Getting WiFi to shop

[Brian Hale]

Hey Yall

Trying to get WiFi out to my shop which is a separate building about 60' from the house and 90' from my Fios router. Running a cable would be the best idea but It would need to pass under 2 sidewalks, down and under a 4' retaining wall, under 25' of driveway and up 16' into the shop. The biggest issue with the shop is the insulation. I got a killer deal on 2" thick foam board insulation with foil attached to one side. $4 a sheet. I used this on all the walls which are covered with 1/2" OSB and also in the ceiling with the foil facing in as a light reflector. There are no windows facing the house. I can get 2 local radio stations in the shop and little to cell phone reception. Kinda like being in a beer can.

I'm guessing I need to run cable from the router to the end of the house nearest the shop and then setup some outside transmitter/receiver between the house and the shop. Does this sound right? Is there a reliable solution for this?

TIA
Brian :)

[Jerome Stanek]

why not try a powerline network

[Brian Hale]

Never looked into that..... How long a run can they make?

[Bruce Page]

From what I have read this is supposed to work well: http://www.amazon.com/EZ-Bridge-Lite-Power-Outdoor-Wireless-System/dp/B002K683V0

[Larry Browning]

why not try a powerline network
This would only work if the shop and the house are on the same service line. My detached shop is on a meter of its own, so it would not work. How about yours, Brian?
However I was able to to run a cat5 cable in a sealed buried conduit from the house to the shop. It has worked out pretty well, even though I have had numerous friends that tell me I am playing with fire having 2 separately grounded electrical systems connected. But hey, I like living on the edge! I always try to disconnect the cable before a thunder storm. I have only had one incident where I fried some electronics in over 10 years.

[Matt Meiser]

Larry APC makes an RJ45 surge protector. No guarantee it will work but it can't hurt. And yes you are playing with fire ;)

Brian, I did this successfully for a number of years before I ran fiber out to my shop when a contractor was going to be trenching for gas anyway. I used DD-WRT on 2 Linksys WRT54G routers back then, with ebay-sourced antennas. If G is fast enough you could source all the parts on Ebay in the $100-200 range. The one in the house acted as an access point while the one in the shop was in bridge mode which turned the wireless signal back into wired so I could connect my shop desktop and a backup drive.

I know X10's powerline stuff wouldn't reach my shop even though both were on the same service. No idea how that technology compares other than they both run over power lines.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

You can get a wifi repeater that will extend your network by bouncing off the signal and retransmitting it. You could do this as long as you have a place for the repeater that can have line of sight to the shop.

[Larry Browning]

Larry APC makes an RJ45 surge protector. No guarantee it will work but it can't hurt. And yes you are playing with fire ;)

Matt,
You and just about everybody I know tells me the same thing. But, I can tell you that in over 10 years of having this setup I have had only one incident where I lost equipment. Let's see I fried 2 or 3 network cards that cost me less than $30 for all three to replace, I lost a NAS, which really was a network card, but there was no way of replacing just the card cause it was built into the NAS, but I was able to salvage the hard drive in it, I did not replace it, but did put the drive in a different computer that I already had, so that was actually $0 to replace. It did fry a small book shelf stereo, but I replace that with one that a friend was going to toss. So , even though I lost several things, I was able to recover pretty well with a small cost. I might not be so lucky next time, but, hey, it makes life interesting!

[Matt Day]

I tried a couple of the wifi repeaters in our house and none seemed to do a darn thing. I ended up changing the channel of the router and my router worked better, probably interference from other networks and our baby monitor.
Sorry, no help to the OP, but I would consider renting a concrete saw and running a hardline.

[Don Jarvie]

Have you looked into router with a longer range?

[Robert LaPlaca]

Most reliable in my book, would be to run a Cat 5/6 from the FIOS router in a conduit into your shop, then configure a new wifi access point in your shop, the new router can be configured to turn off DHCP and reside on the same IP network as the FIOS router, as a additional tip configure the new access point on a different wifi channel than the primary access point..

[roger wiegand]

How about a high gain antenna http://www.amazon.com/Alfa-AWUS036NHV-9dBi-Magnet-Base/dp/B00LU48JTO/ref=pd_sxp_grid_pt_0_1 that can be mounted on the outside of the wall and fed to your router inside? I haven't tried it, but a high tech industry geek neighbor showed me how he could pick up hundreds of wifi networks up to 2-3 miles away using his homemade antennas.

I ran cat 6 wire in a conduit to a hub and WAP in the shop and it works perfectly over the 200 ft distance from the house. For the phone I put a Panasonic repeater http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003MOKUIS/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 in the front window of the house and keep the phone near the window in the front door of the shop. Signal is weak but seems to work well nevertheless.

[Larry Browning]

Most reliable in my book, would be to run a Cat 5/6 from the FIOS router in a conduit into your shop, then configure a new wifi access point in your shop, the new router can be configured to turn off DHCP and reside on the same IP network as the FIOS router, as a additional tip configure the new access point on a different wifi channel than the primary access point..
OP has said it was going to be a big problem to run a conduit from the house to the shop. Plus, if (as in my case) the electrical system of the shop is separately grounded, he will run a very high risk of shorting out (frying) the electronics that are connected via the network cable. I think he is looking for an acceptable alternative to hard wiring.

[Robert LaPlaca]

OP has said it was going to be a big problem to run a conduit from the house to the shop. Plus, if (as in my case) the electrical system of the shop is separately grounded, he will run a very high risk of shorting out (frying) the electronics that are connected via the network cable. I think he is looking for an acceptable alternative to hard wiring.

Larry, OP said that was looking for a reliable solution, plus the exterior building sounds like it is insulated such that the building insulation effectively shields RF, so it sounds like a RF based solution might be problematic. The UTP should be in a separate conduit. When does the high risk happen of shorting out equipment?

[Matt Meiser]

There's a high risk of lightning damage. That's why fiber is commonly used between buildings.

[Robert LaPlaca]

There's a high risk of lightning damage. That's why fiber is commonly used between buildings.

Obviously fiber is the best from isolation and distance..

[John Coloccia]

For $200 to $300, you can setup a couple of outdoor, directional wifi extenders to link the buildings. Since you've already said you don't want to run any cables or fibre, I don't see how there's any other way to do it.

[Bruce Page]

For $200 to $300, you can setup a couple of outdoor, directional wifi extenders to link the buildings. Since you've already said you don't want to run any cables or fibre, I don't see how there's any other way to do it.

That's pretty much what I thought when I posted the link in post 4.

[Mike Henderson]

OP has said it was going to be a big problem to run a conduit from the house to the shop. Plus, if (as in my case) the electrical system of the shop is separately grounded, he will run a very high risk of shorting out (frying) the electronics that are connected via the network cable. I think he is looking for an acceptable alternative to hard wiring.
I'm pretty sure that Ethernet requires a transformer coupling at each end of a point-to-point link. This is specifically for the situation where you may have differences in potential, such as could happen if the two ends are powered by different systems. The transformers electrically isolate the wire from the system potential. All that is passed is the signal - no DC.

Mike

[Here's (http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snla088a/snla088a.pdf)a link to a TI paper describing two methods of isolating Ethernet, one transformer and the other capacitor.]

[Brian Hale]

Good stuff guys, thanks

Running some direct burial Cat 6 is possible but the amount of work required to do it is quite high, so I'm willing to try other options first. Perhaps that's not the most cost effective method but.......

My shop is powered from the main panel is the house, 100 amp 220 volt, 3 wires 2 hot and a common. Shop has a grounding rod. Would I still run the risk of fry my components due to separate grounds with a Cat 6 cable?

I've seen a setup somewhere awhile ago that involved 2 small antennas, one on each building and the shop end would tie into a router. Can't for the life of find the system, or the name, but it looked workable and a lot easier than excavation. Is that the high power PtP Bruce posted?

I tried using a router as a repeater (incorrect name I'm sure) that I placed at the end of the house and got a good strong signal out side the shop, little to nothing inside.

[Ed Aumiller]

My shop has similiar problems except the fiberglass insulation in my house is foil faced...
What I did is to place the wireless router on a window sill facing my shop... as long as I keep my laptop near any window in the shop, get good signal..
Can even use wireless in RV parked with shop between house and RV...
Try putting your wireless transmitter on a window sill and see what range you get...

My son lives about 400' from my house and shop and can get his signals fine outside... but we set our wireless channels to different freq's...

Good luck...

[David Masters]

My shop is about 120 feet from the house. At some point I'm going to use repeaters as John and Bruce suggested. Until then, I use my cell phone as a WiFi hotspot for my iPad and laptop (when it is in the shop). It's a good temporary solution until the repeaters climb higher on the list.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

I use powerline ethernet to get from my satellite connection to my shop about 150 feet away. Currently I have 3 cisco powerline ethernet connectors and they have worked almost flawlessly. I have had to reboot them twice in three years.

I had some of the first powerline connectors, they weren't nearly as good. The newest crop is even better than what I have, cheaper, faster and different brands are interoperable.

Since you are on the same panel its by far the easiest approach. You plug one in the wall and connect an ethernet cable and them plug one in the wall of your shop. Some of the newer ones even include a wireless access point built in for the shop end!
Although most of the other ideas for remote transmission or cabling will work its very hard to beat the powerline ethernet approach

Disclaimer: I don't now and never have worked for any network hardware company.

[Jerome Stanek]

another option is a cantanna made from a Pringles can

[Jim Becker]

A repeater may work, depending on the signal strength your FiOS AP can provide out in that direction but I"m not getting the impression that's a possibility. But if that's not going to work, then the two best solutions that remain are hard-wired and a second AP or using something like the PowerLine solution previously mentioned. The latter is simpler to install quite obviously since it uses the existing power wiring out to your shop. You just need to insure that the 120v outlets on both ends are on the same "leg" of the 240v service. Hardwire is "the best" overall...and with a 100 meter (about 300 foot) limit, you'd be fine if you chose to trench, put in conduit and pull communication cable to your shop building for network and phone. A second WiFI AP could be installed out there for wireless dedicated to the shop.

I have minimal WiFi signal in my shop which is not too far from our home. That's also due to building materials...nature of the beast.

[Curt Harms]

I haven't used them but as long as the house & shop are powered off the same service panel wireline networking sure seems like the easiest. Do new wireline devices need to be on the same leg? This used to be an issue and there were devices that could be attached between the busses in the panel to supply network signals to both legs. If you're on a shared transformer, be aware that your network signal can be received by anyone being serviced by the same power transformer hence the need for encryption. The network signal cannot 'jump' the transformer.

Searching Newegg for 'outdoor wifi antenna' showed this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833164156&cm_re=outdoor_wifi_antenna-_-33-164-156-_-Product

It's directional and may not look bad if mounted on an exterior wall. Of course if you're feel McGyverish there's the cantenna option mentioned by Jerome. Google 'cantenna'.

[Doug Ladendorf]

Reading this thread I checked out the new power line stuff and it's come a long way. This looks like it might be a good solution for you (and me!)

http://www.tp-link.us/products/details/?categoryid=2244&model=TL-WPA4220NET#over

That should provide wifi within your shop.

[Mike Henderson]

I haven't used them but as long as the house & shop are powered off the same service panel wireline networking sure seems like the easiest. Do new wireline devices need to be on the same leg? This used to be an issue and there were devices that could be attached between the busses in the panel to supply network signals to both legs.
As long as you have some 240V circuits, the wire of the 240V circuit will act as a capacitor and bridge between the legs. The amount of capacitance is not large but at the frequency that the wireline networking works at, it's sufficient to bridge between the legs.

Mike

[Brian Hale]

Well I just ordered this.....

http://www.amazon.com/TP-LINK-TL-PA4010KIT-Powerline-Adapter-Starter/dp/B00AWRUICG

40 bucks seems like an inexpensive trial and if it doesn't work out I can send it back.

It should arrive tomorrow. Gotta love Amazon

Wish me luck!

Brian :)

[Jim Becker]

Good choice, Brian...and a very reasonable cost. At the shop end, you can either plug a computer directly into the device (multiples with an Ethernet switch) or plug a wireless AP into the device. Again, just be sure that both ends are on the same 120v "leg".

[Bill ThompsonNM]

With the new powerline Ethernet it's not necessary for them to be on the same leg for reasons cited above.

[Brian Hale]

Thanks!

I've got a D-Link DIR-655 router hanging around and my goal is to set that up as a WAP in the shop. I haven't built the shop computer yet but I should be able to use the wifes laptop the configure the router as an AP. Should have something going by tomorrow afternoon.......

Brian :)

[Jim Becker]

Just be sure you're not using the "router" portion of that D-Link. Turn off the DHCP, etc., in it so it doesn't interfere with your primary router and plug into one of the "regular" Ethernet ports, not the "WAN" port, if it has one.

[Alan Caro]

Brian Hale,

I'm not a WiFi expert principally because I've always had everything wired. However, presently, I have several systems on WiFi that are about 60' from the modem / router and separated by a floor and three walls. In my moderate experience, results seem to be more dependent on the nature of the objects separating the signal source and destination than the distance. I have a Linksys AE3000 dual band USB adapter which may be plugged into a USB port or set in a stand connected by a USB cable. Currently, set near an outside window, it is detecting 18 networks of poor, fair, good, and excellent- including someone's "HP 610" printer. I would say that the nearest external router would have to be at least 100' away and the next nearest 150'+, plus the additional walls and floors. My network is shown in Windows Network Center as running consistently at 144MB/s, though this is sometimes 130 or 117MB/s. My other systems use Linksys WPN600N PCI cards- there's a pair of little antennas on the back and these receive my network at 144 MB/s also plus usually about 8-9 other networks. I've had five of these and recommend them to anyone with a spare PCI slot needing WiFi. These are inexpensive too as they're obsolete, PCI and not PCIe- I just bought a really good one used on Ebahh for $7 and NOS ones are sometimes $18-25.

Overall, I think the combination of high gain antenna or similar as suggested by Roger Wiegan and a good USB receiving adapter that can be moved and oriented for best results- like the AE3000- might work in your situation.

The interesting thing in this thread is how many people face this situation as a problem and the number of experiments and different solutions.

Alan Caro

[Curt Harms]

Just be sure you're not using the "router" portion of that D-Link. Turn off the DHCP, etc., in it so it doesn't interfere with your primary router and plug into one of the "regular" Ethernet ports, not the "WAN" port, if it has one.

In addition to what Jim said, be sure the change the I.P. address on the second machine.. Having more than one machine with the same I.P. address is like having more than one house with the same address -- the 'post office' gets confused and nothing gets delivered. Actually, from a security standpoint it's not a bad idea to not have any 19.2.168.1.1 addresses. If I wanted to subvert someone's home network for my own nefarious purposes, where would be a good place to target? Yup, 192.168.1.1. And change the default username and password for the same reason.

[Jim Becker]

Good catch, Curt. One absolutely must be careful that the two devices are not sharing the same 192.168.1.1 or 192.168.0.1 default addresses that are typical "out of the box" from the router manufacturers.

[Larry Browning]

I sure hope Brian reports back on his results. I am very curious to see if he has success.

[Brian Hale]

Well despite Amazons Guaranteed Sunday delivery, i won't get it till this afternoon and won't get a chance to play with it till Tuesday or Thursday but i will post what results I get.

Thanks again for all your input!!

Brian

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Brian,

If you decide to "hardwire" by running the fiber, call around to some of the sprinkler systems companies.

When I retired, there were 4 things I wanted done to my house. One of those was to replace the galvanized domestic water line coming into the house as both the neighbors one either side of me had to replace their water lines already, one guy had to do it twice. I wanted copper.

A local sprinkler company had a machine referred to as a "mole" they dug 4 holes....one outside the basement wall at the new entry point....one at the corner of the house....one at about half way to the new control box....and the one for the new shutoff. The mole is pneumatic and it digs its way from hole to hole.....no ditching necessary. When it arrives at the next hole, a rope is passed through the ring it's nose, it's direction reversed and it pulls the rope back to the first hole. We used a rope to pull a cable......the cable was attached to a roll of 1" copper line....his Toyota truck pulled the new copper line. We didn't have to trench the drive way or the grass in the yard merely dig the holes big enough to get a man and the tool into hole. It was quicker,cheaper and less damaging than ditching.

The mole can go under your driveway....under the wall ..... it's worth the time spent researching.

[Matt Meiser]

If you have Prime, make sure to contact them and claim a free month of membership. The "guarantee" part of the guaranteed delivery date is that if they or their carrier misses a date, you get a free month of membership up to 12 times a year. Just chat with someone, give them the order number, and ask for the 1-month extension.

[Brian Hale]

That's interesting Matt, i didn't know that. I've had Prime since 2005 (i think) and this is only the second time a delivery promise wasn't met. I'll mention that when i call them

Thank you
Brian

[Brian Hale]

For those interested......

I didn't receive my order on Sunday as promised. I got a notification that it was delivered yesterday but it never arrived. Called Amazon and they are shipping another one that is due to arrive Friday and they extended my prime membership by one month.

Thanks for the tip Matt!!!

I hate waiting.... Must be getting impatient in my old age

Brian

[Brian Elfert]

I didn't receive my order on Sunday as promised. I got a notification that it was delivered yesterday but it never arrived. Called Amazon and they are shipping another one that is due to arrive Friday and they extended my prime membership by one month.


Sunday delivery? Are you in one of those areas where Amazon is testing Sunday delivery?

[Brian Hale]

Yes. Several times I've ordered stuff on a Saturday and found them on my porch before noon on Sunday. No extra charge.

Kind of cool but it raises my expectations which leads to disappointment :)

[Brian Hale]

The plot thickens..........

This morning i got an email from UPS saying they'll be delivering a package from Amazon today. I don't have anything else on order so it must be the powerline adapter.

Great!

As I'm leaving the house at 4:15 this morning to head to work i find a box on my porch from Amazon. Yep, it's my powerline adapter

So now i need to contact Amazon again to schedule a pick-up

Such a waste of time and money
.....

[Jim Becker]

I believe you can just print out a return envelope for the extra delivery and drop it at the post office or UPS store. No need to schedule a pick-up. Any return I've had with Amazon has been extremely easy in that respect.

[Brian Hale]

So in a nutshell, it works, and pretty good.

Lesson #1...... do not use an extension cord. I did when I first set it up in the house and it worked well enough but moving out to the shop it wouldn't connect at all.
Lesson #2...... try several receptacles for the best connection.

Once I got the two units to talk to each other in the shop I tried lots of different receptacles and found a Wide variation in signal strength that seems to defy any logic. I have 48 120 volt receptacles in the shop on 6 separate breakers, all of which are located on one side of the breaker panel so I'm hitting both bus bars. Oddly enough, the receptacles with the best and worst throughput are on the same breaker! And of course, the receptacle in my "office" area is the worst. (never saw that coming)


Anyway, some numbers.....

Running speedtest.net with the wifes laptop plugged directly into the Verizon Fios router and running several (12) tests I got an average 11ms ping, 58.3 mbps download and 65.6 mbps upload. Same computer in the shop I went from 24ms ping, 5 mbps download and 2 mbps upload to 13ms ping, and 38 mbps download and 18 mbps upload. That's the best I could get. This is fast enough to watch a full screen Youtube video at 720p with no stuttering, good enough for the shop. I retested this receptacle several times over the last couple days and the throughput has remained unchanged. Testing over WiFi the throughput varied a bit more then the wired connection but there was only minimal loss.

Using a battery charger in the same receptacle is a bad idea as the throughput varies all over the place but generally drops by about 1/3.

Running a 3hp tablesaw has no effect but my 5hp cyclone can drop the throughput, especially if several blast gates are open putting the motor under load.

Shop lights don't seem to have any effect but my shopvac does, minimally.

Using a receptacle in the house near the breaker panel does seem to improve performance a tad but not enough to justify running a longer Cat 5 cable.

Overall I'm pleased with the performance and ease of setup (No extension cords or surge suppressors) and we'll see how things work out in the long run.

All The Best!

Brian :)

[Curt Harms]

Thanks for the review, Brian. Real world reviews beyond 'it works' or 'it sucks' are not common. Well done.

[Jim Laumann]

Back to the top....

I found this post regarding getting WIFI access in his shop 2-3 months ago. It was a great read,
and what I like about the Creek - some one has likely done or tryed doing what you want to do.....

Like Brian, I want to get network access in my shop, and also like his, my shop gets its power from
the house. I had screwed up back when I had it built - when running power and water to it, the yard
was already tore up, so I should have dug 1 more trench and run a couple of empty 2" conduits for future
expansion/wants - such as ethernet - but back then, I couldn't concieve a 'puter in the shop using the
internet, much less of things like smart phones or a tablet...

The shop sits about 120-130 feet from the house, and while I don't have Brian's obstacles, it is still a ways
to go, and there are power conduits (hand digging) and landscaping in the way, so wireless seemed to be
the best option - but how?

My shop is pole frame construction - steel on the outside, and a steel interior lining. I have a 900 mhz
cordless phone out there (for the land line), but it only works if I use it while standing in front of one of
the shop windows which faces a house window - I loose the phone connection if I leave the window. My
cell works out there to a limited degree, some days are better than others using the cell signal, but never
w/ our existing WIFI setup.

Brian's discussion of using a Powerline system seemed like a perfect fit. I ordered the Powerline kit and a
new WRT54GL router from Amazon. I had intended to use the 54GL in the house, moving the house's
WRT54G router (12 years+ old) to the shop. But then I reconsidered, and set the 54GL up for in the shop
(no mods to the existing & working house router). Our existing router is located on the back side of the h
ouse, and there is absolutely no WIFI signal outside of the house on the front side.

Had the 54GL router working w/ my cell - took every thing out to the shop - plugged it in - and nuthin' -
zip - zero - nada. No workee. Grrrr...

Fought this off and on for a couple months - and was about ready to pitch the Powerline and look for other
alternatives - figured I could sell the new router. Well, this weekend wifelet starts asking questions about it,
and I figured I should try playing w/ it again. Had the thought - Can I get the Powerline working in the
house? Get it going in the house, then see if it can be expanded to include the shop?

Tryed all the outlets in the living room (front of the house - faces the shop), nothing. Pulled the cover off
the breaker panel - found the living room circut was on the red bar of the panel, while my outlet in our house
office area (Powerline start point) was connected to the black bar - so much for the capacitance comments
(see post #28 & 31- at least in my case - have 5 220V circuts in the panel).

Swapped slots in the panel - moving the living room breaker to the black bar - and SHAZZAM!!! It worked - the
Powerline synced itself, and the activity lights started blinking. Was able to connect to the new router w/ my cell,
it was looking good. Have the 54GL router sitting on a end table w/ the antenna's facing the the window which
faces the shop.

Went out side - 25-30 ft from the house, I had a excellant signal. At about 50', it was good, and then dropped
to fair when I reached the shop door. Went in the shop - fully expecting to loose the signal, but I didn't. It (signal)
stayed in the fair category - regardless of standing by a window, or away from it - speed was 12Mbps, but it
was a signal, and useable.

Next steps will be running the Powerline in the house for 2-3 days (get familar with it's quirks), then attempt
to move it out of the house, in to the shop (ultimate goal). Am concerned about the distance issue - my
outbuildings (former farmstead) are on a big daisy chain, it's alot of wire and connections; time will tell.

Will update when I know more.

Jim

[Bruce Wrenn]

Try getting a $10 dongle off ebay, and scrounging up an old Direct TY dish. Gut LNB, and mount dongle inside it. Reattach to antenna. Run provided software. Feed cord to computer in shop. Aim dish towards source in house. You will need a roof top mount for dish, as it has to be aimed almost towards the ground.

[Curt Harms]

If WiFi ends up being the choice, there's always cantenna.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantenna