsailing with the wife. I am just getting into Neaderthaling (a verb???) and don't have the cash for new saws so we went the vintage route. Honestly, I didn't really do too much homework before I pick several up, but for a dollar or two, can you really go that wrong? I have been pleasantly surprised as I have cleaned them up. Here are the two I need advice on: I found I picked up an older D8 28" and the handle is in great shape. Here is the catch: there is a kink/curve in the blade and a corresponding tooth missing (see pictures) I know a missing tooth isn't the end of the world, but I am concerned as to whether the kink is a deal breaker. I know there are guys who will "saw smith" it straight for $30-40 plus shipping costs. The question is whether the saw is worth that level of expense or is this something to chalk up to experience?

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The second saw is also an older Disston 12 (which is a good thing I think) at 24" and 10 tpi. As you can see in the photos the teeth (can you call them that anymore) aren't much there. Is this something a first time sharpener like myself can fix? Is it just a matter of jointing and refiling? As you guys can tell I am very new to all this, any wisdom would be greatly appreciated!
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[John Vernier]

Your big D8 rip saw is an excellent saw and worth getting it fixed up. I can't really speak to value but you won't find a better user. I have tried learning to smith my own saws but it is rather counter-intuitive and I would suggest practicing on less promising victims first. I think it is not an unreasonable candidate for sending to a saw doctor. Hopefully one will be able to inspect it and pass some preliminary judgement before sending you a large bill.

The no. 12 panel saw is an even better find- uncommon luck, really, if you got it for a couple of bucks. If the plate is straight it should be straightforward to file, but again I would recommend finding a couple of no-name, no-guilt saws to file first. I started sharpening my own a couple of years ago, and although I still don't get the prettiest results, I'm happy with the way my saws cut. Big toothed rip saws are the right thing to start learning on. 10 tpi crosscut isn't too bad if your eyes are good and your light is strong. You will probably want a 7-8 tpi cross cut saw for everyday rough cutting, and that would be a better saw to learn cross cut filing on.

Good luck. You're in for some fun.

[Stew Denton]

Richard,

John is right. I have quite a few vintage handsaws, and I use several of them that I have cleaned up and had sharpened. The D-8s are great users, and most of my users are D-8s. I think a good vintage D-8 is a premium saw by todays standards. I would not spend in the neighbor hood of $40 to have one straightened, though, because you can buy one in decent shape for less than that on Ebay part of the time. That said, if the kink is not too bad, it may do OK to use "as is," but a lot of the time that is not the case, but you ought to try it first, once it is cleaned up and sharp. I would not get rid of the saw, however, because if the kink is near the tip it is possible to convert it to a shorter saw and make it into a great user, once you have learned your way around saws.

I read up on straitening kinks from hand saws on the net, and even asked about it here in a post quite a while back, and had very good luck straightening and then putting back the blade in shape, so it can be done with out paying someone if you are good with tools and willing to pay the price to read up on it. You should be able to find that post in this section, but back 6 months or more.

The #12 is an entirely different matter. DO NOT try to re-tooth or sharpen that saw yourself, until you have quite a bit of experience sharpening saws and are good at it. That saw, if cleaned up and if having minimal pitting and a handle in good condition, will sell for at least $100 on Ebay, and I have seen them sell for 2 to 3 times that much. That is NOT the saw for you to learn on.

The 12 is very much worth paying someone to re-tooth and sharpen, but make sure that the guy knows what he is doing. I have had good and bad results having saws sharpened in the past, it just depends on how good the guy is. I am learning sharpening myself, and have had some very good success in my first efforts.

I have quite a few vintage saws, and have cleaned up and use a few of them, with the rest waiting to be cleaned up and sharpened. In my group of Disston saws I don't even have one #12. At a price of a buck or two you just bought the equivalent of a big steak dinner at a very fancy restaurant for the price of gum ball from a gum machine.

Stew

[Richard Wolgemuth]

Well, it is great to hear that my "learning experience" turned out pretty well. Unfortunately, the #12 does have what seems to me some bad pitting, however, I don't believe it will effect the cutting ability as it is towards the top of the saw and not so much near the teeth. Does anyone have an opinion, is this bad pitting for a saw? (again, pretty new at this)
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[Stew Denton]

Richard,

Based on what I can see from the photos of the #12, I think that the pitting is enough to reduce the price you could get for the saw on Ebay, but it still would go for some significant money, by my standards. However, I think the pitting is far enough away from the teeth, and minor enough that you still likely have an extremely good user. In my view this is still a very desirable saw.

Johns advise is also very good in my view. The big D-8 thumbhole rip saws may sell for more than the smaller ones, but I haven't studied up on that, so it is possible that the saw is worth more than I would have guessed and seen in the past. His suggestion on getting an opinion from a good sawyer before spending money seems like a good idea to me. However, from my reading, I found that in some cases even a very good and experience sawyer cannot always be successful in there efforts to fix every saw. Some of them even stated such on the net. Most of the time the good ones are successful, but you don't know.

When you get ready to clean up the #12, be sure to ask for advise here on the Neander forum. When I was young I cleaned up a saw or two, and made them good users, but wish I could do it over because today I would be more careful and know more. Because of this I would do a better job restoring them. You will get very good advise here on this forum.

Stew

[Jim Koepke]

The first post in the list of posts for the Neanderthal Haven is "Neanderthal Sticky Threads."

In that is a link to Neanderthal Wisdom / FAQ's:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?103805-Neanderthal-wisdom-FAQs

The first post in the FAQs has links to many other posts. Bob Smalser wrote a few on restoring saws and even how to get the kinks out. It is also known in sheet metal work as planishing. After all, a saw plate is a piece sheet metal.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

Don't think of these as monetary investments - think of them as quality tools at a bargain price.

Before you sharpen the teeth on the kinked saw, put on a pair of gloves and try to bend it by hand.
I like to lay bent saws on a flat surface (my benchtop, for example) and lean on the kinked section,
in the direction I want it corrected.

Lightly raise the handle end of the plate as you press with the heel of your other hand over the kink.

The objective isn't to get a dead straight plate - it's to get a saw that cuts straight.


*********

The D-12 is a prized saw, no doubt.

The fact is that you've got a couple bucks into it, and if you
pay a saw guru to sort it out - you still may not make a profit
if you resell it. I recommend keeping it for your own use.

The handle isn't shown in your photos - if it looks like the plate,
you've got a quality user, not a collector's item.

Be aware that costs for sharpening are considerable - files alone are expensive.

Matt Cianci posted a decent article in last month's Popular woodworking on the topic.
The current Bahco triangular files are very good, last long enough to manage several
saws and cost just under $10 each.

You'll need a vise to hold the saw plane, and decent shop lighting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9hYJXlLOME

[Richard Wolgemuth]

Thanks Jim, I have the same feeling. I am not interested in reselling these saws, just for use in the shop and I have been really excited to discover that these are good saws. My question as to the value of the saws was in regards more to the D8. I don't want to send a saw away to have $30-40 worth of work done if there is a decent chance that i will find another like it in decent shape for $15-20. Sorry there isn't a picture of the D-12 handle, it's in OK shape. Horn is still there but chipped pretty badly. But all in all, I think it will be a fantastic user. Are the bigger D-8 ripping saws (or saws of similar quality0 fairly easy to find in good condition?

[Mike Allen1010]

Hi Richard,

lots of good advice above. Couple thoughts on your questions

D-8 Thumbhole, particularly in 28" length are highly sought after- for good reason great users. Definitely worth fixing.

Per your pics, that kink isn't currently in "useable" condition. You need to straighten before using. Jim K's link to Bob Smaller's tutorial is the best place to look for instruction on straightening plates. Definitely not the easiest part of saw restoration. You'll need an anvil (or equivalent) and couple size hammers.

Jim M. is right -good place to start is with trying to straighten by bending against the bench top. This works well for gradual bends, particularly if you heat with a little boiling water. From what I can see in your pic, you're going to need a little smithing for that kink.

FWIW, I've got a fairly serious "saw problem", and for me smithing is not a 100% solution. You'll definitely be able to significantly improve what you have now. If it's your 1st. Attempt probably be tough to expect it will be perfectly straight. Certainly will be useable and excellent raw material, without risking damage to a rare, super collectable saw. I encourage you to give it a try if you're interested in expanding your use of hand saws (which I heartily encourage!).

The #12 is Disston's pre-1900 top of the line and IMHO, among best saws ever produced. The pitting is 100% cosmetic -won't effect functionality at all. I agree with Stew; teeth need re-profiling which is bigger job than just sharpening. You need to establish the desired geometry , spacing and set. Because of the quality/potential of #12 and the amount of work you need, you probably don't want to make this your first saw to sharpen.

IMHO an investment in having this saw sharpened by a pro will be repaid many times over with push down slippery saw slope : "Hey, I never knew a saw could cut this easily and accurately", followed quickly by "I'm going to need some more of these" ��.

All the best, Mike

[Richard Wolgemuth]

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts and input. It's nice to know I have a place I can go to get encouragement for my addiction; nothing like a couple of kind strangers to help push you down the slippery slope of tool collecting, restoring, etc. Any other comments, tips or suggestions are very welcome. Thanks guys!

[Andy J Smith]

I think I'm in the same boat. I must warn you, it may seem safe to limit yourself to not spending more than $5.00 on a saw, but it isn't.

This is just 'project rack', not counting the ones I have disassembled or my users. I don't even want them to be honest. I just feel like if I don't buy them, someone is going to paint a farm scene on the side.

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x16/AndrewJsfotos/d38022a9-0191-4d37-8198-50dc5e2df485_zpsc67f77b8.jpg (http://s182.photobucket.com/user/AndrewJsfotos/media/d38022a9-0191-4d37-8198-50dc5e2df485_zpsc67f77b8.jpg.html)

[Richard Wolgemuth]

Andy, that is awesome! :) OK, I am a little embarrassed: So I know I scored with the 12 and the D-8, I also picked (again for a dollar or two) an Acme 120. Appearently this is a good thing? The handle is in ok shape, the horn is broken off (but repairable). Is this another steal? And can they be sharpened? I read about the safety file, no set, etc.

[Stew Denton]

Hi Richard,

Sorry if I gave the impression that you should consider selling that #12, after reading the rest of the comments I realized that I may have given that impression. My only intent on listing possible values was to indicate that you have a very desirable saw in that #12, and from the other guy's comments realize that is also the case with the D-8. I only have one or two of the really big rip saws, as most of my rip saws are in the 26 inch length and none are thumbhole saws, so the D-8 would likely be a find for me too, had I been blessed enough to wander on to it.

I certainly would not sell the #12, and probably not the D-8 either, but would count my blessings and use them myself. You don't get very many chances to end up with a #12 at anything that I would consider a reasonable amount of money. (I personally can't see giving a $100 for any hand saw, because the D-8s I have do well enough, and would use the dollars on other tools I don't have. Other guys have said that the #12s do noticeably better than the D-8s however, and I have no reason to doubt them, and believe that such is the case.)

With regards to Mike's comments on kink removal, I don't have an anvil, but used what I (and likely others) have which is a piece of railroad rail. Make sure if you use such that you dress the surface lightly with a file to remove any small bumps that can ding the surface of the saw, as sometimes I have had trouble seeing all of the places that will ding the saw plate, particularly if the light isn't great as is the case in my garage. (I learned this the hard way.)

Regards,

Stew

[Richard Wolgemuth]

Stew, thanks so much for your thought. I think I might try to get my hands on a bent saw will little to no value and bang around on that before taking a wack at the D8. Depending on how that goes, I might just send it away to get straightened by someone who knows. I agree, I couldn't pay $100 for a vintage saw w/ rust. However, right now I say that I would never pay the new prices for the premium saws out there, but I am sure in time I will cave in and buy something nice and shiney...if for no other reason that to have a Cadillac handsaw to play with. :)

[Kim Malmberg]

Richard
Plenty of good advice has already been given so no need to repeat that. But just to add a few notions. A D8 thumbhole saw is one of the best rippers ever made, so yes it is worth keeping even if the kink needs sorting out. But since it seems you are a beginner in this particular field I would not advise you to start hammering out the kinks just like that - even if you read Bob Smalser's guide. I have dealt with several hundreds of saws and my attempts at hammering out kins have mostly been less than satisfactory. This might say more abut my abilities to understand the task and it might say even more about my skills. But my point is that hammering a saw plate without exact knowledge can lead to even greater problems. So my first advice would be to try Jim Matthews trick, but also add another one, which is to keep one hand on the handle and the other hand on the toe of the plate and then gently flex the saw plate in both directions as well as twisting it while bending. If the kink is not lessened by this you will at least know in which part of the saw plate your problem lies.

Another trick is to run a finger across the saw plate. If you have a bad kink your fingers should be able to feel it. And the fingers will be able to tell you exactly where that spot is. You can then mark the spot with a pencil or with chalk.

If you want to go the Smalser way if not saying one word against it, but it does require some knowledge and understanding of how hard a saw plate can be hit without causing more damage. What I am saying is that you might cause more damage if your technique, type of hammer or understanding is lacking.

Personally I have tried the hot water treatment a few times - and with good results. It requires a lot of caution but the results can be good.

A last notion. As much as I like a good rip saw of good length, 28 inch saws are not for everyone. You always have to measure your saw against the length of the operator, or more specifically, the length of the the arms and legs of the operator. I am 6 '2, but my upper body is proportionally longer than my lower, so I don't feel comfortable with a 28-incher, unless I can hold the rip saw straight out in front of me.

[Richard Wolgemuth]

Kim, thanks for the wisdom. I would certainly not try hammering on these saws. Perhaps a yard sale bargain with no value, but these will most likely get sent to someone who knows much more than I. I am primarily concerned with preserving these for years of use. I am 6' 0" and so I will have to give the saw a try and see how it feels. Thanks!

[Richard Wolgemuth]

Not to beat a dead horse but can anyone tell me anything about a Disston Acme 120, especially in terms of sharpening them? As I understand one needs a special file??? Can one be sharpened in the traditional manner, will that destroy any value, etc. ???????

[Jim Koepke]

Not to beat a dead horse but can anyone tell me anything about a Disston Acme 120, especially in terms of sharpening them? As I understand one needs a special file??? Can one be sharpened in the traditional manner, will that destroy any value, etc. ???????

Here is a site that should help with the Acme 120:

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/acmepage.html

Here is one with information on everything else you will want to know about sharpening:

http://www.vintagesaws.com/cgi-bin/frameset.cgi?left=main&right=/library/library.html

jtk

[Mike Allen1010]

The ACME 120 was made to be used with no set in "well seasoned, dry timber". The saw plate has an extreme amount of taper ground into it (thinner at the top line, thicker at tooth line) to accommodate this design. Typically used by very experienced cabinet makers for final finish cuts. Very rare and excellent users.

The original tooth geometry is unique - taller teeth, narrower from front to back. This helps clear the kerff in the absence off typical set. These work fine with typical tooth geometry, which is helpful as the only saw MD who does the original geometry is the master Daryl Weir. At one time he had a video on his site "Old saws restored", showing the 120 in action - pretty amazing.

Cheers, Mike

[Stew Denton]

Richard, You mention possibly buying a premium saw just to have your hands on a Cadillac. With all due respect, in my view you already have a better saw than any made currently, with the possible exception of a very limited number of custom saw makers, of which I think there is one on this board.

Beyond that, in my view the D8 is a premium saw, by todays standards, not up to the #12s, but still very good indeed and likely as good as any premium saw made today, again with the exception of the top custom makers, and you can find the D8s at a WHOLE lot less money.

Beyond even that, the "best quality"saw that you find at a typical GOOD lumber yard, one that caters to good professional carpenters, will likely not be nearly as good as the old Disstons, and further I would guess that any saw that you would find at a big box store will not even remotely approach the old Disstons.

To get a saw as good as the D8, expect to part with a pretty good chunk of change. It will be enough to buy several old D8s.

What I am saying is that I don't think any of the premium saws on the market today are as good as your #12 and probably no better than the D8s. I wouldn't buy any of them, again with the possible exception of the top custom makers, because, except for a new appearance you aren't going to gain anything.

There is a reason that the guys on the Neander Haven like the old Stanley planes, the old chisels of various makers, and the old Disston saws, and it is the same reason (that and collectors) that these same tools, if in good shape, sell for premium prices on Ebay...they sell for much more than their later counterparts. From what I have seen of the common planes, chisels, and saws, some of the best ever made were made between 1900 and 1930, and in some cases to the start of WW2.

Stew

[Richard Wolgemuth]

I hear you Stew. And I am a firm believer in the older is usually better mentality. When I said "Cadillac" I was referring to the custom saws you were talking about. Frankly, some of them are just beautiful. But I am a pragmatist and am unbelievably excited about the saws that I have found. I am really excited to get them restored sharpened and to work.

[Jim Matthews]

The #12 is Disston's pre-1900 top of the line and IMHO, among best saws ever produced. The pitting is 100% cosmetic -won't effect functionality at all. I agree with Stew; teeth need re-profiling which is bigger job than just sharpening. You need to establish the desired geometry , spacing and set. Because of the quality/potential of #12 and the amount of work you need, you probably don't want to make this your first saw to sharpen.

All the best, Mike

I own one of Mike's saws.
I intend to be buried with it,
if I don't wear it out in my lifetime.

He's too modest to mention it,
but he really does know what he's about.

He's also adept at rehabilitating saws like these.
(* hint *)

[Jim Matthews]

I hear you Stew. And I am a firm believer in the older is usually better mentality.

I wouldn't go that far.
These were mass produced, but by skilled tradesman.

Today's saw makers are every bit their equal.

It's their time that costs.

When you've got these sorted out,
buy a nice backsaw from our very own Ron Bontz.

His saws will sing, along with the old ladies you've brought home.

[Stew Denton]

Jim,

Good point, and I believe others have mentioned the work that Mike does. If I ever have the blessing of getting a #12 like Richard found, that needs some work, I would very likely send it to Mike. You don't find a saw like a #12 at a reasonable price very often, so if I ever do, I am not going to risk fooling with it myself. I have worked on my saws that are cheaper, but wouldn't take a chance with a #12.

In my view, a #12, or a saw like Mike or Ron make is a tool to enjoy for a lifetime.

Stew

[Jim Koepke]

I hear you Stew. And I am a firm believer in the older is usually better mentality.

My feeling is the older tools can mount a final performance indistinguishable from the performance of the best new tools of today.

Today we have improvements in metallurgy. There can be tighter tolerances in the manufacturing process. Rob Lee has included some new ideas in the making of hand planes.

When the dovetail is cut or the last shaving is made there really isn't any noticeable difference in the end product.

The cost of our new tools is likely about the same, hour for hour in wages, as it was to our forefathers.

Kind of funny when you think of it. That chisel your great grandfather bought in 1900 is today considered a bargain at 10 or 20 times what they paid for it new.

The fit and finish of a new saw from a maker like Ron Bontz is something anyone would be proud to own.

Sometimes the pride one has in their tools does translate into the quality of their craftsmanship.

In my own experience the pride of using a tool of my own salvage and restoration makes me want to do better.

One of the more valuable experiences from going to a tool event was using a saw one of the vendors had. He allowed me to make a few trial cuts with it. The value for me was it felt like one of my own saws that had just been sharpened. It let me know my saw sharpening skills were improving.

After all this rambling my point to Richard is this:

If you attempt to sharpen either of these saws or even a cheaper model found at The Restore or yard sale you will find it will likely work better than it did before you started.

After a while you may try a new saw from an expert maker and find it really doesn't cut better than what you have. At that point you may find you are only paying for the beauty of the fit and finish of a new tool. Sometimes that is enough reason to do it.

Not sure if we all do it, but I have.

jtk