Old wood n metal side rebates planes and very intriguing saw query

[Brian Ashton]

Saw one in a junk store today. It was a double side rebate plane, the body was wood and the plate metal. It had two blades, secured with wedges. Every once in while I see one crop up somewhere but can't find any at the moment. Anyone know if they're worth anything?

I also found a cross cut saw where the medallion said queen victoria 1867. So I'm guessing the saw was produced to commemorate her. I've never heard nor seen one before... Anyone ever heard of one before and any idea whether they're of any value?

I didnt take pictures, thought that was a bit too much in the middle of the junk shop...

[Jim Koepke]

I didnt take pictures, thought that was a bit too much in the middle of the junk shop...

Most likely the proprietor wouldn't mind if you said you wanted someone to see the pictures to see if they were interested.

Surely we would all be interested in looking...

jtk

[Brian Ashton]

Here's the little plane.


Went by again today and grabbed it, along with the smallest brace I've ever come across. The irony in it is, it was a shop that was on the expensive side, and I expected the lady to demand a fairly high price for the plane of around at least 40, and maybe 10 for the brace and a few bob for the 9 bits. She looked at the brace and said 20 - they're real collectable ya know, the 9 bits which were nothing special and an incomplete set she wanted 30. Then she looked the little plane up n down and and gave a uninterested 10. So there you go she got their relative values completely backwards. So I left with a pretty good deal of 10 for the plane. Also, it's not the first time I've dug down to the bottom of a box of junk tools and found a little nugget. The tools piled on top of this were absolute junk. A month or so same thing happened, happened to pass by an antique store and thought I'd have a look… Found a box of junk tools tucked away in the back, just about to turn and go and noticed it was sitting on another box. Pulled off the top box and there I found a half set of hollows and rounds, 1 - 17, and a full set of side bead planes 1/8 - 1 inch, all by the same maker and in perfect condition. Took them up to the counter and ended up paying about $6 each for 26 planes.


The little dots are dust mixed with water and the body appears to be mahogany, and the plate is steel. Very little rust or dings. It's definitely a well made plane. It looks like the front part of the plate is intended to be removed to nose into corners and where it joins the back plate is fitted very well. The metal work is done so well I'm wondering if at some time in the past the metal parts were sold as a kit, leaving the joiner to make the body - like so many of the chariot planes on the market these days.


I skipped on the saw, handle was in good shape but far too much rust on the plate - a shame really

[David Weaver]

that's an interesting take on a side rabbet plane. I've never seen one like it before. Someone liked it so much they completely spent the iron - but that's easy enough to fix.

[Jim Koepke]

I have seen a side rabbet similar to that, just do not recall where. When you get it going you will see why they are so useful to have.


Pulled off the top box and there I found a half set of hollows and rounds, 1 - 17, and a full set of side bead planes 1/8 - 1 inch, all by the same maker and in perfect condition. Took them up to the counter and ended up paying about $6 each for 26 planes.

A half set of the odd sizes at $6 each? Now that really deserves a great big YOU SUCK!.

One of the things I am hoping to save toward is a set of hollows and rounds. Currently there are about 6 in my accumulation a couple of the H&Rs are close to the same size. They get a fair amount of use for different projects. Wish I had bought more when I could find them for $10 or less apiece.

Now I seldom see them and if the do show up they are the sizes already in the shop or missing all but the mangled body for a high price.

jtk

[george wilson]

I don't think the irons are spent. I had another similar one,never used,with irons like that.

[Brian Ashton]

I have seen a side rabbet similar to that, just do not recall where. When you get it going you will see why they are so useful to have.



A half set of the odd sizes at $6 each? Now that really deserves a great big YOU SUCK!.

One of the things I am hoping to save toward is a set of hollows and rounds. Currently there are about 6 in my accumulation a couple of the H&Rs are close to the same size. They get a fair amount of use for different projects. Wish I had bought more when I could find them for $10 or less apiece.

Now I seldom see them and if the do show up they are the sizes already in the shop or missing all but the mangled body for a high price.

jtk



When I first got here I'd agree it was a great score and it sucked for anyone that missed out. But now, I've come to the realisation that the UK is awash with old moulding planes and old tools in general and the asking prices reflect that (excluding ebay, the buy it now fishing expeditions are not worth the effort to even open the page). Car boot sales are crazy, paying more than a couple bucks for anything is too much. And it's not like they're ignorant of what they're peddling. They tell me, oh thats a Disston saw, or those are Addis carving chisels… and when you ask what they want for it they say, how's a couple pound sound, but it you take them all you can have them for a pound each… Even antique stores have better prices than ebay.

[lowell holmes]

Have any of you bought the hollows and rounds that Lee Valley sells?

[Brian Ashton]

Have any of you bought the hollows and rounds that Lee Valley sells?

Ya, I bought a set of those some years back. Used them on and off. Everyone needs to be tuned and set up, and they're not paired very well. Bit small for my hands also...

By comparison, especially with the prices I'm paying here, the western hollow and rounds are a much better investment.

[Brian Ashton]

that's an interesting take on a side rabbet plane. I've never seen one like it before. Someone liked it so much they completely spent the iron - but that's easy enough to fix.

Here's a couple pics of it disassembled. You won't be able to see it but the blades are quite complex in the that there aren't many square edges and they are exact copies of each other. The L shape is so they will fit in a narrow channels easily. As I was describing before the front plate meets the back plate perfectly. Event the wedges don't have many square edges. The more I examine it the more I think the metal parts were professionally produced.

[David Weaver]

I'd say pro made, likely. I'm confused by the irons, as george says they may not be worn but intentionally made that way. If that's the case, what were people using these planes for - to cut endgrain? insides of dados?

[David Weaver]

I've noticed what you've said about UK only sales, btw. There was a stint a couple of years ago, and I guess it still exists, where royal mail wouldn't ship anything. I saw a perfect condition full plate 4 1/2 point sorby rip saw - a beautiful saw clear and rust free with a perfect handle that was nicely made - sell for $15 in the UK by browsing the UK only site. It was a saw that I would've paid $100 for easily.

The seller said they had no choice at the time. I think royal mail will do larger items now, but they are still extremely expensive. I cannot figure out why royal mail charges so much for international shipping...it really screws businesses that ship from the UK.

Kingshott talks in his video about buying moulding planes for "a bob or two". Something you really can't do over here. You can get moulding planes for $5-$10 each over here, but that usually involves getting nothing remotely close to matching, and the stuff I see at antique stores usually is of that type (random planes), or marked way up, or both.

[Brian Ashton]

I'd say pro made, likely. I'm confused by the irons, as george says they may not be worn but intentionally made that way. If that's the case, what were people using these planes for - to cut endgrain? insides of dados?

It's a side rebate plane. So it needs to fit between the walls of a narrow channel so you can widen it. If the blades were full width they would interfere with that action. How the metal planes got around this was to use a lever cap instead of wedges. Make them with extremely low angles and bed the blades cross over each other.

[Brian Ashton]

I've noticed what you've said about UK only sales, btw. There was a stint a couple of years ago, and I guess it still exists, where royal mail wouldn't ship anything. I saw a perfect condition full plate 4 1/2 point sorby rip saw - a beautiful saw clear and rust free with a perfect handle that was nicely made - sell for $15 in the UK by browsing the UK only site. It was a saw that I would've paid $100 for easily.

The seller said they had no choice at the time. I think royal mail will do larger items now, but they are still extremely expensive. I cannot figure out why royal mail charges so much for international shipping...it really screws businesses that ship from the UK.

Kingshott talks in his video about buying moulding planes for "a bob or two". Something you really can't do over here. You can get moulding planes for $5-$10 each over here, but that usually involves getting nothing remotely close to matching, and the stuff I see at antique stores usually is of that type (random planes), or marked way up, or both.

I have a brother in law in Canada and was thinking I could buy the tools here. Fill a 1 or 2 cubic meter crate with them and he could sell them over there. The freight is $500/cubic meter no matter the weight. I could get a lot of tools in such a box like that, now I need to work out the duties and other fees and see if it could be viable. I mean, I walked into a antique store the other day and found a complete stanley 46 selling for 60 pounds ($110). They sell on ebay in North America for 200. I passed on it because I don't have a use or room for it and it's at about what it's worth here. I saw a E Preston mat cutting knife (always mis-identified as a marking knife) about a month ago on ebay here that no one was interested in. The last time I saw one of those was about 12 years ago and it went for about $125 - those things are rare. At the end there was only 2 bids and I missed out because my phone messed up and ebay wouldn't accept my bid. It went for $12. I'm seeing all sorts of tools like that all the time.

It's the same for everyone wanting to buy from the states. USPS charges like a raging bull. Canada Post still has decent rates.

[David Weaver]

I believe that exactly that strategy is what some of the US tool dealers have done. Go to the UK and buy stuff at estate auctions and then ship them back and sell them from here. I remember some collector of infills dying and having an estate sale eons ago, and one of the dealers over here went there and bought all of the infills so they could resell them for prices sky high over here. That kind of stuff really sours me on tool flippers because those auctions were open to US bidders, and a flipper has no ability to add value for a user or collector. They just snap up the supply and push up the prices.

But on workaday tools, if you can spot good tools that need little, I'd think you could fill a meter box with moulding planes, carving tools and saws and do very well. Infills have tanked, but if you can get them cheap enough, you could include those, too.

[Jim Koepke]

It's a side rebate plane. So it needs to fit between the walls of a narrow channel so you can widen it. If the blades were full width they would interfere with that action. How the metal planes got around this was to use a lever cap instead of wedges. Make them with extremely low angles and bed the blades cross over each other.

Side rebate/rabbet planes were not made to remove a lot of material.

It seems some workers in the past knew enough to hone the edge without major metal removal. Then there are others who felt it possible to sharpen a blade on a grinding wheel who could go through a blade in less than a year.

jtk

[Patrick Bernardo]

I wonder how long before Britain gets tapped out? Over the summer, I was in Sweden visiting family and nosed about in some antique stores, hoping to come across some half-forgotten set of old Bergs or something for a decent price. Nothing doing. From what I could gather, it seems to be that the demand for old Swedish blades is so high that virtually all the old iron in the hands of dealers has already fled the country. I did find some old woodies sans irons, but I wasn't interested in trying to track down replacement irons, so didn't look too closely. One of the dealers in Goteborg practically laughed at me and told me that he hadn't seen an old Swedish woodworking tool himself in years. (Apparently outside the cities one can still find people selling them though.)

[David Weaver]

Most of the eskilstuna stuff was sold to continental europe and australia, I don't think they kept much of it.