Last coat of Waterlox puddled up: what do I do now?

[James Dudley]

301530

So I don't know why the system turned that on its side, but oh well.

First of all: HEY! Been creeping this forum for a little while, getting tips and knowledge. Thank you all.

So I've run into a small (I hope) problem that (I hope) you guys can (I hope!) help me fix.

Here's the scenario.

3-inch slab of Sapele. Beeeeyoootiful wood.

Put in some walnut keys to secure some natural cracks in the wood. Sanded the tops of both pieces to 220.

Decided to use Waterlox Original (lot low VOC).

Followed the directions from Waterlox on the first two coats: use a natural brush, apply liberally. Things went fairly well. First coat totally soaked in, surface was darker but totally dull still.

2nd coat, brush, liberal application (following guidelines as to how much). mostly soaked in, a few semi-shiny spots as it was building a bit. Noticed a few bubbles in the 2nd coat, but nothing bad.

Because of the bubbles, decided on the third coat to do a rub application--lint-free cloth inside a pantyhose, dipped in Waterlox (thinned with 10% mineral spirits). Went on fine. Much thinner coat here, just enough to wet the wood a bit. Rubbed it in. Went really well, getting a smoother finish now. I'm NOT going for a glass-like glossy finish. But I do want it sealed (this will be a kitchen island top).

Figured one more thin coat would probably do it. Applied just like the third, but I noticed that in places...as I applied it...the waterlox kinda puddled up immediately. As you'd see if you put water on clean glass.

I thought "well crap", but was already in it. Plus, I assumed (wrongly as it turns out) that the Waterlox would even out/run to low spots and once it set, the "puddles" would be gone.

In some places, yes. In most, no.

So I'm left with a slightly bumpy surface. You really can only see it in just the right light, but I want this thing to come out right. So I've stopped work (this was 4 days ago) and I'm figuring out what to do now.

Should I dry sand it once it cures?

Should I wet sand it w/Mineral Spirits now? Or wait?

I do NOT want to build multiple more coats to even it out, as it'll be way too thick at that point.

I'd prefer not to sand it all off and start over. There's gotta be a way to get these "puddles" gone, even if it's removing SOME of the previous coats.

Do I just strip w/mineral spirits or something? What do I do here?

My goal, again, is a semi-gloss at most finish. I want it to feel like wood still, but be protected since it'll be a kitchen work space.

Help?:confused:

[Kent A Bathurst]

How long did you wait between coats 2 and 3?

How long between 3 and 4?

Anything else happen then, like scuff-sanding?

[Prashun Patel]

I believe what you're seeing is minor incompatibility with Waterlox and Mineral Spirits. I've had this happen to me.
Wipe off the bubbly coat with ms if if hasn't yet dried. Buff it all off, then wait for the surface to dry. Don't worry about how it looks yet. You can lightly sand off any nibs or bubbles with 400g if you need to, but do it gently and wipe off any dust/mineral spirits thoroughly and again give it time for any residual ms to evaporate.

Try, then to wipe on the Original Sealer Finish again. You can (and should if you wipe) wipe it without thinning it with anything.

BTW, post some more pics. That color is very nice.

[James Dudley]

Kent: 2-3 days between coats 3 and 4. No scuffing in between. Nothing in between, just wiped on 3...waited, looked good...then wiped on 4.

Prashun: I don't think I thinned the last coat that I rubbed on. Honestly, I can't remember 100%. Coat 3 definitely had a touch of thinner in it.

Isn't Waterlox based on mineral spirits? Seems like it wouldn't have a compatibility issue, though I really am not an expert in such things.

What you see is dry. Coat 4 went on on Monday afternoon and it's Thursday now. So that's where I sit.

So are you saying that I should wet sand w/400 and mineral spirits to get those puddles gone?

I'll def post more pics. The color of the Sapele is amazing. In natural light it's quite redder than it appears in that photos (which appears very brown). But that was at night w/minimal lighting in the garage).

[Prashun Patel]

I wish I could feel the surface. But I would FIRST try to moisten a rag with mineral spirits and rub out the bubbles. You may find that they will soften and be removable. The next step would be to sand them off.

I can't explain the incompatibility either. It's real, though (at least in my experience). It seems to MIX fine, but it seems to (wrong word here) contaminate the surface so the next or same coat starts to streak or bubble. I've had enough problems with this, that i've learned to keep the two away from each other and I have had no problems since.

[James Dudley]

Hmm, ok.

So even after three days, you'd start w/rubbing w/a rag & mineral spirits to smooth things out. if that works, great. If not, move on to sanding--dry or wet (mineral spirits)?

Think I'll need to re-coat after sanding? If so, how do I keep this from happening again if I wipe and/or wet sand w/mineral spirits? Just wanna make sure I don't end up in the same spot.

[Prashun Patel]

I always try to wipe off first. The reason is that if it bubbled, there's a chance it hasn't properly dried and remains soft.
Yes, I believe you'll need to recoat after sanding.

If you wipe/wetsand with mineral spirits (as I do), use a few clean shop towels to wipe the surface as clean as possible. Then, WAIT for a couple hours. The MS will evaporate. Then wipe again with a dry shop towel to get rid of anything else.
I'm saying this like it's difficult. It's not; it's just that it doesn't MS fully evaporate as quickly as many believe. So wait a little between putting MS on the surface and putting Waterlox on the surface.

If it comes to having to sand the bubbles off, what you want to try to minimize is witness lines. Work slowly. Sand, wipe off, let it dry a little, then continue. Wetsanding obscures your progress, and hides witness lines. Even if you get MINOR witness spots, they will fill in with a couple wipe on coats of Waterlox; they just mean you'll have to wipe on 3 or 4 more instead of 1 or 2.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Kent: 2-3 days between coats 3 and 4. No scuffing in between. Nothing in between, just wiped on 3...waited, looked good...then wiped on 4.

Prashun: I don't think I thinned the last coat that I rubbed on. Honestly, I can't remember 100%. Coat 3 definitely had a touch of thinner in it.

Isn't Waterlox based on mineral spirits? Seems like it wouldn't have a compatibility issue, though I really am not an expert in such things.

With wipe-on coats, my rule of thumb is to recoat within 24 hrs. Else, scuff sand. But - your version of "wipe on" is much thicker than what I use - 50/50.

I don't know for sure - Howie and Obi-Wan Holmes may weigh in here - but I wonder if you did not have some adhesion problems. I say this because...........

I had one unmigitated, heart-breaking, find-a-dog-to-kick, disaster on a big table top. Scuff sanded btwn brush-on coats, then picked up dust resdue with MS on a rag. Maybe I did not let the MS fully evaporate, but after the next coat went on, it puddled in a staggerring way - not little bits like you see, but large swaths where the varnish "pulled back" leaving unvarnished areas. Plus - I do not remember the brand of MS - coulda been BORG or "green" or whatever. I do not use that anymore - get my stuff from SW store.

Had to sand it all back a couple coats. Never again - I use DNA to wiipe dust - it flashes 100% alomost instantly. Sorry to say - your problem looks somewhat reminiscent of mine.

Not qualified to critique your technique in detail, but can tell you what has always worked for me: first coat is brushed 25% MS; 2 - 3 coats brushed at what ever it takes to get good flow - usually 10% + a smidgen; scuff between coats with 3M 320 Gold; one last scuff, then 2 coats wipe-on @ 50/50.

PLUS -




I'm NOT going for a glass-like glossy finish. But I do want it sealed (this will be a kitchen island top).

I do NOT want to build multiple more coats to even it out, as it'll be way too thick at that point.

I'd prefer not to sand it all off and start over. There's gotta be a way to get these "puddles" gone, even if it's removing SOME of the previous coats.

My goal, again, is a semi-gloss at most finish. I want it to feel like wood still, but be protected since it'll be a kitchen work space.

Help?:confused:

Others should weigh in here, but in my experience, you cannot get there from here. You have 2 or 3 objectives that are non-compatible.

THe W'Lox is gloss. Period. You can't get good coverage with a "satiny-look" by not doing a full varnish schedule. Especially in a kitchen work space.

"Way too thick" - I don't understand this bit. For me - an "in-use" surface like a table top or counter top would be 4 - 5 brushed on coats. Get that on, do a good job, and you have a gloss surface. At which point, there are 2 options:

1. A wipe-on coat of satin. OR,
2. Wait a minimum of 4 weeks, then rub it out.

#1 is fast and easy, but you cannot adjust the satin/gloss appearance - it is what it is out of hte can.
#2 is more work, but you can dial in the gloss level you want. Stop at the grit that gets you where you [or The Angel of the Kitchen] want to be.


To me, the answer is -
1. sand it back without going thru the first coat.
2. Remove all the dust - do not use MS
3. 4 brush-on coats. Wait 24 hrs between each, scuff sand
4. PIck your poison - W'lox satin or rub-out. For my house, it is rub-out. One client wanted the look of out-of-the-can satin, so I gritted my teeth and said "Yes Ma'am. Right you are."

[James Dudley]

Kent: thanks for the feedback.

I understand the Waterlox is gloss. It'll kinda lost sheen over time according to Waterlox. I just meant that I don't want a thick, perfectly flat, plasticy looking finish on the top of this wood. I'm fine with the sheen that Waterlox achieves as it is, I'm not going to do a coat of Satin. I've read too many horror stories about that.

The idea of wiping dust with DNA rather than MS is interesting. I used some good DNA on a previous project (shellac project). I can get more of that to use. I assume there are no issues w/compatibility problems with that since it flashes so quickly? I also have Naptha on hand.



So to both of you guys, here's what I'm thinking of doing. Please tell me if you think you see an issue here.

Since it's been 3 days since I applied the last coat of waterlox, I can't believe it's wet enough to rub off. I may give that a try first, but if not, the first step is to:

1: Wetsand with MS. Do in bits/stages as noted.

2: Wait a day or two.

3: Clean with DNA. Make sure it's dry.

4: Reapply Waterlox. Kent it sounds like you suggest a brush rather than wipe-on? Is that more for coverage/thickness or something else?

[James Dudley]

2. Wait a minimum of 4 weeks, then rub it out.


Quick question about the "rub it out" bit.

The scheduling isn't a problem. It's my table, I can wait.

So this would be after all waterlox is applied, wait 4 weeks, then do....what?

[Prashun Patel]

Rubbing out is something that comes later. It's a way to really take the finish to the next level; but honestly it makes more of an impact on thickly brushed finishes. For yours, where you're applying a few thin, wiped on coats after final sanding, you may not - probably SHOULD not - rub it out later, since this can be an aggressive process that'll burn through thin layers.

I would WIPE on your final coats of Waterlox. The first after a sanding may dry streaky. Stay undaunted. By the 2nd and definitely the 3rd coat, you'll be Back Where You Belong better than .38 Special.

Kent, the Waterlox he's using is already thinned to a wiping varnish consistency. It wipes JUST FINE out of the can. If this were a different type of varnish, I'm with you in prefering to thin to 50/50, but with Waterlox OSF, it's just not friendly that way. Wipe it as is.

[Kent A Bathurst]

The general rule-of-thumb is that 3 coats of wipe-on, @ 50/50, equals 1 brush on.

You need at least 4 - really 5 - brush-on coats for a high-use area.

Do the math: 5, or 3 x 5 = 15

You have to sand between every coat of brush on. Wait 24 hr between coats.

You were correct, IMO, to have a thinned first-coat to get absorption - that is exactly what I do - build a base, then go to town.

OR, you can put down 1 wipe-on, wait 1 - 2 hours, another wipe on, wait 1 - 2 hours, a 3d wipe on. Wait 24 hours, scuff sand.

Don't short the # coats to get some "look" you have in mind - you will end up back at it, to resand and recoat. Give it what it requires, and address the target gloss issue separatley.

The point about brush-on is that it build the film thickness faster. However - you notice that I am a sissy - my brushing skills have made quantum leaps in the last few years, but I still end it all with 1 or 2 coats of wipe-on: no brush marks, faster flash time = control of dust nibs.

There is nothing wrong with the satin that I know of - just as easy to use as the regular, as far as I have experienced. You just need to want that "look", because you have no choice from there.

I guess you don't have to use DNA to help pick up the dust - - you could use distilled water, or nothing - - I just find that it helps. Something got in my way that one time, and the only thing I could htink of is that I used MS that one time, and I only waited an hour or so before the next coat - maybe there was some residual stuff there that created a barrier to adhesion between the coats - which means that the surface tension of the next coat overrode the adhesion to the previsouo coat, so it "contracted" [my scientific terminology is non-functional today]? Dunno - but it is on my superstitions list.

[James Dudley]

could old MS have caused issues? I don't know how old the stuff I have is. It's not SUPER old (like 10 years) but it's not super fresh either.

[Prashun Patel]

If the ms is clear and smells like ms, its fine.

[Sam Murdoch]

I think I apply Waterlox differently than most guys here in that I do apply it liberally with a brush rather than thin hand wipe on coats - kind of like you started. I don't follow the directions - which say no need to sand between coats. I do follow the instructions which say wait 24 hours between coats.

The following technique I use is for use on a flat surface such as a table or bar top using the Waterlox Original Sealer Finish. I no longer attempt working with the Waterlox satin - it never ever levels out in my experience and always requires way more work than should be necessary. If I want a lower sheen I buff out the top after about 5 to 6months. It really takes that long to dry hard enough to properly buff it. This is my experience and I don't claim that it is the only way to go. It works well for me. So...

After 24 hours or longer in a 65° to 68° comfortable room (too much heat usually causes problems with Waterlox) I then sand the entire surface with a 220 Abranet Mesh on my finish sander. This after the 1st coat. Each subsequent coat up to 6 gets sanded with finer grits up to no less than 320. Using a Festool ETS 150/3 with a vac system - very very little dust.

Nonetheless I vacum and tack cloth meticulously between coats and the cleaning includes making certain that I am dust free too (hair included). The 1st and 2nd coat are usually brushed on with a good bristle brush but by the 3rd and subsequent coats I favor applying with the brush but tipping off with a loaded (but not dripping) wide foam brush with a crisp edge. Not all foam brushes are of the same quality but whatever I'm using holds up well and lays a nice coat. I work from one long edge to the other quickly and maintain a smooth overlap and tip off in long light strokes from one end to the other over every 2 or 3 laps. Others report that spraying is very effective.

All this to say that I think you might have started running into trouble leaving bubbles and then "Much thinner coat here, just enough to wet the wood a bit. Rubbed it in." - that rubbing in to the coats below that were likely still too soft and being softened and moved around more with the mineral spirited mix you were working in was the beginning of the end. You were now working all 3 layers at once. Sanding between coats after 24 hours will give you a dusty surface but rubbing wet into that surface will just soften below.

If this were my project I would stop for 3 or 4 days (preferably a bit longer) then just sand with 180 grit up to 320 grit to what will appear as a good even surface - not to bare wood. Then just start applying the finish through the steps.

[Scott Holmes]

Wet sanding is for final rub out. Wet sanding between coats can create real problems; like missed slurry/dust that gets trapped IN the finish, looks white not pretty.

3 wipe on = 1 properly applied wipe-on coats.

It sounds as if your are not using the proper technique to wipe-on the varnish. It may be because you are not thinning the varnish enough for a wipe-on application. You should thin the varnish about 50/50 with mineral spirits and then wipe in on like the kid wipes the table just before you sit down at the fast food joint.. wipe it on and leave it alone, no going back and forth or over the same area more than once, twice at the most.

A 3' x 5' table top should take less than a minute to wipe-on a coat of varnish... a 2 or 3 coat set per night is best. I usually do a light scuff sand (dry) with 320 open coat sandpaper just before the last coat.

With Waterlox I usually do 2 sets because it is a bit slower to become dry-to-the-touch than some of the other varnishes. Waterlox does not need to be sanded between coats unless it's been a couple of days since the last coat. Poly varnish MUST be sanded to get it to stick; not so with Waterlox.

[Prashun Patel]

Scott, the op is using waterlox original non voc, which i take to mean original sealer finish. This is already thinned and is the right wiping consistency out of the can. Thinning further is what i strongly believe got him in this pickle. Are you suggesting that he should thin the osf further? I am respectful of your experience on this.

sam, i use his technique of rubbing in subsequent coats. It does not give you problems if the coats are thin and if you give decent time to dry, like 8 hours or more. At the worst, rubbing more osf on top of soft osf will result in a draggy cloth, streaks, dust, and a dull, uneven surface -not bubbles.

i hardly come out this strong on a topic, but i have had this exact experience when i started out with waterlox. Beating a dead horse alert: nix the ms. There may be other ways to apply the waterlox, but materials, not technique was the culprit here.

[Prashun Patel]

I just thought about this. If sapele is a wood with a lot of natural oil in it, then this could be the culprit. Is it?

[James Dudley]

Hey Sam,

The bubbles I referenced weren't still bubbles. The had "popped" but left tiny little barely noticeable rings in a few spots, but I figured that would go away as the surface began to build up. I always waited 48 hours or 72 between coats. I always felt it to make sure it felt dry, and checked for any dust contamination.

Would that still cause issues? It's been cold here, which is why I waited longer between coats.

It's already sat since Monday, so four days since I've done anything to it.

BTW, really appreciate all the feedback here. Just trying to understand what may have happened so I don't run into problems again (hopefully!).

[Conrad Fiore]

I could be missing something here, but looking at the photo, it looks like your problem is not bubbles as everyone is talking about, but a beading up of the varnish like the poster stated. Like a surface tension or contamination problem.

[Sam Murdoch]

Scott, the op is using waterlox original non voc, which i take to mean original sealer finish. This is already thinned and is the right wiping consistency out of the can. Thinning further is what i strongly believe got him in this pickle. Are you suggesting that he should thin the osf further? I am respectful of your experience on this.

sam, i use his technique of rubbing in subsequent coats. It does not give you problems if the coats are thin and if you give decent time to dry, like 8 hours or more. At the worst, rubbing more osf on top of soft osf will result in a draggy cloth, streaks, dust, and a dull, uneven surface -not bubbles.

i hardly come out this strong on a topic, but i have had this exact experience when i started out with waterlox. Beating a dead horse alert: nix the ms. There may be other ways to apply the waterlox, but materials, not technique was the culprit here.

Agree that MS is not a friend to Waterlox and as for wiping on subsequent coats I was only trying to emphasize that the first 2 coats that the OP writes were liberally applied with a brush may not have been sufficiently dry to withstand the rubbing out (rather than merely wiping on) additional coats.

Speculating on what might have gone wrong in someone else's process/situation is just that - speculating. I read now (below) in James's next post how long he waited between coats and that the "bubbles" had already popped (maybe I missed these details from the earlier read), anyway it surely sounds that the surface was contaminated early in the process. Now what - sand it off and start again wouldn't you say?

[James Dudley]

I could be missing something here, but looking at the photo, it looks like your problem is not bubbles as everyone is talking about, but a beading up of the varnish like the poster stated. Like a surface tension or contamination problem.

Right. Definitely an issue with the last coating of varnish beading up and then drying like that. I think Prashun nailed that for sure, even though it's a mystery why it would happen since WL is a MS-based varnish.

[James Dudley]

I just thought about this. If sapele is a wood with a lot of natural oil in it, then this could be the culprit. Is it?

The first few coats went on w/no real issues other than the few bubbles (again, that popped and dried). So wouldn't that have sealed any oil issues? Plus, I wasn't thinking Sapele was that oily (nothing like Teak or Rosewood). People say it's a relative to Mahogany, though I don't really know if that's true. It's a fairly hard wood, harder than hard maple, but nothing like Cocobolo.

[Jeffrey Cole]

I agree, I use a lambs wool applicator to apply waterlox. It loads up and puts down a fairly heavy coat. I coat from one end of a board to the other no stopping. I overlap each coat about 20%. 3 coats over all plus 2 or 3 additional on table top with high abuse.
Jeffrey

[James Dudley]

Well, looks like I have some sanding to do this weekend. :(

oh well. All's well that ends well, and I'm determined to make sure this thing ends well!

[Prashun Patel]

...Speculating on what might have gone wrong in someone else's process/situation is just that - speculating...

Oh, but isn't that the fun part. Arm chair quarterbacks of the world, UNITE! ;)

[James Dudley]

Oh, but isn't that the fun part. Arm chair quarterbacks of the world, UNITE! ;)

lol. Well, I'd love for any of you to come inspect in person. But at least I've learned about the concept...as confusing as it might be...that MS and Waterlox don't necessarily play nicely. And all was fine until after coat 3, which had 10% MS added to the waterlox. The next coat beaded up like crazy. So it makes sense that this was the genesis of the problem.

I'll keep you guys posted as I progress.

[Prashun Patel]

...this was the genesis of the problem...

Would you say, "She seems to have an invisible touch, yeah" of mineral spirits?

[scott vroom]

I just thought about this. If sapele is a wood with a lot of natural oil in it, then this could be the culprit. Is it?

The qtr sawn sapele I've worked with is not at all oily.

[James Dudley]

Would you say, "She seems to have an invisible touch, yeah" of mineral spirits?

Ahhhh hah aha NO

[Scott Holmes]

I expected the "Waterlox Original" to mean varnish not the Sealer/finish which is indeed already thinned. Non VOC? Not sure if that means old formula or the new one; which I have not used.

I re-read the OP and he said Waterlox Original not the low VOC so it's the old formula... Was it the Sealer Finish or the regular varnish? I assumed the regular varnish.

James (OP) which finish are you using?

[James Dudley]

Hey Scott,

This one:
http://www.waterlox.com/products-item/waterlox-original-penetrating-tung-oil-floor-sealer-finish.aspx

The original finish is the sealer/finish. They have that one, glossy, and satin, and then the low VOC version, and then satin and gloss oil-modified urethanes.
http://www.waterlox.com/products/

BTW, Waterlox considers the original finish a varnish.

http://www.waterlox.com/faqs/performance/comparison-of-waterlox-original-tung-oil-finishes-to-others


We view our Waterlox Original Tung oil finishes as varnishes, and while many make untrue product claims, Waterlox has never made any claims that we manufacture anything but a varnish. Our varnish is however a truly unique blend of Tung oil and resin that showcases the natural beauty of wood, providing lasting, durable protection.

[Scott Holmes]

I never said they were anything but varnish. Varnish thinned to can be wiped-on, e.g. wipe-on varnish. Usually about 50/50 mix with mineral spirits to regular varnish is about right for a wipe-on application. It's still varnish, as the additional thinner does not change the chemical properties of the finish.

The technique you used to apply it (you rubbed it in) is sometimes used for and oil/varnish blend, aka Danish Oil, application. The best way to apply an oil/varnish blend is to apply liberally, allow a few minutes to soak in, then buff or rub it dry.

That is NOT the correct process for a wipe-on varnish. After reading the posts and comments by you and others; I suspect something got on you project to cause the poor adhesion of the wipe-on varnish. Could be residue from the rag or a tack cloth, then, that would be my guess as the source of the contaminate on your surface.

You should be able to scuff sand (320) it and wipe-on another coat or two. Wipe it like the kid wipes the table.

[Kent A Bathurst]

After reading the posts and comments by you and others; I suspect something got on you project to cause the poor adhesion of the wipe-on varnish. Could be residue from the rag or a tack cloth, then, that would be my guess as the source of the contaminate on your surface.


Yeah - on that project of mine, something changed the relationship between next coat adhesion v surface tension, and surface tension won out, causing the next coat to retract from the table surface.

This looked similar. Plus, in its non-thinned state, the surface tension was [relatively] high - it did not want to flow.

My only guess was that on mine, I had not let the MS dry [used to pick up sanding dust]. Never tested this theory out, just made sure I never did that again - and never saw those results since.

[Mel Fulks]

Kent, I'm not a counseler but I'm guessing that both coats thought the other "smelled bad".

[Kent A Bathurst]

Kent, I'm not a counseler but I'm guessing that both coats thought the other "smelled bad".

Could be. All I know is that it ruined my day, and consumed all of my cuss words. I had to borrow some from a friend, in fact.

Sand it back, but don't cut thru the bottom coat or two. Start over. Not rocket science. Just elbow grease. And - annoying and very embarrasing.

[James Dudley]

What grit would you guys use to sand back?

[Scott Holmes]

320 with a foam pad. I normally use 5" ROS disc on a hand pad similar to this one: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61S9FTtHZZL._SL500_SS100_.jpg

[James Dudley]

Excellent. Thank you. I'll post progress as it happens!

[James Dudley]

Sanded with 320 to smooth. Looked good.

Vacuumed.

Wiped with a clean rag wetted with denatured alcohol. Vacuumed again. Waited for the DNA to flash off. Wiped with a clean rag to check. No dust. Clean.

Waited another 30 just to be sure.

Checked again with a rag. No dust

Wiped on a thin coat like a kid wiping a table. Just enough to wet it. No heavy coat. No puddling or pulling back. Went on just fine.

Got all three pieces done.

Looked pretty dry fairly fast. How long do I wait between wipe on coats?

Do I do another tonight? Applied the first at 2:30.

Or do I wait to tomorrow? Plan to NOT sand between coats.

[Prashun Patel]

There is no harm in waiting overnight. In some cases you can recoat within a few hours. The issue I have is that if it's not fully dry, it will provide some tack or drag on the cloth, preventing you from moving it around nice and smooth and quick.

So, I now always resist the urge to recoat too quickly and wait overnight. I'd add my next coat in the AM tomorrow and then the final before I go to bed tomorrow night.

[Kent A Bathurst]

OK.

So - You're not sure exactly what you did wrong, but you know fer sure you don't ever want to do it again. :D :D

For wipe-on @ 50/50, wait 1 hour between coats. No sanding needed. Good for 3 coats.

If you want a 4th, you need to wait 24 hours, and sand.

Remember - 3 wipe-on = 1 brush on in terms of building film thickness.

I don't recall what this piece is going to be, and I understand you just want to get out as painlessly as you can. Having said that - - -

If it is a high-use surface [dining table, kitchen counter, stuff like that] you need at least 4 brush-on, or equivalent # of wipe-on. Me - I generally go for 4 brush-on + 2 wipe on. Do what you want, of course.

Glad the wind has shifted to your back. Good luck. Post photos of finished project, please.

[James Dudley]

Kent: you got it exactly right ;). As long as I don't do what I did, whatever that was, I'll be good.

lol

My guess based on the mentions here are that (a) the 3rd coat, which was a wipe-on with 10% added MS, introduced some sort of issue that appeared when I tried to wipe the 4th coat. And then (b) I also think that the 3rd coat, and maybe the 4th coat were wiped on way too heavily. So it was either the MS contamination that people have reported, or the 3rd coat wasn't fully dry when I applied the 4th.

Anyhoo....I'm in no rush. So while some suggest a few quick coats (1-2 hrs between), I'm going to err on the side of safety and apply the next coat tomorrow, after ensuring the coat I applied today is way dry.

If it dries well enough, maybe another as suggested later tomorrow.

This is a kitchen island. Effectively the major countertop space in the kitchen. So it'll get a lot of use, but hopefully not TOO much abuse! The first two coats were brushed on quite liberally. Then the two liberal wiped coats that were pretty much sanded off. I'll do as many wiped coats as necessary, even if it takes a while. I don't mind. I just want to avoid the same issue again. And it only takes a few minutes to wipe on a coat.

I assume I need a fresh rag for each coat. I'll have to cut them down smaller to avoid waste. The one I just used was maybe a little too big. Just means wasting more rag and soaking up more finish (which ain't cheap).

Thanks for all the help guys. Hoping I've hit the final snag! (famous last words)

I'll definitely post pics once finishing is done.

I may even dig up my drawings for the concept.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I assume I need a fresh rag for each coat. I'll have to cut them down smaller to avoid waste. The one I just used was maybe a little too big. Just means wasting more rag and soaking up more finish (which ain't cheap).

No-no-no-no-no..................

For wipe-on coats, go to the BORG and get a roll of Scott Blue Shop Towels. Look like blue paper towels, but they are lint-free, and texture-free. Wouldn't seem like it, but they are MUCH preferred over cotton rags or whatever. Absolutely perfect for wipe-on varnish.

[James Dudley]

No-no-no-no-no..................

For wipe-on coats, go to the BORG and get a roll of Scott Blue Shop Towels. Look like blue paper towels, but they are lint-free, and texture-free. Wouldn't seem like it, but they are MUCH preferred over cotton rags or whatever. Absolutely perfect for wipe-on varnish.

Ahhh, perfect. Cool. Will do for subsequent coats.

I bought a bag of t-shirt type cotton towels. Totally lint-free, but I'm sure way less economical than the shop towels.

Thanks!

[Kent A Bathurst]

I bought a bag of t-shirt type cotton towels. Totally lint-free..........

With all due respect....No. They are not lint free.

I buy 5# - 10 # boxes at a time. Go thru them like stuff thru a goose. But - the first thing I do is to put them in the washer. Hot-hot wash cycle, with soap and bleach to break down the sizing.

Then into the drier. Hot-hot. Check the lint trap - you will not believe how much lint comes off.

I go thru 3 cycles like this before I use them. Lint trap still collects a lot-lot-lot. And - they are still not lint-free, but much better.

I use them for slopping on dye, and wiping off dye and gel stain, picking up glue squeeze-out, emergency hankie, general use, and stuff like that. But never-never-never applying varnish, etc.

I learned the hard way - I thought they were fine as well, until I learned they weren't - because of the schmutz left on the piece when I used them for varnish.

LIve and learn, live and learn.

[James Dudley]

fair enough. I got them from a woodworking shop--they said they were specifically made for varnish. But you could be right. I didn't see anything coming off from the one use, but I picked up the blue towels.

[James Dudley]

Oh man. I much prefer the wiping method. Yeah it'll take more coats. But each coat takes just a few minutes.

So far so good. One coat last night. One coat this AM. One more tonight and I'll see where we stand.

Again, thanks so much for all the feedback.

[James Dudley]

I also think the need to sand may have been a blessing in disguise. The surface after two coats of brushed/liberally applied finish and two lightly ragged layers was still slightly rough-ish. The finish is silky smooth now, but still feels like wood, not plastic.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I also think the need to sand may have been a blessing in disguise. The surface after two coats of brushed/liberally applied finish and two lightly ragged layers was still slightly rough-ish. The finish is silky smooth now, but still feels like wood, not plastic.

And there you have it. Sanding is a small-ish PITA, but necessary for adhesion of next coat. Plus - you get to knock down dust nibs and smooth the surface.

Glad it is all working out for you now, James. Your frustration - very understandable - was coming thru loud and clear in your early posts. Now, you have clearly stepped back from the precipice, and taken the noose down from the shop ceiling. Keep the rope coiled on a shelf somewhere - you will need it again one day. :p :p

As a wise man once told me: "If you simply cannot stand sanding, you need a different avocation".

[James Dudley]

Yeah I actually don't mind sanding if it helps the finished product. Sure it's a pain to sand, vacuum, wet wipe, dry wipe/vacuum, then go to the next coat.

In my case, Waterlox's own directions say that sanding isn't necessary between coats for adhesion, but you can choose to do it between the next-to-last and final coat for aesthetic reasons (smoothness). I guess I figured it would get smoother via layers faster than it did.

Regardless, yes things (so far) are no progressing more smoothly I think. It's all a learning process. Every time I tackle a project I learn something new, which honestly is part of the fun of it....even if it DOES provide some frustration. But then, when does learning not provide a little frustration?

If it was too easy, it wouldn't quite feel the same, eh?

[Prashun Patel]

Glad you got over the hump with this. There have been an inordinate number of Waterlox-frustration posts in the past couple weeks. It's a shame, because a lot of people will get turned off of it. You'll find now that it's hard to 'mess up' now that you know how to read the look and feel during application.

I'd take Waterlox's caveat one step further: If wiping, I think you SHOULDN'T sand between coats. Sanding before the final coat(s) is all that's needed for a smooth, excellent finish. If you really want to kick it up a notch, check out Mirka Abralon pads (1000,2000,3000,4000 grit) and try sanding your penultimate coat with these (lubricated with water) before applying your final coat(s). I think you can achieve a pretty professional result this way. I do think that you should wait a couple days between the initial coats and that sanding.

[James Dudley]

Yeah, honestly, overall the Waterlox has been great. It was just that one coat that puddled up...and I made the mistake of thinning it out in the previous coat.

After working with a number of other finishes over the years (i am by NO means a pro or even advanced amateur), this one really is quite nice. The finished look that's coming together is very nice indeed. So I'm a fan. It's not cheap stuff, but that's OK if it works.

Yeah I don't plan to sand between these thin wipe coats. But as I said, the sanding prior to this really did give a far nicer-feeling surface. So that almost-done sanding step is a good one I think.

We'll see how the next coat or two goes, but it should be getting close I think. Just a few spots to even up in terms of overall sheen.

[James Dudley]

So it's going well overall.

I am seeing, however, a few swirl marks in the sheen.

I'm wiping w/the blue shop towels, applying a really light layer, not a heavy wet layer. And I'm being careful to not go back over areas. It takes about a minute or less to do each piece. It's quick. Surface is super smooth, and these aren't sanding marks (I always sand w/the grain). So it's definitely swirls from the application. You can only see it in a harsh reflection. Will these disappear w/more applications? Or is there something I should do to get the swirls out? This is OSF, so not the satin version. Thoughts? Just wanna make sure these won't be visible when I'm done.

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr297/superbadj/IMG_1827_zps52cd92f2.jpg (http://s493.photobucket.com/user/superbadj/media/IMG_1827_zps52cd92f2.jpg.html)

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr297/superbadj/IMG_1825_zps3ad6fb3f.jpg (http://s493.photobucket.com/user/superbadj/media/IMG_1825_zps3ad6fb3f.jpg.html)

It's really amazing how the color shifts between fluorescent light and sunlight. The other pics are deeper in the garage. I have one more piece from the same slab that is near a window, and had direct sunlight on it this morning as I was working. This piece has some really nice cracks in it, along with some tooling marks from the saws. I left those in because they just looked so fitting with the overall aesthetic of this particular piece. Originally this was going to be a mid-level shelf in the kitchen island. Might still be. But the piece is so nice, I may find another use for it. The color of the Sapele is amazing. These are straight out of the iPhone, no effects at all. It's stunning wood.

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr297/superbadj/IMG_1829_zps1f23f7c6.jpg (http://s493.photobucket.com/user/superbadj/media/IMG_1829_zps1f23f7c6.jpg.html)

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr297/superbadj/IMG_1828_zpsfe8d33bb.jpg (http://s493.photobucket.com/user/superbadj/media/IMG_1828_zpsfe8d33bb.jpg.html)

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr297/superbadj/IMG_1824_zps6be66862.jpg (http://s493.photobucket.com/user/superbadj/media/IMG_1824_zps6be66862.jpg.html)

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr297/superbadj/IMG_1823_zpsa901058b.jpg (http://s493.photobucket.com/user/superbadj/media/IMG_1823_zpsa901058b.jpg.html)

[Prashun Patel]

It will go away with more coats. Just resist the temptation to leave a thicker film. Keep doing as you describe. Thinky wiped like this, it doesnt like to be reqorked and overwiped.

also, you are. Using. The Non low voc version, right?

[James Dudley]

Right. The original sealer finish, regular version. NOT the "low voc" version.

Cool. Glad to hear it'll resolve itself.

[Alan Lightstone]

I just thought about this. If sapele is a wood with a lot of natural oil in it, then this could be the culprit. Is it?

Late to the party, but I've used Waterlox on many sapele projects. It handles it just fine, though I've had lots of other Waterlox issues.

[James Dudley]

Quick question.

In this page that's been referenced on this site a lot (http://askhlm.com/Home/HLMRedirect.aspx/Articles/ArticleViewPage/tabid/75/ArticleId/5/Wipe-on-Varnish.aspx), it says to wipe on a wet coat, THEN go back over without adding more varnish and wipe it in.

But other directions I've read here stringently advise to NOT go back over, ever. Just apply a very light (not even reflective wet) coat and leave it. Don't go back.

Which is right? Or are both right and it's a matter of preference but both will work?

[James Dudley]

Well I'll keep on keeping on hoping I'm following the right method (not going back over, just applying thinly and leaving it).

[James Dudley]

Hey fellas,

A little birdie told me about the ability to contribute to the site, and I've certainly been helped by you guys. So I'm happy to be a new contributor!

Ok--latest update.

I am pretty happy with the finish at its current status overall. I believe it's built up enough. Looks good except for one thing: I can still see fairly slight swirl marks. In the last coat, applied around 8pm last night before the Cowboys THANK GOD beat the Iggles, I was very careful to apply a very even wipe coat, and you could not see swirl marks while it was wet-ish.

But checking it this morning, I am still seeing swirls from the application when you view with strong reflections from a window or light.

I'd prefer not to keep adding layers, as I don't want it TOO thick. But if that'll solve the problem, so be it. Or is there another option? Buffing? Wet sanding after it cures for a bit? Do I need to do something now to get the swirls out NOW? Or do I wait and work in that after it cures?

As always, appreciate the help here. I'll post pics when I can. I really need to get it in better light.

[Prashun Patel]

What grit did you sand with?

Is the sheen otherwise good?

Those swirls may have been from a heavy hand from a previous coat. Are they reducing with each subsequent coat? If yes, they will eventually disappear.

Alas, I think you've reached the point of graduation on the Waterlox education. You know all the things to do, and are trying to do them properly. From here, I believe it's a matter of touch and practice. I had similar issues when I was starting on Waterlox, but knowing how it feels and what to anticipate now, makes it like second nature. I find it now hard to 'mess up'. You will too if you keep at it.

To answer your previous question about rubbing in:

I like to flood on my first couple coats and rub them in to the absorby areas. I may stay for 10 minutes on a large table top this way on the first and second coat. This truly is a rub in. This only has value before the wood is sealed. After, your mindset should switch to polish when doing wipe on. If you try to rub in to the sealed surface, you're just going to overwork the surface and get swirls or streaks.

In fact, I like such a thin top coat most of the time, I wipe it on and then buff most of it off. Done this way, I am just looking for an evenly sheened, moist surface, not wet - not even slick.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Hey fellas,

A little birdie told me about the ability to contribute to the site, and I've certainly been helped by you guys. So I'm happy to be a new contributor!

Welcome to the club. Best thing about Contributor status - chicks in bars dig it.






I am still seeing swirls from the application when you view with strong reflections from a window or light.

I'd prefer not to keep adding layers, as I don't want it TOO thick. But if that'll solve the problem, so be it. Or is there another option? Buffing? Wet sanding after it cures for a bit? Do I need to do something now to get the swirls out NOW? Or do I wait and work in that after it cures?


Couple things.

First - What I am about to say is contrary to the conventional wisdom on how to apply wipe-on [Scott's thing about "a kid wiping the table at Dennys"]. I always fold up my blue paper towel into, like 3ds and then 4ths - give me a pad the size of my fingers. And - I fold it so there is one sharp, clean edge - with no corners hanging out.

And then, I apply it as you would if you were using padding cloth to apply shellac. Even strokes with the grain, side-to-side. One long swipe starting by landing 2" from an edge, and then a short return swipe to pick up that bit.

Works for me - but not the generally recommended method.

Next - You can buff or rub-out the finish with excellent results - can even dial in your target gloss level. But - you have to wait for at least 4 weeks. In a few days, you have reached a "functional" cure to put the piece into service, but the varnish does not reach a full cure for quite a while - and you gotta get there or you will muck up the finish if you were to go after it too soon.

That's what I would do here, to be honest - plant the flag, claim victory, and come back in 4 - 6 weeks to reevaluate and go after it if you choose.

You realize, of course, that in all likelihood, YOU are now the only person who is capable of seeing any imperfections, right?

[James Dudley]

I sanded with 320. These definitely aren't sand marks (only sanded w/the grain....these are swirls from the wipe finish).

Yes they're slowly disappearing. But I can't tell if the swirls I see now are the same swirls I saw before, if you know what I mean. I guess I can't tell if I'm making new swirls or if these are the "old" swirls from the first wipe coat or two.

The sheen is otherwise good I think. I'm going to check it in brighter light today. But I think it's good. I just wasn't sure if there was some technique for a final rub w/like MS or whatever to "buff" the finish to a totally even sheen. I kinda want to avoid making the finish thicker at this point.

When you "polish" these final wipe coats, do you apply much pressure? Or very little? I've been using very little pressure (virtually none). Just evenly wiping the surface so I can tell it's covered and then moving on. Not re-wiping. Not pressing.

I feel like it's so close to being "done"...and I want to avoid messing it up at this point. But I also don't want to settle for almost perfect if I can avoid that. I feel like getting an even sheen/finish is important. GO AWAY SWIRLS!

[James Dudley]

Kent,

Waiting 4-6 weeks is fine. I'm not in a huge rush, frankly. I have to have a wall removed for this to be put into place, and we've not yet scheduled that (for a number of reasons). So I have the time.

That's kinda what I figured re: waiting then buffing. A semi-gloss (but even) is pretty much what I want. Plus the Wlox will lose a little sheen over time according to the manuf.

And yes, I realize that I'll see way more imperfections than anyone else would. But you know how it is. Gotta be satisfied w/this thing since I've spent so much time on it.

Ok, I'm going to check this later today. I'm leaning towards kinda waiting for a longer cure then looking into buffing. I may decide to wipe one last coat to see if it gets the sheen that much more even. But my guess is that I'll decide against that. I'll know soon enough.

[Prashun Patel]

I vote to wipe on an additional coat. On the 10 or so pieces I've done with Waterlox, I've never had to buff/rub any of them out. When you are building thin as you and I do, then it's not so much an issue. When you lay it on thick and build up, then you may benefit from rub out post curing.

Try this for your next coat:

Apply it on very thin. Then take a clean shop towel, and lightly - with no pressure, buff the surface so most of at you put on comes off. Polish in quick broad circles, flipping the shop towel as necessary. If you feel any pulling, then start with a new towel. Look at the piece in raking light and make sure the sheen is even.

I highly believe this is all a matter of touch. The practice you have here will make the next time a breeze. Don't give up.

[James Dudley]

lol. You guys should consult to avoid perfectly-reasonable-yet-differing advice!

I'll take a look here in a bit and post the decision and/or results.

[James Dudley]

So I decided to do kinda a mix of the advice given. And I did a little experiment. Just because I'm evidently nuts.

1: I decided to do one more coat. The swirls were going away lightly with each coat, but they weren't gone. I figured one more coat wouldn't hurt, and wouldn't significantly add to the thickness of the finish. But if it helped the swirls disappear, great.

2: Rather than use swirls, I applied more like Ken noted: long strokes, with the grain. I figured the marks from the application would be less noticeable if they were with the grain.

3: Out of curiosity only, I did a little experiment. On the lower shelf, I applied the Wlox as noted above and left it as I've been doing--very light coat, just slightly wet, no overwiping. On the upper piece, I applied a touch more, but then polished as Prashun noted until effectively dry-ish.

Why did I try that? I figured either route could be "fixed" with an additional coat if needed, so there was little to no risk of an issue. And I knew they wouldn't result in wildly different sheens.

Ultimately, they came out pretty much the same. The lower shelf will be mostly covered up with stuff, so I wasn't too worried if it was ever so slightly different. And I wanted to see which approach worked better. Result: as I said, pretty much identical.

The swirls are now about 99% gone. I'm done. I'm not sure if the one or two very minor swirls will mellow over time or not. They're almost impossible to see unless you get just in the right spot with the right light. They're effectively invisible.

So now, it's 6-8 weeks of waiting until I can work on putting this thing together. I want to make sure the cure is fairly hard before I start installing metal pipe legs and cast iron legs on it.

I'll try to post some pics soon of the pieces.

[Kent A Bathurst]

lol. You guys should consult to avoid perfectly-reasonable-yet-differing advice!

I'll take a look here in a bit and post the decision and/or results.


Hey - the thing is that there are generally multiple routes to where you wanna go. Certain methods work better for different guys - dunno why, but there you are.

Plus - I will change up methods when I read sumpin that sounds like a good alternative, or sounds like sumpin worth trying once to learn, or comes from an impeccable sourcere, or, or, or............

I think this discussion was nibbling around the margins, to be honest.

Plus - most important - learned this from an executive/mentor at a consuting client in my early days:

"I may be wrong, but I am never uncertain." :D :D

[James Dudley]

lol. Yeah, I figured either route would work, and indeed it did.

In a weird twist I would have never foreseen, I had the garage doors open for a little while yesterday while I cleaned something else. Just one door. And just for about two hours, while I was present (but outside).

Somehow, a damn bird got into the garage (large detached two-car garage) and ---- on all three pieces of wood!

I got it cleaned up and it didn't seem to mar the finish at all, thankfully.

[Prashun Patel]

That is really poetic. I think this is a divine reminder that we should keep things in perspective.

"Swirls? you're worried about swirls? Try a little fertilizer on for size..."

[James Dudley]

yeah. I had mixed moments of chucking and being furious. I took a little DNA to wipe at first, but that almost did nothing. A little bit of spit cleaned it right off. Weird but true.

Seems OK now.

[James Dudley]

This project is done finishing but in the assembly phase. I'll post pics soon.

Here's one about a related project (something j made with the "scrap" wood from the top slab).

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?226062-Sapele-custom-design-welded-steel-legs-awesome-side-table

[Jim A Walters]

Just catching up on this but thought I'd post what Waterlox says in their FAQ about using MS for thinning or even wiping in case others run into similar problems.

Do NOT thin, mix, clean brushes or applicator tools or wipe wood surfaces with products labeled as: "Low-VOC Mineral Spirits", "Green Mineral Spirits", "Low-VOC Multi-Purpose Solvents" or "Low-Odor Mineral Spirits". These types of solvents are not compatible with Waterlox Original products.


Many of these solvents/cleaners contain up to 50% water and surfactants and/or they are blends of VOC-compliant solvents and acetone. Acetone is not a suitable solvent with our products and any products with water will raise the grain of bare wood.

Look for product labels that read "100% aliphatic hydrocarbon solvent" or "100% petroleum distillates".

[Prashun Patel]

Jim,

I am not sure what "low odor mineral spirits" is, but "Odorless Mineral Spirits" does not have any water in it. It's basically another name for "Mineral Spirits". They call it 'odorless' to distinguish it from kerosene, which has odor.

The caveat on the Waterlox website is to make sure that people don't thin low-voc thinners with their original product. That is true.

However, I will go a step further and advise users not to thin Waterlox Original Sealer Finish (Original formula) with even '100% aliphatic hydrocarbon solvent', '100% petroleum distillates', or regular 'mineral spirits'. In theory this should be compatible, but in my experience it leads to adhesion problems and streaks.

I cannot speak to thinning the full-strength varnishes (Original Gloss and Original Satin).

I repeat this, because the names Waterlox has chosen for their products has led to IMHO a great deal of consumer confusion and misinformation.

[James Dudley]

Hey Prashun,

Yeah, I think I used low odor or odorless mineral spirits, which lead to my issues when finishing. But it got fixed up thanks to this forum!

I'll get better pics soon, but here are pics today of assembling the piece.

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr297/superbadj/8534a46f053d1dccbd52a91e8c0f36b8_zpsb84ac359.jpg

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr297/superbadj/a4045972547cbbbdb272160a676a877e_zps93e6c3fe.jpg


So far so good! The color of the wood is really great. So rich, especially in sunlight. It's beautiful stuff. The figure (chatoyance I guess it's called) is amazing--the Waterlox really brought it out.

The live edge, which I didn't get a good pic of, looks great.