Old iron junkie ..... changing his ways?

[John McBride]

Hello all!

I have been lurking and cautiously posting here for a while now. Since my beloved wife has finally prodded me once again into the woodworking breech after a very long absense. i am once again planing and preparing to re-open my woodworking business after well over a decade of corperate ....why I resisted for so long is beyond me.

I am re-opening this business significantly downsized from it's previous iteration. WAY smaller operation. Think "single car garage/one man operation".

I am in the challenging (or enviable) position of reequipping a woodworking shop from scratch. Funds are .... well ....strained to say the least. I am determined to do this patiently and with as little negitive impact to our financial situation as possible.

All that being said, I am also researching those tools which will provide the very best bang for the buck. My normal modis operondi, has been to source my equipment used. Unisaws, PM66's, old aircraft carrier jointer, and monsterously heavy planers were the rule.

However, this time around, I am focusing on much smaller, much more mobile machinery.

I have a partial list of those machines that I am 99% set on aquiring. I have a question about the table saw choice that I will ask at the end of this post.

meanwhile, I submit this list for your perusal. please, please, please share any experiences you may have with these tools. Note that I have been doing a great deal of reading here and elsewhere, so my due dillegence has been/is being done as it relates to the search function.

I would just like some fresh perspective on these choices. Feel free to add alternitive suggestions. (except for anything Festool, Sorry, just cant drink that koolaide)

The current fantasy team:

TABLE SAW- Delta36-5100 - This is the question mark right now. Very new, and something of an unknown. Anyone got one? Done any research on it? Any info at all? I am considering this machine because of the bang for the buck ratio. 110/220 capable which is key. I have no 240 service to my new shop. it comes on wheels, has Biesmeyer clone, single rail fence, and two cast iron wings with 30in rip capacity. pretty much ticks all my table saw boxes for around $1299. A little steeper than I wanted to spend, as I was looking at a craftsman 113 series or Rockwell model 10 before running across this. If I had gone the craigslist route, I would have ended up with a table saw in the $850-$900 range once a new Vega fence, PALS,pullys,link belt,and cast iron router table extension and solid cast iron wing for the other side.
Absent the router table extension, $1299 seems to be a bit of a stretch for me still, but one I think I may be willing to accept, if the machine were to perform as good or better than my original choice(s)

PLANER-
Depending on my ability to find a good bargin, I am leaning heavilly to the Dewalt DW-735. I like the two speeds, and also the dust collection features. if that ends up being just a bit over the budget, especially considering the budget busting table saw I am considering, I would absolutely defer to the Dewalt DW-734 in stead. both machines would be good fits for the type of furniture I build. One just a little more feature filled than the other.

JOINTER-
This is where I will be going to the Craigslist. I want to find a vintage, old iron Rockwell, Delta, powermatic, etc. 6in jointer. I would obviously love something bigger, but the reality of my shop space dictates that 6 in is just going to have to do for now.

TRACK SAW-
For now, I am settled on the Dewalt DWS520ck kit. Both the longer track, the shorter track, and the saw for MSRP of around $600 is also at the top of my budget, and I did concider the Grizzley/grizzley clones. But for me, I would just feel more comfortable with the Dewalt based on review comparisons I have read. it seems the Dewalt "just works" right from the get go.

The Grizzley is still on the radar though. If the budget is being beaten up as badly as I am sure it will be, I may have to re-consider the schleppeth(?) Grizz, Shop Fox version simply because I am hopeing to not be doing much work with sheet goods. Problem is, Sheet good can, and do make for slightly more versatile and profitable work. I suspect that the initial budget busting on the front end may be more than warrented in return on investment. At least until the commission work begins to out pace the cabinetry work.......yeah, yeah, I had to laugh out loud when I wrote that too....

So, let's start there. Realizing that these are but the core cluster of machines, and that there are plenty of other things I will need, (dust collection, band saw, routers, hand tools....etc, etc. I would like to hear comments, questions, concerns, and suggestions from you guys. I think I am on pretty solid ground with these choices (save the Delta saw), and would like to know your thoughts.

Regarding the saw. Does ANYONE have one? any experience with one? i continue to search the net, but methinks that the saw is too new to have much in the way of reviews. Any help is appreciated.

[Doug Ladendorf]

Welcome back to the fold. A dose of plastic where there should be metal may send you running back to vintage. :-) First of all, Delta is a shadow of the company it once was. Expect no parts or support availability. You are on your own. In fact I'm not sure if any machinery dealers even sell Delta any more. It's been a tragic and dramatic decline. For that money you could get one of the Grizzly saws. Several happy owners here and they have great support. Uni's and PM66's can have mobile bases though, and save you money.

Mikita makes a good track saw. I'd check that too if I were looking.

There are quite a few used 15" planers out there. They all seem to have a similar if not exact design. I picked up one a while back and have been happy with it.

Jointer, keep an eye out for a shorter bed 8". If this is for business I can't help but think you will be frustrated with a 6" jointer.

Good luck and have fun.

[John McBride]

Doug,
Thanks for the reply. I had understood that Delta was truely on the decline, and had discounted any of their products as a result. However, In the very few mentions I have been able to find online. it seems that there may be a re-aligning of their business model as of late. This is purely rumor-ish or perhaps internet corperate hype, the reality I dont know. but since my shop will be strictly 110/220 maybe equipped, I am forced to seek out equipment that will operate in those constraints. The Grizz hybrid is also on the short list as it turns out. In fact it was near the top of the list before I ran across this new series of Delta saws. the difference may end up being in the post purchase support though. Grizzley and I go WAAAAAYYYY back, and I have nothing but praise for them and most of their equipment.

Thanks for the response. I am simply giddy with excitement at the prospect starting from scratch.....really....I am really.....it's almost as much fun planing and researching as it is using the damn machines...LOL....I think I need an intervention.

[Mike Null]

I had the old version of the Delta contractor's saw with the Unifence. I sold it and bought the Delta hybrid with the Biesemeyer knock off. My preference was easily for the Unifence over the Biesemeyer.

[John McBride]

Mike,
i hear you on the Uni vs. the Bies. However, I must admit, I DO like the simlicity of the Biesmeyer. If I were to have my choice, I would actually pop for a Vega. just my preference.

[Larry Edgerton]

If I was in your position I would seriously look at a good quality combination machine. I just saw an ad for a Minimax combo with the short slider, jointer/planer and shaper for $5500, and it was almost new. Each one of the tools is better than what you are looking at and will take up less space. I have never used a combo so I imagine it would require a bit more organization in your work habits but to have first class tools that never need to be updated would be a big plus in my book.

Drop Erik Loza, a Minimax/SCM rep on this forum a PM, he will give you good information with no pressure. There are others such as Felder, Knapp and Robland to look at as well but I am partial to SCM as I have made a living with them for a long time.

Larry

[Dennis Aspö]

While I like old iron and my shop is full of old machines, I'd consider a new table saw. That way you get a riving knife and it's really a must-have in my book, though older european saws have them so that's always a possibility...

[John McBride]

If I was in your position I would seriously look at a good quality combination machine. I just saw an ad for a Minimax combo with the short slider, jointer/planer and shaper for $5500, and it was almost new. Each one of the tools is better than what you are looking at and will take up less space. I have never used a combo so I imagine it would require a bit more organization in your work habits but to have first class tools that never need to be updated would be a big plus in my book.

Drop Erik Loza, a Minimax/SCM rep on this forum a PM, he will give you good information with no pressure. There are others such as Felder, Knapp and Robland to look at as well but I am partial to SCM as I have made a living with them for a long time.

Larry

Larry,
my old shop relied on a robland X31 for much of it's existance. It was one of my smarter decisions actually. it was everything I needed it to be and more. the only problem currently is, that even with the compact footprint of a combi machine, I am still in very tight quarters. too tigt even for a combination machine. At least one that is of the size and capability that makes sense. Also, combination machines are 240 vac, and I dont have that kind of budget to put 240 in the shop. As it is, I am straining the purse just adding a small sub panel and some dedicated circuts for lights, and a few 4-plex gang box wall outlets. Currently there is no room in the houses service box for anything more than that. Good idea though, were I to have more room, I would be looking to replace the X31, or perhaps even move up to a minimax or Felder.

[John McBride]

While I like old iron and my shop is full of old machines, I'd consider a new table saw. That way you get a riving knife and it's really a must-have in my book, though older european saws have them so that's always a possibility...

Denis,
i agree. i am still a huge proponant of old iron. Everything about the castings and the "feel" just seems better. However, I find myself opening to the notion of exploing the newer equipment if only because I am finding out that bang for the buck, and with some patience and research, I can find more than capable machinery that will do what I need it to, with a level of precision that I require, for nearly the same ammount of money, if not, as in some cases, less.

[Jamie Buxton]

What are you building? That's a big issue. For instance, beautiful jewelry boxes can be built with tools that are inadequate for kitchen cabinets. And outdoor furniture wants other tools.

[John McBride]

What are you building? That's a big issue. For instance, beautiful jewelry boxes can be built with tools that are inadequate for kitchen cabinets. And outdoor furniture wants other tools.
I am a furniture maker by trade, but also do custom cabinets on a limited scale. in addition, I build solid wood, steam bent custom snare drums. This has been the bread and butter for the past 5 years, but this requires a much different shop set up. My partner and I are pretty muh out of the day to day fabrication of the shells now, so I am looking to get back into furniture, and commission work. Cabinets to pay the bills and finance my hand tool fetish.

[Jamie Buxton]

I wouldn't buy Delta nowadays. The current Delta cannot even manage to supply parts for machines they have in production.

I too mostly make furniture. I couldn't operate with a jointer that's only 6" wide. I need to faceplane every board I use. There's too many beautiful boards that are wider than 6".

[Matt Meiser]

Yep, before giving a dime to Delta read the threads here from the last couple years.

[Mike Cutler]

John

Me personally, I'd pass on that Delta TS. Simply because for the same $$$$ you're looking at a 1-1/2 to 2hp Hybrid style cabinet saw, whatever fence you want, mobile base, with better dust collection, that will occupy the same footprint, if not smaller. My General International 50-220 is a nice compact unit. Definitely not a production level machine, but for a single guy working alone, it's been enough.
I also have mid 90's Jet Contractor saw, and there isn't much difference in the design between differing manufacturers. If I were to do all over again, I wouldn't have bought a contractor style saw. I've done some nice work on my Jet, but I still would have bought a cabinet style table saw if I could do it again.

I gotta echo everyone else on the Jointer size. I'd be looking for a used short bed 8", instead of a 6". There just isn't enough difference in size between the two machines. 6" is really limiting.

The DeWalt Tracksaw is a nice unit. I played around with one at a Lowes demo a month or two back. I already have a Festool Tracksaw, so the DeWalt stayed at the store.
Not sure that you'd be drinking any koolaid buying a Festool in this situation. The DeWalt's not an inexpensive unit. I guess you do save some cash by getting the 102" rail as part of the DeWalt package though. About $300.00 to be honest.

[CPeter James]

On the contractor style table saws that have the trunnion assembly made up of two end pieces and some rods connecting them, I have found that they often have some movement in the assembly and will not hold their alignment especially when tilting the blade. I would either look for an older true cabinet saw of at least a new saw with a one piece cast iron trunnion. I did some work on an older Rockwell contractor's saw, maybe a 34-400 that was extremely well made and had a one piece cast iron trunnion.

Whatever you decide, I would suggest anything except a new Delta.

CPeter

[Steve Rozmiarek]

My initial response was the same as Larry's, with regard to the combo machine. After that, what about a second or third hand unisaw or similar, on a mobile base and short rail. Plenty of mass to stabilize it if you want to install a router in the table, just pick one with the dual voltage motor to fit your needs. I picked up a pretty nice one 100 miles north of you for around 500.

[John McBride]

My initial response was the same as Larry's, with regard to the combo machine. After that, what about a second or third hand unisaw or similar, on a mobile base and short rail. Plenty of mass to stabilize it if you want to install a router in the table, just pick one with the dual voltage motor to fit your needs. I picked up a pretty nice one 100 miles north of you for around 500.

Guys, thanks for the input. Very appreciated. I suppose my common sense dictates that I continue to seek out something more cabinet saw like. I only wanted to open the door to other options seeing as I had traditionally been so militant about old iron to the exclusion of potential other options.

I do have to admit, despite Deltas dismal track record of late, that their newer contractor saw series (36-725 and 36-5000/36-5100) look interesting to me. I don't think I will actually pop for one of these though, primarily because of the service/parts issues currently in play with this long suffering company. Too bad...I like where they appear to trying to go, but just can't trust that that business model will have any real longevity.

[CPeter James]

Orphans (tools without any support or parts) always scare me. I have a couple that I bought because I really liked them and have picked up spare parts when I can here and there, just to have when they are needed. I would not want a major machine that I could not get parts for.

CPeter

[John Goodin]

I love my Dewalt 735. Great planer, great dust collection. Only downside is noise but that is a given in lunchbox types. Was reading the Rockler Mail ad today and they had it for 599 including the tables, extra set of blade and a stand. That is the best I have seen. Usually runs around 650 without the stand.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Guys, thanks for the input. Very appreciated. I suppose my common sense dictates that I continue to seek out something more cabinet saw like. I only wanted to open the door to other options seeing as I had traditionally been so militant about old iron to the exclusion of potential other options.

I do have to admit, despite Deltas dismal track record of late, that their newer contractor saw series (36-725 and 36-5000/36-5100) look interesting to me. I don't think I will actually pop for one of these though, primarily because of the service/parts issues currently in play with this long suffering company. Too bad...I like where they appear to trying to go, but just can't trust that that business model will have any real longevity.

John, a quick question, when you became and old tool militant (love that!) it was probably the idea of getting so much bang for the buck that drew you in initially. Being a fellow militant, I to have to admit that the seductive glossy pics of the new stuff get my attention too from time to time too. The question is though, did the fundamental reason that you found an appreciation of old iron change? If so, we may need to have an intervention...

[Will Boulware]

Budget, you say? Me too. I'll stay away from the jointer discussion as my jointer says #8 on it. :D

Go for the Craftsman 113 saw. Not pretty, but they're more than functional. Add the router table, but skip the aftermarket cast iron wing. Not sure why everyone thinks those ugly stock honeycomb wings aren't functional or flat. Mine are heavy as all get out and more than flat enough for a contractor saw. These saws are listed online on a regular basis for a tenth of the price of that delta saw. Yeah, throw some accessories on it and a good fence and you're over $500, but they're good saws. Hard to find a Uni or a 66 with a good fence for $500-750, though that would be a "better" option if it weren't for the 220v issue.

Planer - I've got the Dewalt 734. It planes boards very nicely. It's a lot cheaper than the 735. Given tight financial parameters, it'll save you quite a bit. Given limited space, it's a lot easier to lift/lower to store than a 735. Just food for thought.

Track saw - And a table saw? Again, with budget as a key factor, I might skip one or the other and throw that money in tooling or a router (or two) for that router table wing you mentioned.

A single car garage is tight! I have a small 2 car and get claustrophobic on a hobbyist scale, so my hat's off to you for doing the real thing in half the space! Have you thought about space for a workbench? How about finishing? Do you have the space to assemble and finish a set of cabinets?

Any which way you go, congrats on starting a new venture! Always cool to see somebody push away from the desk and chase a dream!

[Kevin Wolfe]

I have the dewalt track saw. Gave up the big table saw for it and a good sized bandsaw. I love the dewalt. I have both tracks whicy is really handy.

I will say that the dewalt leaves a table saw quality cut and has really good dust extraction. I would highly recommend it.

[Jim Becker]

My initial response was the same as Larry's, with regard to the combo machine. A

Ditto...that and high-quality, precision electric hand tools that not only do great work in the shop, but are also the bee's knees when you're doing an installation in someone's home because of excellent dust extraction. Yea, that was a hint... ;)

[John McBride]

John, a quick question, when you became and old tool militant (love that!) it was probably the idea of getting so much bang for the buck that drew you in initially. Being a fellow militant, I to have to admit that the seductive glossy pics of the new stuff get my attention too from time to time too. The question is though, did the fundamental reason that you found an appreciation of old iron change? If so, we may need to have an intervention...
Steve,
Lol....I think my appreciation for old iron and my militant adhearance to old iron stemmed originally from my belief that the castings and build quality was so far and away superior, that the castings were cured properly prior to flattening, and that the old iron was just...better, led to a love affair with them. It is only because I have had to downsize so radically, that I am considering anything made in the last 30 years.

I think I am probably more shocked that I am actually considering the new Delta 36-5000 series hybrid. Shocked because I am well aware of Deltas recent decline. That said, I look at all the other manufacturers, and it seems that with out exception, even former stalwart brands, ones that I would normally consider to be beyond reproach, are shells of their former selves.

I suppose my rationale, is that I look at the new Delta hybrid for example, and see the features I want, the size I want, and the price point I want right out of the box, and I'm tempted. I would love a PM-66 or old Rockwell unisour, but my finances for its purchase and retro equipping plus the electrical requirements put those saws out of reach. The same actually goes for a Powermatic or Rockwell contractor saw. Plus, with the space that the motor hanging off the back takes up, just makes the New Delta more interesting.

I would also say, that I am hopeful that Delta is actually trying to address and improve their woeful reputation by bringing some actual, honest to goodness, engineered, and thought out machines again. Perhaps I am tilting at windmills, but hope springs eternal.

[John McBride]

Budget, you say? Me too. I'll stay away from the jointer discussion as my jointer says #8 on it. :D

Go for the Craftsman 113 saw. Not pretty, but they're more than functional. Add the router table, but skip the aftermarket cast iron wing. Not sure why everyone thinks those ugly stock honeycomb wings aren't functional or flat. Mine are heavy as all get out and more than flat enough for a contractor saw. These saws are listed online on a regular basis for a tenth of the price of that delta saw. Yeah, throw some accessories on it and a good fence and you're over $500, but they're good saws. Hard to find a Uni or a 66 with a good fence for $500-750, though that would be a "better" option if it weren't for the 220v issue.

Planer - I've got the Dewalt 734. It planes boards very nicely. It's a lot cheaper than the 735. Given tight financial parameters, it'll save you quite a bit. Given limited space, it's a lot easier to lift/lower to store than a 735. Just food for thought.

Track saw - And a table saw? Again, with budget as a key factor, I might skip one or the other and throw that money in tooling or a router (or two) for that router table wing you mentioned.

A single car garage is tight! I have a small 2 car and get claustrophobic on a hobbyist scale, so my hat's off to you for doing the real thing in half the space! Have you thought about space for a workbench? How about finishing? Do you have the space to assemble and finish a set of cabinets?

Any which way you go, congrats on starting a new venture! Always cool to see somebody push away from the desk and chase a dream!

Will, thanks for you reply and encouragement. Truth be told, I have both the 113 series saws and the old Rockwell/Delta model 10 on my short list. They are still totally there. I'm just exploring the other options.

I am actually leaning much more to the DW-734 than the 735 as I read more. I agree that its size, and shape lend itself much better to my shop limitations.

Speaking of. I'm going to build an Acorn/hybrid bench for along one wall and another small bench that will double as an out feed table/assembly bench. Space is definitely limited in my space. Initially, I will be limited to wall units, built-in, and commission furniture. Kitchens and long runs of boxes will need to wait until I either get more space built, or find a real shop space.

I am wanting both the table saw and the track saw due to there being times and design requirements that will truly require both tools. In my plan, I will easily be able to justify them both.