Lost in the stones - japanese stones

[Brian Holcombe]

Sorry to start another sharpening related question but I need some practical advice.

my current setup is;

two diamond plates for flattening
800, 1000 and 6000 sun tiger japanese stones. The 800 and 1000 work well, can ask for much more from them.

the 6000 is a stone I sort of put up with, so I would like to replace it.

i'm strongly considering a 3,000 and 10,000 set of Choseras or a couple of sigma stones such as the 13,000 and a rougher stone.

i appreciate any suggestions.

[Steve Friedman]

The 10,000 is an amazing stone, but you may need something finer than a 1,000 to go with it. With the favorable exchange rate, I would get the 3-stone set and sell the 1000 if you don't need it.

I've only used Sigma and Shapton, so can't comment on the Choseras.

Steve

[David Weaver]

naniwa snow white, dump whatever the 6k stone is if you don't like it

If you get the snow white, tools from japan is the place to go because of the favorable exchange rate right now. It's low $80s. If you buy stateside, I believe CKTG wants $140 for the same stone.

It's 95% of what the chosera 10k is, which is a lovely stone itself, but at its price, I would only buy it used and at a significant discount from new.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks fellas! David, I'm going to get the Snow White.

[David Weaver]

Good choice. If you want something finer, put some graded compound on MDF.

The snow white is a really good stone, and fast.

[Brian Holcombe]

Nice, that is exactly what I need.

Loading up on this stuff while the exchange rate is favorable.

[David Wong]

I use both the naniwa 8K snow white, and the sigma 13K. Both are very nice stones with great feeling for sharpening by hand. Both require the surfaces be well wet to perform, otherwise I find they load up easily when sharpening japanese blades. I let water sit on the surface of the stone a couple of minute or so before use. The sigma 13K will definitely create a sharper edge than the snow white for me. An aesthetic downside is that the sigma lessens the contrast between the hard and soft steel layers. I do not strop, so I cannot compare the edge to using green compound. The snow white is a quite aggressive stone, and I sometimes go from a shapton 2K to the Snow White. Though most often I use a hard Aoto before the snow white.

I have an early naniwa snow white that developed crazing cracks over all surfaces shortly after I started using it. I have not heard of crazing occurring on more recent versions of the stone.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks David Wong. I appreciate the insights.

I do not strop either, for plane blades I like a precise bevel so I generally do not do anything to encourage it not to be. I may start stopping for chisels, especially paring chisels for maintainence between sharpening a right in the workshop.

My sharpening station is otherwise known as a kitchen, so I like to keep the sharpening down to once a day. Sometimes hard to do when working with the more brutal woods.

[David Weaver]

For the level of stones we're talking about, stropping is more of an assurance that you've worked to the edge. If you have a smooth leather strop that's oiled, if you didn't and there is any damage to an edge, it will mark the strop.

When I sharpen with oilstones, there is always a wire edge hanging on. A couple of flips back and forth and it stops marking the strop and I know its gone. For japanese natural stones, no such wire edge forms, and the strop is just a check - but the first pull across it usually leaves a dark smooth line with no markings except from the sharp corners of a chisel or iron (this is a strop with a wood backing).

Doing this does make initial sharpness a little better, even with the japanese stones, though. I doubt it makes much difference in actual use like it does with oilstones (that have enough stuff hanging on the edge that leaving it on would probably lead to a damaged edge if you just let work remove it).

you can always add the SP13k later, it's definitely the finest edge you'll get for the price in stones....maybe aside from jasper (and it's equivalent to jasper in fineness, anyway), which has to be used completely differently.

The snow white will make the jump from 1k in almost anything, but the 13k will not. the price of the 13k is also very favorable due to the exchange and will probably stay that way.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks David. That explains why there is practically no mention of strops in anything that explains sharpening japanese tools with waterstones.

The 13k is not so offensively priced like the chosera 10k, so I may pick one up at some point just to appease my curiosity. Don't need it for the moment, as I want to make the leap from 1k to finish stone during most work.

[David Weaver]

the snow white and the chosera 10k is not much different. Cho 10k fits between the two stones we're talking about, and it's a nice stone, but I'm not that convinced by naniwa's claim that it's so expensive to produce. Maybe it is and there's something I don't know about it, but there are plenty of inexpensive magnesia stones, so who knows....

My understanding of the chosera line is that it's popular in knife shops, and knife shops have stuff priced to the moon. In my opinion, it's just a different market segment.

IIRC, the chosera is somewhere around 1.5 microns in particle size (but a very strong cutter), the snow white is half a micron or so more (also a very strong cutter), and the SP 13K is 0.73 microns (gok 20 and shapton 30k are 0.5).

One of the other reasons japanese don't talk about stropping much (which is something they definitely do do with razors is that carbon steel that is as plain as white #2 does not hold a wire edge very well and doesn't really need it as you go higher into hardness. The ability of a bare strop to work an edge also isn't as good once you get past a certain hardness point around 60 or low 60s. With more middle of the road stuff, you can literally get a wire edge off and go from a scraggy edge to a smooth one. If you have scraggy on something 64/65 hardness, it's just going to stay there and not move back and forth much for a strop).

Anyway, the SP 13k leaves a finer edge than the chosera, but it's not as fast as the cho or snow white. They're all good stones, it's "no free lunch" territory, despite the claims by many stone makers (especially some of the house stuff on CKTG) about stones being super fine and super fast relative to others. That's just marketing.

[Brian Holcombe]

Exactly, at 3x or more it makes you wonder.

Makes perfect sense on the stopping part, I remember previously ( another stones thread) that you mentioned the strop to be of little use after a certain level of Polish was obtained with stones. Which makes perfect sense.

After I finally get it together in the way of stones I think I'm going to need to move to straight razors as well.

[Mike Allen1010]

I have the three stones set from Stu (I think the brand is Sigma?) and I have been very pleased with the performance. For me the Atoma abrasive plate is perhaps my most valuable piece of kit.

The only issue for me is with the 13K stone is more prone to "digging in" and gouging the stone surface, particularly when freehand sharpening narrow chisels (which could very well be largely result of my poor technique). My 13K is just about used up and I'm thinking about what would be an appropriate replacement. I would be perfectly happy just getting another of these, but was wondering if there might be another alternative that could provide the same performance (speed and quality of final polished edge) with less risk of gouging?

Based on some comments here in the cave, I was particularly wondering about "spyderco" (sic) stones – I think George may have mentioned them (along with others – Harold?). I really don't know anything about them but just got a general impression they might fit my needs.

I would welcome any advice/suggestions from the stone experts here for that final polishing stone. My primary interest is getting the sharpest edge I can, and I'm less interested in speed.

My shop is in my garage and there's usually a puddle under the sharpening station from all the water I spill with the stones. I don't know how folks working in a wooden floor shop avoid problems with all the water.

I've recently begun using a couple straps (MDF and oiled leather), based largely on David's recommendations. I seem to get a good result with carving tools, particularly when using a really light touch. For plane blades and chisels, I'm not really sure if I am improving or degrading sharpness of the edge with the strops.

All the best, Mike

[David Weaver]

If you're following the 13k with a strop, then there's not really anywhere for the edge to go with chisels or plane irons - the 13k is near maxed-out territory.

Green chrome strop is a good thing to use to follow something that leaves a wire edge or that leaves an edge a little bit coarse (and good for carving tools in general to step them up a notch).

The spyderco is an entirely different animal from a waterstone, but one that I think is worth trying if you want something that you can really dig in to. It doesn't cut nearly as fast as a friable waterstone.

The shapton is somewhere between (the pro cream), but you can gouge it on a push if you're not careful. I can push sharpen turning tools on one, but you can't be rough like you can be with oilstones, diamond hones or spydercos.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I've decided to sell m 10K Gokumyo if anyone is interested. (it's in the classifieds)


I agree with David about marketing... man that took me a while to understand, and by a while I mean trying every stone I can get my hands on. bottom line it's about finding the stones that work for you the way you want and then also learning how to work with them. I know some very capable fine woodworking guys who still use King stones.

[Fidel Fernandez]

I have a little question about all this.
I understand the difference between stones in the 8K range.
My question is when do you need to go to 10K or 13K? Do you really need to go there if you are not carving?
What would I miss in my normal use of japanese chisels, western chisels (not expensive ones), western planes (old and new) and a potential japanese plane if I don't have the 13K stone.

[David Weaver]

Narrow differences are useful for working a full bevel (like japanese tools) and for sharpening knives for show where you have a bevel that you want to look perfect over the entire surface, and not just at the edge.

You're not missing anything if you don't have both, it'll never really affect your work. Sharpness of 0.73 micron above sharpness at 1.5 micron or so is a matter of pleasure for the user.

[Brian Holcombe]

I've decided to sell m 10K Gokumyo if anyone is interested. (it's in the classifieds)


I agree with David about marketing... man that took me a while to understand, and by a while I mean trying every stone I can get my hands on. bottom line it's about finding the stones that work for you the way you want and then also learning how to work with them. I know some very capable fine woodworking guys who still use King stones.


After double checking My 6k is actually made by King. Only my 800 and 1000 are sun tiger.

I've had these things for 15~ years and have been using them for that long. Not until the past few years have I really been using them to the extent that allowed me to figure out what I like or don't like about them.

[Brian Holcombe]

Ordered my Snow White stone. I actually decided to go for the 13k also, but the remaining stock was sold out, this must have been a very convincing thread, lol. I'll pick one up when I again feel the itch.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

You should buy as much from Japan as you can before the whole place gets destroyed. See article: http://phys.org/news/2014-10-colossal-volcanic-eruption-japan.html

[Fidel Fernandez]

Ordered my Snow White stone. I actually decided to go for the 13k also, but the remaining stock was sold out, this must have been a very convincing thread, lol. I'll pick one up when I again feel the itch.

Lee Valley has the 13K, not at the Tools from Japan price.

[Matthew N. Masail]

After double checking My 6k is actually made by King. Only my 800 and 1000 are sun tiger.

I've had these things for 15~ years and have been using them for that long. Not until the past few years have I really been using them to the extent that allowed me to figure out what I like or don't like about them.

Thats a good point. I used my 1000\4000 king combo until it good too thin and cracked, then started the whole rabbit hole fall when I bought new stones and started noticing the difference in how the stones work and how I want them too. I think your desire is perfectly valid, and finding the right set-up for you is not only bliss but completely functional. my point was exactly that, some people like the kings, and since it works for them, it a good set-up. now they might get all messed up when they discover other stones, but using king has not hurt their woodworking that's for sure.
Therefore, discussing of if X stone is better than X stone can be misleading. I've tried maybe about 2 dozen stones, many of the recommended ones here were not at all what I wanted even though on "forum paper" they were great. you might hate the snow-white, you might love it (I think you'll love if it's anything like my 3k chosera). If you haven't yet bought a 1k stone, I can highly recommend a 1k shapton. I hve a chosera 800, a 1k shapton and a eze-lap diamond plate on my sharpening bench right now, the cho and shapton are VERY similar, the shapton being more ceramic and aggressive feeling and the cho being more subdued and creamy, but they cut about the same speed and leave similar finish. the cho seems like it will stay flat a little better, but it costs more. the eze-lap kicks a## and my cho lives and a drawer.

I did not like the 13k sigma for a few reasons, but it will "max out" your edge and the blade will cut like a dream. if you strop it's not work the bother IMCO.

[David Weaver]

The king is a workable stone, but it's really not very good per-se at anything. It doesn't cut very fast, and it doesn't produce a very good edge. I'd slurry it in a heavy slurry (as in not much water in the slurry) to try to get a little more cut rate out of it.

The king 800 and 6000 were the very first stones I ever had, and a friend had the 8000 and now I have one, too, as a novelty, but I really like pretty much every other similar priced stone I've tried (kitayama, SP, Shapton, Nani Snow White) much better than the king 6k. You never really know who a stone like that is designed for, it may have other characteristics that make it preferable to a knife sharpener or something, I don't know.

It's not like you can't do good work with it, it's just sort of unimpressive if you're treating yourself when you sharpen.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thats a good point. I used my 1000\4000 king combo until it good too thin and cracked, then started the whole rabbit hole fall when I bought new stones and started noticing the difference in how the stones work and how I want them too. I think your desire is perfectly valid, and finding the right set-up for you is not only bliss but completely functional. my point was exactly that, some people like the kings, and since it works for them, it a good set-up. now they might get all messed up when they discover other stones, but using king has not hurt their woodworking that's for sure.
Therefore, discussing of if X stone is better than X stone can be misleading. I've tried maybe about 2 dozen stones, many of the recommended ones here were not at all what I wanted even though on "forum paper" they were great. you might hate the snow-white, you might love it (I think you'll love if it's anything like my 3k chosera). If you haven't yet bought a 1k stone, I can highly recommend a 1k shapton. I hve a chosera 800, a 1k shapton and a eze-lap diamond plate on my sharpening bench right now, the cho and shapton are VERY similar, the shapton being more ceramic and aggressive feeling and the cho being more subdued and creamy, but they cut about the same speed and leave similar finish. the cho seems like it will stay flat a little better, but it costs more. the eze-lap kicks a## and my cho lives and a drawer.

I did not like the 13k sigma for a few reasons, but it will "max out" your edge and the blade will cut like a dream. if you strop it's not work the bother IMCO.


Since the Sigma's are out of stock at TFJ I'll just wait. I appreciate that they are at LV, but I am not in a hurry to add it to the rotation, though I do want to give it a try at some point.

Exactly, and for me it's been an interesting learning experience. Using stones everyday while working really helps you figure out a lot about them. Mostly flattening backs, in fact. Doing so for a few years allows enough frustration that a good change will be noticeable.

My 1k doesnt really drive me crazy (works quite well infact) so I dont think I will replace it.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I eventually settled on stones that don't need soaking, and I use a eze-lap as a 1k partly because it needs no maintenance. so I only have 1 stone to care for and that is my honing stone of choice. since I use a hard stone and free hand relatively evenly when using them, I only flatten a stone once in a while. it makes all the difference to me compared to taking stones in and out of water and dealing with stone slurry and such. I wouldn't want to live with a 1k king again, but you like it (-: the best 1k soaker I've ever used was surprisingly the 2k beaster, it's a beast and you can easily jump to a 8k from it.


For Flattening backs I'll use a 1.2k sigma power in the kitchen where I have running water, and if need be I'll use sandpaper on MDF first, it's not an everyday thing so I don't need my everyday setup to work that way.

[Matthew N. Masail]

The king is a workable stone, but it's really not very good per-se at anything. It doesn't cut very fast, and it doesn't produce a very good edge. I'd slurry it in a heavy slurry (as in not much water in the slurry) to try to get a little more cut rate out of it.

The king 800 and 6000 were the very first stones I ever had, and a friend had the 8000 and now I have one, too, as a novelty, but I really like pretty much every other similar priced stone I've tried (kitayama, SP, Shapton, Nani Snow White) much better than the king 6k. You never really know who a stone like that is designed for, it may have other characteristics that make it preferable to a knife sharpener or something, I don't know.

It's not like you can't do good work with it, it's just sort of unimpressive if you're treating yourself when you sharpen.

I think your right that some stones are designed for certain uses. the 1.2 sigma only really made sense to me when I sharpened a stainless knife with it, turns out sigma power are knife makers, and most of their stuff is stainless\modern steels.


The 8k king gives a really good edge, but for the price of a 3k chosera it's not very competitive. I got to try the 1k and 8k shaptons. I think the snow white is the only stone I'm still curios about.

[David Weaver]

No reason to get it if you have the 8k shapton. It makes a similar edge quality and is a little more friable (and bigger and thicker).

The bester 1k and 1200 are the ones that stick out to me as being miles different. The 1k is friable, and I just don't like it much for tools. I think knife people like stones that are a little softer. It's not like they would've made those two the way they are by accident because they've been selling them for eons.

I remember seen advertisement literature saying that the king 8K uses natural stone powder in it. I find that confusing. Natural stone powder will be dominated by al-ox particles, but maybe that was an attempt with a very early synthetic stone to get people to transition from a natural stone. The only stone I have ever seen that can come close to synthetic stones in speed is okudo suita, but okudo suita is expensive and some of them are fine and hard and some of them are softer (I just note them because they are the only natural stone I have ever seen that will make black swarf with high speed steel and sharpen it like a synthetic to a very good edge with no wire edge).

(I am NOT suggesting people should go looking for an okudo suita finish stone)

[Matthew N. Masail]

I would not suggest spending a fortune on stones either. I don't own the 8k shapton or the 1k, they belong to a friend, but I don't feel like I need an 8k, I'm just curios about the SW.
my 3k chosera + strop gives an edge that will do everything just as well or better than the shapton 8k. I just ordered a 4k naniwa Hayabusa though, I'm hoping it will be just a little finer and polish more than the cho3k, because I find stronger cutting stones much easier and faster to use for honing, especially when they polish and cut very finely. I still go by the 2 stone only rule, and using the honing stone to flip over the burr insures I have worked all the way to the edge. a super fine stone can't really do that for you.

[Brian Holcombe]

David and Co,

thanks is for the rec on the Snow White, it is superb. Really cuts nicely without clogging.

[Brian Holcombe]

Gentlemen,

Just wanted to say thanks for the help on this, the snow white is fantastic. I did not know what I was missing, but the results are fantastic. I have reground an polished blades as I'm going to give this stone a fresh start on my blades, the results have been fantastic.

I could use my jointer as a finish plane, even with a thick cut the results are super smooth cuts.

[paul cottingham]

Just curious, I finish on LV's 8000 King stone (I know, I know.) Will the Sigma 13000 improve my edge significantly? Can anyone recommend a stone to finish on other than those? I grind and hone blades with trizact belts on a 42" belt grinder, and am looking for a good finishing stone. I get good edges now, but we can always improve, right?
Sorry for the hijack.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I have a full set of DMT diamond stones from course to extra fine and everything between, and a DMT flattening stone. I use diamonds mainly for setting bevels and flattening backs, but always finish with waterstones. I started with Nortons, then moved to Shapton glass 1000, 4000, 8000, 16000. I have a Chosera 400 coming from Japan and plan to gradually move to the Choseras in similar to what I have in the Shaptons. The Shaptons are great, but I like the slurry you get with Chosera.

I also have have a Tormek with standard and waterstone wheels. I love it, but am too busy to start grinding all my blades to hollow grind. I do love the few that are. I mainly use the Tormek for knives and planer blades right now. Too fussy to set up for hand plane blades.

wait- what was the question? Ahh yes-

I think you are on the right track with Chosera.

[Jonathan Martell]

What's a good brand for waterstones, and a reasonable price?

[Matthew N. Masail]

Gentlemen,

Just wanted to say thanks for the help on this, the snow white is fantastic. I did not know what I was missing, but the results are fantastic. I have reground an polished blades as I'm going to give this stone a fresh start on my blades, the results have been fantastic.

I could use my jointer as a finish plane, even with a thick cut the results are super smooth cuts.

Glad to hear Brian! the cho 3k makes a good edge so I imagin a 8k snow white (which is pretty much a 8k chosera) makes a great one.

[Brian Holcombe]

Spent a few hours last night grinding fresh edges on my chisels then working them over with the 8k....whoa,

[Fidel Fernandez]

I agree with this nice stone.

I bought it because this thread. There is only one thing that I don't like and it is that I knew about this too late and I had spent money in other stones.

I use it also for my wife knives. She used to compliment the edge after I sharpen the knives. Now she is afraid, the edge is super sharp. She says, "not too sharp, please!".

It is a great stone.

[Brian Holcombe]

Cool! She will get used to it. My wife took some breaking in on razor sharp kitchen knives and now I believe she prefers it. I draw the knife through meat/food rather than chop and I've taught her to do the same.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

The most dangerous knife is a dull one.

[Steve Voigt]

The most dangerous wife is a dull one.

There, I fixed that typo for you. :D