"Top Tier" gasoline

[Ole Anderson]

When I go on Gas Buddy it tells which stations (actually brands) have "Top Tier" gasoline. The way it is explained many refiners have significantly reduced the detergent level below that recommended my many auto manufacturers. Locally Mobil, Exxon, BP and Shell are top tier, whereas Citgo, Marathon, Speedway and Sunoco as well as grocery store brands are not. Does anybody pay attention or care? Or is it just a marketing ploy? The price difference can be quite substantial, up to 25 cents per gallon in my area just today.

[Matt Day]

Sounds to me like a marketing scheme. I've always been told that basic gas is essentially all the same, except for some additives. I would be interested to hear from some more knowledgeable folks though.

[mike holden]

Here in Michigan, the gas blends are dictated by law. There are winter and summer blends and dates between which they can be sold. This accounts for the price fluctuations in spring and fall when the refineries either have an excess or shortage of blend remaining. This applies to the refinery not the station.
Not sure if you have "monkey" or "dance" gas stations in Highland, but both of those brands buy excess fuel in tank trucks at a reduced rate, that is the remainder after the tanker has filled the tanks of the respective name brand stations, it is cheaper to empty the truck before returning and therefore sell the dregs at a discount.
But due to the gas blend laws here, it really does not matter where you buy your gas as far as blend goes. It does make a difference at the station regarding cleaniliness of storage and age of fuel. Difficult to tell from outside what those conditions are.
Mike

[David Weaver]

It looks like the manufacturers had problems and tried to put it back on the gasoline as the cause. It also looks like they have to pay for analysis and to use the "top tier" label, something I wouldn't really want to pay for as a customer when you could just check with the manufacturers and find out their detergent levels.

The summaries I could see of various people suggested that more detergents could lead to cleaner engine bits and pieces, but some also said a fuel injector cleaner in the tank every once in a great while would do the same thing, and that some of the issues that were blamed on the fuel have been designed out by changes in alloys (that don't allow the buildup to occur).

[Ole Anderson]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Tier_Detergent_Gasoline

Reading this tells me that there is something to it, particularly for newer engines where performance is becoming the new standard. I have no idea, however, if the tankers filling up at the distributor all get the same gas or if they push a button "add detergent". :) Personally my most convenient station is a top tier provider, but when I need to fill up the truck, which takes more gas, I sometimes take the time to drive 4 miles more to the Citgo. I have a Vibe which has had engine valve problems and the service bulletin provided to me from GM stated to use only gas from a major stations with lots of turnover so you get fresh gas. No mention of top tier gas stations.

[David Weaver]

You just never know with these branded things what the real truth is, but it appears that Citgo gas is probably fine, too.

https://www.citgo.com/WebOther/TriClean/TriCLEANMarketerFAQ.pdf

the annoying thing about all of these branded formulations is that they can say they see a cleaner engine or better mileage, but there is never an actual long-term study to suggest a difference between one type or another, what % of the time any difference really occurs, and whether or not it's material (as well as commentary about whether design changes may have eliminated it in the first place). Instead, they do a lab test, conclude a difference, and you never really know whether or not it's a material difference to you (as in, does the extra cost equate to extra savings later).

It appears the "top tier" people have two ways to make money, and who knows if they pay the manufacturers to be endorsed in the owners manuals?

Citgo's commentary is very markety, too. Quasi-technical.

When you go out to car forums, you find people who swear they see a mileage difference when they go to a top-tier gas. that's almost comical, especially if they think they see one right away.

[Larry Edgerton]

I just finished up a job in Jackson and drove by two big terminals every day. One was Citco and the other Marathon, but...... The trucks lined up to get filled were just about any brand that you might think of, so jumping to an uninformed conclusion, me, I just buy gas.

Larry

[David Weaver]

I just finished up a job in Jackson and drove by two big terminals every day. One was Citco and the other Marathon, but...... The trucks lined up to get filled were just about any brand that you might think of, so jumping to an uninformed conclusion, me, I just buy gas.

Larry

We'll wait for you to tell us that you chiseled a few pieces of coal out of your exhaust pipe!!

(being sarcastic of course :)).

[Kent A Bathurst]

Might be wrong, but I was always under the impression that the gasoline is all the same in the pipeline from refinery to the branded distribution centers. At that point, the brands add their own stuff to make it their formula - you get all the marketing wizardry from there. That would include detergent, eye of newt, etc.

When Katrina hit the GUlf, the gasoline pipeline[s] to Atlanta were off-line for an extended period. Atlanta was in the "summer forumla" season - as required by EPA. They could get regular-formula gasoline via alternate pipelines, but could not do that because of EPA regs, so they were trucking in summer formula from Florida. Supplies got very tight, and cost went up for that reason, but also the extra cost to transport.

It took a number of days - 5? 8? - for the Govco bureaucracy to process Georgia's emergency request for temp lifting of the summer formula regs. After which, "standard" gas came in via those alternate pipelines for a few weeks, until the regular piplelines were back in the game.

[Wade Lippman]

I have trouble believing that Gulf, Hess, Sunoco, and Citgo all cause engine damage, but nothing is made of it.

The Citgo article was interesting in it's claim that it meets EPA requirements and might be better than Top Tier.

All very confusing. But my wife's car now has 120,000 miles without any maintenance other than consumables, and it has rarely had any Top Tier gas. I can live with that.

[Bob Turkovich]

I'm going to preface my comments in that most of my experience in this was pre-retirement (December, 2008).

We had a customer driveability issue pop-up in December, 2007, that eventually was directly attributable to gasoline quality issues. We determined that by examining returned parts and finding a substance that was not part of the normal build/usage process but could be created at combustion temperatures. Warranty analysis showed zero issues west of the Mississippi or in New England. All of the claims were along the I-75 Snowbird pipeline from the Upper Midwest to Florida. When we talked to the affected customers, almost all had purchased their gas at Costco/Sam's Club/Meijer, however, we were advised by our Fuel/Lubricants people that it was not necessarily indicative of the typical quality of their gas as they did not always get their gas from the same refinery. The refinery that supplied the problem gas could now be providing any number of stations including the "top-tier" brands. The most recent survey they conducted at that time showed the highest quality of gas was coming from Marathon and Speedway. (That December/January was the only time in my 35+ year career that I worked Christmas Eve, New Years Eve and New Years Day...)

Re: fuel injector cleaners and/or fuel additives. One needs to be careful putting any additives in the fuel tank as material compatibility issues (with injector internals) can occur. Injector material selection is tightly guarded by the injector manufacturers and there is no way an additive supplier can verify acceptance with every injector (or fuel supply component) out there. When I retired, the only additive accepted by the three major injector suppliers we dealt with was Chevron-Techron (and I confirmed this in 2012.)

Re: fuel composition effects on fuel economy - there may be a slight variation in FE from fuel to fuel but typically not enough to affect the EPA label. It could be enough to effect a manufacturer recommending a certain octane level (e.g., 87 vs 89) but not to be brand-specific.

Re: owners manuals. I had to sign-off on my portions of the owners manuals for years. They had zero marketing input.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Bob - thanks as always for bringing professional expertise to the conversation. Very interesting as always.

Three quick questions for you:

1. Is the pipeline's real name "Snowbird"? That is too funny, and perfect.
2. NJIT ???
3. EMU ???

Thanks,

Kent

[Brian Elfert]

There is a gasoline terminal locally and tankers from all different companies fill up there. I've been told the gasoline is all the same, but different additives are added to the load depending on which brand of stations they are delivering to.

[Wade Lippman]

There is a gasoline terminal locally and tankers from all different companies fill up there. I've been told the gasoline is all the same, but different additives are added to the load depending on which brand of stations they are delivering to.
The issue is whether the non-TopTier additives are adequate.

[George Bokros]

When I go on Gas Buddy it tells which stations (actually brands) have "Top Tier" gasoline.

When I go to gassbuddy I do not see any mention or link to anything that talks about "top Tier"gasoline. Do you have to be member of gasbuddy to see this info??

[Tom M King]

We typically get 300,000 out of our gas burners, and have never had any fuel related problem with running whatever the cheapest we see is. We use Mobil 1 oil, changed every 10,000 miles. The last truck I owned, before the one I've been driving for the past 13 years, parked beside me at Lowes last week. The second owner said he still hadn't been in the engine. It had 280 something on it when I sold it 13 years ago. It had near new compression when I sold it, and it had pulled a lot more than it was ever designed to.

As long as I can get ethanol-free for the small engines, and not have to remove ethanol from gas again, I'm good.

[Jim Koepke]

When you go out to car forums, you find people who swear they see a mileage difference when they go to a top-tier gas. that's almost comical, especially if they think they see one right away.

This reminds me of my oldest brother, may he RIP.

We all met up in southern Oregon for a family get together one time. He told me about how he was running on fumes as he was getting close to the boarder coming up I-5. He said he held his breath and crossed his fingers because he wanted to wait until he got across the boarder to fill up. California has different fuel mix requirements. He said as soon as he started the engine he could tell the difference. I didn't want to ask about the fuel that was in the lines that was still the old fuel. I would rather just let him have his moment of smugness instead of saying anything about being an old fuel.

On another story since way back in the days of high school one of the major brands (or another for sure) is supposed to have something that makes engines run poorly. To this day wife is still a strong believer in this. She doesn't want me to use that brand no matter what. What she doesn't know is the local major grocery store gas station uses that major brand in their pumps, "that's different."

After years of hearing stories of how different gasolines are blended to make your engine explode I have noticed they all seem to have a few things in common. The people telling them heard them from someone else, usually over drinks during happy hour.

jtk

[David Weaver]

Remember clear gas? My grandmother had an older guy who mowed her lawn for her, and he brought his own tractor. He demanded that she buy the gas, though, which always confused me, and he said that if she didn't buy the clear gas, he wouldn't put it in his tractor and therefore wouldn't mow her lawn.

I still don't know why he expected her...in her mid 80s, to get gas for his tractor when he was hauling a tractor instead of using hers.

[Rick Moyer]

There is a gasoline terminal locally and tankers from all different companies fill up there. I've been told the gasoline is all the same, but different additives are added to the load depending on which brand of stations they are delivering to.
Actually it would be more "which supplier they are buying from", although you are still mostly correct. A Sunoco station would be getting Sunoco gasoline generally as that would be the required supplier, i.e., it would have the correct additives that Sunoco specifies and the delivery tanker driver would punch in the Sunoco supplier code at the terminal when filling his truck. This combines the required fuel additives mixture from all the various smaller tanks one sees at a typical bulk station. There are many different supplier codes, each with different additives. When a driver arrives at a bulk filling station, he needs to enter different numbers into a computer that indicate his company, the supplier they are buying from (raw gas + additive mixture), what product he wants loaded (gasoline, diesel, heating oil, etc.), how many gallons, etc. The raw gas that comes through the pipeline is, to my knowledge, all the same but the additives are different for different brands. whether this makes much difference is your decision, I don't know.
This is what I remember from delivering fuel for a year or two quite a few years ago. I am not saying things couldn't have changed since then.
This is also why you might see a sign at, for example, an Exxon station that says "this product is not an Exxon fuel". I have seen this at a branded station getting diesel. The diesel wasn't "brand name" but their gasoline was. Actually, most diesel doesn't have the additive situation that the gasoline has, so they probably bought it from the cheapest supplier, assuming they did not have a contract with the "brand name" for diesel.

[John McClanahan]

The pumps at our local BP station say it contains "Invorgrate" (not sure of spelling). What exactly does that do for my truck?:confused:

John

[Tom Stenzel]

When I took my new ‘84 Cavalier back to the dealer with the usual list of problems to fix, one of them was a leaky valve cover gasket (2.0 pushrod four). The dealer fixed it, when they were done there was a bunch of black RTV gooped around it. Not long after the engine started to run sloppy, not idling smooth and stumbling. Back it went, this time it was the O2 sensor. I got a long dissertation from the service manager that it was the silicone in the gasoline, and Shell gas was the worst. I had never put Shell gas in it, but whatever.

A few months later the GM dealerships were instructed to get rid of all their RTV sealants as there was an upgraded replacement. Yep, you guessed it- the old RTV would outgas silicone, get into the oil and then get pulled through the PCV valve damaging the O2 sensor. I found our about it from my brother who was working an Oldsmobile parts counter at the time.

That was 30 years ago. The gas was blamed, it never was the gas. It was GM’s own sealant that did it in. That service manager sure was full of something, just wasn’t information.

-Tom

[Kent A Bathurst]

The pumps at our local BP station say it contains "Invorgrate" (not sure of spelling). What exactly does that do for my truck?:confused:

John

Check with the marketing people who invented that noun.

[Mike Cutler]

I sort of buy into it, but I'm not OCD about it.
I have two Mini Coopers, One a 2009 S model and the second a 2013 JCW( John Cooper Works). Both vehicles have turbos and having driven turbocharged vehicles for 30+years, they take a little more "attention". They get Top Tier gasolines and higher octanes because that's what BMW spec's, but I really do it for the turbo's, and the fact that I pass by 3 Mobil's and a Shell everyday, and the difference in price between the "dump and run" outfits and theirs isn't significant enough for me to go out of my way.

I put 330K on a 1989 Toyota truck, 310K on a 1995 Saab 900SE, 300K+ on my current 2001 Toyota truck, 130K on a 1986 Toyota truck, 80K on a 1986 BMW 325ES, 210K on a 1981 Toyota Corolla, and 80K on a 2007 Mini Cooper S. I never worried about what kind of gas I put in to any of these vehicles. Only the Saab was a problem child. The rest didn't seem to care.
I've also owned two Turbocharged Kawasaki's, but I wasn't too concerned at that time about anything other than finding out just how fast I could go. One wheel or two, I didn't care.;)

The item that most folks don't believe me about, is that I've never had to have a clutch replaced, in any of my vehicles, and they're all manuals.

[John McClanahan]

Check with the marketing people who invented that noun.

Yea, but how do they get it mixed in with the gas? :D

[Rich Engelhardt]

I believe nothing the oil industry and/or it's associated political hacks say has any grain of truth about it.
They' have lied and twisted the truth for so long, they have no credibility whatsoever..

"Top tier gas" in my book, is nothing more than "oil industry lie number ___(fill in the blank)" - whether it's true or not.

[Ole Anderson]

I believe nothing the oil industry and/or it's associated political hacks say has any grain of truth about it.
They' have lied and twisted the truth for so long, they have no credibility whatsoever..

"Top tier gas" in my book, is nothing more than "oil industry lie number ___(fill in the blank)" - whether it's true or not.

While I don't completely disagree with you, that statement sounds a bit jaded. My understanding is that "top tier" was instigated by a segment of the auto industry, not the oil industry. Read the Wikipedia article posted earlier and check the references if you must.

[Myk Rian]

Being retired, and filling my truck so infrequently, I just hit a station and fill it.
I do check Gas Buddy, but it doesn't always guide me to any certain station.

[Brian Elfert]

I just buy gas at whatever station is closest when I need gas.

Currently, I buy most gas at a Shell station because I moved out in the sticks and it is one of two gas stations along my route home. I travel almost 20 miles on the interstate and then get off and drive another 8 miles along a road with almost zero retail along it. I am not going to get off the interstate during rush hour just to get gas. Too hard to get back on the interstate and traffic just worse the later it gets in the day.

[Tom M King]

A lot of those fancy sounding names that the gas "contains" is nothing more than what they call the ethanol that is added. "Clear" gas was high test Amoco, back in the '60s, and maybe into the '80s, but I don't exactly remember when they stopped selling it. I know a lot of people wouldn't run anything else here in their boats.

I knew the guy who owned Hobie Cat Company back in the late '80s. He was in the oil bottling business in Texas. He told me once that they might be bottling it for one company one day, and another the next day (he named major brand names, but I'm not repeating them here), but that it was all the same oil.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Up here in the northeast, most (if not all) the gasoline comes via pipeline. Which means that most (if not all) the gasoline starts out as the same. Additives, if any, are added after the fact.

I have to agree with the 'turnover' factor as stated. I do tend to avoid the small mom'n'pop stations in lieu of the larger name brand (national or regional) stations.

As for the old fuel in the lines in the car, most vehicles run on a fuel pump system which the fuel pump runs constantly at the same rate all the time. At the engine, the pressure regulator feeds fuel to the engine and bypasses any it does not need back to the fuel tank. So any "old" fuel left in the fuel lines would be mixed back into the tank within a fuel seconds.

On the other hand, there is a similar issue fuel pumps. When I had a car that required a specific octane (thank goodness I no longer have that requirement, I'm on to my next car) I would make sure to use a station that had a nozzle specific to each octane. I relate the following information from personal experience and witnessed by my own eyes. I was curious (OK, I'm an engineer too) as to the inner workings of the gas pumps. At the station I was using at the time, one of the pumps was under repair. So I wandered of to peek at the insides. This was a single nozzle, multi-octane pump. The fuel flow was as follows: Each grade came into the pump via a different line and was selected at a manifold to feed the fuel filter then the flow meter and finally out to the hose. At the time I was familiar with the type/brand of flow meter, estimated the size of the filter, and the length of the hose (additional research gave me the hose ID). I estimated there to be nearly 1 gallon of "hold up" between the manifold and the nozzle. So if you must by fuel above the lowest grade, you are most likely getting close to a gallon of the previous octane pumped.

As for the winter vs summer fuel blends. On my current commute, I can tell within a week when the blend changes at my favorite station. An instant change in MPG (-10% winter vs summer or 10% gain in summer vs. winter). In the winter time my summer time average MPG of 34 drops to 28 MPG if I have to run the defroster. I knew after one fill up the blend had changed. On Monday the fill up was 12 gallons, on Wednesday the fill up was 13.1 gallons. I asked in side if they had been refilled on Thursday or Friday and there response was "Yes, the truck came Friday just after lunch. How did you know?" My response was "You must now have the winter blend, it took more to fill up today [Wednesday] than on Monday, almost 10% more."

[Wade Lippman]

I estimated there to be nearly 1 gallon of "hold up" between the manifold and the nozzle. So if you must by fuel above the lowest grade, you are most likely getting close to a gallon of the previous octane pumped.


I used to work in a supermarket meat shop. When a customer took a package of steak out of the case and asked us to grind it we would do it; but she got what was left in the grinder and the next customer got her sirloin. Same idea.

[Rich Engelhardt]

While I don't completely disagree with you, that statement sounds a bit jaded. My understanding is that "top tier" was instigated by a segment of the auto industry, not the oil industry.Chalk it up to guilt by association.. ;). (I'm not real crazy about the auto industry either.)

[Andy Pogue]

I'm glad you guys aren't looking at bologna, Its probably best if I don't know what goes in there!;)

[Art Mann]

Maybe I should avoid car companies that manufacture less durable engines that require special high priced fuel. On the other hand, my brother-in-law just relegated his Toyota Camry, which has 360,000 miles on it to local use. Neither the transmission nor the engine have ever been opened up. To the best of my knowledge, he has never bought any fuel other than the cheapest available. Maybe i will just ignore the recommendations.

[roger wiegand]

Anyone remember when Sunoco gas was dyed blue? (or was that just an Ohio thing?) I'm in the camp these days that gasoline is a generic commodity. I had a car long ago that would ping on regular but not on premium, but that is the only perceptible difference I have ever encountered in gasoline, especially now that the computer compensates, at least in theory, for any differences. I've certainly never found a measurable mileage difference despite tracking mileage carefully at various times in my life when it seems I had nothing better to do. MPG in my Mini varies a lot with driving conditions (commute vs highway), but not with branded vs no-name.