Pattern shaping...

[Justin Ludwig]

I haven't used my shaper for pattern cutting before. I've always been able to use a router in the past. My next job I have some shaped posts to make out of QSWO. See pics.

This post is 5x 35-1/4 x5 and will be patterned on 2 sides. I have 4 of them to build.
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This post is 5x 35 1/4 x2 1/4 and patterned on just one side. Building 6 of these.
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My 1-1/4" spindle has 5" under nut capacity, give that and the shapes, my questions are: Can I use a pattern cutter that is less that 5" with a rub bearing and get a good final product? A 3" or 4" tall pattern cutter. Make one pass with the template then use the piece itself for the second pass? With the depth of the pattern in 1-1/8" at the deepest, do you suggest a spiral head cutter or other. I may have to make a couple passes or remove some material with the band saw first.

[Peter Quinn]

You don't need a 5" head to make the cuts, even a 2" head would get it done in a few passes, might have some witness lines to scrape out or sand at the meeting lines. I'd make a master pattern, make your sleds form that, remember to give yourself 3-5" of lead in for safety (don't ever try dropping a pattern on a spinning shaper cutter freehand, you need pattern lead in, otherwise it can quickly turn into a climb cut and that wont go well...DAMHIK). You need a good work hold down strategy, destaco's on top of a tall fence on your sled, for the ones that look like they have blind backs screws can be effective taking care they don't end up in the part you are removing. Absolutely take every thing you can out with the BS. Tricky part is flipping the work and getting everything lined up. I like to set it up so I'm always running a bearing off a pattern, you can do the second pass running the bearing on the work and using a starting pin or similar, perhaps you can start on the flat where you wont be taking anything off? Or leave the legs a little long, and create a flat that will be cut off later of necessary? Just stage the passes mentally to avoid dropping the work onto a spinning cutter and taking a lot of material off simultaneously, this doesn't always go well. Its really worse thinking about it than doing it. The first time I did pattern shaping on the shaper was the very last time I used a router unless absolutely necessary. The cuts are so much cleaner and smoother, hard to compare. You might be able to drop the regular fence back far enough to use it as a chip collector, on some curves you really need a simple chip hood to get around the curve, Take a look at the Aigner bow master as a starting point for design....or you can just go cowboy style and let the chips fly where they will....but I hate having that big head spinning with no protection.

I like the spiral heads, Byrds is great, others are similar, Amana's is a bit smaller diameter for tighter curves, a simple 3Z braised cutter does a decent job too. I use a 50MM 4Z straight knife insert rabbit head for lots of pattern stuff and it does a fine job. I've done 5" curved beams using a 50MM head just by raising up the cutter on the spindle with spacers. First pass.....bearing below running off the pattern, .030" shim to separate the bearing and cutter head, takes out around 2". Second pass....never change bearing height, just add spacers, or put those already on the spindle between cutter and bearing, raise it 1-2 inches...make your pass.....last pass, cutter is almost all the way up on the spindle....that will surely get your attention, only do that on a very serious shaper and make sure you BS as close to the line as you are comfortable doing. Its a compromise either way. Flip the work, keep the cutter low, you have to make more sleds, or run off a starting pin. Keep raising the cutter......big cutter way up in the air, but you are running off a good sled in the same orientation for each pass so witness lines are minimized.


The other realistic option for legs is to cut close to the line, and clean up the saw marks with an OSS and scrapers/compass planes. Probably worth the set up in your case given the numbers involved, for 1-2 I'd probably just saw and sand.

[jack forsberg]

i would have to agree with the OSS. Just add a ring fence to pattern off so that the bobbin can follow just like a shaper or router table. I'm not a fan of placing a large cutter high on the spindle:eek::eek:. I may try something like that with the Robinson that's got 9" under the nut but it has a spindle top support. That a large face to shape in one pass and you want to band saw very close to the line.

[Justin Ludwig]

Thanks Peter and Jack. I have every intention of making a sled and use plenty of hold downs. I may go with a 2" spiral to save on cost and just "walk" it up for a last pass then clean things up.

I don' have a pin location bored in my shaper's table so I'll give my pattern plenty of lead in/out.

I know now this is a relative question for location, but what would you guys charge for something like this? The QSWO is gonna be about $30 for per 5x5 post, 6.25 bdft, no prep time or waste included. I'm in the bottom of the barrel of America when it comes to cabinet prices. But with that said, nobody does quality custom work around here (that I've seen).

[jack forsberg]

Thanks Peter and Jack. I have every intention of making a sled and use plenty of hold downs. I may go with a 2" spiral to save on cost and just "walk" it up for a last pass then clean things up.

I don' have a pin location bored in my shaper's table so I'll give my pattern plenty of lead in/out.

I know now this is a relative question for location, but what would you guys charge for something like this? The QSWO is gonna be about $30 for per 5x5 post, 6.25 bdft, no prep time or waste included. I'm in the bottom of the barrel of America when it comes to cabinet prices. But with that said, nobody does quality custom work around here (that I've seen).

a days shop time is what i would charge out for something like that. finish would be in addition to that. what are your plans for QSWO grain for sides. If that does not matter than flat sawn will work will it not?

[Justin Ludwig]

I have a Freeborn miter lock for my shaper. The material I have to order is 13/16" S2S. My intention is to prep that material to 3/4", glue up, then miter lock. I was going to do a test piece because I'm not sure how the pattern is going to come out at the deepest part of the lock (1-1/8" deep into the corner of the 5x5).

Cabinets throughout her whole house is QSWO. Here's the idea for her master vanities. The top is generic as she hasn't decided.

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[jack forsberg]

Ya the pattern could cut in to the fingers of the lock. this is how i have seen it done.

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[Justin Ludwig]

That looks like 5/4 or 6/4. I could probably order some...

If the pattern is cut evenly, would it not stay on the center seam of the miter lock, thereby being "invisible"? Sounds good in theory. The pattern would cut deep into the joints of your picture as well.

Here is my miter cutter: http://www.thehardwarehut.com/images/moreimages/tongueandgrooveshapercutters/freeborntoolcompany/fre-28-020-main.jpg

I think I would have to insure the 1-1/8" mark landed on a miter seam and not the lock joint.

Edit: the taper of the leg would get back into the miter lock joint and expose end grain.

[jack forsberg]

ya i don't think you want finger in the joint that the pattern will cut into. i would just use a plane miter joints like i show

[Justin Ludwig]

Thanks. That looks easy enough to set up.

[Mel Fulks]

Well,I'm confused. Thought you were cutting them from solid and then shaping to pattern. Now you are going to try mitreing them?

[jack forsberg]

Well,I'm confused. Thought you were cutting them from solid and then shaping to pattern. Now you are going to try mitreing them?

mill after Mel miter is for the ray fleck on all sides

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks, Tom . Seems like veneer would be better though.

[jack forsberg]

Thanks, Tom . Seems like veneer would be better though.
would be an easy pattern in veneer

[Justin Ludwig]

Seems like veneer would be better though.

You'll have to explain this to me. I learn as I go and run into things I haven't done before. I'm in a area where there is no one to teach me first hand as well. Google, SMC, YouTube, and trial and error are my teachers.

[Mel Fulks]

"What we hav heah is failyuh to comunikate " just meant that just cutting them out by pattern (out of solid stock) and then covering with veneer might work better. But maybe it wouldn't . The only SURE thing is that with veneer
you would not have the area of almost end grain revealed and showing a little darker in the finished piece but the color of the finish might be dark enough that the short grain would not be Noticed regardless . It can be
done either way.

[Peter Quinn]

I'm thinking Mel is correct, I assumed you had solid stock because I've been working on a lit of large WO brackets lately, but the stuff is always wet and moves all over the place. I'd make the legs out of poplar, 8/4 laminations, then veneer with cross banded veneer, could be ironed on or clamped one face at a time as required. In my neck that is a $4500-$6000 vanity based on time and materials. The lock miter on the tapered curves is problematic aesthetically. You maybe could glue shoulders on at the top to handle the deepest part of the curves, easier to match and blend if the faces are rift rather than heavy quarter sawn with ray fleck. But a veneer approach is probably more sound at that thickness.

[Justin Ludwig]

I hadn't intended in trying to procure 5x5 or 8/4 QSWO. I assume it would be too troublesome and possible move or crack/split. Plus, the size of the tree needed to cut a 5" section of QS would be ginormous,would it not? Anywho...

The client is all about the ray fleck (or tiger striped oak as she calls it :D).

Does this describe what you, Mel and Jack are talking about? Excuse my ignorance

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[Justin Ludwig]

It was a learning experience. Took me 4 days to make 6 half posts and 4 corner posts. Glue drying time was the biggest factor in my unheated shop. I used about 50-60lbs of propane in my 150k BTU heater.

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Door and drawer faces aren't installed (obviously). Wood is QSWO. I had to install these unfinished so the Granite company could do their business (4-6 week lead time).