Bought some Shapton Pros

[Richard Hutchings]

I bought the 100 and 8000 from Marc Kerschner in the classifieds. After using oil stones all my life, I really enjoyed using these. Although these stones are wider than my HF diamond stones, I used the 260 to flatten them when I was done sharpening a couple of things. I think they worked perfect and I see no reason to purchase the big 10" diamond stone for flattening. So far at least. Now I'm on the lookout for a used 5000 to complete my set.

[Mike Henderson]

If you use one stone to flatten another, you will most likely not wind up with two flat stones. You either have to use three stones in a certain sequence, or have a reference flat, such as a diamond plate, to flatten a stone.

If you rub two stones together long enough, the most likely outcome is that one will become convex and the other concave.

Mike

[Richard Hutchings]

I don't think the diamond stone, albeit a cheap Harbor Freight tool, is going to dish. It's diamonds on a steel plate.

[Mike Henderson]

I don't think the diamond stone, albeit a cheap Harbor Freight tool, is going to dish. It's diamonds on a steel plate.
Okay, I thought you were referring to another stone, not a diamond plate. Note that I specified that a diamond plate would be a good flattening medium.

Mike

[Richard Hutchings]

I'm curious to see how long these $10 for a set of three diamond stones will work for this or if I'll actually find a need for better quality at some point. $163 for a flattening stone is way out of my budget. I'll probably have to go to wet dry sandpaper on glass if this doesn't continue to give me good results.

[bridger berdel]

If your set of ~$10~ HF diamond stones are the same as mine, here's my take:

they arent very flat.
they fell of of the plastic base.
they get light use, but in 5 or 6 years they dont show signs of wear.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Perhaps a 4000. I find things go well going from 1000 to 4000 to 8000.

[Richard Hutchings]

I don't think they make 4000. I see 2000 and 5000

[Richard Hutchings]

I see they make a 4000 with the glass backing. Maybe I'll get that.
Thanks for the input Malcom.

Does any one actually own that almost $400 dollar lapping stone. Seems like if my 3 dollar diamond stone can do the job, I don't see the point. Are there other options?

[Derek Cohen]

I see they make a 4000 with the glass backing. Maybe I'll get that.
Thanks for the input Malcom.

Does any one actually own that almost $400 dollar lapping stone. Seems like if my 3 dollar diamond stone can do the job, I don't see the point. Are there other options?

Hi Richard

Actually, I do have the Shapton diamond plate - only I paid about $75 for mine, which is why I jumped on it several years ago. It is only used for flattening waterstones, and it should last a long time still. Is it any better than the cheaper DMT Extra Coarse diamond stone it replaced? Probably not, but the Shapton is more pleasant to use and the is peace of mind that it is flat. Plus there is an incentive not to use it for anything else.

The issue really is that you need a dedicated diamond stone for flattening waterstones. It must not be used for metal, which will wear it out eventually, or cause it to become uneven sooner rather than later. There are a number of options for a dedicated diamond stone, but aim for 8" x 3" as a minimum size.

With regards an intermediary waterstone, the usual recommendation (which I had for several years) is 1000/5000/8000 in the Pro Shapton range. Look at this as a system - the jumps in grit size are calculated so that one takes fewer honing strokes on the next grit up to remove the scratches of the previous grit.

The 8000 is an excellent stone. I was made a gift of the 12/15000 otherwise would have stuck with it. With the 8000 as the finish stone, I would organise the selection of other stones around it. For example, if you want a two-stone team (which will make for a little extra work removing scratches) then perhaps the 2000/8000 may be an option. Otherwise I would be looking for a 1000/5000 to go with the 8000.

Another alternative is this: the 1000 Pro Shapton is a fantastic stone. It is possible to do better than the 5000 Pro Shapton, however. The Sigma 6000 is better, but now we are getting too close to the 8000 Shapton. I woulder if there is a report here on a Sigma or other stone from someone (Dave?) who has made the comparison with the Pro Shapton?

Stay away from the glass Shaptons.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Sorry, my bad. I thought for sure they had a 4000, but the 5000 would be fine. The Shaptons are excellent stones.

[Richard Hutchings]

Well, they do have 4000 but it's the one with the glass bottom. I think the only difference is that you get to use every last bit of the stone down to the glass. Great idea.

[Richard Hutchings]

Derik, if I find one in that price range, I'll start saving my pennies.

[Derek Cohen]

Well, they do have 4000 but it's the one with the glass bottom. I think the only difference is that you get to use every last bit of the stone down to the glass. Great idea.

My understanding is that the glass stones are a different composition to the Pro stones. David can probably tell you more. You essentially get half a stone for your money. They are not a good purchase.

I epoxied all my Shapton Pros to glass anyway. This not only makes them last longer, but helps keep their shape.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Shapton1.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ian maybury]

Based on recommendations at different times i've been using a 400 grit Atoma economy to flatten 120, 1000, 2000, 5000 and 12000 Shapton Pros.: http://www.fine-tools.com/diasharpener.html

Not sure what the availability in the US is (possibly cheaper), but they are the equivalent of about $100 in Europe. I've just bought a second one (they offer a replacement self adhesive diamond coated foil for application to the aluminium backing plate too which is a slightly cheaper resurfacing option - see link) - the first did a lot of heavy lifting during the set up of almost 20 chisels, and also a number of Veritas plane irons. Before that it did all sorts of metal finishing jobs - including several major stoning offs as i hand scraped my out of flat jointer tables. I finally killed it in a moment of desperation by trying to use it to dress a Tormek wheel - it pulled the diamonds out of a section. By then it wasn't cutting very well anyway. It'd probably last almost idefinitely if just used to flatten stones for resharpening.

Can't say how it compares to other plates, and can't say how good they normally are - but it was very flat. This i know because as soon as it started cutting a bit irregularly i started having problems in getting a uniform finish all over the single bevels on the Japanese chisels i was doing...

I'm using more stones than some (e.g. David has been using just the 1000 and 12000 i think), but the Shaptons certainly do a pretty amazing job. I've not done enough to reach any conclusion on that yet, but the 2000 and especially the 5000 while they work fine have quite a different feel in use on white steel/O1 and A2) to the 1000 and 12000. Almost as though the matrix is much harder and more slick. This is so obvious that it probably is not by accident. Perhaps they are intended not to cut as aggressively as the other two - to (one or the other) be used as an intermediate step to help keep the surface flat/allow the grits to wear so they cut more finely/work out scratches before final polishing?

The 2000 is by Shapton's recommendations not necessary on carbon steel, they suggest going straight from 1000 to 5000. What is apparently their recommendations table is here: http://www.fine-tools.com/shapton-instructions.html

My (only slight) disappointment was the 120 - i had hoped it would shift metal faster and have been a viable solution for heavy bevel reshaping by hand/with no heat. It actually worked just fine, but wears more quickly, needed some running in to get down to consistently performing material, and scratches more for the amount of metal it removes. Knowing the Japanese i doubt that this is by accident, and that it's made with specific uses in mind. Suspect it's intended for removing just micro chipping on knife and chisel edges subject to heavy use - that i was trying to use it for something it wasn't made for...

[Richard Hutchings]

I sharpened 6 Marples chisels, 2 knives and a block plane blade so far. From my short experience, I don't see a need for an in between stone. I'm sure there are tools out there that have much harder steel than mine, but until I get some, I thing the 1000 and 8000 and a strop is all I need. Nothing like shiny sharp edges on your tools!!! I don't have my shop back together yet so I can't even try them. Waaa!:(

[Matthew N. Masail]

I had a shapton 1K + 8K and Chosera 800 and 3000 on my bench side by side just last week. the shapton 8K does polish more than the 3k chosera but I got a better edge out of the chosera. maybe because the shapton could use a stone in between and maybe because I'm familiar with the chosera and how it works. the 8k shpaton is a very decent stone, not my cup of tea but it cuts well and didn't load on me. the 1k shapton is great, and the chosera 800 is very similar, not much between them, but I like the aggressive feel of the shapton.

[Bob Jones]

What's wrong with the glass shaptons? I bought the 1k, 4k, and 8k and they work well for me. Are the pros a better deal or better medium?

[Mike Henderson]

What's wrong with the glass shaptons? I bought the 1k, 4k, and 8k and they work well for me. Are the pros a better deal or better medium?
The negative thing I heard about the glass Shaptons is that the sharpening part is relatively thin. Of course, it takes a long time to wear out a sharpening stone. With the pro Shaptons, if you ever wore them down to the level that you were afraid they would break, you could epoxy them to a piece of glass.

Mike

[Winton Applegate]

Well now in actual practice . . .

. . . . I have used my diamond plate a whole bunch on blade backs . . . eventually abusing the plate by pressing really hard out of frustration with the slow progress (until I got smart and started using zirconia sanding belt on a flat surface; cuts much faster) and used the diamond plate on steel blade bevels for sharpening and still use it for that.

My diamond plate (http://www.amazon.com/DMT-W250CXNB-10-Inch-DuoSharp-Extra-Coarse/dp/B00004WFUL/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1418594882&sr=8-13&keywords=dmt+diamond+sharpening+stone) is not ruined or too out of flat to flatten stones on. The grit is so small I find the amount of “distortion” from “wear” is not an issue.

THEORETICALLY there is a wear problem and the plate is not perfectly flat . . . in practice it is not an issue.

I like this plate for the little round holes for the slurry to get out of the way into.

PS: I have checked the flatness of this plate on my Starrett surface plate when I got it and it is very flat.

PPS: the measurement shown is not the distortion of the plate but the depth of the little round hole.

PPPS: Congrats on joining the Shaptonista. I don't think you need the expensive Shapton flattener but a FLAT plate to flatten your stones might be an improvement. Again I recommend the flattening plates with groves or holes for slurry to get out of the way into.
My large pink ceramic stone with big grooves for flattening was not flat and I wound up flattening it on the DMT plate shown.

[Richard Hutchings]

Has anyone ever worn one out? I wonder how long they last but I guess that would be different for everyone.


The negative thing I heard about the glass Shaptons is that the sharpening part is relatively thin. Of course, it takes a long time to wear out a sharpening stone. With the pro Shaptons, if you ever wore them down to the level that you were afraid they would break, you could epoxy them to a piece of glass.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

Has anyone ever worn one out? I wonder how long they last but I guess that would be different for everyone.
This doesn't answer your question, but I dropped my 1000 pro Shapton and it broke in two. I glued it back together with epoxy and also glued it to a Norton 1000 stone I had. So I now have a double sided 1000 stone, one side Shapton and one side Norton.

No problem flattening the Shapton after the gluing and no problem using it since. The epoxy glue is soft compared to the stone.

I guess I could have glued it to a piece of glass, but I didn't have a piece of glass the right size.

Mike

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Well, as long as we are talking about gluing stones to glass, and I hope the OP doesn't mind me springboarding a question here- I didn't think epoxy would stick to glass. What type of epoxy did you use?

What I do love about the Shapton Glass stones is it's very easy to identify each stone because the grit is printed on the stone, visible through the glass. I know that's a small thing, but I do love it.

[Richard Hutchings]

The grit is written on the back of the Pros as well. I don't plan on using that side for sharpening. Now that I think of it, I could go twice as long between lapping if I did use the other side. Hmmm.

[Pat Barry]

I don't think the diamond stone, albeit a cheap Harbor Freight tool, is going to dish. It's diamonds on a steel plate.
I think you need to step up significantly from the Harbor Freight technology for doing this job. They are basically a thin steel plate with some diamond like crystals stuck on. Not only that they are too small for the task you are expecting of them - the diamond plate needs to be about 50% larger than your stone or its not going to get your stone flat. I think something like Winton identified are more like what you need

[John Stankus]

Has anyone ever worn one out? I wonder how long they last but I guess that would be different for everyone.

I haven't worn one out, but I was given an almost worn out 1000 grit glasstone. Rob Cosman gave me the stone at the end of a class that my brother and I took up in Calgary a number of years ago (back when Rob was doing the week long classes at the SAIT location). If anyone would wear out a stone it would be Rob, teaching all those classes.

John

[Richard Hutchings]

I will probably get one when I get some more free cash but for now I don't where it's any different from flattening a large bench with a small plane. I'll keep checking the flatness over time and see if I really need the big stone.

[ian maybury]

Unmodified epoxies were never regarded as great glass bonders. They will make a bond, but over time (with metal parts anyway) tended to come apart as a result of not being able to handle the stresses that arise with temperature changes/thermal cycling. The other big issue with galss is to make sure it's dry/conditions are warm - it's so easy to end up with a film of condensation that messes with the bond.

There's quite a few epoxy based glass bonders about now, so presumably the problems have been overcome. That said the e.g. Locitie professional glass bonder is an acrylic. Quite a bit would depend too on how well matched the stone and the glass were in terms of coeff of expansion - if fairly close it might well be fine...

[Richard Hutchings]

Got to try some real hard steel today. One of my coworkers who is a hunter, told me that could never get his Buck knives sharp and would actually throw them away and get a new one when they got dull. This caused me to dig mine out and see how these stones would handle it. It took a surprising long time to raise a burr on the 1000, probably 5 minutes work. This tells me that I need a lower grit stone for working really hard steel. Once I got a consistent burr, I moved to the 8000. Again, a lot of work to get what I wanted. Need the 4 or 5000 in between. All total I probably spent 15 minutes sharpening this knife and a very little time on the strop. It passes the fingernail test.

[Stewie Simpson]

I have been very impressed with the cutting action of this new bench stone combo. The cutting action on my other brands of diamond stones rate quite poorly in comparison to this new diamond surface. I have been using Dan's Honing Oil as a lubricant for both surfaces.

http://www.heinnie.com/fallkniven-dc521

[Andrew Pitonyak]

What's wrong with the glass shaptons? I bought the 1k, 4k, and 8k and they work well for me. Are the pros a better deal or better medium?

I thought that the only difference was that the glass shaptons have less material and that the purpose of the glass was to allow less material without it breaking. I could be wrong, but that was my understanding. So, the only advantage to the pro is that you have more usable (thickness) in the stone.

[ken hatch]

I thought that the only difference was that the glass shaptons have less material and that the purpose of the glass was to allow less material without it breaking. I could be wrong, but that was my understanding. So, the only advantage to the pro is that you have more usable (thickness) in the stone.


Working off the top of my head and no time to look up the reference but....The glass backed Shaptons were designed for harder steels such as A2 and blue paper steel. The Pros are made for High Carbon white paper steel. That is IIRC.

ken

[Richard Hutchings]

What the heck is white and blue paper steel?????


Working off the top of my head and no time to look up the reference but....The glass backed Shaptons were designed for harder steels such as A2 and blue paper steel. The Pros are made for High Carbon white paper steel. That is IIRC.

ken

[Robert LaPlaca]

What the heck is white and blue paper steel?????

I believe the white and blue paper refers to Japanese white and blue steels manufactured by Hitachi, the steels are wrapped in white or blue paper depending on the type of steel

[Joe Snare]

I own the Shapton Diamond Glass Lapping Plate (http://www.amazon.com/Shapton-Diamond-Glass-Lapping-Plate/dp/B0034YT5VO/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1418771403&sr=8-14&keywords=shapton) and it has no match in flattening because it is a 320 with easy to hold backing. I use it on all my Shapton glass backed stones and they perform like no other sharpening system I have ever used. I actually enjoy sharpening and I hone my chisels after each use and my plane blades at the first sign of a dull blade. A dead flat stones yields a very sharp tool. I start with 1000 then 4000 then 8000 and hone with 16000 but the 16000 is not necessary for sharp but honing with it is a plus. Prior to getting a Shapton Diamond Glass Lapping Plate (http://www.amazon.com/Shapton-Diamond-Glass-Lapping-Plate/dp/B0034YT5VO/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1418771403&sr=8-14&keywords=shapton) I used a DMT extra course continuous diamond bench stone and it worked very well. You must dry it after a sharpening session or it will rust because of the steel plate. If using another waterstone to flatten be sure to use a courser stone to flatten. Best use a diamond stone that that you can trust to be flat such as a DMT. I am not sure I would trust that a Harbor Freight diamond stone fills the bill. (http://www.amazon.com/Shapton-Diamond-Glass-Lapping-Plate/dp/B0034YT5VO/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1418771403&sr=8-14&keywords=shapton) (http://www.amazon.com/Shapton-Diamond-Glass-Lapping-Plate/dp/B0034YT5VO/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1418771403&sr=8-14&keywords=shapton)

[Richard Hutchings]

Thanks Joe. Like you, I enjoy sharp tools and sharpening as well but wow! With that price I'm going to have to be satisfied with less than perfect for a while. I'm going to plan on buying that without any in between jumps to the DMT. I'll just have to wait.

[Winton Applegate]

Shapton Diamond Glass Lapping Plate (http://www.amazon.com/Shapton-Diamond-Glass-Lapping-Plate/dp/B0034YT5VO/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1418771403&sr=8-14&keywords=shapton) . . . has no match in flattening because it is a 320

The DMT with the round holes (http://www.amazon.com/DMT-W250CXNB-10-Inch-DuoSharp-Extra-Coarse/dp/B00004WFUL/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1418792241&sr=8-8&keywords=dmt+extra+coarse) is 220 and works very, VERY well.
At more than three times the price (nearly four times the price) buying the Shapton would be throwing your money away. :eek:
Speaking of throwing money away I still have not bought the Shapton 30,000 but some day perhaps. :)

[Winton Applegate]

Working off the top of my head and no time to look up the reference but....The glass backed Shaptons were designed for harder steels such as A2 and blue paper steel. The Pros are made for High Carbon white paper steel. That is IIRC.

Well first off my Pros work very well on A2 which is the majority of the steel I sharpen.
I have not watched the videos on the Shapton site (http://www.shapton.com/#!products/c66t) but the amount of text info there is pathetic.
This is a good source for info (http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/sharpening.htm) and I bought all my Pro stones from him and he does a great job; fast ship, perfect/safe packaging, good prices though the 30,000 is way out there in cost.

He indicates the HC series of GLASS stones are for fine grained White AND Blue steels.
The HR series of GLASS stones are engineered for hard and tough tool steels such as O1, A2 and HSS
and
The Pros are well suited for sharpening a wide range of hard steels used in woodworking tools, kitchen knives and straight razors. so are a good all around sharpening stone qute capable of sharpening the A2.

As I understand it the blue steel is the equivalent of HSS and is extra tough like the A2. In use I find that is true but the sharpening angle is more important toughness wise than the steel (white or blue).

[Richard Hutchings]

Don't ya just love buying tools:D I'm so easily swayed.
Now I feel foolish wanting to spend all that money. You're absolutely right.;)

[ian maybury]

+1 that the Pros seem to have no difficulty handling A2 as on Lee Valley BU plane irons - 01 and white steels also. I've not tried other brands to any serious degree, but have to say that i so far (curiosity apart) don't feel any need to do so...

[David Ragan]

I have the Shapton glass 8K and 12K ones, with the lapping tool. Love it all.

A couple of years ago, got the stone holder cause the stones rocked a little. Love it too. Was a lot cheaper-i think it was on sale.

Derek from Perth--why do you not like the Shapton glass stones?

[Derek Cohen]

David, I do not hear that there is much difference between the Glass and the Pro stones in cutting ability. However, for much the same outlay the Glass offer 5mm of abrasive mounted to 5mm of float glass, while the Pro provide 17mm of abrasive (which you can epoxy to glass if you so choose, as I did).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Ragan]

That is a great reason.

[David Ragan]

Has anyone ever had one of those glass ones break?

[Daniel Rode]

I use diamond stones for honing but finish on a Shapton pro 15k . 17mm thick for less money was a pretty convincing attribute for me.

Plus, it says "Pro" on the package. I didn't want amateur stones :)


David, I do not hear that there is much difference between the Glass and the Pro stones in cutting ability. However, for much the same outlay the Glass offer 5mm of abrasive mounted to 5mm of float glass, while the Pro provide 17mm of abrasive (which you can epoxy to glass if you so choose, as I did).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Winton Applegate]

Richard H.,
Something to consider . . .
the thicker pro stones (and any other thick stone that has not been glued to something e.g., wood or glass) one can sharpen on both sides of the stone. Now why in the heck would one want to do that ?
I keep one side very flat for finish blade work and blade back work. The other side of the same stone I don't fret over as much and use for cambered edges : jack, scrub and chisels etc.
How do I keep them straight ? I write the grit number on the edge of the stone with magic marker (while the stone is dry) ; the number right side up has the flat face up and . . . well you get the idea . . .