more newbie bench questions

[Margaret Imber]

Howdy folks, since you were so kind the last time, I've decided to pester you all with some more questions::o

1) re height. The general concensus seems to be that the proper height for planing is between 28 and 30 inches - or more accurately, according to Mr. Keyes, the distance between your thumb and the ground when your arm is hanging at your side and your thumb is stretched out. Which for me is about 30 inches. I'm about 5'7" tall. When I think about what folks do when they plane this seems ergonomic to me, and I would expect benches under this rule of thumb to be higher for guys. But what about sawing or chiseling (she asked as she plans to purchase stronger bifocals)? Wouldn't you want the bench top to be higher in order to spare the back and eyes? Fine Woodworking recently had a video tip up about building a benchette top for one's bench to accomodate these issues. Do folks actually do this or build a sawing station somewhere else in the shop or take a compromise height which is a tad high for planing and a tad low for everything else?

2) I've seen references in a number of plans for benches ranging from beginner to "I was a Shaker craftsman in a previous life" to the practice of running threaded rods at regular intervals through the bench top to hold it together (or perhaps some other purpose I've yet to figure out). Do folks do this or is it overkill? I suppose if you do do it, you'd run the rod as far away from the top of the bench as possible.

My life would be easier if I were less obsessive compulsive, I suppose, but not as interesting.

[Alan Turner]

Margaret,

As to No. 2, do not use thereaded rod. No need for it, if you are gluing up a solid top. Wood will move; the rod won't.

As to No. 1, yes people do use benchettes. Long before the FWW article, I saw Steve Latta's. He is a Federal Period inlay guy, which is a lot of close work. His is less formal, but quite stable.

Another possibility is the Adust-a-Bench by Geoff Noden. Jim Becker has one and uses it. I have one, but have not yet used it. My basement bench (my furniture as opposed to teaching bench) is 34" tall, and I also am 5'-7", and I both plane and saw on it. At the end of a long run of hand DT'd drawers, I have a sore back. But, that is after 8 to 12 hours over the bench in a long day. Shorter runs do not bother me.

Please understand that there will be other, equally or more valuable, opinions. On the subject of benches, there will no shortage of strongly held beliefs, mostly quite valid. This is a very personal thing.

[James Mittlefehldt]

I am 5'9" tall and my bench is 34" I arrived at this height based on the hanging arm technique though now I think of it, I must have goofed. I do crosscut sawing on my bench, with bench hooks a marvelous idea from Roman times, and when I rip saw I generally use what I call a sawyer's bench, which is about 18 inches tall, and affords me a comfortable height to saw a board. This came from a book called Old Ways Of Working Wood.

I do all my chopping for dovetails on the bench top and have never had a problem with fatigue as a result. I have a device I put on the front of the bench which is a platform sort of which holds long boards up for jointing or as I recently did, chopping mortices.

I find these all work for me and I don't think I would change much if I were to build a new bench, but then unlike Allan I don't do this for a living which may explain the lack of aches and pains, I rarely get to spend an entire day in the woodshop.

I hope this helps.

[Roger Bell]

Before you commit yourself to a particular height and construct a bench based on some "formula" or other, you might consider experimenting for a few months with various heights. Frankly, I don't put much stock in "formulas" for such a person-specific item as bench height. Other people's opinions are valid for and based upon their specific needs and preferences and susceptibility to ailments (back, neck, eyesight, etc).....which almost certainly differ from yours or mine.

You can pick up a solid core door (used and cheap), attach a vise, etc. and attach that to simple framed up legs. You could start at a "minimum" height, and then add (or later subtract) nail-on blocks to change the height until you determine what is best and most comfortable for you and for the kinds of tasks you usually do. It will probably take awhile to settle on something that is "just right", but I believe that it is worth the effort. During the process, you can experiment with other bench attributes tool trays and the like) and continue to refine your plans for the final bench design.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Hi Margaret. I am certain that there is no universal formula for concluding bench height. I would not base my bench height on the height of someone who is as tall as me. Everyone is built a different way top heavy bottom heavy etc. If you have a lot of upper body strength and mass to push through, then a taller bench is better. If you don't have much mass to push through then a lower bench is better. Personally I think that this is probably the most important thing to consider when designing a bench for general hand tool work. Peter

[Tom Jones III]

I ran threaded rod through the apron that the top sits on, but not the top itself. The threaded rod runs all the way through the 4x4 legs, through the apron to the opposite leg. I used treated pine for the entire workbench, so the threaded rods were necessary to make the legs/apron construction sturdy. Even though it is just treated pine, the frame of the bench is rock solid.

There is a Taunton press book on work benches that I found very helpful.

[Chris Barton]

Peter has a very good point here. The old rule of thumb for bench hight is based more on esthetics then ergonomics. Ideally, you shouldn't have to bend or stoop inorder to work on the bench surface. The test that ergonomists apply to such situation is can you stand up strait in front of the bench with your hands palm down on the bench top and have about a 110-135* angle at your elbow. I have a good friend that is an ergonomist and makes boocoo money mostly consulting industry over this issue and she says that almost 100% of work surfaces tend to be too low.


Chris

[Monte Milanuk]

Chris,

Question for ya (or more specifically your friend if you can ping them about it)... does that height that you mentioned (hands on the bench, 110-135 degree angle at the elbows) apply for detail/assembly work, or work involving heavier forces like planing. I presumed the reason for the traditionally low (to me, at 6'5") work surfaces was to be able to bear down on a board w/ a plane, i.e. leaning the body weight into it to relieve the muscles a bit. Yes/no/maybe?

Thanks,

Monte

[Chris Barton]

Hi Monte,


According to my ergonomist friend the answer is yes, even for that type of task. She indicated that having to stoop or bend over to do the work puts considerable strain on your lower back and legs. I can say that from my own experience that using a plane shouldn't require too much pressure and can be accomplished without stooping if the plane is sharp and properly tuned.

Chris

[Margaret Imber]

Thanks everyone - this has been very helpful.

[Hank Knight]

Margaret, I had the same questions when I started construction of my "last and best" bench. I solved the problem by incorporating heavy duty, adjustable machine levelers in the legs. They have 1/2 X 13 threaded studs with 3 1/2" neoprene pads. I had threaded leg caps fabricated by a local mechine shop to distribute the load over the cross section of each leg. The design gives me about 4" of overall bench height adjustment and it's rock solid. My old bench was 34" high, so I started there. I've used the bench for 6 months, and I think it's a little too high. I will probably lower it an inch or so to give me a more comfortable planing posture. If you're interested in more details, let me know and I'll e-mail you some photos of the construction.

[Mike Weaver]

Margaret, I had the same questions when I started construction of my "last and best" bench. I solved the problem by incorporating heavy duty, adjustable machine levelers in the legs. They have 1/2 X 13 threaded studs with 3 1/2" neoprene pads. I had threaded leg caps fabricated by a local mechine shop to distribute the load over the cross section of each leg. The design gives me about 4" of overall bench height adjustment and it's rock solid. My old bench was 34" high, so I started there. I've used the bench for 6 months, and I think it's a little too high. I will probably lower it an inch or so to give me a more comfortable planing posture. If you're interested in more details, let me know and I'll e-mail you some photos of the construction.

Hank,
I'm not Margaret (nor do I play her on TV ;-) but I'd like to see some pics - any chance you could post them here?

That's a great idea, BTW.

Cheers,
-Mike

[Wendell Wilkerson]

Hank,

I am with Mike. Please post some pictures. This is an area I'm struggling with so I would love to see how you tried to solve it.

Wendell

[Hank Knight]

Mike and Wendell, I'm at work rignt now and can't get to my home computer with the photos. I'll post them tonight. Meanwhile, if it doesn't violate protocol here, look at this Wood Central address for a photo I posted ther a couple of months ago: http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/archives.pl?read=204026

[Chris Padilla]

Alan already mentioned the adjust-a-bench: http://www.geocities.com/adjustabench/

I just thought I'd mention it again. It isn't cheap by any stretch of the imagination but they are having a 10% off (sort-a pays for shipping) sale on the bench and casters.

I figure I am saving some dough making my own top...I'll put it into some nice legs and really stretch the workbench's capabilities and comfort level. I also found an unused Veritas twin-screw to use as my tail vise for a reasonable price.

[Hank Knight]

I finally figured out how to include shortcuts to the pictures. The Pics don't appear in the text, but if you click on the shortcut the pics open. Hope this makes sense (it doesn't to me) and sorry for all the wallowing around with this.

Several of you have asked for photos of my bench levelers. Here goes. I hope they don't disappoint:

First, here's the completed bench. As you can see, it is stout. The top is 3" maple with 4" dog hole strips and skirt. The drawer case is 3/4" birch ply with oak drawer faces. I have no idea how much it weighs, but it's heavy.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=22180&stc=1


I was worried about how to keep it level and free from wracking on my uneven concrete basement floor. I decided to use some heavy duty industrial machine levelers from MSC Industrisal Supply. I ordered 4 with 3 1/2" neoprene pads and 6" 1/2X 13 threaded studs. Several posts on other woodworking forums recommended using threaded rod connectors imbedded in the legs to attach the levelers. I was worried that the connectors wouldn't distribute the loade adequately - they only have about 1 square inch of bearing surface. I went to my local machine shop and had them turn 4 leg "end caps" from 1 3/8" steel. The caps have a 3" X 3" X 3/8" plate with a 1 1/4" X 1" round stud with threaded hole through the center for the levelers. That gave me 9 square inches of bearing surface for eafh leg and distributed the load over almost the whoile cross section of the leg. Here they are:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=22183&stc=1

Here's a picture of the leg construction witht ethe levelers ready to be screwed into place:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=22184&stc=1

Here's a shot of the finished product:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=22185&stc=1

The set-up works great. I can easily level the bench with a few turns with a wrench and I have about 4" of height adjustment. The pads stick to the floor like they were bolted in place. The bench doesn't move AT ALL. I'm very pleased with the end result.

[Alan Turner]

Hank,
I saw the pix, and like the bench and feet. But, I wonder if you could do it cheaper. For your method, I would think that a pair of square nuts welded to a steel plate, 3" by 3", would be strong enough for this application. One top, one bottom. If you have a friend who is a machinist, fine, but otherwise I would think it is spendy to have this work done.
Another way is to put a sled bottom on your bench, and then through drill the ends of the feet, and use your 6" long MSC feet. Nuts top and bottom for for adjusting and tightening. I did this with 3" long feet, not for height adjustment, but for a firm grip on the floor, and to level it on an uneven floor, and becuae I get 1/2" of water on my basement floor about 6 times a year. PITA. My feet have 3" studs, and were less expensive by quite a bit.
Nice bench, and good idea. Hope you have dinged it up a bit since Feb.

[Mike Weaver]

Mike and Wendell, I'm at work rignt now and can't get to my home computer with the photos. I'll post them tonight. Meanwhile, if it doesn't violate protocol here, look at this Wood Central address for a photo I posted ther a couple of months ago: http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/archives.pl?read=204026

Nice bench and thanks for the pics!
You've certyainly given me something to think about when I get around to finishing my bench.
-Mike

[Hank Knight]

Hank,
I saw the pix, and like the bench and feet. But, I wonder if you could do it cheaper. For your method, I would think that a pair of square nuts welded to a steel plate, 3" by 3", would be strong enough for this application. One top, one bottom. If you have a friend who is a machinist, fine, but otherwise I would think it is spendy to have this work done.
Another way is to put a sled bottom on your bench, and then through drill the ends of the feet, and use your 6" long MSC feet. Nuts top and bottom for for adjusting and tightening. I did this with 3" long feet, not for height adjustment, but for a firm grip on the floor, and to level it on an uneven floor, and becuae I get 1/2" of water on my basement floor about 6 times a year. PITA. My feet have 3" studs, and were less expensive by quite a bit.
Nice bench, and good idea. Hope you have dinged it up a bit since Feb.

Alan, thanks for the comments. You are right on both counts. I considered a sled-foot design but decided to go with the straight legs. I can't articulate a reason, I just like the straight leg design better. My machine shop suggested that I weld a nut to a plate to accomplish my goal. It would certainly have been less expensive. I chose to go with the turned plate option I originally designed because I thought it would be stronger. The decision was probably overkill, but I didn't want any chance of failure. I have indeed dinged up the top some and the first gouge was only moderately painful. Actually I'm kinda glad I've crossed that bridge. Now I don't have to worry about it.

Bt the way, did the Pictures come up in my post last night? They're still not showing up on my computer.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Am I in Never-Never land? I can't see the photos. What's more, they are your hard drive's/camera's names for the files, not any sort of internet address.

Pam

[Hank Knight]

Pam, I think we're both in Never Never Land. The addresses are my hard drive addresses. I can't get the photos from my hard drive to insert in the post. I'v not had this problem before. I don't know what's wrong. I think Alan and Wendell saw the pics on the Wood Central site from the link in my short post above. You've probably seen the bench there too.

[Mike Weaver]

Pam, I think we're both in Never Never Land. The addresses are my hard drive addresses. I can't get the photos from my hard drive to insert in the post. I'v not had this problem before. I don't know what's wrong. I think Alan and Wendell saw the pics on the Wood Central site from the link in my short post above. You've probably seen the bench there too.

Hank,
I too saw the pics on Wood Central.
Under "additional options", you can "Manage Attachments" to attach the pics.
Or, of course you're probably already doing it via that method and I'm all wet... (quite likely).

Cheers,
-Mike

[Tyler Howell]

Nice bench Hank!:cool:
Great leveling solution.
Do you get any Rock and Roll with the levelers??

[Rick Schubert]

All the pictures are at the bottom of your post and look fine.

Good ideas which I will probably adapt when I build my bench this fall. Thanks for sharing them.

Rick

[Wendell Wilkerson]

Hank,

Thanks for posting the pictures. I think I missed the thread on WoodCentral somehow. How easy is it to use the levelers? Is it something you want to do all the time like if you want to switch between operations (planing vs. sawing) or just something you adjust until you find the sweet spot so to speak? I think the Adust-a-Bench by Geoff Noden is really neat. However I have my heart set on building a Roubo style bench, and they just don't really fit this style of bench. Your leveler solution might work though.

Wendell

[Hank Knight]

Hank,

How easy is it to use the levelers? Is it something you want to do all the time like if you want to switch between operations (planing vs. sawing) or just something you adjust until you find the sweet spot so to speak?
Wendell

Wendell, adjusting the bench is relatively easy - they're like any other screw-based leveller, only bigger. A few turns with a wrench on all four legs does the trick. Since it's a 1/2 X 13 stud, it takes thirteen turns to move it an inch. But for a large adjustment, it probably would be a good idea to move each leg incrementally rather than move each leg the full distance at one time to avoid twisting the base. You could probably use the system to raise and lower the bench for different operations, but my guess is that would be cumbersome. I think your "sweet spot" analogy is closer to what I had in mind. By the way, the pads swivel and pivot, so turning the studs to raise or lower the bench does not involve turning the pads, they stick tight to the floor during the whole operation.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Hank,
I saw the pix, and like the bench and feet. But, I wonder if you could do it cheaper. For your method, I would think that a pair of square nuts welded to a steel plate, 3" by 3", would be strong enough for this application. One top, one bottom. If you have a friend who is a machinist, fine, but otherwise I would think it is spendy to have this work done....


I don't know, Alan. There's no thread up in the legs, thus leaving room for a great deal of play. In effect, all the weight, twist, etc. is held by that one plate/screw. I'd feel more comfortable with a long tight sleeve inserted into the leg mortise, preferably threaded.

Pam

PS Thanks, Hank, I didn't remember it from WC, but the photos are coming through loud and clear now.