Shop construction questions

[John Pariseau]

I'm getting ready to submit a variance request to my township. The twp says I have a good case (location issue). I'm struggling with this as I don't want to screw up the request, as it will be a costly mistake.

Here is what I know:

• 20x32 is the target size
• concrete floor, radiant heat
• Southeast Michigan, 42" frost line for foundations
• Gambrel roof, with loft storage area
• Insulated
• 10-12" concrete perimeter wall

Now, I do not need to provide detailed plans to get the variance request reviewed, but I have drawn up elevations to show height, overall size. I'm struggling because I'm not yet set on construction method:

1) Metal - no
2) Pole barn - would want to pour concrete pillars and not bury treated posts
3) Post+Beam timber frame
4) Stick built

If I go with #2 or #3, I will likely insulate from the outside. I don't have the budget for IPS panels, but may be able to do expanding foam insulation or foam panels. The foam panel method is sometimes referred to as Wrap and Strap. This would add 12" to the outside of the structure (so a 21'x33').

I want to submit my variance request this week. Should I request a larger structure that I will actually build (21x33), just in case I end up going with #2/#3? Or will they only be concerned with the inside dimensions?


Thanks!

[Jaromir Svoboda]

They will need exterior dimensions

[Tim Offutt]

FYI, you dont have to pour concrete columns for your posts. You can buy premade concrete post bottoms with steel post brackets that are design for pole barns. I have used them several times and they are becoming common. A less expensive option is heavy plastic post sleeves. These slide over the post bottom and prevent contact with soil and moisture. They cost about $20 each.

[Mark Kornell]

If you're not up against site coverage limitations, put your application in for the larger size. If you end up.not going with the wrap and strap, you have the option of giving yourself an extra 12" in each dimension on the inside...

That being said, do you tbink your building inspector would be able to see the difference between 20' and 21' without a tape?

Also, why are you looking 10' or 12' foundation walls? Retaining a slope? That seems like massive overkill where 6" or 8" stem walls would typically be used.

[Aliza Martin Joe]

Pay more attention on interior work when you find the location and sort out your problems. thanks

[Jim Andrew]

I like a stem wall perimeter, much neater and cleaner than a ditch poured full of concrete, and easier to keep straight. A gambrel roof building would be simpler to build if you go stick frame. 2x6 walls are much stronger than 2x4, and allow you more insulation, and much easier to walk while you are framing the upper floor. You can use the wide I joists to span 20' or more, personally I would go wider, but that is me. The gambrel roof is fairly simple, just come in 4' and build a 8' wall where your rafters break, and go with a 4/12 roof on the upper. You need the framed wall on the exterior to support your floor joists.

[Mark Bolton]

Also, why are you looking 10' or 12' foundation walls? Retaining a slope? That seems like massive overkill where 6" or 8" stem walls would typically be used.

I believe he said 10-12" not foot

[Mark Bolton]

My $0.02 would be to stick build it. You can easily get up in the mid 20's with a wall R value and still maintain a 6.5" wall thickness depending on your exterior finish. If you have more room add more. Wondering if the inspector is going to pull out a tape or not is a major major risk. Stick to your plan and dont fudge anything.

[Ryan Mooney]

Not sure in your jurisdiction but I believe some measure the domensions as including eave overhang and some don't. Clarifying that with the local authority might be useful to know so you don't plan on size A and then have to shave several feet off of each side because of eave overhangs.

[roger wiegand]

My best advice is to talk through your plans with your building inspector and ZBA members prior to submission. Find out what they are concerned about or not and address those issues up front. The inspectors I've dealt with have always been happy to be consulted; they want the process to go smoothly and so do you. Knowing in advance what will or will not fly, and discussing the alternatives with the guy who has to approve them does wonders for easing the process. For a zoning variance it really helps to have talked with your neighbors and similarly addressed their concerns to the extent you can-- be it height, color, planting of screening plants, or whatever. Nothing derails a zoning meeting faster than having an abutter show up and complain-- if your next door neighbor shows up to comment in your behalf (like ours did, bless him!) so much the better. Avoid surprises at all costs.

[John Pariseau]

My best advice is to talk through your plans with your building inspector and ZBA members prior to submission. Find out what they are concerned about or not and address those issues up front. The inspectors I've dealt with have always been happy to be consulted; they want the process to go smoothly and so do you. Knowing in advance what will or will not fly, and discussing the alternatives with the guy who has to approve them does wonders for easing the process. For a zoning variance it really helps to have talked with your neighbors and similarly addressed their concerns to the extent you can-- be it height, color, planting of screening plants, or whatever. Nothing derails a zoning meeting faster than having an abutter show up and complain-- if your next door neighbor shows up to comment in your behalf (like ours did, bless him!) so much the better. Avoid surprises at all costs.
Good - I did this already (met with the zoning plan author, a twp consultant). He pointed out some things, and gave me some advice. Not too sure how to contact the ZBA members (is that even allowed?).

As for fudging things - not interested in doing that.

The consultant told me that there would be a few dimensions the board would be concerned about:

1) distance from roads (easement)
2) Size (l x w x h)

I'm concerned about getting #2 right. I had trouble getting plans from the company I got a quote from (local lumberyard). Another yard didn't want to even talk until I got the variance issue sorted out. I'm looking for a set of plans online, and will use those to go from.

[Aliza Martin Joe]

Good - I did this already (met with the zoning plan author, a twp consultant). He pointed out some things, and gave me some advice. Not too sure how to contact the ZBA members (is that even allowed?).

As for fudging things - not interested in doing that.

The consultant told me that there would be a few dimensions the board would be concerned about:

1) distance from roads (easement)
2) Size (l x w x h)

I'm concerned about getting #2 right. I had trouble getting plans from the company I got a quote from (local lumberyard). Another yard didn't want to even talk until I got the variance issue sorted out. I'm looking for a set of plans online, and will use those to go from.


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What are those advises? Can you share them with me?

[Larry Frank]

I bet a bunch of us envy you getting a new shop like that. Talking with the zoning people and asking their advice is a great way to avoid problems and to develop a real with them.

IMHO I would build a stick built with maximum insulation on sides roof and even floor. Heating and air conditioning costs are something to think about. If I were to build again, I would build at least 2 x 6 walls.

Good Luck and let us know how it is going.

[Ole Anderson]

This thread is nearly a year old, my question would be, how did it work out for the OP?

[John Pariseau]

This thread is nearly a year old, my question would be, how did it work out for the OP?
Interesting you should ask... After getting a land survey, working for months on the variance, I submitted it in July (2015), had the meeting the next month, and was approved unanimously. A funny sidenote - the ZBA said, "Can we approve a larger building? 20x35 is small.". The township consultant said no, that I would have to get a new variance. I'm glad he said that - while 20x35 is small to a lot of people, and I know I'll regret building so small, it is the right amount of space. Anyhow, I'm building a pole barn / timber frame. The frame is up and I'm in the process of installing 2x6 T&G on the roof. There are three forums I frequent - Garage Journal, Sawmill Creek, and Forestry Forum. I decided to document the build at Garage Journal: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=296935 for ease of posting pictures (Forestry Forum requires you upload them to their forum), and I don't post here too often.

[Ted Calver]

I checked it out, John. My compliments on a fantastic build.

[Ole Anderson]

Wow, a beautiful shop you are going to have there! Post and beam, mortice and tenon construction, sweet!!! I hope your roof insulation is going on top so you don't cover that great T&G ceiling.

[John Pariseau]

Wow, a beautiful shop you are going to have there! Post and beam, mortice and tenon construction, sweet!!! I hope your roof insulation is going on top so you don't cover that great T&G ceiling.
Thanks! It kind of morphed over the past few years leading up to this. And it will be exposed - I'm doing wrap and strap over the timber frame - basically some sort of weather barrier on top of the T&G, then insulation, then strapping, then metal roof. T&G will be exposed inside. Same for the outer walls, they will use 2x6 sidewall girts (full thickness - from a local sawyer).

I'm on the fence about the metal roof - I think I should contract that out now that I've had some experience up on high. I have the ladders to accomplish the task, but it is getting cold, and while I'm not afraid of heights, I realize saving a few $$ but breaking a leg (or worse) trying to do something I've never done before might not be the wisest choice. I think I'll still apply the foam - I fear the cost would eclipse the price of a SIP. My area isn't exactly the cheapest (15 miles from Ann Arbor, Plymouth) for construction either. Not too sure how to find someone who can do the foam.

[Aliza Martin Joe]

I checked it out, John. My compliments on a fantastic build.

You have a nice vision Ted. keep it up.



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[Mike Heidrick]

AMAZING Build! So awesome!!! Great job. Ill be watching it continue on GJ!!

Did you send that compressor back to Amazon?? The cold weather has to be hard on it.

[John Pariseau]

AMAZING Build! So awesome!!! Great job. Ill be watching it continue on GJ!!

Did you send that compressor back to Amazon?? The cold weather has to be hard on it.
Yes - returned it to Amazon, and they shipped out a new one. The replacement was better in some ways (higher cutoff pressure, alignment of quick connects in panel) and worse in one way (paint finish wasn't perfect on tanks). I've only run it in temperatures as low as 28 - seems to be holding up well. There wasn't anything in the manual about running in cold temperatures.