Which 20" jointer to buy

[Jason Roskey]

Hello, I'm in the market for a new European 20" jointer. I will probably be going with Tersa knives vs. a spiral cutterhead. This is an upgrade from a 12" grizzly, and will be paired with my 20" SCMI planer (with byrd cutterhead). We do a lot of large dining tables so a long infeed bed is very important. I've narrowed my choices to the following, and am wondering what others opinions are. I'm not interested in old American iron and the Martin is more than I want to spend.

SCM 520 Nova - $11k
SCM 520 Class - $13k
SCM F7 L'Invincible - $17k
Robland S510 - $15k
Format-4 51 L - ???

Has anyone had any experience with the Robland and the Format? Felder has it's fans but plenty of detractors, too. Robland seems to be a smaller market player. Thanks so much!

Jason

[Larry Edgerton]

I have a SCM 520 paired with a Minimax F310 and I am currently making a pair of large tables. Ironic......

My jointer is only 12", but I am happy with it other than I am going to install a Byrd head at some point. I have Tersa in the planer and love it but I want to be able to clean up rough stock with the jointer. I had a Powermatic Jointer with a Byrd and loved it. I don't see a jointer as a finish machine anyway and it was nice to be able to run suspect stock across the head and not worry about buying another set of Tersa knives.

That being said, if an F410 was to show up at my door with a Tersa I would not be at all sad.

Larry

[David Kumm]

What differences are spec'd between the SCM models? I'm sure the base is heavier but how much. Is the cast iron ground to a tighter tolerance on any of the three? Robland would not be on my list. Is the electronic infeed or spring joint important? Format and L'invincible will come with electronics but would like to know the other build differences. Dave

[Jason Roskey]

David,
The weights are as follows for the SCM - Nova 1,587, Class 1,658 and F7 is 1,885. The weight difference between the class & the nova is probably just the electronics above the machine. They look to be identical with the exception of a couple of bells and whistles like the fence and electronic infeed table. The Format was 2,024 lbs.

[Gregory Stahl]

I have the f520 nova--very happy with it. I tried buying a SAC 20" with the longer bed, but I had a hard time finding someone that could import it.

When talking with my SCMI rep, he told me they rarely ever sell the higher-end jointers, and if I wanted one, it would be built to order. The nova machines are stocked--they usually offer a great sale price on them. He then offered me the 20" for the price of what dealers are asking for a used 16" and shipped it to me for free!

The steel base on my machine is over 5mm thick--much thinker than the k900 series Felder saw I owned at the time.

I too had a 12" grizzly that was replaced with this-- I'll upload a pic with the two next to each other later tonight.

[David Kumm]

SAC was a little heavier build than the Nova but they aren't in business. SCMI is by far the largest player in the industrial game today. Dave

[Jim Becker]

I'd likely be considering the SCMI for the reason David mentions...

[Gregory Stahl]

Here are some pics of the delivery of my F520 and some shots next to my Grizzly G0609 that it replaced. I had a very difficult time getting this machine off the truck--the pallet under the machine collapsed and the crate itself had many holes in it. I could not get forks under it nor could we move it on the truck. I ended up using my neighbor's dock and dragged the pallet off with a chain. Finally, we used one forklift to lift the pallet from the end and the other to get under it! The machine was not damaged at all.

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[David Kumm]

Maybe Erik will post the differences among the SCMI models. Dave

[Jason Roskey]

Gregory, thanks so much for posting the images. Who did you order from? I had the same issue with an SCM sliding table saw. It wasn't palletized at all - just thrown on a truck with a tarp over it. I'm actually replacing the exact same grizzly...actually will save it for back up. That thing is a monster!

[Andrew Joiner]

Hello, I'm in the market for a new European 20" jointer. I will probably be going with Tersa knives vs. a spiral cutterhead. This is an upgrade from a 12" grizzly, and will be paired with my 20" SCMI planer (with byrd cutterhead). We do a lot of large dining tables so a long infeed bed is very important.

I have no experience with 20" jointers. I can only think what a luxury problem it must be. To have lots of wide long boards to face is a woodworkers dream! Good for you Jason.

The biggest boards I flatten are 13'' wide by 9' long. I do it with a planer sled. Every time I do it I'm so glad I don't have to push it down onto jointer tables. With a sled, gravity is your friend and you have power feed already on the planer. You could make a nice stiff torsion box sled for your wide boards.

[Rick Fisher]

I have a 12" Griggio which I am going to sell one of these days, and a 16" Griggio which I am going to restore one of these days.

The build quality is probably in the same class as the items mentioned.. a little older technology .. Griggio however does use the grooved cast Iron, which I really prefer to smooth.

The other day I got an email from Martin USA saying they where over stocked on Jointers and planers. I would buy the Martin if priced close to the ones mentioned. Martin also uses the grooved cast surfaces. Not sure what a martin is priced at..

[Rick Fisher]

Grooved cast iron is my words.. I am talking about this finish..
http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/My%20Machinery/Griggio%20Jointer/P1140282.jpg (http://s335.photobucket.com/user/jokerbird_photo/media/My%20Machinery/Griggio%20Jointer/P1140282.jpg.html)

My old SCM bandsaw has that same surface .. I quite like it .

[Larry Edgerton]

Ha! When I was in my 20's I bought a Minimax SC10 with a planed top and not knowing the difference I had the top ground smooth like my Powermatic. Silly me.......

Larry

[Robert LaPlaca]

The other day I got an email from Martin USA saying they where over stocked on Jointers and planers. I would buy the Martin if priced close to the ones mentioned. Martin also uses the grooved cast surfaces. Not sure what a martin is priced at..

IIRC I believe the price for the Martin T54 is in the $30k range, it's a beautiful machine. I actually visited the Martin showroom to look at another machine, one tip I can offer is to never visit the Martin showroom with SWMBO, seemed like a good idea at the time....

[Robert LaPlaca]

Gregory, that Nova 520 looks like a beast.. Maybe you can answer a question about that machine that even the sales brochure didn't answer, Are the jointer tables adjusted for coplanar using cams (ie. Parellogram adjustment)?

[Erik Loza]

Maybe Erik will post the differences among the SCMI models. Dave

Dave, generally speaking, the Class is the same as the Nova series in regards to mechanical construction but with more electronic or motorized options.

The L'Invincibles are bigger again and typically have some proprietary features that are not available on the Class or Nova lines. I have never personally seen an F7 but know that it has a feature where you can dial in an amount of concavity to the face of your board, for example. I guess the concept is that it leaves some room for glue if you are sandwiching boards. That's how it was explained to me, anyhow.

The Nova's are by far the best selling line in the whole Artis (formerly "Classical") line from SCM Group.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[peter gagliardi]

While shiny and new is always nice, I think you could buy more machine for the $15-18k that you might be thinking of spending. Last I knew, the basic new Martin was $20-22k. But... If you have just a little time, and a little patience, you will have no trouble locating a nearly new, used Martin possibly with some bells and whistles for your target price. And IMHO a much better machine.

[Gregory Stahl]

Gregory, thanks so much for posting the images. Who did you order from? I had the same issue with an SCM sliding table saw. It wasn't palletized at all - just thrown on a truck with a tarp over it. I'm actually replacing the exact same grizzly...actually will save it for back up. That thing is a monster!

I bought mine from Sam Blasco a year and a half or so ago. I don't have a local SCMI dealer--the regional dealer in my area was dropped by SCM Group.

The jointer shipped fine--the shipping company destroyed the bottom of the crate in transit!

What slider did you buy? I looked them over this summer and was impressed--though I ended up going with a new Altendorf F45.

Greg

[Gregory Stahl]

Gregory, that Nova 520 looks like a beast.. Maybe you can answer a question about that machine that even the sales brochure didn't answer, Are the jointer tables adjusted for coplanar using cams (ie. Parellogram adjustment)?

I believe--let me look and get back to you. My machine was good from the factory so I did not take the front covers off. There are two things that look like cams for a standard parallelogram set-up on each side on the back that are not covered. The infeed table follows the cutter head like a parallelogram setup.

[Gregory Stahl]

Just one more thought--the current SCMI Nova jointers will accept the mortiser SCMI/MM offers. I don't know what it costs--but I have been considering one.

Also--if you'll accept used--there is a nice 16" with Tersa for buy it now $3500 on eBay located somewhere out east--I think in Mass. I thought it would have sold by now.

[Jim Becker]

Grooved cast iron is my words.. I am talking about this finish..

{pic removed}

My old SCM bandsaw has that same surface .. I quite like it .

A milled surface is an asset on these wider machines because it reduces the "sticking" that can happen when you get a truly flat board on the flat metal surface...pushing wide stock over the milled surface is SO much easier on the milled surface, but you do not sacrifice accuracy. Some machines are milled as was pictured (straight lines) and some have curved mill-marks. The end result is the same.

[Jason Roskey]

Greg, I went with the Nova slider. It's my first slider and works great for solid woods, which is all I work with. I'm moving forward with the 20" Nova jointer. I actually spoke with the owner of the 16" nova on ebay. It looks to be in good shape but I'd rather get the 20" for the longer tables. At $3,500 it won't be around long.

[Peter Quinn]

A milled surface is an asset on these wider machines because it reduces the "sticking" that can happen when you get a truly flat board on the flat metal surface...pushing wide stock over the milled surface is SO much easier on the milled surface, but you do not sacrifice accuracy. Some machines are milled as was pictured (straight lines) and some have curved mill-marks. The end result is the same.


You ain't kidding! I worked with a 20" Tiawan import jointer for some years...bane of my existence...had those flat shiny mirror polished tables that some amateur new tool collectors seem to prize but actual wood workers know are evil....anything long over maybe 14" width took 2-3 guys to pull over the 4 knife terminus head. One guy pushing, one guy pulling, one guy in the middle playing hold down. When you have 3 mechanics working one board, and you bill those guys at $75/hour, in wood working terms, thats just plain old stupid. So you get the el cheepo chinois machine for $8.5K....great value yes? Until you figure out how much you've lost over the years in productivity with guys fighting those stupid cheap shiny flat tables, and realize the Martin is actually cheaper on a 10 year basis. So count me among the "mill my tables" crowd.

[John Coloccia]

Ha! When I was in my 20's I bought a Minimax SC10 with a planed top and not knowing the difference I had the top ground smooth like my Powermatic. Silly me.......

Larry

ROFL. I'll bet you thought back to that day every time you had to flatten a board, or spent many many hours trying to invent some sort of universal planer sled, didn't you?

[David Kumm]

That surface was known as cold planed in the old days. It was the preferred method of machining tables but more expensive. For those of us who buy used, it was particularly beneficial because you can easily spot the wear areas on the table. Most surfaces are ground with the circular swirl marks- sometimes called Blanchard grinding - but that may not always be the correct term. If you look at machines of various price points, there are huge differences in the quality of the grind. A few old machines were even planed with lines in both directions. Boards skated across those surfaces. Just a few machines sport planed surfaces anymore. Most quit doing that in the 90s or went out of business. Dave

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks to David Kumm for that "cold planed" term. I have referred ,in error, to it as hand scraped.

[Jeff Duncan]

Yup, if anyone is curious there are a couple vids on youtube of large parts being planed. It's actually pretty impressive to see the size machine required to do something as large as a jointer table. Gives you a new appreciation for those tables and why it's not done on inexpensive machinery.

jeffD

[Jason Roskey]

Just one more thought--the current SCMI Nova jointers will accept the mortiser SCMI/MM offers. I don't know what it costs--but I have been considering one.

Also--if you'll accept used--there is a nice 16" with Tersa for buy it now $3500 on eBay located somewhere out east--I think in Mass. I thought it would have sold by now.

Gregory, I went forward with the Nova jointer. Do you know where I can see the mortiser in action or more info on it? thanks so much.

[Gregory Stahl]

I think there is a section in the manual about the mortiser with a bunch of pictures showing set-up and use. I can't remember which forum, but if you do some searching there are several posts for the mortiser being used on the 16" j/p. I think it is the same basic design, but the bolt pattern to mount to the F520 might be larger. Someone had one in the classifieds a year or so ago. I wanted to buy it but his measurements did not match my machine so I didn't risk it.

You bought a nice slider--SCMI makes great machines.

Greg

[Gregory Stahl]

I was just remembering you are primarily a furniture maker. If it was me--I would buy the multi-router before adding a mortiser to the jointer. I use my multi-router all the time--the speed and accuracy can't be beat. I only want the SCMI mortiser for longer tenons than I can do with a router bit. My experience has been with the Laguna Platinum mortiser and the Laguna LBM 200. The Platinum looks like a knock-off of the SCMI/MM design but more cheaply made.