How to crosscut a miter on a wide, long, thick part

[Prashun Patel]

I am making a dining bench that is 88" long, 12" wide, and ~2" thick. My customer wants mitered corners for the leg/seat joints; that is, it's a 'waterfall' style bench.

Mitering the legs at the table saw is straight forward.

I cannot, though, think of a simple way to miter the ends of the seat.
Save for any better ideas, I am planning to make a long sled for the table saw. I really don't want to do that for several reasons.

Any better ideas for mitering the ends of the seat?

[Mark Bolton]

If you have a good circular saw and a good blade you should be able to do it with a clamped fence. I think the chances would be 50/50 either way with the sled or the saw and fence method. Even a pretty serious sled can give some fits (concave/convex cuts) on a TS.

[Prashun Patel]

Mark,
the problem is the 2". I don't think a circular saw will have enough depth of cut. How do they make those giant mitered slab tables?

[Dan Hahr]

I would use my tablesaw and sled. I'd use a helper to keep it flat on the saw. Dan

[Erik Christensen]

the larger festool tracksaw cuts 2 1/8" at 45 degrees - i have one so that is what i would use even though I have a sliding table on my table saw (robland)

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks Erik. I should have mentioned this:

I don't have a Festool tracksaw, and don't anticipate purchasing one. Thanks, though.

[glenn bradley]

+1 on a sled. Why is this a problem out of curiosity?

[Jeffrey Martel]

I would cut it close with a circular saw and then make a jig to use either a hand plane or a router with a straight bit to cut it at exactly 45 deg. And use splines for alignment.

[mreza Salav]

A track saw.
I actually cut 2.5" thick railings using my track saw, much easier to have them on the bench and run secure the track than have them on the miter saw to do the cut.

[Prashun Patel]

It's hard to muscle a 88" long piece that's 2" thick and 12" wide onto the saw. I'll need lots of lateral support. It's so heavy and long that I am anticipating it will torque a regular sled out of position enough to cause a burned or crooked cut.

[Mark Bolton]

Mark,:eek:
the problem is the 2". I don't think a circular saw will have enough depth of cut. How do they make those giant mitered slab tables?

Time to invest in a slider ;-). I can cross cut 9'.

If you cut from the top a 7 1/4" circular saw would make it through the bulk of it leaving only a slight bit of cleanup with a parinig chisel or a good plane on the inside corner of the joint.

[Mark Bolton]

I would cut it close with a circular saw and then make a jig to use either a hand plane or a router with a straight bit to cut it at exactly 45 deg. And use splines for alignment.

Your going to need splines for more than alignment. Its basically an end grain butt joint. ;)

[Mark Bolton]

It's hard to muscle a 88" long piece that's 2" thick and 12" wide onto the saw. I'll need lots of lateral support. It's so heavy and long that I am anticipating it will torque a regular sled out of position enough to cause a burned or crooked cut.

+1 for sure

[Rich Engelhardt]

Any place local you can rent an 8 1/4" circular saw?

Even though I have a Festool track saw, there's times I have to use a shop made guide and a regular circular saw. Cutting sections of counter top with a built in back splash is one of those things a track saw can't do. I turn to using a shop made guide and my trusty Ryobi POS with a Freud 40 T blade on it.
With extreme care and extreme caution and prep, the cuts are very close to the Festool in quality.

Maybe there's a counter top fabricator that can make the cut for you for a small fee also.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Prashun....do you have a router?


If so, rough cut it to size with a circular or hand saw, make a "jig" for the router at the correct angle and use a straight cutting bit to make the final cut.

[Jeffrey Martel]

Another thought. You could cut it close on a circular saw, use a chamfer bit in a router, and then use a flush trim bit with the bearing riding on the chamfered portion to get an even miter.

[Prashun Patel]

Yes. How would I balance the router at 45deg, though?

[Jeffrey Martel]

Yes. How would I balance the router at 45deg, though?

Make a new jig with a fence set at 45 deg.

302166

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Make a new jig with a fence set at 45 deg.

302166

Bingo! I was going to post the same photo.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

BUT.......a 2" board at 45º measures 2 13/16"......I can't find a bit longer than 2" ........

[Mike Wilkins]

Time to invest in a slider as earlier stated. With the sliding table and wagon, cuts like this are a breeze.
If possible, find a local cabinet shop and get them to make the cuts for you.

[Mark Bolton]

At least to me the router jig seems like a lot of work and using a straight bit projecting out 2" cutting end grain may have issues of its own. Can be a merciless cut.

Slicking in 1/8-1/4" of uncut material after a single pass from a circular saw is pretty easy work either by hand or with a router and fence, and chamfering bit with the bearing removed.

The real issue is what comes next. On a table or bench that joint is going to see some major brutality. a spline or loose tenon (domino) would leave me worried.

[Doug Herzberg]

I'm guessing you don't have a radial arm saw. That would be my first choice.

[Larry Edgerton]

It's hard to muscle a 88" long piece that's 2" thick and 12" wide onto the saw. I'll need lots of lateral support. It's so heavy and long that I am anticipating it will torque a regular sled out of position enough to cause a burned or crooked cut.

You are right, it won't work, at least not to furniture standards. I have tried. Nine times out of ten something moves.

12" could be done on a 12" slider, would still be needing a touch with stickit paper on a hard block. No slider?

Hand plane and a shooting board?

Large chamfer bit and two setups. I actually have a custom chamfer From Nordic tool that could do it, but its scary. And too expensive.

I have done similar with a 16" Makita skilsaw and a jig, but you most likely don't have one of those around. It was 3" thick, did an amazing job.

Talk him into a different joint? My favorite.

I'm heading back out to the shop, I'll think about it some more........

Larry

[ian maybury]

+1 that the simple way would be if somebody could help out with access to a slider equipped panel saw running a 12in blade.

Failing that I'd cut from both sides with a rail guided circular saw, and finish with a hand saw if needed in the cuts. Depending on how confident I was of hitting the line my instincts would be to leave a bit of meat on it and to ease up to it with a hand plane. Make the cut first with some extra length in the piece of stock so that if necessary there's scope for a second or even third try - although cutting the other end even if it's square may amount to a similar problem on a cabinet saw.....

[Justin Ludwig]

Make a new jig with a fence set at 45 deg.

302166


You could use this same style jig with a circular saw. Clean up with a plane or your choice of tools.

[Sam Murdoch]

Prashun....do you have a router?


If so, rough cut it to size with a circular or hand saw, make a "jig" for the router at the correct angle and use a straight cutting bit to make the final cut.


This seems a simple and most accurate solution.

For a completely outside the box approach - Attach each leg to an equal length section of the top. Then connect the 2 mitered leg/top assemblies to the (aprox. 56" long) center top section. Depending on the wood species or if you are able to introduce a detail at the joint this might be a more interesting bench - just as rugged but easier to build. You could even add a section in the center (a leaf) so that the bench could be extended with the width of the table (if it is an extension table). That would justify the extra joints.

I did not say it was a good idea - just an out of the box approach. :rolleyes:

[Pat Barry]

This seems like a perfect task for a Neander approach with good crosscut saw, careful sawing to the line and then cleanup with a shooting board and hand plane. :)

[Derek Arita]

Still liking the idea of a custom cross cut sled that is as long as possible on the in feed side. With 2 rails in the miter slots and maybe a roller stand for support and waxed tables, I could easily see it working well.

[Matt Day]

RAS sounds good to me.

[Ray Newman]

As others posted utilize a radial arm saw. Or, would a Sliding Miter Saw work? If you have access to either, I think I would first make a "rough" cut, then a "finish" cut.

[Mike McCann]

how about a 45 degree router bit in handheld router

[Mark Bolton]

As others posted utilize a radial arm saw. Or, would a Sliding Miter Saw work? If you have access to either, I think I would first make a "rough" cut, then a "finish" cut.

I dont think there is any slider (SCMS) out there that will make a 12" bevel cut in 2" thick solids that will be furniture grade clean. They all seem to make a hollow cut (concave) in a single pass, and a convex cut (bowed in the middle) in a cleanup/light cut. There is just too much flex in the system for a cut on two parts that wide and that thick that will mate flawlessly.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

borrow a festool

[Derek Arita]

Festool Carvex is supposed to be able to do the job when used on a track.

[Andrew Hughes]

I'm pretty sure my bosch scms, will make that cut.It also helps to have a good blade.

[Dan Hahr]

That's funny. 20-30 years ago everyone would have said RAS. I don't have one but a good one would make that cut easily. Dan

[Mark Bolton]

Regardless of coulda-shoulda-woulda's, or what would have been said when, the OP is asking how to make the cut with the tools he has.

[Dan Hahr]

No he isn't. He's asking for ideas.

"Any better ideas for mitering the ends of the seat?"

[Mark Bolton]

No he isn't. He's asking for ideas.

"Any better ideas for mitering the ends of the seat?"

Oh... well then my vote is to track down either a new or used fully computerized Altendorf 10' slider. Tell the customer there will be a bit of a delay then get a contractor working on an addition to the shop.

;-)

[Mike Null]

The RAS is the tool for the job.

[Brian W Smith]

One way of looking at this is whether you want it as a single machining effort....or two.Obviously a single will be faster but if that involves some sort of $$ outlay,then it may not work out.A two step approach and you could use a chainsaw(kidding),then on to a more accurate finishing step.Just something we'd consider here,Good luck.

[Matt Day]

Prashun, do you have a RAS? If not you should've able to find a decent Dewalt on CL for under $150.

At any rate, if you go this route my experience has been you should do it in one cut, not a "rough cut and finish cut". The blade needs to be fully supported on both sides by the wood or it will flex and your cut won't be true.

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks for all the responses. I experimented with a Neander method to shoot the edge. Most bevel/ramp/donkey-ear shooting boards have the plane running flat, and the piece held at an angle. I'm sure someone out there has thought to reverse it so the piece lays flat, and the plane runs on a bevel. I tried a proof of concept this morning, and I think it'll work. I ripped a bevel on a 3x3 piece of scrap to act as the guide. Then I planed it roughly free hand. Then I cleaned it up against the ramp.

Let's see how it goes for real.

I just need to elevate the piece 1/4" (like all shooting boards) to accommodate the gap between the blade corner and the plane side. I may have to glue a little lip on the bottom of the ramp to allow the end of the seat to register squarely against the ramp.

My seat is extra long currently to allow for a couple different trials (and errors!)

Thanks again.

[Mark Bolton]

I assumed you were talking end grain? Looks like your test is edge.

[Prashun Patel]

I am. This is just proof of concept. Cutting the edge is easier on the blade; I just wanted to save myself a resharpening.

[Pat Barry]

Thanks for all the responses. I experimented with a Neander method to shoot the edge. Most bevel/ramp/donkey-ear shooting boards have the plane running flat, and the piece held at an angle. I'm sure someone out there has thought to reverse it so the piece lays flat, and the plane runs on a bevel. I tried a proof of concept this morning, and I think it'll work. I ripped a bevel on a 3x3 piece of scrap to act as the guide. Then I planed it roughly free hand. Then I cleaned it up against the ramp.

Let's see how it goes for real.

I just need to elevate the piece 1/4" (like all shooting boards) to accommodate the gap between the blade corner and the plane side. I may have to glue a little lip on the bottom of the ramp to allow the end of the seat to register squarely against the ramp.

My seat is extra long currently to allow for a couple different trials (and errors!)

Thanks again.
You da man! Those will be a couple of sweet joints when you are done. Are you planning to spline them or dowel them to reinforce the joints?

[Peter Aeschliman]

Seems like you're figuring it all out... but one less satisfying solution is to take it to a high end cabinet shop with a top of the line sliding table saw and have them make the cuts for you. Obviously you'll have to pay them and it will eat into your margin, but you should be able to make up for it via time savings. Think about how much time you've already spent trying to come up with a solution.

But if you're set on doing it yourself, it seems to me you're on the right track.

[Prashun Patel]

Time to set the bevel for the two legs and my shooting ramp.

I'm not sure how you guys do this, but for me, I don't have a decent gauge to test my bevels for true 45 degrees.

I did it this way:

I cut a bevel at what-i-think-is 45 degrees at the tablesaw, then cross cut that piece in half. I then clamped the two sides together to make what should be a perfect 90 degree roof.

May be obvious to most, but...

[Larry Edgerton]

Good for you. You will learn something new before it all done and will have a new tool in your mental tool box. Nice Plane by the way. I have an original Stanley and use it almost daily when I am in the shop.

Later buddy......

Larry

[Bernie May]

I must be missing something. Why can't you miter the ends with a 12" SCMS? Do the maximum cut, flip board over, rotate saw and finish the cut.

[Prashun Patel]

I dont have an SCMS. I appreciate all the advice about the SCMS and RAS being the right tool for the job. If I have to do this more often, I'll consider making the investment. I'm always open to new ideas, so I'm grateful for those suggestions. I was trying though to work with the stuff I had. It's always a balance isn't it? Trying to work with what you have is gratifying, but I always love the excuse to buy a new tool... ;)

[Prashun Patel]

I realize this is pretty involved, but for those of us without certain capacity on our saws, this method seems to be working ok...

I first cut the bevel as deep as possible with my circular saw, using a framing square to guide the cut.

Next, I completed the cut with a hand saw.

Then I made the shooting jig: I clamped a 3/4" plywood fence to the bench, then butted a 1/4" plywood sled against it. The end of the sled is cut square to the edge, which therefore provides a reference to clamp the bevel guide against.

Once the fence and the ramp are clamped square to each other, I pulled the sled back away from the ramp edge. This is critical, because shooting boards require some clearance.

Next, I glued a 45deg backer to the end of the seat. I wanted to eliminate tearout.

Finally, I positioned the piece against the fence. It must be close enough that the left edge of the plane blade fully engages the top, but low enough so the right side of the blade engages the bottom of the bevel. Setting this distance was the only slightly tricky part; because the blade width is only a tad wider than the cut width, there's not a lot of wiggle room. If you don't get it just right, the blade won't cut, giving the impression that the depth of cut is the culprit. If you get to aggressive with the depth of cut, it just gouges badly. If you get the distance from the fence perfect, then a sharp blade cuts pretty easily.

It worked pretty well...

One lesson (that I should have) learned (the last 50 times) is to mask the top of the initial cut with the circ saw...

[ian maybury]

Hi P. You probably know, but a reasonable quality and decent sized drawing square will often function as a very accurate 90 deg and 45 deg reference.

Another route is to use a drawing compass to lay out first a right angle (90 deg), and then split that in half:

http://www.mathopenref.com/constperpextpoint.html

http://www.mathopenref.com/constbisectangle.html

The latter will again be very accurate if you have a good big/long reach compass with sharp point and pencil - you can make one if you need to from a strip of wood.

Do it on a sheet of good quality ply and you have the basis of a DIY square.....

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks for all the help, guys.

Here's the finished product.

Because the final length, 88", was too long for a single long piece, the grain matching on the ends is not perfect.

I reinforced the joints with Dominos. I used epoxy for the adhesive.

There is a center stretcher (2x3) under the top which (intended) you can't really see from most vantage points.

[Frank Pratt]

Oops, deleted

[Dan Rude]

Looks great! Dan

[Doug Herzberg]

Looks great. Well done.

[Brian Henderson]

That's funny. 20-30 years ago everyone would have said RAS. I don't have one but a good one would make that cut easily. Dan

I loaned my RAS to my uncle about 15 years ago when he was building a deck and he's still got it in his garage. Every time I think I ought to get it back, I don't want to make the 60 mile drive and I find another way.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Thanks for all the help, guys.

Here's the finished product.

Because the final length, 88", was too long for a single long piece, the grain matching on the ends is not perfect.

I reinforced the joints with Dominos. I used epoxy for the adhesive.

There is a center stretcher (2x3) under the top which (intended) you can't really see from most vantage points.


Nicely done Prashun! That presented an interesting situation and you found a way of overcoming it! Nicely done Sir!