Why Is Oak "Dated"?

[Julie Moriarty]

A realtor came through the house to do a selling appraisal. She deducted $15K for the bathrooms and noted "functional obsolescence" as the reason. I asked her why, since the bathrooms function perfectly well. She said tile colors and oak cabinets.

My first woodworking project was made out of pine. When I could afford oak, I felt like I had arrived. Now it seems to have about the same status as pine.

To "correct the problem" the realtor suggested IKEA cabinets. :confused: So even cheap mdf outranks oak? What am I missing?

[Mike Henderson]

I think the words "functional obsolescence" may be incorrect to describe what she was trying to say. Better would have been "out of style" or "dated". In her analysis, she probably felt that the buyers would want to remodel the bathrooms to modern style and because of that she deducted that amount from the selling price.

I don't think there's anything wrong with oak cabinets from a functional point of view, or that oak, per se, is dated. It would be the style of the cabinets and the rest of the bath that would date it.

Mike

[roger wiegand]

Our realtor put it to us very simply-- young people buying a house don't want something that looks like Grandma's house. Period. They want the currently fashionable Pottery Barn/Ikea look and colors. Doesn't matter that it's cheap, nasty junk. We took her advice, put away our antique light fixtures, got rid of the good kitchen appliances for deep discount stainless ones, swapped brass hardware for brushed nickel, painted the place in Pottery Barn colors and sold the house at a good price in a week in a very down market.

The customer is always right, they say. In your own house you can do what you like, but if you're trying to sell a product, like your house, you'd better do what the buyer is likely to like.

[Wade Lippman]

Oh, I share your pain. We lost a boatload of money on our house because no one likes corian or oak anymore. Nothing wrong with it, just out of style. We lost even more money because nobody likes wooded lots anymore. Geez. That is why we bought it at a premium price.

Our new house has granite and cherry. We will probably lose money on it in 15 years because everyone wants oak and corian.

But you got lucky; your realtor picked up on it. Ours didn't, so it took a year of reducing prices to sell.

[Prashun Patel]

Should be 'aesthetic obsolecence'.

Oak connotes 'built between 1977 and 1995', for better or for worse.

Cover your oak cabinets with an espresso gel stain and then ask for a $15k premium to the assesment.

[Brett Luna]

Our realtor put it to us very simply-- young people buying a house don't want something that looks like Grandma's house. Period.

...or their parents' house....and those houses (like ours, built in '84) is probably from a time when 'golden oak' was done to death. Heck, I remember realtors trash talking it back in the 90s. I'm guessing the stink is so bad that the aversion carries over to non-golden varieties as well.

[Matt Day]

Should be 'aesthetic obsolecence'.

Oak connotes 'built between 1977 and 1995', for better or for worse.

Cover your oak cabinets with an espresso gel stain and then ask for a $15k premium to the assesment.

+1

Oak tends to turn off most people under 40.

[David Weaver]

When I worked at aristokraft in the mid 1990s, most of the cabinets we sold were red oak with a light colored stain. It does look dated to me. We sold a ton of rigid thermofoil white doors, too. I wonder what happened to those, because the frames were painted white, and I know white paint doesn't stay white, but RTF sure does.

It's funny that on the roseanne show back in the mid 1990s when they "won the lottery" and had their kitchen redone, it went from some kind of painted softwood to light colored oak to show that they "made it".

Oak is the low cost option for amish and mennonite furniture everywhere I go around here, sometimes maple is the same price and sometimes not and cherry is always an upcharge. Given my location, it's not hard to find milled lumber here, though. Red oak is everywhere, it grows fast and it's common. We were just starting to get increasing orders back in the 1990s for maple and they had added cherry while I was at aristokraft. If I were buying a house (and I'm not boasting, my house still has varnished cabinets from the late 60s or early 70s that I'm slowly replacing with cherry that is already out of style - it has lacquer only on it over a shellac sealer), I would expect a discount for oak compared to a house that had newer cabinetry.

I'm well aware that I will get all of my solid cherry cabinets up, and the next person who moves into the house will want something that looks like it's Ikea, and they'll have the cabinets taken out and thrown away. That's their choice.

[Judson Green]

Cover your oak cabinets with an espresso gel stain and then ask for a $15k premium to the assesment.


Yes do this! With a new counter top and nickel finished what nots you'd have a hip and trend bathroom.

[Lewis Ehrhardt]

The school 'leaders" in our town decided the solid oak bookshelves and cabinetry was obsolete and the classrooms were in need of a fresh look, so instead of having the shop boys redo them, them threw them out and replaced them with some "Fresh" looking particle board ones. To be honest, I hate to admit it, but they were absolutely right! Man, did those "fresh" cabinets and bookshelves look good, all for about three weeks. But no so much when the weighty books started bowing them, and the knocks and dings started taking off the veneer.
Maybe sometimes SOME of the old ways are the best ways? Lewis

[David Weaver]

Our church was redone last year, and all of the new furniture is red oak. I think it's probably still a standard for church stuff because it's durable and it's *extremely* cheap here. About $2 a board foot kiln dried (unless you go to the borg, where it's three times that). The nice thing about it is that whether it grows fast or slow, it always seems the same hardness. And it grows everywhere (plus it's easy to split and makes great firewood).

Good dense clear white pine is much harder to find here.

[Matt Meiser]

My guess is that its not the oak, its the style/finish. The new oak/granite/stainless/tile kitchen is what sold the Mrs. when we we sold our house (the shop sold the Mr.) But mine was fairly light with a classical style (not cathedral panels for example) and the surrounding finishes were up to date. Our Realtor who is a top seller in our area highlighted the kitchen.

Then in the new house we installed oak cabinetry in all the bathrooms, but in a shaker style with espresso finish which is combination that is currently hot. We figure the shaker style is pretty classical and if its out when we sell, we can paint it whatever is in at the time. We took out oak that had flat panel doors and plastic faux-marble tops that screamed "BUILDER GRADE". The appraisal noted this. Keep that in mind--even if you find someone who happens to like what you've got, appraisals aren't guaranteed anymore. If the finishes are dated, they WILL deduct and you may not get what you want. Happened to our seller. And their seller.

The other thing that's changed in baths is counter height. All the ones we took out were very low. All the new ones are much higher.

I suspect your realtor suggested IKEA as a quick, relatively inexpensive way to update.

If you are open to constructive criticism, post a few photos here.

[glenn bradley]

In my neck of the woods, red oak screams 1970's and this may be what her reaction was. No offense to any appraisers on here but unfortunately, real estate appraisers can be pretty loose with what they think adds or detracts from a home. I have had two occasions where I have paid for a second appraisal when the first one was so out of sync with the current reality that it warranted it. One example was a large devaluing for being "too close" to the freeway; as the crow flies, it was 4.2 miles and nearly 6 by road. These things happen. The appraiser has had a bad morning, they were frightened as a child in a living room that looked like yours, who knows? I only know that if you chance upon an appraiser of this sort, forking over another fee for a second opinion has been a very good thing for me two out of two times.

[Joe Samorodin]

Barn boards are the big one for me now. The more character the better, the price is rising on the supply as well. Seems every new micro brewery needs barn wood. Now its in the kitchen, bathroom and architectural details and is being reproduced in melamine panels as well, hipsters they do pay their bills.

[scott vroom]

This thread is making me nervous....2 years ago I built rift sawn white oak cabinets in he shaker style for my kitchen. I'm thinking the oak you're referring to is the plain sawn red oak with the cathedral grain that was so popular in the 70's. :eek:

[Matt Day]

My guess is that its not the oak, its the style/finish.

Great point Matt. 99% of buyers don't care (and don't know) what the species is, they just want the color. I think some people think Espresso is a type of wood.

I agree the OP should refinish, or paint white since that is pretty universal (though as a woodworker that will be tough to do!).

[Larry Edgerton]

I have not finished a house in oak in close to 20 years. But in the Rock/Paper/Scissors vein, paint covers Oak......

Larry

[Jerry Thompson]

I have never cared for oak of any kind except maybe live oak. I do not care for QSWO. I remember my desk(s) at school were all fumed white oak and I thought it was ugly. I'm 72 and doubt I will have a mind change.

[Judson Green]

2 years ago I built rift sawn white oak cabinets in he shaker style for my kitchen.


Sounds nice to me!

[John TenEyck]

Could be the style, Julie, and it's almost certainly the color. The hot kitchen color now is black or something close to it. Corian? Oh no. Gotta be granite, stone, or concrete. Sleek is in, too. Rift sawn white oak stained espresso with a matt finish and you're tre chic.

John

[Kent A Bathurst]

Our homes have always been A+C architecture. Bungalows from the early 20's.

Period oak cabinets, or new cabinets made in the A+C style are teh only thing that looks "right" in those houses.

It is all about the context.

[Justin Ludwig]

I haven't built a set of oak cabinets in 5 years and the last set was for a rent apartment. I do have a set coming up "on deck", but they are craftsman style QSWO. The fruitwood and golden oak stains on red oak are the worst for making a home look "dated".

[Dan Clark]

It's the style and color, IMO. An old antique in a room with a bunch of other old antiques looks "old". An old antique in the proper place in a modern room can look like an art piece.

The original cabinetry in our house was golden oak. Definitely looked dated. Below are pics of our remodeled master bath. (Ignore the mirrors and the window trim. The base, door, and window trim are not finished and the mirrors are temporary.) When a realtor friend of my wife took a look at it, she said something like, "Now that's what I'm talking about!". She was very happy with the look.

Now I just need to finish off the rest of the MBR. :) And then the rest of the trim in the house to be compatible. :(

Regards,

Dan.


http://danclark.smugmug.com/Other/Master-Bath-Project/i-BnBvF9m/0/XL/DTC_2014_0805_1-XL.jpg

http://danclark.smugmug.com/Other/Master-Bath-Project/i-7BKf8FM/0/XL/DTC_2014_0805_8-XL.jpg

[Chris Padilla]

All the oak in our house, owned since '99 and built in '75, has been slowly yanked and replaced mostly with maple and some walnut. Oak is too busy according to SWMBO. Personally, I've never been a fan of oak and I like quartersawn oak even less. I guess I found the right woman. :D

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I want to use maple and walnut. I did make one piece of furniture out of cherry. My wife insists on oak.....

[keith micinski]

Style is some of the problem, but golden oak really is terrible in everyway. Plus, most of the crappy subdivision homes from the 80's and 90's used golden oak cabinetry and everyone knows that stuff is literally trailer park garbage so if you saw a really finely made piece of furniture out of golden oak you wouldn't be able to seperate the two from your mind. From what I have been told people from the 70's actually thought paneling was a high end finish and covered perfectly fine plaster with it. I am assuming this decades "thing" is going to be the chocolate brown or ebony cabinetry. By the way if that's it, I would much rather have that then golden oak anything.

[Ryan Baker]

Oak (in any form) is horribly dated. The only thing worse is paneled walls. It produces bad memories of an 80s hunting lodge or your grandparent's basement. Paint or heavy espresso stain helps mask the ugly but doesn't really fix the problem. Nobody wants to see those dark grain lines anymore.

Corian never did look good. These days it is as undesirable as the speckled formica in your 50s bathroom.

Just say no to oak unless it's for the smoker.

[Jim Becker]

I agree with many of the others..."style", while very subjective, does have cycles in the real estate marketplace. And that's also likely why the realtor quipped about Ikea. Despite being mass produced, knock down cabinets, they do have a modern, contemporary look and come in colors that tend to be attractive to "current market" home buyers. And the hidden message is that they are a cost effective way to update the look to help sell the property. Buyers who see attractive and modern "facilities" are more likely to buy and pay a better price than those who perceive the need to immediately renovate once they move in.

Remember, yours personal tastes don't matter when selling a home...only the buyer's perception matters.

BTW, as an aside, I did all of the customer cabinetry in our major home addition (2200 sq ft) in 2008, but I chose to use Ikea cabinets in the laundry room. They have quality Blum hardware, including metal drawers, and installed quickly and easily. And the contemporary look was just fine for that space. That allowed me to concentrate my craftsmanship time and efforts on the custom cherry cabinetry that went into the master bath, guest bath and wet bar. Sometimes we make choices that for whatever reason include alternatives to custom...

-----
Scott, you'll be fine with that rift white oak, etc...and its timeless contemporary look.

[Rick Potter]

Hoo boy, am I in trouble. I am just completing my red oak kitchen, which replaced a 1978 ash kitchen. Mine is a traditional raised panel oak in a semi dark red oak stain. The counters are part dark granite, part (gasp) ceramic tile, unstained natural oak floors, and the obligatory SS appliances. To further complicate the issue, there is a ceiling fan.

I guess I will never be able to sell the place. I will have to wait a generation, then the only thing I will have to upgrade is to swap out to avocado appliances, and it will sell like hotcakes.

Actually, the next owner, who will inherit the house, already lives here. Strangely, the appraiser a year or so ago, gave us a few more bucks for 'upgraded cabinetry', when it was only half done. Must have been an old guy. Like me.

Oh yeah, my rear fence is a freeway fence...16' high or more. I was really surprised when it didn't downgrade my appraisal.

[James Baker SD]

Thanks Rick. I was beginning to think I was the only person left alive who likes Oak. Guess I will have to just die in my house as it seems it would never sell.

[Peter Quinn]

Whats wrong with red oak? That the people most likely to buy your home don't like it mainly. I'm 45 and can tell you nobody in my circle (gen X, college grads, mostly white collar professionals) likes red oak at all. The 30 somethings seem to like it even less. Why is another question whose answers get murky. But its best to accept it as a fact. There are probably a few people who still like red oak kitchens, and if you are willing to wait long enough you may find those people, and they may be willing to pay you a comparable price to something with a more current preference. Your real estate agent has sent a clear message that she is not willing to wait. Her cut wont go up significantly by marketing your house hard and holding out for top dollar as is...better to discount it, sell it quick and get paid. Better for her anyway. But that is truly the nature of residential real estate, unless this is a dear and trusted friend.

My parents went through this about 5 years ago, probably through away $35K and a year and half waiting for just the right buyer.....finally came down to discounting the place more. Their son (that would be me) politely (that would be sternly suggested) told them to modernize, and offered to do the work. Paint the trim, add back bands to the colonial casing, replace per go in kitchen with hardwood, new vanities, paint all the doors (honey pine builder special a la 1987) reface cabinets (cabs were arch cathedral honey red oak), rebuild mantel....etc. My father is proud man, flatly refused, felt his house was good enough for him, was good enough for anybody and well worth the asking. He also need to put half his furniture in storage...felt like a crowded old persons house....no 30 somethings on the house hunt want to feel like old people. You're out house shopping with your wife, possibly setting up a nest, you intend to grow old together but don't want a complete mental picture of what its going to be like when you get there! You may be sentimental about your home...but the new owners surely wont. So my parents took the eventual hit. My father had to go back to explain something about the well plumbing to the new owners some months later.....saw the changes they had made (two 30 something professionals with child on the way). They made every single change I suggested and offered to do before putting it on the market, to the letter. He was sure I'd spoken to them! Never met them. Somebody was getting paid $35K to make that house what the new owners wanted, and it wasn't my parents!

Its a business transaction. Mostly the home will become about the new owners, their tastes and preferences, their future. Your time there is ending. Want top dollar? Learn your clientele and remodel to suit them. Surely there is a break even point, you don't want to exceed your ROI, don't want anything too specifically trendy. Wanna bet those metal, glass, and glass tile backslashes will all be in dumpsters in 20 years? Whats wrong with red oak? Its ruddy, oddly pink with irrepressible yellow undertones that make flesh look jaundiced, the grain pattern is course and inelegant, and almost always was worked in a style that lacked definition, makes me feel like I'm eating in a cracker barrel, gives me nightmares of the furniture in the room I grew up in. Parents used to remind me I was lucky to have that furniture....when I go my own apartment they offered it to me, but I preferred the stacked milk crates I was using while I saved for the BE maple dressers I have now! Kids..theres no talking to them.

[Andrew Hughes]

You must live next to the 210, my house has red oak floors, was put in in the mid 50s.Not the skinny stuff these are 3 inch wide.My floor guy Gary says the wider Bruce flooring are an upgrade at the time.I feel lucky.My kitchen cabs just come out last week.All original Doug fir with 1/6 of paint.I live over by the village in claremont.

[Art Mann]

Eventually, every style and every material will look dated. I remember when painted cabinets were all the rage. Then light stained oak became popular. Then it was varnished hard maple or cherry. I remember when resurrected art deco was all the rage. Then it looked silly. Now it seems to be stylish again. It appears that painted and dark stained cabinets are currently popular. When I first got married, everyone wanted "antiques" to furnish their houses. Most of it was just early 20th century junk. All these changes aren't a progression; it is a cycle. If you live long enough you will recognize it. It might very well be true that a person can have oak cabinets installed in his house today and when it goes up for sale a several years later, it might be just the material everyone wants because by that time the "retro" look of the 20 teens might be all the rage.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Always remember that an appraisal is an opinion. When I had my broker's licensee, I took a couple of appraisals courses. In one, the majority of the class disagreed with instructor on one item of appraisal he thought should be lower. They said that was what THEIR clients were looking for, so for them it was a positive, instead of a negative. Best way to sell your house is an auction, with a reserve minimum. House is sold as, where is. Qualify your bidders, and let them have a go at it. If it doesn't fetch your reserve, you don't have to sell.

[Pete Moe]

I used to work in a sign shop back in the late 80's and made displays for real estate companies model homes - you know the ones that show the floor plans of all the house designs.

More than half of 'em were red oak ply with Minwax Golden Oak stain and polyurethane finish.

I swore on my Soul that I would never, ever use that combination again.

I have a similar attitude toward Pina Coladas, after a really unfortunate night my freshman year of college.

Love the gel stain idea. The more dated the door panel design, the darker the stain.

[Wade Lippman]

Best way to sell your house is an auction, with a reserve minimum. House is sold as, where is. Qualify your bidders, and let them have a go at it. If it doesn't fetch your reserve, you don't have to sell.
If you have a $80,000 house, and a couple dozen like it sell every week, that might be a good idea. But if it isn't going to appeal to lots and lots of people I can't see an auction.

[John Goodin]

I agree with Matt and the others who mentioned color. I am in others peoples' houses all the time and the wood type is not a big a deal if it is stained dark. (Java, espresso). Two weeks ago I was in seven model homes in one day. five had dark cabinets so dark the wood choice didn't matter. The other two were lighter but out of maple/birch or some other nondescript wood. Most homes built within the last 7 or ten years have dark cabinets at least in the kitchen. White bath cabinets are still somewhat common but not as popular as they we just a couple of years ago.

[Rick Potter]

My wife and I watch a lot of home improvement and house flipping shows. There for a while, you could almost bet that if there was a white kitchen, they would put in stained cabinets, but if there were stained cabinets, they change them out or paint them white.

Last week some flipper took out nice looking medium oak raised panel cabinets, and replaced them with some nice looking medium mystery wood flat panel cabinets. If you blinked, you might have missed the fact the kitchen was redone.

Moral is, they have to change something, or there is no drama on the show. I guess they have to destroy the old useable cabinets to put a little action into the show also. That does get to me, and I always think of how Habitat could use those good cabinets. Nice ones go fast at our local store.

[Brian W Smith]

Industry driven advertising turning otherwise,reasonable thinking folks into a bunch of bottom feeders.

Could write a book on the subject but will leave it as stated above.The whole notion really kicked into high gear after WWII......communication/technology advances merged with Madison Ave.

[Dan Hintz]

Just closed on a new house last month... chocolate floors and antique white cabinets (not a fan of the cabinet color style, but you can't have everything). I like the floors. We saw house after house with blonde oak... it screamed "outdated", and every one dropped several points in our self appraisals. It just didn't look attractive (and the often-paired brass light and sink fixtures just didn't help the case).

[William C Rogers]

More than anything I think color and style are the key factors. Surrounding area also plays a factor IMO. There were so many of the cathedral style red oak cabinets they became too common. In my previous house I had "cheap" looking cabinets. The doors were slab MDF painted white. Yes, I bought it with those cabinets 15 years before and they didn't look that bad at the time. I ended up refacing them to sell the house. I used cherry because I thought it would be nicer looking than oak for this house. Also there were cabinet doors with shelves. I installed pull outs in all of them. I also made spice holders in one of the upper cabinets. All of these changes were to get away from the 1980's style. Nobody cares what the boxes look like inside. You can make a nice change just by refacing existing cabinets.
301965301966
My previous cabinets.

For or my new house I made my cabinets from African Mahogany. These are shaker style. All of the lower have drawers except for speciality for the mixer lift and cutting board storage. Also for the blind cabinet that has a Rev-A-Shelft pull out. My wife says these are all the latest things. I don't think Mahogany will go out of style as it is not common, but the shaker style may.

edit spelling

[Jim Matthews]

But in the Rock/Paper/Scissors vein, paint covers Oak......Larry

+1 on this.
Our kitchen has the raised panel oak doors
that were commonplace at the time it was built.

The finish had denatured to something between orange and tangerine.
It was also sticky. The paint remodel was effective, short term.

Rather than rebuild your kitchen, put on new doors that resemble
something your realtor recommends. There's probably nothing wrong
with the cabinets.

If it was me, I wouldn't do anything approaching a remodel.
The next buyers will do that, to their taste.

http://homebuyinginstitute.com/staging/

[keith micinski]

I have been using a place called cabinets to go recently and they also came with really nice hardware that I assumed was a Blum reproduction. To me the nice hardware is the biggest thing your getting in a cabinetry job. The boxes are not as nice on these but you know what, I think it will be fine. The boxes literally just sit there, I am pretty sure they will make it 15-20 years and the doors and face frames are at least made out of a hardwood. In 15-20 years, as you are finding out, no matter what shape they are in they will probably be out of style anyway. Oak is one of the few thinsgs that doesn't seem to have maintained it's "timeless" feel. Although, I still maintain its the pesky golden variety bringing everyone down. That nice dark stained antique looking oak in the pictures above probably wouldn't have drawn any ire from the appraiser at all.

On a side not I flipp houses and if I had an appraiser deduct something because it was their opinion that the product while fine was outdated, I would probably be arrested for murder. It's not their job to asses market trends.

[Matt Meiser]

Walk through some brand new houses in the same price range as yours if possible and you'll get a good idea of the colors and finishes that are in. You might even find ideas you like for your next house. We ended up painting about 1/2 our house the #1 selling color at our local SW store (mocha or something like that.)

[David Weaver]

...appraiser ... It's not their job to asses market trends.

I thought that was precisely their job?

[Ole Anderson]

When I built my home in 1975 I went with dark stained Pine trim and matching Birch slab doors. Cabinets were dark Oak Formica. Over 5 years I yanked it all out and replaced it with, you guessed it, golden oak trim and slab doors. Finished the transformation 20 years ago. Also went with the white euro style kitchen cabs with the golden oak pulls along the bottom. Then I built this huge computer hutch out of Oak, golden too. When I finally got to the master bedroom, I switched over to a dark Red Oak stain when I switched out to Oak from the original Pine and Birch, which by then had been painted. Went with the same stain on the Mission style Oak bed. Looks much better than the golden color. BUT I plan on living out my life in this house so I don't give a hoot what somebody else thinks of my tastes. I did migrate to Hickory last year with my second kitchen remodel.

[Jason Roehl]

Heck, our house was built in 1974. Still rockin' the dark-stained pine. The kitchen cabinets are a dark brown oak, with a funky ladder style of door (holy cow these things are ugly). In the basement, we still have the heavy, burlap-like wallpaper, combined with dark wood paneling (it's actually wood!), and the half bath there has a slightly different style of burlap wallpaper, a dark particle board/thermofoil cabinet and a Brady Bunch orange laminate countertop. We have no plans to move at any time in the future, so it's going to get redone how we like it, and we'll go from there. I want to do hickory cabinets in the kitchen, some hickory flooring in the living/dining room, then I was thinking oak trim throughout, but we'll see. Maybe I'll go maple. Either way, it would get no stain, shellac and waterborne only. I like the oil-rubbed bronze finishes, so we'll do that for door knobs, cabinet pulls, etc. Some day.

So many people change jobs so often now that they don't expect to be in a house more than 5 years, and the styles seem to change so quickly now that if that's your thing--always having the latest style--you may as well use the disposable cabinets from IKEA.

[Chris Hachet]

Depends on the price your trying to sell your house in also. Around here, almost EVERYTHING has oak cabinets if the house is below about 250K...

[Jim Matthews]

For or my new house I made my cabinets from African Mahogany. These are shaker style. All of the lower have drawers except for speciality for the mixer lift and cutting board storage. Also for the blind cabinet that has a Rev-A-Shelft pull out. My wife says these are all the latest things. I don't think Mahogany will go out of style as it is not common, but the shaker style may.

edit spelling

I look at pictures of houses like this and one idea springs to mind,
no kids. Everything is still square, there are no broken handles
and the marble has no gnaw marks or superglued chips in place.

By the time I can have a kitchen that looks this good,
they won't let me handle sharp objects.

[Chris Hachet]

I look at pictures of houses like this and one idea springs to mind,
no kids. Everything is still square, there are no broken handles
and the marble has no gnaw marks or superglued chips in place.

By the time I can have a kitchen that looks this good,
they won't let me handle sharp objects.

I have raised a family of five in my house, and ours was always the house everyone wanted to hang out at. Well loved might describe our current home....which is why I will be building a set of cabinets sometime in the next year.

[Jeffrey Martel]

As one of the 20-somethings that is talked about, if I was shopping for a house (which I did last year) and a kitchen had oak cabinets and some colored countertops and a tile floor, you better believe that it is going to be ripped out and re-done. That's going to go into whether I feel the house is worth the money or not.

For my purposes, Oak should not be used outside of the shop when a cheap hard wood is needed. I don't care for it at all, even quarter sawn. Although I love the mission/Arts & Crafts style, I much prefer that in Cherry or Walnut. I'm currently doing all of my main floor furniture in a A&C style out of Walnut.

[William C Rogers]

When I worked at aristokraft in the mid 1990s, most of the cabinets we sold were red oak with a light colored stain. It does look dated to me. We sold a ton of rigid thermofoil white doors, too. I wonder what happened to those, because the frames were painted white, and I know white paint doesn't stay white, but RTF sure does.

It's funny that on the roseanne show back in the mid 1990s when they "won the lottery" and had their kitchen redone, it went from some kind of painted softwood to light colored oak to show that they "made it".

Oak is the low cost option for amish and mennonite furniture everywhere I go around here, sometimes maple is the same price and sometimes not and cherry is always an upcharge. Given my location, it's not hard to find milled lumber here, though. Red oak is everywhere, it grows fast and it's common. We were just starting to get increasing orders back in the 1990s for maple and they had added cherry while I was at aristokraft. If I were buying a house (and I'm not boasting, my house still has varnished cabinets from the late 60s or early 70s that I'm slowly replacing with cherry that is already out of style - it has lacquer only on it over a shellac sealer), I would expect a discount for oak compared to a house that had newer cabinetry.

I'm well aware that I will get all of my solid cherry cabinets up, and the next person who moves into the house will want something that looks like it's Ikea, and they'll have the cabinets taken out and thrown away. That's their choice.


I look at pictures of houses like this and one idea springs to mind,
no kids. Everything is still square, there are no broken handles
and the marble has no gnaw marks or superglued chips in place.

By the time I can have a kitchen that looks this good,
they won't let me handle sharp objects.

I have grandkids every day after school. We will see how long it last!

[Mac McQuinn]

This thread is making me nervous....2 years ago I built rift sawn white oak cabinets in he shaker style for my kitchen. I'm thinking the oak you're referring to is the plain sawn red oak with the cathedral grain that was so popular in the 70's. :eek:

Scott,
My house is full of rift & quarter sawn white oak furniture and when I had a very successful agent for over 40 years do a walk through for thoughts, she stated "Don't change a thing" it's perfect and the decor was better than any new house she's listed in quite some time. That said, I have a tough time taking Real Estate agents too seriously and basically do what I'm comfortable with and like. If the new owner wants something different, that's what paint is for.
Mac

[Kent A Bathurst]

I want to use maple and walnut. I did make one piece of furniture out of cherry. My wife insists on oak.....

And your point is...............??????? :D :D

[keith micinski]

I thought that was precisely their job?

There job is not access market trends, there job is to assign a value to a home using a mathematical formula that is very accurate. I hear all of the time "what someone will pay is what something's worth". This statement is 100 percent false. What someone will pay is what the value of the item is to THEM. Something's value isn't determined by one persons value. The appraiser can absolutely not like oak cabinetry and think that it won't be a selling point for the home to perspective buyers but if it's clean and functional they should not deduct for it. This would be no different then them deducting money off of your appraisal because they didn't like your color pallet and would prefer for the paint in your home to be more earth tones. Very often what a homes value is and what you can sell it for are two different things altogether but I find a lot of people don't understand that.

[Teri Lu]

Hi Julie,

I assume you're moving for some good reason. That said, you're a victim of the current style perpetuated by realtors, interior designers and the "fashion industry" selling to the Sheeple. Your cabinets could be made of "Gold-Pressed Latinum" and if the buyers weren't Ferengi, then you'd be out of luck.

Personally, I'm not that keen on oak of any variety (or color) but then I'm not any sort of fashionista either. I currently like the simple "Scandinavian" look (not the white thermofoil, but very light toned wood) but not the cheap construction of most of IKEA's line. Their good stuff isn't so cheap.

If you want to see "what's in style" look at some of the programs on TV. One on the PBS Create channel is "For Your Home (FYH)". The "host" is an interior designer shrilly saying "you NEED ... this or that". Note that she keeps saying "... NEED ..." instead that's the "current style".

I know it may give you a lot pain, but "paint will cover a lot of sins". That's assuming there isn't some trim that shows it's age. Paint is inexpensive.

The French probably have the correct idea, cabinets are supplied by the buyer. That way, the style is up to the buyer and not the seller. That's why they "invented" the "French Cleat".

Good Luck,

-- Teri


A realtor came through the house to do a selling appraisal. She deducted $15K for the bathrooms and noted "functional obsolescence" as the reason. I asked her why, since the bathrooms function perfectly well. She said tile colors and oak cabinets.

My first woodworking project was made out of pine. When I could afford oak, I felt like I had arrived. Now it seems to have about the same status as pine.

To "correct the problem" the realtor suggested IKEA cabinets. So even cheap mdf outranks oak? What am I missing?

[Chris Padilla]

Very often what a homes value is and what you can sell it for are two different things altogether but I find a lot of people don't understand that.

Sounds like semantics to me. Home values are determined by what OTHER comparable homes are selling for within a given period within a given location. And those values are determined by what the homes sold for. If what you said it true, then we could set a price tag for a home and forget that it could change for whatever reason. Value is a subjective term IMO. One man's garbage is another man's treasure.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

A home's value is what a buyer/or buyers is/are willing to pay. It's very subjective. It's effected by a lot of elements including current interest rates, local economy, supply and demand of houses etc. It's value isn't relative to it's appraised value for taxes!

In 1977 I bought a home in a now well known, popular Oregon city for $31,500. 20 months later I got a promotion, moved to a Chicago suburb and sold the same Oregon house with no noticeable improvements for $41,000. There was an influx of people coming into town, they were primarily from out of state and the local prices of homes looked cheap compared to their previous locale.

Was the house worth an additional $9,500 because my family and I had lived in it for 20 months? Hardly!

The value it brought at closing was what the buyer was willing to pay or sometimes called "current market value".

[Myk Rian]

What am I missing?
A decent realtor.

[David Weaver]

There job is not access market trends, there job is to assign a value to a home using a mathematical formula that is very accurate. I hear all of the time "what someone will pay is what something's worth". This statement is 100 percent false. What someone will pay is what the value of the item is to THEM. Something's value isn't determined by one persons value. The appraiser can absolutely not like oak cabinetry and think that it won't be a selling point for the home to perspective buyers but if it's clean and functional they should not deduct for it. This would be no different then them deducting money off of your appraisal because they didn't like your color pallet and would prefer for the paint in your home to be more earth tones. Very often what a homes value is and what you can sell it for are two different things altogether but I find a lot of people don't understand that.

I'll bet loan agents and servicers wouldn't agree with you since they're backing the loan and exposed. The realtors probably wouldn't enjoy setting a price based on something other than the value of the homes either.

When I check online, I keep seeing articles saying that the appraisal should approximate the price of the home based on recent comparable sales.

I think you need to substitute the term value for market value. Julie is trying to sell her house, she needs a realistic market value and not a hypothetical value. Otherwise she runs the risk of being like the prior story of the older gentleman refusing to recognize what the market values.

[keith micinski]

Sounds like semantics to me. Home values are determined by what OTHER comparable homes are selling for within a given period within a given location. And those values are determined by what the homes sold for. If what you said it true, then we could set a price tag for a home and forget that it could change for whatever reason. Value is a subjective term IMO. One man's garbage is another man's treasure.


Your making my point. The homes intrinsic value is not affected by the "one mans garbage theory." Value is not subjective in the least. What someone will pay for it is. A homes value is determined by a number of quantitative factors that can be applied to come to a value. What someone is willing to pay should never affect what the value of an object is. I'm not saying variables can't change and affect the value of something. What I'm saying is personal opinions about items on a given day from a singular person have no bearing whatsoever ever on the value of something.

I'm also not sure how you misunderstood me to say that you could set a price tag for a home and forget that it could change. I sold my last home for 7k over market value as judged by 6 realtors and two appraisers. I sold my one before that at 17k over market value as judged by two realtors two appraisers. The one before that I sold for 6k less then market value as judged by two realtors and two appraisers. The house I sold for 6k less then it appraised for, didnt have a value of 74k. It had a value of 80k no matter what I sold it for. This allowed the young girl that bought it to forgo PMI because she had enough equity into the house with her down payment to not need it. Everyone involved in the transaction valued the home at 80k. I was willing to sell it for less and she was willing to buy it for less. That didn't change the homes value at all.

[keith micinski]

I'll bet loan agents and servicers wouldn't agree with you since they're backing the loan and exposed. The realtors probably wouldn't enjoy setting a price based on something other than the value of the homes either.

When I check online, I keep seeing articles saying that the appraisal should approximate the price of the home based on recent comparable sales.

I think you need to substitute the term value for market value. Julie is trying to sell her house, she needs a realistic market value and not a hypothetical value. Otherwise she runs the risk of being like the prior story of the older gentleman refusing to recognize what the market values.

Realtors rarely use the actual value of a home to decide what the price is that it should be listed at. That's why you will see that 95 percent of homes sell for less then 90 percent of original list. Loan agents and services do use an appraisal process that uses a formula with metrics in it to access the value of the home very, very, accurately. One of those things is comparable home values. Actually that is the main thing they use and carries the most weight although it is getting better since the crash and now there is a little leeway on comps. You know what isn't involved in that formula? The type of wood used in the cabinetry. There is a "feel" that every appraiser has and it can affect the value they feel a home has but not that much. Every FHA home has to be appraised twice, by two completely seperate independent appraisers when you go to sell it. The biggest difference I have seen between the two is 500 dollars. That's not an accident. Value of an item and what someone will pay for it have no correlation whatsoever.

[keith micinski]

I would also like to point out that the original posters complaint of a realtor doing a selling appraisal threw me a little. After re reading it I saw my mistake and thought it was an actual appraisal. What a realtor does is called a market analysis and is at best marginal for determining what a homes value is. It's not much better at determine what a selling price for a home is either. Market analysis can very ten to 15 percent and usually will. Appraisals will rarely very much more then 2-5 percent in my experience and in talking with other more experienced investors, that's their experience also. Get more then one opinion when it comes to realtors and then take the average. This is your best and most realistic starting point. Realtors have an agenda when they are giving you a price and that doesn't do you any favors as the seller. By the way I hate golden oak.

The two homes I am currently looking at were built in 1999 and 2004 with perfectly fine oak cabinetry. The first thing I am doing is painting those things espresso. It will make the home much easier to sell. I can't however tell the bank to deduct the cost of new cabinetry that functions perfectly fine as they would then promptly laugh in my face. That oak could stay like it is and if I sold the home I wouldn't deduct a penny off of the price. What I would have to do is understand that instead of having 3-5 buyers come through to sell the house it could take 10-12 buyers and take longer to sell because of it. Real estate is a numbers game, I could have an older couple come look at the house the first day and view the oak as a selling point. The odds are against that though so you have to plan accordingly. Repeating myself, How sellable something is and the value of something should never be considered the same thing in my book.

[Rick Potter]

I saw a good example of a 'market analysis' recently. I entered my address added 'for sale', and googled it.

Along with finding several satellite views and a google street view of my house, a record of when I bought it, what I paid, and the tax bill, I found at least three sites offering an opinion of what the home is worth if it was for sale, Zillow was one of the sites I remember.

The problem? There was almost a hundred percent difference between the low and the high. The high was way too high, and the low was way too low. The middle estimate was low but within reason.

Now that is market analysis. All done by a computer with no human input, in 10 seconds or less.

[Scott Vigder]

Walk through some brand new houses in the same price range as yours if possible and you'll get a good idea of the colors and finishes that are in. You might even find ideas you like for your next house. We ended up painting about 1/2 our house the #1 selling color at our local SW store (mocha or something like that.)

This is an outstanding suggestion! If you paint your unwanted oak a desireable color, I'll bet you can recover a significant portion of the $15k.

[scott vroom]

This is an outstanding suggestion! If you paint your unwanted oak a desireable color, I'll bet you can recover a significant portion of the $15k.

I'm not a fan of painting cathedral grain oak cabinets without either first filling the grain or refacing with maple or similar closed grain veneer.

Re-reading the original post, Julie mentions "tile color & oak cabinets" as the reasons given for the $15K appraisal downgrade. A typical bathroom has limited cabinetry and the cost to replace, particularly by a DIY woodworker, is minimal compared to the cost of paying for a full tile demo and replacement (typically involving floor/base, shower and/or tub enclosures).

[Scott Vigder]

I'm not a fan of painting cathedral grain oak cabinets without either first filling the grain or refacing with maple or similar closed grain veneer.

Sorry, I assumed it would be filled since I always do.

[Mark Woodmark]

If you can hold out for a month or two it will be back in style. What is out of style today will be in style tomorrow. "Functional obsolescence" seems incorrect since as you stated the bathrooms function ok. I feel it is all by design so designers, cabinet makers, realtors, home builders, etc can insure they will be making money.

People spend a lot of money for solid wood cabinets (i use that term loosely) with dovetailed drawers only to rip them out in 5 to 10 years because they are out of style and it seems cheaper to just replace them completely instead of refacing them

You could paint them white, that seems to be in style right now

[Jim Becker]

Hoo boy, am I in trouble. I am just completing my red oak kitchen, which replaced a 1978 ash kitchen. Mine is a traditional raised panel oak in a semi dark red oak stain. The counters are part dark granite, part (gasp) ceramic tile, unstained natural oak floors, and the obligatory SS appliances. To further complicate the issue, there is a ceiling fan.

I guess I will never be able to sell the place. I will have to wait a generation, then the only thing I will have to upgrade is to swap out to avocado appliances, and it will sell like hotcakes.

Actually, the next owner, who will inherit the house, already lives here. Strangely, the appraiser a year or so ago, gave us a few more bucks for 'upgraded cabinetry', when it was only half done. Must have been an old guy. Like me.

Oh yeah, my rear fence is a freeway fence...16' high or more. I was really surprised when it didn't downgrade my appraisal.


Thanks Rick. I was beginning to think I was the only person left alive who likes Oak. Guess I will have to just die in my house as it seems it would never sell.

It's not that it's "oak"...custom cabinet built by someone who pays attention to details including grain and color is different than what's in a lot of homes out there. Well executed oak is gorgeous. The same goes for any species. Cabinet style also comes into play...

But in the end, it's what floats the home buyer's boat, not what each of us prefer... ;)

As to a market appraisal...that's a very local thing and a good realtor knows what's working well in a give geography and what isn't working. They want homes to sell and to sell for the most money possible. I had one done in 2007 when we were trying to determine whether it would more advantageous to move or build on what we needed for our growing family. It was a very interesting process and yes, there were things clearly identified as being barriers to getting top dollar, despite being a home with "history". (c1750 for part of it)

[Jeff Duncan]

I watched this thread with a bit of interest and seems a lot is being lost along the way. Simply put the real estate agent, if a good one, knows what type of houses are selling at what price. They know that buyers will walk in and see x,y,and z and make an opinion on whether or not they like the house. Any "value" put on it by anybody is moot if nobody buys the house. Hence if there are three houses on the same street built at the same time with the same floor plan, same lot size etc., they should have the same "value" and probably will to the bank. However if 2 of the houses have been updated and one has not, the updated houses are going to sell for more and quicker than the dated one. So in reality they had more value to the buyers than the other. And at the end of the day that's all that matters. If anyone believes that new cabinetry and a good paint job don't affect how quickly a home sells and for how much, then they don't know real estate…..at least not in my area.

But it goes much farther than that, if you build a brand spanking new house and try to sell it, it's much easier to sell it staged with furniture than without. This is why expensive homes often get staged for selling. Even ones that are currently lived in will be staged and often a lot of the owners belongings will need to be put into storage in order for it to look the right way. Depending on the target buyer, (oh yes, they're usually trying to sell to a particular demographic), they'll even change room functions. An extra bedroom could become a nursery, for couples starting a family. Or a home office for young professionals or older empty nesters.

Anyway the point is if the real estate agent, (again if a good one), says the value is less because of condition than they're probably right. Doesn't mean you can't call in another to get a second and even third opinion…..I likely would. However they're usually pretty good at knowing what's going to sell in a specific neighborhood for roughly what price, and what's going to sit around.

Lastly, contrary to what many seem to think oak is not necessarily dated, the style of your cabinetry is dated. There are multi-million dollar homes being built today with oak cabinetry, even in kitchens! I still do a lot of white oak in many high rise buildings, and it's mostly contemporary work! It's not the wood it's the style. Same as tile floors aren't outdated, tile that was used in the 80's is outdated!

good luck,
JeffD

[Billy Elliott]

Had light oak for years and thought it was great. This year my wife said no. and this is what we ended up with, same cabinets with java gel stain and clear coats. 302036

[Ole Anderson]

So, is typical raised panel construction (in Oak) more dated than a more contemporary shaker or mission style?

[Jeff Duncan]

So, is typical raised panel construction (in Oak) more dated than a more contemporary shaker or mission style?


It's not quite that simple. I guess if we're keeping this only to kitchen cabinets I'd say yes, very generally speaking typical oak raised panels are dated. Whereas shaker or mission style "can" look contemporary. But there are a lot of variables that can change that. And once you step outside the kitchen all bets are off, there's a lot you can do with oak that will look good. Again it's not the wood, it's what you do with it;)

JeffD

[Steve Schoene]

As an economist I am totally confused by your ideas of value. There is no independent "true" value of anything that can be determined by any "accurate" mathematical formula. The basis for values in the confluence of supply and demand, both of which concepts depend exclusively on what sellers and buyers are willing and able to sell or buy, respectively. Appraisers must find a way to estimate what those supply and demand factors will determine. Commercial real estate is priced as a multiple of cash flow, using "cap rates", but the cap rate depends on what supply and demand conditions, including interst rates, are in that market for that type of buildings. All real estate values are very location dependent, including residential real estate. Value is always subjective to a degree. Of course there are different varieties of value such as "replacement cost value" or distressed sale value, or a common concept of willing buyer and willing seller values. It really is more accurate to say6 value is what you can sell it for, as long as you realize that there are caveats attached, such as whether is is some kind of duress or special circumstances affecting either buyer or seller.

[Mark Woodmark]

Plaaaaaaa.................


as an economist i am totally confused by your ideas of value. There is no independent "true" value of anything that can be determined by any "accurate" mathematical formula. The basis for values in the confluence of supply and demand, both of which concepts depend exclusively on what sellers and buyers are willing and able to sell or buy, respectively. Appraisers must find a way to estimate what those supply and demand factors will determine. Commercial real estate is priced as a multiple of cash flow, using "cap rates", but the cap rate depends on what supply and demand conditions, including interst rates, are in that market for that type of buildings. All real estate values are very location dependent, including residential real estate. Value is always subjective to a degree. Of course there are different varieties of value such as "replacement cost value" or distressed sale value, or a common concept of willing buyer and willing seller values. It really is more accurate to say6 value is what you can sell it for, as long as you realize that there are caveats attached, such as whether is is some kind of duress or special circumstances affecting either buyer or seller.

[scott vroom]

As an economist I am totally confused by your ideas of value. There is no independent "true" value of anything that can be determined by any "accurate" mathematical formula. The basis for values in the confluence of supply and demand, both of which concepts depend exclusively on what sellers and buyers are willing and able to sell or buy, respectively. Appraisers must find a way to estimate what those supply and demand factors will determine. Commercial real estate is priced as a multiple of cash flow, using "cap rates", but the cap rate depends on what supply and demand conditions, including interst rates, are in that market for that type of buildings. All real estate values are very location dependent, including residential real estate. Value is always subjective to a degree. Of course there are different varieties of value such as "replacement cost value" or distressed sale value, or a common concept of willing buyer and willing seller values. It really is more accurate to say6 value is what you can sell it for, as long as you realize that there are caveats attached, such as whether is is some kind of duress or special circumstances affecting either buyer or seller.


I think most here understand econ 101.....but....how do you feel about oak cabinets? :D:D:D

[Mark Woodmark]

Can econ 101 explain why a Mirka sander cost 6 times as much as similar function sanders on the market?


I think most here understand econ 101.....but....how do you feel about oak cabinets? :D:D:D

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Can econ 101 explain why a Mirka sander cost 6 times as much as similar function sanders on the market?

Yes, Mark it can. It's the price the seller chooses to offer the sander to the market. But it's value is only what a buyer is willing to pay.

[keith micinski]

That's incorrect because I wouldn't pay more then 69 dollars for a Mirka sander because I don't need one but from what I have read they have a "Value" that states that would be undervaluing it. But since it's only worth what I am willing to pay then I guess that's that so let me know where to send my shipping info to:D. Back on thread I looked at 5 houses today that all had hideously outdated 1980's fake walnut stained oak cabinetry and I have decided it's trying to give golden oak a run for its money in just plain awfulness.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Value is subjective. You aren't in the market so the device has little or no value to you. If, however, I was in dire need of a sander to finish a project for a customer and the Mirka at a high price was the only one available, I might find it was valuable enough because I am in need of it. My need and a lack of supply could drive the value to me of the sander up to the price at which it is offered for sale.

Back to the subject of this thread. I am reading this with great interest as I will probably be doing a bump out on our home to enlarge and update the kitchen next summer. I want to build and install cabinets that might be of some value should the wife and I decide to sell our home in the future.

[Steve Schoene]

There is oak, and there is oak. What I cannot abide is oak with rotary cut plywood panels. That always looks cheap, and If I were in the market to buy a house I would deduct 15k or more for a house with such cabinets because I would plan to replace them as soon as possible. Now arts and crafts styles with quartersawn oak, that is well finished would be ok, though for the kitchen I'm just completing uses Lyptus instead of the quartersawn white oak that was my first thought. The Lyptus looks very much like mahogany and was cheaper than the quartersawn white oak would have been.

I'm always surprised at how many folks, especially in high places, that really don't understand Econ 101 or 102, not to mention the 601 & 602. Econ certainly can explain the high prices of Mirka or Festool sanders. The supply of such tools is quite limited by the manufacturers who hope to stimulate demand amoung potential customers by selling durability, quietness, and good dust collection systems. These are important for some workers who much sand in occupied houses for example.

[Brian Holcombe]

Qtr Sawn white oak is just as commonly used in contemporary work as it was used previously in modern work. Everyone loves walnut at the moment, give it a few years and everyone will be all the rage about oak once again.

Personally I would adhere to the style of the home. This becomes relevant after the trend passes, I've seen some gorgeous period houses with just awful 'updates' made to them over the years. It's terribly painful to see a modern addition to a craftsman house or a colonial front door and cabinets in a modern house, ect, ect. There is a house in my area that has been on the market for a few years, it featured beautifully done 'craftsman style' everything fitted into a modern house, it just makes you shake your head as one very obviously does not fit the other and no one wants to pay top dollar for a combination of things that do not make sense but are too nice to toss.

If your house is a builder house (of the contemporary variety) I would stick to neutral choices so that they do not become a point of contention with potential buyers. Anything at the peak of trend at the moment is going to be the Victorian style red oak cabinets of tomorrow.

[Brian Holcombe]

Value is subjective. You aren't in the market so the device has little or no value to you. If, however, I was in dire need of a sander to finish a project for a customer and the Mirka at a high price was the only one available, I might find it was valuable enough because I am in need of it. My need and a lack of supply could drive the value to me of the sander up to the price at which it is offered for sale.

Back to the subject of this thread. I am reading this with great interest as I will probably be doing a bump out on our home to enlarge and update the kitchen next summer. I want to build and install cabinets that might be of some value should the wife and I decide to sell our home in the future.

In regard to retail pricing, demand is the variable. There is no way that the retailer would know how many people are willing to pay less than $69 for said sander without lowering the price via promotion and discovering how many people are willing to pay the promotional price. A retail setting is not a good representation of 'value' since the price is pre-set.

In a bidding situation where there is only one or very few objects price becomes the variable and value is then determined since the open market has set the price at the close of bidding.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

Real Oak floors are the Best!

[scott vroom]

Anyone else notice that the OP bailed after the first post? :cool:

[Bill Space]

Anyone else notice that the OP bailed after the first post? :cool:

Julie is not new around here and has started some interesting threads in the past.

My guess is she probably has a life to attend to and will be back when time permits...

[Matt Meiser]

Probably still lost in Ikea. :D

[jared sankovic]

My house was built in 2001 (planned community) and had contractor grade cheap looking golden oak through out (cabinets, railings, vanity's.) I was able to buy it at a steep discount based on the dated look and lack of "upgrades". The selling agent freely stated to me during the open house the owners were advised to sell it lower then the comps in the neighborhood (about 60k under) if they were not going to "update" the look.

[Jim Hampton]

This is an outstanding suggestion! If you paint your unwanted oak a desireable color, I'll bet you can recover a significant portion of the $15k.

My daughter is into buying "old" furniture and putting a distressed look on it and sells it for a mint! To reiterate that point, we brought an old CHEAP Sauder computer desk from a friend's garage sale for $10. She put a distressed finish on it, added modern "chic" colors. She sold that thing in her antique booth for $370. Now she has me building little tables, dovetailed boxes, and stuff out of old pallet boards, nail holes, rust stains, and then she finishes them and sells them for ridiculous prices. I even had to buy a cheap planer and jointer to keep those boards out of my good machinery. Although I'm a hobbyist, I/We have made quite a bit of money doing this. The planer and jointer set me back about 500 and change, but I've recouped that 10X over. I can knock out5 or 6 little boxes in an evening and they sell for minimum of $60. People even know it's pallet wood and is just finished, but they buy it anyway. The old saying "a fool and his money shall soon be parted" really rings through with the market out there.
I'd definitely be looking into a "distressed" look for those cabinets. You'd probably get the 15 back and then some.

[Chris Padilla]

Interesting, Jim. Where are you located? I wouldn't be so fast to call those people "fools" as they are your main clients and the client is always right, right? :D

[Kent A Bathurst]

My daughter is into buying "old" furniture and putting a distressed look on it and sells it for a mint! To reiterate that point, we brought an old CHEAP Sauder computer desk from a friend's garage sale for $10. She put a distressed finish on it, added modern "chic" colors. She sold that thing in her antique booth for $370. Now she has me building little tables, dovetailed boxes, and stuff out of old pallet boards, nail holes, rust stains, and then she finishes them and sells them for ridiculous prices. I even had to buy a cheap planer and jointer to keep those boards out of my good machinery. Although I'm a hobbyist, I/We have made quite a bit of money doing this. The planer and jointer set me back about 500 and change, but I've recouped that 10X over. I can knock out5 or 6 little boxes in an evening and they sell for minimum of $60. People even know it's pallet wood and is just finished, but they buy it anyway. The old saying "a fool and his money shall soon be parted" really rings through with the market out there.
I'd definitely be looking into a "distressed" look for those cabinets. You'd probably get the 15 back and then some.

That is art, not fine ww. What qualifies as "art" mystifies me, but the demand and the price level makes it clear on these.

How about some photos, Jim? Would love to see examples.

[Peter Quinn]

Can econ 101 explain why a Mirka sander cost 6 times as much as similar function sanders on the market?


Uh, respectfully, there are no similar functioning sanders on the market. If you are referring to the ceros....its on its own class, and its costs of production regarding power conversion may have something to do with it. Or it may be opportunity cost. Its way cheaper than a compressor, plumbing system, air dryer and pneumatic sander combined, and its portable. Ever drag a 2000# compressor to a job site on the back of a dump truck to sand on site?

[Peter Quinn]

Anyone else notice that the OP bailed after the first post? :cool:


Yes...I assumed she was busy painting the oak cabinets?:rolleyes:

[Johnnyy Johnson]

I love red oak...but you can thank the TV Shows on flipping houses. The remove hardwood finished cabinets and replace with white painted ones.

[Mark Blatter]

I am 54 and oak turns me off, in particular 'honey' oak.

[Paul Sidener]

A realtor came through the house to do a selling appraisal. She deducted $15K for the bathrooms and noted "functional obsolescence" as the reason. I asked her why, since the bathrooms function perfectly well. She said tile colors and oak cabinets.

My first woodworking project was made out of pine. When I could afford oak, I felt like I had arrived. Now it seems to have about the same status as pine.

To "correct the problem" the realtor suggested IKEA cabinets. :confused: So even cheap mdf outranks oak? What am I missing?

What color is the stain. Dark brown stains are outdated as well. They are probably thinking, light colors lighten up a room. The color of the tub and commode make a big difference too. Avacado and harvest gold are so 1970. My parents had the harvest gold.:eek:

[Ken Grant]

I have been in trim carpentry/cabinets for the last 7 years, and I can count on one hand the number of new houses we have done in oak. Oh and the few houses we did do in red oak were all customs for clients over 50 who thought that oak is 'high quality.' :) We did trim one 1.4 million dollar house where the casework and interior passage doors were all rustic white oak. I thought it turned out well, but they paid a designer a lot of money to make it all come together. If you want to know what is selling in your area, go to the local parade of homes and look at the new houses similar to yours.

[Julie Moriarty]

I've been out of town for a bit and was surprised how this thread took off. I didn't read everything in its entirety but I think the particular problem the realtor had with the "outdated oak", as she phrased it, was the design. The bathroom cabinets do have the cathedral panels, a big turnoff for most today, and she probably took one look at them and everything else in the bathroom went down with the ship. Guilt by association. :rolleyes:

In our kitchen we had an even bigger sin - almond mica doors with red oak top and bottom trim. :eek:

This was the first day of the demo.
http://www.julimorcreations.com/Images/KitReno/old_kitchen_01.jpg


I tossed the doors and drawer fronts and made new ones with Honduras mahogany and sapele. Then I sanded the oak frames down to bare wood, dyed it with ebony and finished everything with Endurovar in satin.
http://www.julimorcreations.com/Images/KitCab/kit_aplcorner.jpg

The HM stock is used up but I had a big slab of African mahogany that I ripped to size for the rails and stiles for both bathrooms and drawer fronts for one bathroom. I have a lot of sapele left over from the kitchen job and I'm using that for the door panels. I'll have to pick up some more AM for the remainder of the drawer fronts. I started this before I went out of town and am now back to it. I'm thinking I'll just finish it natural rather than dye it like I did the kitchen.

I agree that red oak can still be considered in style if done right. The realtor just raved about the kitchen but in 10-15 years someone might come along and turn their nose up at anything made of wood. I can't see ever losing an appreciation for the natural beauty of wood.

[Prashun Patel]

Wow! That's so beautiful. Nicely done. Are you sure you still want to move?

[Peter Aeschliman]

Huge difference! Well done.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Excellent remodel! Nicely done Lady!

[Brian Holcombe]

Looks nice Julie.

I find real carpentry to be pardoned from the whims of fashion.

[Ole Anderson]

Hey, I had the same cabs as Julie except they were white. I salvaged the lower boxes, added new drawers, end panels and doors. I eliminated the soffit, so I made new upper cabs. Went with Hickory with Bamboo flooring and I added Hickory crown molding. I like Brian's comment: "I find real carpentry to be pardoned from the whims of fashion."

[Chris Hachet]

This is a huge inspiration...NICELY done...

[Julie Moriarty]

Ole, that doesn't look like the same kitchen. Beautiful work!

[Mike Henderson]

Wow, Julie, what a change! Congratulations on a very well done job. That's a lot of work.

Mike

[Andrew Joiner]

Nice work Julie and Ole.
I'd answer "Why is Oak outdated?" with some other questions. Why do style trends change so fast? Why do some things"come back in style"?

In the 50's and 60's most people looked at kitchens and bathrooms as utility rooms. Dinner guests stayed in dining rooms. The kitchen traditionally was used for cooking, not show. Open plan kitchens didn't evolve till the 70's. Style changes happened slowly in the home and evolved with lifestyle changes. Now it's common to "make a bold statement" with kitchens and baths. I have and got lucky with my timing and designs. Besides it's fun to have what you want in your home.

[Peter Aeschliman]

I find real carpentry to be pardoned from the whims of fashion.

Well said!! I'm playing the long game with my wife, trying to slowly bring her around to that way of thinking.

We are planning a kitchen remodel (probably down to studs). She wants the standard white frame and panel (flat panel) doors, couldn't care less if they're overlay doors with euro hinges vs. face frame, inset doors. Doesn't know the difference between cabinet grade ply and chip board. All she knows or cares about is that they're white.

I'm trying to push her to think longer term about style and quality. White cabinets will eventually go the way of golden oak cabinets. If you don't jump on the bandwagon, you may not get the "wow factor" right when you finish the project, but you sure won't get the "eww factor" when the white cabinets go out of style in 5-10 years. I have zero desire to redo my kitchen again in 10 years.

I really want to go with walnut cabinets. Man they're beautiful... and you hardly ever see it in a pottery barn, restoration hardware, or better homes magazine. <2% chance I'll talk her into it though. :(

[Brian Elfert]

I sold my house built in 2001 this past spring. It has oak cabinets with real oak floors. Nobody told me in 2001 that oak cabinets were out. The realtor had no issues with the oak cabinets. The house has Corian countertops and the realtor did say that buyers in my price range really expect stone countertops these days. The fiberglass shower instead of tile was another issue some buyers had.

The biggest issue selling my house was the wrong school district. The house is across two lots and two school districts. Unfortunately, the house was in the less desirable district and I couldn't change it even though the kid's bedrooms are in the desirable district. A lot of potential buyers assumed by the city that I was in the desirable district and lost interest after they found out about the school district. I could have sold in half the time and for 5% more in the other district.

I bought a foreclosed house that needed a total remodel. I installed golden oak prefinished doors and molding from Menards (Real wood, not the printed plastic stuff.) during the remodel. The contractor put an oak vanity in the bathroom although it is darker than golden oak. For kitchen cabinets I installed maple cabinets that are a darker color. I reinstalled the ugly laminate countertops for now and will buy quartz at some point.

I think light oak cabinets and woodwork doesn't date a house as badly as the really dark brown cabinets and woodwork from the 70s and 80s. My parent's house is from 1979 and doesn't look as old because of the light oak cabinets and woodwork. The cabinets will need new doors before sale as they are beat up.

[Matt Meiser]

Geography plays a part too. What's in one place might be out another. Same for rural vs urban.

[Jason Roehl]

Right now, I'm seeing a lot of light, cool greens, blues and grays for wall colors, brushed nickel and stainless accessories, dark wood floors and cabinets and contrasting granite. Not my cup of tea, and it's all very trendy, so it will be out in 5 years or so (already been going for a few years). I'm just going to do what I like, which will involve warm colors, naturally-colored wood (little or no stain), black hardware and some deep colors for accents.

[Jeff Heil]

The most interesting trend in interior woodwork I find is the trend towards painted white trim and MDF white painted doors. We live in a new neighborhood with all of the homes built in the last three years. 90+ percent of the new homes built here have painted white trim and white MDF doors. The woodworker in me love the look of natural wood instead of painted MDF. Our new home is one of the few exceptions in the neighborhood with cherry trim and doors. I wonder how long the dark floors and white trim trend will last.

[Mel Fulks]

The appeal of "trends" is lost on me. So many want to be trendy and still show some individuality,I haven't seen that work
well. White kitchens are back again? The merry go round is gaining speed.

[Julie Moriarty]

The appeal of "trends" is lost on me. So many want to be trendy and still show some individuality,I haven't seen that work
well. White kitchens are back again? The merry go round is gaining speed.

My eye for what looks good is strongly influenced by my love of the beauty of wood. I have always hated painted wood and I wasn't too crazy about the almond mica cabinets we had in our kitchen for over 25 years. But at the time, we couldn't afford real wood cabinets and my skills back then were not up to the task of making them myself.

The hardest part about making the doors and drawer faces, was the thought that someday a new owner would come along and tear them all out and throw them in the trash. Honduras mahogany is becoming rare today and by the time that design falls out of favor, it may be on an endangered list. Throwing beautiful wood in the trash because it is considered outdated is a sin. Trends make people do illogical things. Maybe Nicole from Rehab Addict will come in and save the day. :)

[Jim Becker]

OUTSTANDING update of that kitchen, Julie! Wow...what a transformation! (I had those same "almond" cabinets in my previous residence...a tract home...and at that time (1988) it was considered an "upgraded" kitchen finish! :)

[James Baker SD]

Julie,

I have to ask how long all that kitchen work took (as someone who is now in year 3 of a kitchen remodel not nearly as nice as yours)? Seems to me you must have started before your original post or you should offer classes to slowpokes like me on how to get things done :)

[Brian Elfert]

I have to ask how long all that kitchen work took (as someone who is now in year 3 of a kitchen remodel not nearly as nice as yours)? Seems to me you must have started before your original post or you should offer classes to slowpokes like me on how to get things done :)

I remodeled the kitchen in my house in under two weeks this fall including new cabinets, new flooring, and new appliances. I found a local place that stocks cabinets all ready to install and spent $2,500 on cabinets. The cabinets are pretty decent with self closing doors and drawers and plywood sides. I reused the laminate countertops and sink because this was a last minute job and nobody stocks 11 foot long countertops. I plan to go to quartz countertops some day. I wasn't living in the house during the renovations so that helped speed things up.

My original plan was to leave the kitchen for a later project and build my own cabinets, but the kitchen was in worse shape than I thought so I went ahead and did the kitchen after I found the inexpensive cabinets. I figure within 10 years I will build my own cabinets and redo the kitchen again.

My kitchen cabinets besides being ugly were missing a door or two along with broken drawers and water damage on the base cabinets. I thought about overhauling the cabinets, but they were in rough shape.

[Ben Silver]

The most interesting trend in interior woodwork I find is the trend towards painted white trim and MDF white painted doors. We live in a new neighborhood with all of the homes built in the last three years. 90+ percent of the new homes built here have painted white trim and white MDF doors. The woodworker in me love the look of natural wood instead of painted MDF. Our new home is one of the few exceptions in the neighborhood with cherry trim and doors. I wonder how long the dark floors and white trim trend will last.

That trend can be directly attributed to the very low cost of the 'trend' in question. 99% of developers will go with what will sell and costs them the absolute least amount to build. Which is why the electric panel in my house is written in sponglish. Makes me very concerned for the . . . reliability of the electric setup.

[Brian Elfert]

The most interesting trend in interior woodwork I find is the trend towards painted white trim and MDF white painted doors. We live in a new neighborhood with all of the homes built in the last three years. 90+ percent of the new homes built here have painted white trim and white MDF doors. The woodworker in me love the look of natural wood instead of painted MDF. Our new home is one of the few exceptions in the neighborhood with cherry trim and doors. I wonder how long the dark floors and white trim trend will last.

I looked at a number of new houses when looking for a new house last summer. One builder uses poplar trim with a dark cherry type stain. The trim looked hideous because they basically used paint grade trim instead of stain grade and it had all kinds of knots and defects. It would have looked better painted.

[Julie Moriarty]

Julie,

I have to ask how long all that kitchen work took (as someone who is now in year 3 of a kitchen remodel not nearly as nice as yours)? Seems to me you must have started before your original post or you should offer classes to slowpokes like me on how to get things done :)

I think I started in fall of 2013. I got most of it done over the winter. By spring 2014 I had everything done but the drawers in the cooktop cabinet and the flooring. I had to build the base cabinet and the wall cabinets at the cooktop area from scratch and I wasn't sure if I'd try to make 4 working drawers or 2 working drawers and 2 dummies. Last summer I decided and made 4 working drawers. Then I ripped out the old sheet flooring and installed Pergo XP in Koa and finished up a few odds and ends.

BUT... the ceiling work and all the electrical work and the countertop & sink were done a winter or two before. For some silly reason I thought if I updated some of the kitchen those almond cabinets would look updated too. :rolleyes:

[Jason Roehl]

No, it usually goes the other way, Julie--once you update one thing, everything else looks even more out of date.

[Steveo O'Banion]

Same thing happened to mahogany and darkly stained cherry in the 60's. In 30 years it will be in fashion again.

[Mike Schuch]

Ugh, I don't know what is worse golden stained oak or painted cabinets?

When I think of oak I think of all the pressed board furniture my friends had in college with a vinyl oak veneer. Yuck!

My current kitchen is oak. I refinished it in maple veneer. I used the original oak cabinets and veneered over the face frames as well as added some new maple ply panels to the end cabinets. No one has ever even thought that the cabinets were not maple. All of the door and drawer fronts were replaced with new solid maple raised panel doors and solid maple drawer fronts my father built for me. It turned out great. As in great from 6" away not just great from 6' away.

P.S. The lower a realtor puts your house on the market for the quicker it will sell and the less work they will have to do. Don't ever think a realtor is looking out for your best interests... they are only looking out for their own best interest.

[Jak Kelly]

Funny how through the 60's hardwood floors was what poor people had, if you had made it then you had carpeting. I think some of the ideas/popularity behind carpeting have disappeared probably because so many have realized the problems associated with it; hygiene, gasses, allergies........ We are now also dealing with a lot of people who have no idea what a well built home is, what is good cabinetry, quality work...... I have known numerous people who think the brick on their homes add structural value to the home.
Painting good quality oak cabinetry or scraping them out for Ikea is a sin to me, represents the sign of a true "idiot" and how little these people know!

A large majority of the generation coming up now can't even open a bucket of paint, much less identify quality work or materials that will last!

But, you still cannot overlook the fact of "what sells"!

[rudy de haas]

Julie:

I've watched this thread since it began and pondered the question off and on. So first a lot of the advice here about fixing the problem seems smart to me.

Second, I wonder if your agent was reacting as much to the tile as to the wood? A lot of older tile looks like a future maintenance problem.. expecially the smaller stuff used on counters. Continuous counter tops really are better (if made well and of good materials) and are certainly more popular. We went all granite here, but you may want to look at some of the pour-in-place stuff if you want things to look updated but not cost much.

If your counters are a standard size you may also want to consider replacing them, sinks, taps and all, with perfectly good products other people are taking out ( see craigslist or kijiji for starters).

Third, I think people see oak as old fashioned because oak, especially the cheaper stuff with highly visible grain, was used on so many government buildings - and who wants to be reminded of high school or traffic court while at home? Smooth, simple, colors are "in" - and, as several here have pointed out, you can refinish Oak to look that way for a few years without doing much damage to the actual wood.

[Brian Holcombe]

I'll be the devil's advocate on the update-to-move thing. The next owner is married to your choices, so unless the benefit outweighs the expense I would prefer, as a buyer, an outdated house over a house updated to move.

The owner prior to us put in granite in the kitchen. My wife loves it, I would have preferred the freedom do make my own choice (which would not have been granite)

[Jared Sankovich]

Julie,

I have to ask how long all that kitchen work took (as someone who is now in year 3 of a kitchen remodel not nearly as nice as yours)? Seems to me you must have started before your original post or you should offer classes to slowpokes like me on how to get things done :)

Ha, I was thinking the same thing (rounding year 2 myself)


I think I started in fall of 2013. I got most of it done over the winter. By spring 2014 I had everything done but the drawers in the cooktop cabinet and the flooring. I had to build the base cabinet and the wall cabinets at the cooktop area from scratch and I wasn't sure if I'd try to make 4 working drawers or 2 working drawers and 2 dummies. Last summer I decided and made 4 working drawers. Then I ripped out the old sheet flooring and installed Pergo XP in Koa and finished up a few odds and ends.

BUT... the ceiling work and all the electrical work and the countertop & sink were done a winter or two before. For some silly reason I thought if I updated some of the kitchen those almond cabinets would look updated too. :rolleyes:

It looks fantastic, I was really wondering how you could have done it all in a week.

[Julie Moriarty]

The idea of updating your home to increase the sales price is certainly fraught with problems. Too many individual tastes. Everyone wants to make a home their own personal home and yet there's no shortage of buyers who want turn-key homes. In the end, I think most just want a brand new custom built home but would be clueless as to how to direct the builder to build it. People who flip houses know that pretty much all they have to do is focus on the aesthetics - throw in some cheap but in-style cabinets, fixtures, etc - and they will flip it quickly and make a profit. The uneducated buyer is their perfect customer. I can't do that and still sleep at night. Yet there's a good chance whoever buys our house will be clueless as to what went into making it what it is and that it's not the same as the flashy flipper house that looks so good on the surface. It has good bones.

I'm finished making the doors and drawer faces for the bathroom cabinets. I was able to do it all with the wood I had in stock. My only expense thus far has been hinges and a gallon of finish. But once the cabinets are done, the countertops will look out of place. So I'll have to replace those. Then I'm done. All that will be left after that is getting my SO and son to clean up their messes so we can show the home. Now that's a real challenge!

[Jason Roehl]

I think you're dead-on with that assessment, Julie. On top of that is the Realtor, who works on commission. Seven percent of $250,000 is more than seven percent of $200,000, and all they have to do is tell their seller to "update" various parts of their house--they have no skin in the game if they tell someone to do the updates before a listing agreement is signed.

[Chris Friesen]

Personally I love the look of solid-wood trim, but I just can't justify the cost.

I've got crappy builder-grade oak cabinets from the 80s in my kitchen. The drawers are particleboard stapled together but with solid oak fronts, the cabinet boxes are plywood and particleboard. I can't justify just throwing them out since they still do the job, but I'll probably paint them in the next year or two. I've replaced the cutlery drawer with one I made from baltic birch, but I couldn't use Blum undermount slides because the face frames took up too much space, making the drawer too shallow. (I really like the undermount slides, the soft-close side-mount slides just aren't as smooth.)

As part of a minor remodel in the kitchen I added a run of white Ikea cabinets with Blum soft-close slides integrated into the drawer sides. I got the painted MDF doors/drawer fronts. (Stay away from the thermofoil, it's not repairable.) Sure, they don't look as nice as solid wood, but they look okay and they work really well. I customized the top door of the pantry cabinet to open upwards rather than to the side. I think it looks better, and it's certainly stronger that way.

[rudy de haas]

I agree - in that I too would prefer, if buying a house, not to have it cheaply updated by the seller. Our house here in sunny Lethridge (where it is currently snowing and at -17C) was like that: the previous owners had it for 26 years and did nothing. Great! However.. most buyers disagree with us

[Rod Sheridan]

OH Oh!

I'm presently building a red oak fireplace mantel for an electric fireplace, and it will be light oak to match the other furmiture..............

Funny thing is, it's exactly what Diann wanted as she provided the sketch of what it was to look like.

Should I tell her that her tastes are out of date? aybe this could ba a "Dear Abby" type question................Rod.

[Julie Moriarty]

I think you're dead-on with that assessment, Julie. On top of that is the Realtor, who works on commission. Seven percent of $250,000 is more than seven percent of $200,000, and all they have to do is tell their seller to "update" various parts of their house--they have no skin in the game if they tell someone to do the updates before a listing agreement is signed.

Oh yeah. Realtors pick a price point that maximizes their profit while increasing the chance of a quick sale. They take the cost of advertising, showing the house, etc and place it against potential profits at a given list price. Then they produce "proof" your interests are best served by listing at their price. Maybe it's just me, but people who come into your house to sell something need to be approached with caution.

[Julie Moriarty]

Those "functionally obsolete" awful oak doors will soon be ushered out and thrown out into the cruel world. :rolleyes: Too much drama? I agree...

But I'm actually inspired by how the new doors and drawer fronts are going. I admit I was a reluctant warrior but now I'm seeing light at the end of the tunnel.

For some reason I haven't had luck with dyeing African mahogany. It's been like staining pine. So I'm doing the natural approach and it's not bad. When I did the kitchen I used Honduras mahogany and it was too light to go natural. But the AM rails and stiles seem to go well with the sapele panels.


http://www.julimorcreations.com/Images/BatCab/bcab_014.jpg
One coat Enduro-Var (brushed) on the left. Bare wood on the right


And I've had those two characters who never shut up, one on each shoulder, telling me what to do. "Hey! You'll never enjoy this. Don't fret the details! Just slap it together!" While the other says, "Why listen to that mope? Has he ever done you right?" So there I am, making sure everything is perfect while the other character is telling me I'm an idiot. At least I'll sleep well.

FWIW, here is where the rails and stiles began:


http://www.julimorcreations.com/Images/BatCab/bcab_001.jpg
It's 8/4x13x96+ AM. I bought it about three years ago and didn't have a clue what I'd ever do with it. But it had this straight grain and I envisioned lots of things. None ever happened. Now that beautiful piece of wood has sunk to the lowly world of utility cabinetry. :( I should be shot.

[Richard Barker]

Those "functionally obsolete" awful oak doors will soon be ushered out and thrown out into the cruel world. :rolleyes: Too much drama? I agree...

But I'm actually inspired by how the new doors and drawer fronts are going. I admit I was a reluctant warrior but now I'm seeing light at the end of the tunnel.

For some reason I haven't had luck with dyeing African mahogany. It's been like staining pine. So I'm doing the natural approach and it's not bad. When I did the kitchen I used Honduras mahogany and it was too light to go natural. But the AM rails and stiles seem to go well with the sapele panels.


http://www.julimorcreations.com/Images/BatCab/bcab_014.jpg
One coat Enduro-Var (brushed) on the left. Bare wood on the right


And I've had those two characters who never shut up, one on each shoulder, telling me what to do. "Hey! You'll never enjoy this. Don't fret the details! Just slap it together!" While the other says, "Why listen to that mope? Has he ever done you right?" So there I am, making sure everything is perfect while the other character is telling me I'm an idiot. At least I'll sleep well.

FWIW, here is where the rails and stiles began:


http://www.julimorcreations.com/Images/BatCab/bcab_001.jpg
It's 8/4x13x96+ AM. I bought it about three years ago and didn't have a clue what I'd ever do with it. But it had this straight grain and I envisioned lots of things. None ever happened. Now that beautiful piece of wood has sunk to the lowly world of utility cabinetry. :( I should be shot.

perhaps you should try some potassium chromate to age the AM before the Enduro-Var and watch the grain pop.

[Deb Clarkson]

The thing to remember with realtors is they don't care if you have to spend $50,000 to increase the selling price by $20,000. You may have lost $30,000 but they got the commission on the extra $20,000. Very few upgrades will increase the selling price by as much as, let alone more than, the cost of the upgrade. Especially if you don't have the skills, tools, or time to DIY.

[Art Mann]

Very astute observation.