Using oilstones

[Kees Heiden]

For a while now I use mostly oilstones. It's getting cold now even here in Holland, so I'm glad I don't have to freeze of my fingers. I also do a lot of work with curved tools, which was my reason to start on the oilstone route. No grooves or gouges in my waterstones this time.

I'd like to compare notes, so to speak. I have a washita and an arkansas stone. I think the latter is a translucent, at least some light comes through when I hold a light behind it. It doesn't seem to be so much finer then my washita though. Both stones raise a sizeable wire edge which takes quite some back and forth and the use of a strop to get rid of.

I use babyoil now. The cheap stuff without perfume. I don't like the scent of most oils, but this one is probably just a pure light mineral oil. I need only a little bit because these natural stones are not permeable, unlike an India which soaks up cups of oil.

I don't think that the washita is very fast. After rehoning a few times it takes a long time to raise a wire edge. I could go back to the grinder early, but I now also bought an Ezelap 400 plate. Maybe that helps as an initial step before the Washita. Sometimes I wonder if the Arkansas isn't just as quick. So I now really wonder if I didn't just get an hard Arkansas with a coarse cut. After each sharpening session I clean of the stones with a paper kitchen towel.

For flattening ancient pitted backs, I start with 80 grit Sic grit on a floor tile. This is really quick. Then the diamond stone to remove these huge scrathes, and finally the oilstones. This goes quick. Especially the 80 grit is a huge time saver. I should have tried this ages before.

The leather strop is charged with Flexcut Gold paste. For no specific reason other then that I have it. I use the Flexcut slipstrop which is a mold with several profiles, very usefull for gouges and other hollow tool shapes.

The weird thing is, I started using the oilstones after I moved into the new shop with a real sink and running water. I always wanted this for my waterstones. But it is the use of gouges and moulding planes which got got me going and they are really a lot nicer to sharpen on these stones. My oilstones are quite narrow but it is no problem to sharpen plane blades. I skew the blade quite a lot on the stone and move around in little cirkels.

Now I am curious to the experience of others and maybe some smart tips.

[David Weaver]

Are you lapping the translucent stone? If not, it should stop releasing particles entirely in fairly short order. If you lap it on a regular basis, I'd suspect it won't cut much finer than the washita stone.

I don't lap stones after initial lapping any longer. I "lift" the handle on every arkansas stone I use, and work only the edge of the iron. Broken in stones require some pressure to raise a wire edge or remove any sort of wear, but I think that's a good thing (it is to me), especially when they make good sharpness broken in like that.

If you never lap your trans stone, and it's still not fine, it might be an arkeram or some other bonded stone that looks like an arkansas stone but is instead a bonded novaculite stone.

I go back and forth between various natural stones, but sometimes use a diamond hone to precede japanese finishers (because some of the natural japanese stones are pretty fast cutting for their fineness - but those stones are also expensive).

[Kees Heiden]

No I don't lap. I didn't even lap them before. I just looked at them and declared them flat enough. I guess to flatten a planeblade I would have to use something else.

The Arkansas really doesn't look like it is bonded. It has that soft translucent look over it. Really hard to photograph though, so I don't think a picture would help.

Here is a picture of my sharpening setup.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_dX98Paaajk/VIS_woJV4xI/AAAAAAAABrw/LAULk8tY1vY/s1600/foto%2BH.JPG

[David Weaver]

Hard to tell from the picture, but you may just have a fine cutting washita. The fine cutting washitas are knocking right on the doorstep of a hard arkansas.

something like a lilywhite has a very open pore structure, and still can cut fairly finely if it's allowed to break in.

Trans stones cover the territory of weak milky clearish to bright white with a little translucence to bone colored yellow with a little translucence. I don't think that's an arkeram or other bonded stone becasue most of those are 2x6 stones. If you can get the mass of that stone accurately and find that it's specific gravity is 2.6 or so, then I'm not sure why it wouldn't cut really finely.

[Kees Heiden]

Oops that picture tuned out bit large! Here is a picture of the stone with a light shining through. Maybe I am expecting too much from a stone like that? I am used to a Naniwa SS 8000. That one doesn't raise a wireeddge I can feel. I will calculate the specific gravity later. It's now too cold outside and almost bedtime.


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[Kees Heiden]

What kind of unit do you use for specific gravity? I calculate about 2.8 gram/cubic centimeter. (I did go outside into the cold!)

[David Weaver]

well, the unit doesn't matter! 2.8 is a very high value, and it does pass some light. It should cut finely. The grains showing in it are curious, but at that density it should be a very fine stone.

Strop the wire edge that you get off using some bare leather. The naniwa stone and the hard arkansas cut differently, but the sharpness should be about the same. Artificial fine stones usually cut grooves too deep and are too harsh to form much of an organized wire edge at high grit.

[Steve Voigt]

Hey Kees,

Welcome to the dark and oily side! :p

If you intend the Washita to be a coarse stone, you could try abrading it with some loose SC or diamonds. If that doesn't get it cutting more rapidly, maybe it's a fine stone, as David suggested.

If that doesn't work, you might try a fine India stone instead. They are really cheap (here at least, not sure about Holland) and cut like a million bucks!

I think if your trans stone is raising a really persistent wire edge, then it is not a fine finishing stone. If I first raise a fat wire edge on the India stone, when I go to the hard black, the wire either disintegrates, or comes off in a single long strand. Stropping is just to remove the tiny bits of detritus that remain. My experience is limited to my hard black Arkansas finisher, but I assumed that's how most hard black or trans stones should work.

[Kees Heiden]

This sure is a problem for newbies wanting to use oilstones. You just don't know what you get. My Arkansas has all the looks of a fine stone, but it creates a sizable, rather persistant burr. So in reality it can't be that fine. I do get my tools plenty sharp, using the Flexcut paste on a strop.

So, if I want a real fine stone, I either have to buy a new one from America, paying their high prices and the shipping. Or I try my luck on ebay (probably best to look in England), and take my chances.

At least with the waterstones you know what you buy.

[Warren Mickley]

Oil stones are different from water stones. With an oil stone you could get a burr 1/4 inch long if you but had the patience to keep sharpening. If you are getting a big burr, you are sharpening more than necessary. Water stones cannot form such a nice burr because there is loose grit all around that takes its toll on the burr. You have to keep this in mind when you compare the two.

I think the Arkansas stones are a bargain when you consider that you are making a lifetime purchase and that they have to be mined and graded, not just baked in an oven. I have used oil stones for finishing since 1962. I sharpen plane irons, chisels , carving tools, turning tools, axes, scissors, knives, et cetera. I have used my stones so long that my cost is about $0.00075 per tool sharpened.

In contrast water stone users seem to be always upgrading. Naniwa, Bester, Choseras, things I never heard of before the last few years. One guy on this forum used King stones (300, 800, 1200, 8000), then Shapton pros (1000, 5000, 8000, 12000), then Sigma (6000, 13000), then Spyderco (medium and ultra fine). All in the last six years. Try pricing those stones.

[David Weaver]

This sure is a problem for newbies wanting to use oilstones. You just don't know what you get. My Arkansas has all the looks of a fine stone, but it creates a sizable, rather persistant burr. So in reality it can't be that fine. I do get my tools plenty sharp, using the Flexcut paste on a strop.

So, if I want a real fine stone, I either have to buy a new one from America, paying their high prices and the shipping. Or I try my luck on ebay (probably best to look in England), and take my chances.

At least with the waterstones you know what you buy.

Kees, I've used about 2 dozen fine oilstones, and it's been my experience that all of the fine stones create a fine edge. I'm not sure if the burr you're getting is coming from something else, or if it's just as warren says, too much honing.

One of the reasons the arkansas stones were as popular as they were is because of their consistency (which makes them marketable). I think there's probably something small in terms of detail going on here that we don't know about. when you're polishing the back of a hard chisel with that stone, what does it look like. Does it bring up some polish, or does it look dull and scratchy? If it's not leaving a bright polish, then I think your stone might be an odd ball, a bonded stone or something that may have been marketed like the arkeram. If it brings up a polish, flip your iron back and forth a couple of times and use light pressure (honing on alternating sides) to thin the burr and then strop on bare leather. It should bring up an edge that is similar to a fine waterstone.

(I've used most of the stones that warren mentioned, but I have sort of a thing for sharpening stones - as a novelty).

well...I do have one final comment - if you're using something that is fairly soft, the fact that oilstones don't have small particles can show up. For example, if you use a 1 micron synthetic stone on an old french iron or a pocket knife that's not that hard, you'll still get a bright polish. If the steel is a bit soft and you use a translucent arkansas stone, you'll find that the stone still cuts the softer steel quite quickly. The thing that makes the whole system work as well as it does to cut finely (the system being novaculite stones) is that the abrasive and the hardened steel are fairly close together in hardness. If you tip the balance too much, they either refuse to cut for the most part (for example on a very hard japanese chisel) or the cut coarsely because the balance of things moves in favor of the abrasive (for example on a french knife or a cheap pocket knife).

I bring up the french, because I've noticed a fair bit of their carbon steel stuff, like freres irons, and carbon steel knives, are a little softer than others. The english also had some soft carbon steel stuff (razors, etc) compared to germany and the US, and I think that's probably owed to the fact that their traditional stones were slow cutting.

[Kees Heiden]

That's valuable information about the burr. I almost bought another Arkansas but I try a bit with stopping sharpening sooner.

I am a real newbie when it comes to oilstones. No wonder I keep comparing them to waterstones and getting confused.

[David Weaver]

That's valuable information about the burr. I almost bought another Arkansas but I try a bit with stopping sharpening sooner.

I am a real newbie when it comes to oilstones. No wonder I keep comparing them to waterstones and getting confused.

Eventually, you will get a sense for how they like to sharpen, and you'll probably regard "sharpening like waterstones with waterstones" and "sharpening like oilstones with oilstones" to be two very different methods. Every type of stone I've tried works well if you're willing to gain familiarity with it. The only one I really don't like much for tools is coticule and hone slates (most of the good hone slates are super expensive now, anyway, or not very fine), but you can do fine with those.

[Steve Voigt]

This sure is a problem for newbies wanting to use oilstones. You just don't know what you get. My Arkansas has all the looks of a fine stone, but it creates a sizable, rather persistant burr. So in reality it can't be that fine. I do get my tools plenty sharp, using the Flexcut paste on a strop.

So, if I want a real fine stone, I either have to buy a new one from America, paying their high prices and the shipping. Or I try my luck on ebay (probably best to look in England), and take my chances.

At least with the waterstones you know what you buy.

It's true that finishing stones are expensive, no matter the type. :(
But I think the comparison is a little unfair. You "know what you buy" with synthetic waterstones because they are manufactured to uniform standards in some giant factory. Arkansas stones are natural, and so are much more variable. I think that makes it more important to buy from a source you can trust. If you are buying mystery stones of ebay, you might get really lucky, or more likely you end up wasting a lot of money.

Right now, knife center has Dan's hard black 2 x 8 stones for $54. I don't know jack about waterstones, but isn't that cheaper, or at least comparable, even after shipping? The other thing is that, as Warren said, the arkansas stone will last several lifetimes. If you are middle-aged and plan on woodworking for another 30-40 years, how many times would you have to replace the fine waterstone, just from wear? I think Warren is right; in the long run, oil stones are cheaper.

[Kees Heiden]

The last things i have been sharpening are moulding plane irons and these aren't very hard in my case. They are quite simple things. So that might have influenced my experience with the large burrs.

I'm going to do a test tonight with some chisels. I can even look with the microscope to see if I get a finer scratch pattern from the Arkansas compared to the Washita. That would at least settle my ignorance about this stone.

[David Weaver]

Scratch patterns will look similar between the two. Stropping on bare leather and paring some will tell you more.

[David Weaver]

Let me illustrate some, apologies that some of these pictures are poor. I posted these a long while ago on a razor forum when I was trying to find the differences between washita, hard ark, chinese agate...

Here is the edge off of a bone colored ark...this is my favorite old stone, though it's just a tad coarser than something like a new dans trans. I call it "magic wonderstone", but I think anyone who tries it thinks "I wonder what's so magic about it, because I don't get it :):

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Left to right:
*a soft smiths type stone (very cheap stone, very coarse, sometimes labeled washita but not similar.
* razor washita (like a lilywhite type but finer)
* hard ark
* green chinese agate (finer than hard ark, but probably due to softer abrasive particles)

The pictures are shown with a cheap microscope that has LEDs right at the lens. How they are interpreted by the software seems to be dependent on the reflecting light, so the lighting level varies in the pictures like it wouldn't do with a better scope. Also, the scope reflected light shows scratches where other pages (tim zowada's for example), would show a polished surface. Past the soft, all of the surfaces look like some level of polish with the last two stones leaving what looks like a bright polish, so the scratches shouldn't be interpreted as coarse scratches, they are exaggerated by the light.


The edge from the washita (keeping in mind this washita has been allowed to settle in - someone else had been using it for razors before I got it):
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the edge from the hard...

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And then after some traffic on the chinese stone:

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[David Weaver]

(these edges are all prior to stropping...if I used graded chromium oxide powder, I could remove the scratches and leave a dull dark looking surface, but the shave isn't any better because the actual edge isn't any thinner, and the little bits and pieces at the edge are removed by the linen).

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Surfaces of the stones left to right, soft, washita, hard ark, chinese agate.

The agate surface isn't instructive, it's still got scratch marks from lapping in it. It's an odd stone that I don't like very much, as it has a lot of potential to polish something, but it's extremely slow and it sometimes releases big particles that bruise edges. It feels like honing on hard oiled rubber, it just doesn't do much other than chase a burr. You can see under the lines, though, that it has some bubbles in the matrix...it's just a bizarre stone that's capable of a finer edge than the arks, but at the cost of major fiddling.

[David Weaver]

The strange thing shaving with these stones is that the washita is borderline for shaving, but if after preparing the edge you shave once with it and then take a few very light strokes with the razor on the stone and hit the linen again, the edge is as keen and smooth as any other natural stone, which suggests it's a fairly close stone to the hard arks.

If your washita is close to a hard ark, then that's just what it is. Even from the coarse washitas, if they're allowed to settle in, you can get a better edge off of them than any medium synthetic stone.

[Kees Heiden]

Ok, so the microscope is out. Maybe mine can get a little better images though. I'll try it anyway. Those oilstones are really difficult to wrap my head around! I guess only accumulating vast quantities of stones will give me better insight.


In the video from the Raggenbass planemakers in Switserland you can see the "young" Raggenbass wetting a plane iron from 10:57 onwards. He switches from front to back all the time. Is that how you adress the burr issue?

http://www.rts.ch/archives/tv/culture/suisse-au-fil-du-temps/3464421-les-outils-de-bois.html

[David Weaver]

Ok, so the microscope is out. Maybe mine can get a little better images though. I'll try it anyway. Those oilstones are really difficult to wrap my head around! I guess only accumulating vast quantities of stones will give me better insight.


In the video from the Raggenbass planemakers in Switserland you can see the "young" Raggenbass wetting a plane iron from 10:57 onwards. He switches from front to back all the time. Is that how you adress the burr issue?

http://www.rts.ch/archives/tv/culture/suisse-au-fil-du-temps/3464421-les-outils-de-bois.html

Yes. I don't know what right term is for it, but I call that thinning the burr. Switching from front to back to make the burr less strong - resulting in an edge that strops to smoothness on bare leather very easily.

If you have some wear to remove and need to create a significant wire edge to show that you've done a lot of work, I would do the entire amount of bevel work first, then work the back heavily and then do light alternating back and forth (I didn't watch before the time you mentioned to see if he did any heavy work on the stone, but I'd suspect not).

[Kees Heiden]

No he goes from a big grinder to this stone. He doesn't even strop. When I look at that I feel that I am thinking way too much about this sharpening thing...

[David Weaver]

Force yourself to use only that washita for a while, and you'll be surprised how good you get using it. Seriously, it's not a bad way to go and it certainly doesn't add any time to woodworking.

[Kees Heiden]

Good idea.

At the other hand, there is a real vintage Norton translucent winking at me.

[Kees Heiden]

Another quickl question. When searching for Arkansas stones overhere I see lots of places selling a black stone with a label "Original Arkansas". What brand would that be?

Example:
http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/product/705258/Arkansas-Bench-Stone-Black.htm

[David Weaver]

That's just branding "original arkansas"....and an errant statement about scarcity of black stones. There is no shortage of black arkansas stones that cut finely. Translucent stones from vendor to vendor vary a little bit (you can tell a dan's trans vs. a norton, they come from different locations and dan's trans is more like norton vintage than norton is). If there's any shortage, it's that the trans stones are a little harder to find vendor to vendor, at least cheaply.

If you can get a vintage norton translucent bought at a reasonable price, you'll never lose money on it and it will be definitive about what you can expect from the stones.

For what it's worth, that branding "original arkansas" might be there to differentiate the stone vs. bonded stones, etc, or slates that people might mistake visually for an arkansas stone....who knows. Like mentioned earlier, if a stone has specific gravity in the 2.6-2.7 range, which is where most trans and black stones are, it signifies a lack of pores and they will all cut similarly once the surface treatment they were given (sawing/lapping) wears away.

[Kees Heiden]

Thanks for the insight David.

[Kees Heiden]

So I finally got around to set up the microscope and make a few pictures. Not that it tells me much, but anyway, here they are. Magnification 470x.

First the oilstones on a Berg chisel. This has much better steel then the moulding plane irons I was working of late. It doesn't raise such large burrs and they are easier to get rid of. First I hone with the washita, rising a good burr.

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Then onto the arkansas at a higher angle which reduced the burr a bit. I didn't do more to remove it before I made this picture. I would say that the Arkansas is indeed a little finer then the washita. But I wonder if that is all I can get from an oilstone? Nothing finer available?

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To make the comparison complete I got another Berg chisel and did the same with a 1000 and a 8000 grit waterstone. It was hard to take a picture because the surface is so reflective. My microscope has a polaroid filter and I could turn the filter untill I got this pitcure just inbetween too dark and way too light.

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So, the different look is partly because of the difference in lighting, but also because of the difference in how the grit works. I would say that this 8000 grit stone is finer then the arkansas.

Drawing conclusions from microscope pictures is very hard. Often you just don't know what you are looking at. I tested both chisels after working the burr, on a piece of endgrain fir. They both paired cleanly, but the waterstone sharpened one feels sharper. Even stropping on the flexcut paste doesn't imrpove that. I wouldn't draw conclusions from that either because I am still at the beginning of the oilstone path.

I do think that I can conclude that my Arkansas makes the edge finer then the Washita. I don't know if this is the best Arkansas available on earth, but it'll do for a while. Just for giggles, here are pictures from the two oilstones.

Washita:

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Arkansas:
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[ken hatch]

Kees,

Of course color isn't a good indicator of oil stone hardness or fineness but your Arkansas looks just like my Soft Arkansas from Dan's.

ken

[Curt Putnam]

Kees, knowing that you are good at research, I'll just throw this out for consideration (do your due diligence.) I have read, or think I have read that the difference between the grades of stones is not grit, but density. To me (I'm stretching here), that means that the difference for sharpening comes down to speed of particle release, which equals honing speed. Hence the importance of stropping in oil stone use.

I think I've missed something and hopefully one of the experts will chime and correct my thoughts. Failing that, perhaps you could do the research and post the results here.

[Kees Heiden]

Kees,

Of course color isn't a good indicator of oil stone hardness or fineness but your Arkansas looks just like my Soft Arkansas from Dan's.

ken

Don't forget, this is 470x magnified. Things look a lot different. Without magnification you wouldn't say the stone has such a specled surface.

[Kees Heiden]

Kees, knowing that you are good at research, I'll just throw this out for consideration (do your due diligence.) I have read, or think I have read that the difference between the grades of stones is not grit, but density. To me (I'm stretching here), that means that the difference for sharpening comes down to speed of particle release, which equals honing speed. Hence the importance of stropping in oil stone use.

I think I've missed something and hopefully one of the experts will chime and correct my thoughts. Failing that, perhaps you could do the research and post the results here.


I have been rumaging around a bit in this area, but I think this is one of the hardest subjects in our field of interest to do usefull research.

[Kristoffer Frederiksen]

Another quickl question. When searching for Arkansas stones overhere I see lots of places selling a black stone with a label "Original Arkansas". What brand would that be?

Example:
http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/product/705258/Arkansas-Bench-Stone-Black.htm

I think that it is Müller Schleifmittel http://www.mueller-schleifmittel.de/en/53642998600c7b001/53642998600c8b209/53642998600ce2d23/index.html

[Kees Heiden]

Well, I don't think Mueller is digging up Arkansas stones in the USA :D

You see stones with this label everywhere. Also from a couple of Dutch suppliers. No idea where they buy them, but I am loosing interest in buying a new one. My own Arkansas is not bad at all.

[Kristoffer Frederiksen]

I'm with you on that, but I thought that they might be importing raw material and refining it themselves.

I would recommend that you buy used on UK eBay. I have a 1 3/4x8 Lily-white, 2x8 no. 1 and 2x6 Smith's black. Altogether it was less than a new 2x8 translucent.

However if you want to buy new Classic Handtools in the uk and Rasoir Sabre in France both sells Dan's whetstones.

[Kees Heiden]

Just around the corner, the "Beeldhouwinkel" in Scheveningen also sells Dan's. So that would be my first choice to have a look.

I found out about this shop only recently. Not cheap, but they have excelent stuff.

http://www.beeldhouwwinkel.nl/houtbeeldhouwen/slijpen/arkansas/arkansas-wetsteen-tweezijdig.html

[ken hatch]

Don't forget, this is 470x magnified. Things look a lot different. Without magnification you wouldn't say the stone has such a specled surface.

Oops. didn't read post closely enough.

ken

[Kees Heiden]

So, I couldn't restrain myself any longer, and I bought the vintage Norton translucent. I know that it is a real one because it is labeled on the side with Norton and HB8. It is alsmost an inch thick at 23 mm, has a density of 2.6 and feels very smooth on one side. It came in a nice wooden box (Mahogany?). Not really cheap at 80 euros, but similar new ones from Dan's are also like that.

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I tried a chisel quickly last night and it works very well. It raises a small wire edge very quickly (I work a narrow sliver of steel from a hollow grind), which is easy to remove with some back and forth from the bevel to the face on the stone. Even without stropping I can shave some hairs from my arm.

It does feel a little smoother then my previous one, but maybe that is just my imagination. I recalculated the density of the previous one and it is actually also 2.6. My new one is a bit less translucent then my previous one.

Now I just have to learn living with them. And I must make some boxes for my other stones.

[Kristoffer Frederiksen]

For 80 € I think you made a good find. From what I have seen labeled translucents fetch 100+ £ prices on UK eBay.

I am starting to become friends with my black ark, I have flattened most of it on 120 grit SC powder (I have a 2 small dips left in the corners). Right now it is very fast but also rather coarse, but I expect that it will soon settle in.

[John Dougherty]

Unlike waterstones that cut better with a slurry developed, oil stones, well mine anyway, seem to work better with a clean surface. After several years of doing things the way my dad did, I tried washing the stone after rubbing the surface with detergent, just regular dish detergent, then with warm water. The detergent is a bipolar substance and bonds to both oil and water. Then I scrub it with a non-abrasive pad. That removes oil and a good deal of the metal swarf. This works with hard stones that don't release many particles. I expect mileage may vary with other types of stone. Fort what it is worth, I use this on both my washita stones.

[Kees Heiden]

You do that every day? Your a better man then I am! But I do wipe the stones clean every time.