Plywood vs the real thing

[Mike Holbrook]

I have read my share of posts over the years but I can not recall a post of this nature. That nature being a discussion of where, if anywhere, posters here use plywood. I have read posts and even books, Jim Tolpin's New Traditional Woodworker for instance, in which the authors have stated they never use plywood. If in fact many neanders avoid plywood, I am interested in the techniques used to join solid boards to make larger surfaces like cabinets and table tops.

I should point out that my mentor in woodworking seems to have a fobia regarding gluing up boards and making them into a sizable flat surface. I happen to have helped him transport a sizable supply of cherry and oak from an Atlanta supplier to his shop many years ago. Having been a Georgia Pacific employee of some note at the time he was able to broker a great deal for a large enough supply of wood to last him several decades. This wood was all rough sawn and stacked in a basement on whatever wood strips he had or cut for the job. His experience working this relatively rough wood causes him to constantly warn me against the rigors of gluing wood up and leveling it for larger surfaces.

I am starting a number of cabinet projects and building a couple bench/work table surfaces. I am trying to figure out where it might be appropriate to use which type of wood? I have a sizable collection of hand planes that I am becoming at least decent at tuning and sharpening. I have the Veritas small plow (with large blade kit) and regular size router planes. My friend builds almost all his shop tables, cabinets...from plywood and construction grade lumber that he runs through a lunch box planer. I have been thinking about making cabinet carcasses with plywood, maybe with hardwood corners. I am considering making the front frames and doors from hardwood. I am also considering hardwood frame construction with plywood panels inserted for doors....Don't get me started on my ideas for table tops combining plywood, MDF and hard/soft real wood.

I am especially interested in neander methods for gluing up panels. I know the guys on the power tool side would use a Domino to line up the pieces and then run them through a planer. Is simple edge gluing and flattening the preferred method? Does anyone use their plow plane to make tongues and grooves on 3/4" & smaller board edges for glue ups?

[steven c newman]

I joint the edges, then a nice BIG bead of glue on one edge. Slide the two mating edges a bit as they go together. Maybe 1/2" of slide, back and forth. Helps to set the glue a bit. Then one clamp under, one over, and one under, with the over about in the middle of the panel. No splines, dowels, T&G joints needed.

IF the ends get a bit uneven, a cawl and a few clamps along the edge does the trick. Works when there are a bunch of narrow boards used to make a wide panel. Usually, just a piece of scrap wood, above and below the ends, with "C" clamps to align things up. For some pine panels, I have used a couple old angle irons, too.

Wide panels? Use a bunch of narrow boards to make a more stable and FLAT panel. Like in the range of 3-4" wide ones. Match the grain for best looks. You can even rip a WIDE board down to those narrow strips. match the grain, and glue it up. BTDT, when one works with Barn woods, not much over 5" is available.

[David Weaver]

I'm slowly putting it together on kitchen cabinets. Other than that.... No.

[Daniel Rode]

Plywood in general can be useful for something that requires dimensional stability. It's not very interesting to work by hand, though. Over the years, the quality of plywood has dropped while the price has risen. Moreover, it's become thinner, 15/32" instead of 1/2" or the metric equivalent.

I use plywood sparingly now and mostly for shop stuff. 1/4" mostly. I have a sheet of borg 3/4" oak plywood that's been collecting dust for 5 years.

I just prefer to work with solid wood. I 'll glue up pieces to get the width I need using simple edge joints. No biscuits, dominoes or dowels. Flat, square edges and glue. I deal with wood movement the same ways as have been used for hundreds of years (thousands, maybe?)

[Prashun Patel]

The issue with plywood and hand tools is that the glue in between the layers can be difficult on blades. I've spokeshaved plywood gluing forms before and it's not fun. No shavings, just a lot of bad smelling dust.

Cauls can keep things aligned in both worlds.

I don't like to glue up plywood panels on edge because it's hard to get a seamless edge, and any tool work on the seams risks running through. It also looks cheap (that's my opinion).

In fact, I more and more find that careful aligning, scraping, and planing are preferable to running things through a planer - especially if you (er, I) have not learned how to perfectly read grain direction prior to the glue up. DAMHIKT...

[David Weaver]

My problem with plywood is that if you apply a simple finish like shellac followed by wax, or oil followed by those two, its going to suck up finish like wood doesn't, and make it a nuisance to try to get a color match.

That, and the glue issue prashun mentions, though that's not necessarily a toxic issue (there are cheap planes with HSS irons, and a regular plane will do OK if you remind yourself you'll be sharpening). There are some plywoods, like some of the columbia forest products cherry ply and other A on both sides type of plywood that have a softwood core in only a couple of layers, and they are stable but easy to plane and don't have much glue.

If one can resaw, it's more interesting to laminate boards to make thin panels (gluing them on edge), but it's some work. Good excuse to use a plane shooting a long edge like we were talking about in another thread, though, and no finish issues. Good practice for making really inexpensive drawer bottoms out of cheap white wood, too.

[Jim Koepke]

My use of plywood was almost non-existent until recently. The Orange Borg had a good sized piece of 1/4" birch in the cull bin. I have used it for drawer bottoms and templates. I will use plywood in some places, but not very often.


I am especially interested in neander methods for gluing up panels. I know the guys on the power tool side would use a Domino to line up the pieces and then run them through a planer. Is simple edge gluing and flattening the preferred method? Does anyone use their plow plane to make tongues and grooves on 3/4" & smaller board edges for glue ups?

I have used dowels on some projects and tongue and groove on others. The T&G was done using a Stanley 45. The thing to remember with T&G is it reduces the width of the two pieces by the amount of tongue cut. It is also good in panels that do not need gluing thus allowing for movement. Of course when the finished pieces are part of the side or top, they do need to be glued.

My current project is a tea cabinet for the LOML. The back is made of resawn pieces of scrap that are ship lapped. They will not be glued together.

For bigger panels I use cauls that have a layer of packing tape to keep glue from sticking. Cauls should have a very slight camber. Kind of a reverse sprung joint effect. Some of my projects have used glued up panels of pine to make cabinets for our laundry room and deep shelves in our computer room.

jtk

[David Weaver]

I am especially interested in neander methods for gluing up panels. I know the guys on the power tool side would use a Domino to line up the pieces and then run them through a planer. Is simple edge gluing and flattening the preferred method? Does anyone use their plow plane to make tongues and grooves on 3/4" & smaller board edges for glue ups?

I have used T&G (from a stanley 49) in the back of a cabinet to make sure that there is room for expansion and to ensure there is no light transmission back to front. Never glued it, though. T&G is one of those joints that's nice when floating or nailed together, but a lot of the planes won't give you a laser joint on all sides of the wood to glue invisibly, at least not without fiddling, and cutting T&G by hand is enough work as it is.

For things like drawer bottoms and solid panels (that are thin), just glue edge joints.

[Steve Voigt]

I have read posts and even books, Jim Tolpin's New Traditional Woodworker for instance, in which the authors have stated they never use plywood.


Really, he says that? That's pretty interesting, because I have some older books by him where pretty much every project of his own design is plywood, biscuits, and router jigs. I wonder when his conversion took place? I'm sure it's just luck that it coincided with the growing popularity of hand tools and hand woodworking methods.

[Sean Hughto]

By the way, plywood has been in the US since 1865.

[Judson Green]

Plywood is mostly absent in my shop and projects. I do use it for shop projects/jigs and such. For glueing up larger panels I match plane and join usually without any biscuits but I'm currently working on a table top and using biscuits to join the boards, really only for alignment.

[Judson Green]

By the way, plywood has been in the US since 1865.

IDK about its use in the US but doesn't it go back to the Egyptians?

[Frederick Skelly]

Plywood has its uses. I use it often for shop furniture like my tablesaw stand. I dont work it with hand tools because it seems to require me to sharpen more often. For "nice stuff", I glue up solid wood to the width I need. No biscuits or anything - just edge joints as others have already discussed. But even on nice stuff, Ive used quality 1/4" plywood for backs.

[Brian Holcombe]

I have no problem with plywood, it works better for me to have a solid back on certain projects like bookcases. I also used it as a substrate on my leather desk. I always use good quality veneer core baltic birch.

I only use it in situations where I will not have to join plywood-plywood edges.

[Chris Friesen]

I've made a fair bit of stuff from construction lumber. It helps to let it dry as much as you can beforehand, and be aware that as a softwood it can be more difficult to work (since it crushes/dents easily) and won't be as strong as hardwood.

For shop stuff I've got no problem using plywood, usually shop grade. For stuff that requires tighter tolerences I'll use baltic birch. I even use MDF in my shop--I made a rolling base with full-extension drawers for my bench-mount drill press out of 3/4" MDF and it's held together just fine. For sheet goods I'll use dado/rabbet joints, biscuit joints, even butt joints, sometimes judiciously reinforced with screws.

I don't like using plywood as the show surface in furniture projects where it'll receive rough use (tops for tables, buffets, etc.). It's a good choice for glued-in drawer bottoms and door panels, and fine for lighter-use areas. The downside is that it's all common dimensions and therefore it looks like plywood. With solid wood you can make it whatever dimensions look right.

You don't mention other sheet goods, but MDF/MDO/HDO are good choices for veneer substrate since they're dead flat.

[Jim Matthews]

I use plywood in rooms that have running water.

Our kitchens, bath and mudroom all have plywood pieces
that I have made. A decent circular saw and sharp chisel
will yield quality half rabbet joints.

Is it my favorite material to use?
Hardly.

Can fine furniture be made with plywood?
Judge for yourself...


301583

[ian maybury]

I enjoy plywood, have no ideological hang ups about it, and have used quite a bit over the years on jobs needing the properties it delivers. The very large BUT over here (i'm not in the US - although it seem you guys are facing similar trends) is that it's here sold almost entirely for construction use - and house builders are driven mostly by cost.

The quality has progressively worsened (the big importers buy from the East) and is so bad now that even supposedly premium WBP (waterproof), marine and birch ply versions are a right PIA for anything requiring accuracy. Internal gaps and overlaps in the veneer, leading to built in stresses and thickness variations (bends when cut into strips if not already warped as supplied), mush internal veneers leading to poor physical properties/floppiness/not properly stiff any more) and not much better on the surface. Surface finish is anyway often very poor - rough and quite hairy. Misleading labelling is another issue - it's common to see a CE stamp which actually on its own means nothing, and most is unmarked or nearly so. (pseudo brand stamps that are probably designed to eliminate traceability while appearing like they are a brand)

It's almost got so that it's necessary to go for one of the specialist high end brands, and to make sure what you buy is to a defined standard to get something usable - maybe Apple Ply or Finn Ply. Which is expensive, and generally not an option here except in very stock grades unless ordering a bale at a time. You guys seem to do better in the US in areas where there is a decent demand for cabinet grade materials.

All that aside ply is great for many sorts of jobs - especially building jigs and fixtures and the like. MDF isn't much different - the cheap grades are now almost like cardboard and the better grades getting to be quite a lot more expensive.

The biggest practical issue that i run into apart from the above is that the poorer quality stuff doesn't take detail very well (e.g. machining on lock mitres for corner joints can be iffy with the pulpy internal veneers and poor gluing - chunks can drop out, or be so weak as to be of little use if cross grain), and the skin is very prone to chipping/splintering on cross grain cuts.

The glue as the others is very hard on edge tools. It'll almost immediately blunt a carbon steel edge (your typical hand tool), and jointing the laminated edge will leave more or less immediately nick even a high speed steel blade. Carbide as in a router cutter or table saw blade tolerates it pretty well...

[Mike Holbrook]

It sounds like the majority of responders have little fear of edge glueing boards to make surfaces for cabinets, bookcases, table tops, furniture...I needed to hear that even though I do read about posters here doing it regularly. I am a little surprised to find that so many do so much with edge glued boards. I can say that the edge gluing I have done so far has not been the issue I thought it might. I see lots of commercially glued wood that has delaminated. The butcher block counter in my kitchen would be an example. Unfortunately many contractors will cut as many cost saving corners as they can.

I have noticed the decreasing quality of plywoods. As mentioned above, cost cutting housing contractors often seem to drive this decline. I bought 10 sheets of depot sale "hardwood" plywood several years ago. Unfortunately the actual wood veneer is so soft & poor in quality, I am having a hard time finding places to use it.

I believe southern yellow pine and poplar are popular woods that are not to expensive. Some of the home stores even carry clear yellow pine that seems to be relatively nice wood for projects. I just bought some that I plan to use to glue up for part of a work surface. I have a few other woods drying for a wokrbench too.

[Brian Holcombe]

Butcher block (end grain Up) does not have a lot of long grain contact. I've also seen it fail because it was mounted in a way that did not allow for movement.

I glued up a piece of 3/8 as a test a long while back and then attempted to snap it at the glue line before it completely cured. It did not fail on the glue line, because often the glue line (long grain to long grain) is stronger than the surrounding material.

[Curt Putnam]

Edge gluing boards into panels just takes a little learning ... I still have a largeish stash of plywood from when I was making store display fixtures. It's great stuff when used for the right application but if I have my druthers I will use solid wood from henceforth forever. The nice thing about using ply for door panels is that you can glue it in, which makes for a much more rigid structure.

Just a couple points to remember about edge gluing. If you subscribe to the theory (proven facts) that modern glue is stronger than the wood, then anything you do to the edge, other than planing it flat and square, will weaken the joint. I've come to the point where I now glue up flattened, but otherwise rough stock and then either run it through the planer if narrow enough to fit or get out the fore's and jointers. I've not yet had the need to flatten a panel wider than 24", thank goodness. Cauls are your friend when it comes to panel glue-ups; make some and use them.

All before is IMO and be sure that YMWV.

[Jim Matthews]

Just a couple points to remember about edge gluing. If you subscribe to the theory (proven facts) that modern glue is stronger than the wood, then anything you do to the edge, other than planing it flat and square, will weaken the joint.

You mean long grain to long grain joints?
Then I concur.

If you're gluing long grain to other grain faces,
I recommend some kind of mechanical joint.

[Pat Barry]

Can fine furniture be made with plywood?
Judge for yourself...


301583
That ain't no plywood I've ever seen

[Judson Green]

Some of the home stores even carry clear yellow pine that seems to be relatively nice wood for projects.


If you can find a lumber yard (I've even had some good luck browsing CL) that sells retail you'd get much more bang for your buck. The Borg's are very pricy on select pine, red oak, maple and popular. However if you look they do have some nice boards in the 1-common 1× isle, and I've built furniture (painted) out of construction lumber.

[Mike Holbrook]

I believe cauls can be just about any scrap of wood used when clamping. In relation to edge gluing, I think other posters are using cauls to hold the tops of glued boards in line, along the opposite plain the clamps would normally work? I imagine cauls could be made that would help with just about any clamping application though?

I think I made a post asking about Bowclamps, which are just precisely manufactured cauls that have a groove made to accept an F style clamp. One side of the Bowclamps is manufactured with CNC machines to achieve the "perfect" arch for evenly spreading applied pressure to an entire surface. I suppose the question is whether or not the manufactured Bowclamps derive any significant advantage out of the quality wood and precise dimensions?

Bowclamps come in three sizes 24", 36" and 48". I suspect making ones own cauls allows one to come up with greater variety using less expensive scrap or purchased wood? I would be very interested to hear/see details concerning how various posters make and use their variety of cauls?

[Mike Holbrook]

Judson,

I use to have a couple saw mills relatively close but the expanding Atlanta suburbs have driven them away. I have been driving to a lumber yard, Peach State Lumber to buy wood. They will run wood, bought from them, through their planer for a very reasonable price. Lately it seems like their prices have been creeping up as they appear to be specializing in providing professional cabinet makers etc. with raw wood. I was quoted $2.75 board ft. for clear yellow pine and $3.50-$4.50 for rustic white oak a day or two ago. I asked about culls, #2 wood. I was told that they did not have any at the moment and I would have to drive out there on any given day to see what might be available.

I suspect they only give better pricing to higher volume buyers who do business with them regularly. I probably need to look around for a closer provider who is not quite so volume oriented.

[Brian Holcombe]

If I'm working through a project of a size where I do not want to dimension things myself I will joint them and bring for processing. Planing without jointing can be ok on a project where the boards can be manipulated to become flat, but it's better preceded by jointing.

It's best if you can work with a place that does not mind jointing before planing to thickness.

[Mike Holbrook]

Brian,
The kitchen counter I was talking about is not "true" butcher block. The grain runs side to side not up & down on the boards. Apparently the manufacturer just did not take the time to do the glue job well, a seam came unglued at installation and a couple more have come loose since. I only mentioned it because it added a little to my misgivings about edge glueing.

The lumber I have been buying from Peach State usually has one good (jointed) edge, sometimes it even has a planed surface or two. In the past if any lumber I wanted did not have at least one jointed edge and both surfaces planed, I have had it done before I loaded it. Now that I have a Steel City planer I may try doing it myself.

I have made the mistake of planing before jointing, which can be wasted time or even detrimental which I believe is your point. Lately I try to joint first, unless there is some obvious major surface issue. My more recent work has been rough cabinets and a mobile cart for the planer. I have just been hitting the construction grade lumber with a hand plane on any edges or surfaces that might throw my work significantly out of square. My next projects will call for more precision and nicer materials.

[Mike Henderson]

I believe cauls can be just about any scrap of wood used when clamping. In relation to edge gluing, I think other posters are using cauls to hold the tops of glued boards in line, along the opposite plain the clamps would normally work? I imagine cauls could be made that would help with just about any clamping application though?

I think I made a post asking about Bowclamps, which are just precisely manufactured cauls that have a groove made to accept an F style clamp. One side of the Bowclamps is manufactured with CNC machines to achieve the "perfect" arch for evenly spreading applied pressure to an entire surface. I suppose the question is whether or not the manufactured Bowclamps derive any significant advantage out of the quality wood and precise dimensions?

Bowclamps come in three sizes 24", 36" and 48". I suspect making ones own cauls allows one to come up with greater variety using less expensive scrap or purchased wood? I would be very interested to hear/see details concerning how various posters make and use their variety of cauls?

A problem with any caul is that the curve on the caul needs to take into account the bending characteristics of the wood. And each piece of wood is going to be different. This problem is only real if you want to get the absolute same amount of pressure across the area being clamped with the caul. In the real world, if the curve is not perfect for the wood, you're still going to get a good clamp.

I have a tutorial (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/Cauls.htm)on my web site on making cauls. One of the things I do in the tutorial is test the cauls after you make them by putting pieces of paper between them and see if you can pull the paper out. This will show that there is pressure all along the caul, but will not indicate that it is the same pressure at all points.

Others have posted techniques for making cauls where you bend the caul wood, then joint it flat while it's bent. This will give you a caul with essentially even pressure all along the caul. I don't remember the technique, but I know some ideas were posted in a thread on SawMill Creek.

If a Bowclamp is cut using a CNC machine, it will likely not produce even pressure along the caul because each piece of wood is different. But it will be close enough to do the job.

Cauls are pretty easy to make and can be made from kiln dried 2 by 4's that you can buy for a couple of dollars each.

And to stick with the main subject of this thread. I use good Baltic birch as a substrate for veneer work occasionally - when MDF will not work as the substrate for one reason or another.

Mike

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks for the link Mike. I will add making a few cauls to my projects list. I was thinking about doing something similar with hardwood sized more like the Bowclamps. I may have a few pieces left over after I saw up the wood I bought to make a bench. Maybe a few from 2x4s as well, if I can find some decent ones. I have had a hard time finding anything decent in recent months.

I am working on a plan for a top to go on my Noden Adjust A Bench (AAB) base that will use plywood, MDF and glued up clear yellow pine. I want a vise and a replaceable/flippable top on the AAB. Then I will have something to build my Roubo/20th Century bench on.