steamer trunk build questions.

[cody michael]

I am building a steamer trunk. On the plans it calls for 1/4 plywood panels. for the recessed areas (not sure what the technical name is) I want to use some maple boards I have, planning on resawing it from just over 3/4 maybe 7/8 down to 2 pieces of 1/4. will this cause any issues? Can this be glued in or do I need to leave room for wood movement? if I need to leave room will that cause any weakness verse it being glued in?

the bottom calls for 1/2 plywood. can I use a glued up piece of wood for that? in either 1/2 (which it calls for) or 3/4 I would probably use maple since that is what I have handy.

The rails I am going to make out of walnut. I haven't did anything like this before so sorry if the questions are basic.

I am wanting to use the maple instead of plywood because I prefer solid wood and I have it available, plywood I would have to buy.

[Kent A Bathurst]

(not sure what the technical name is)

rabbet


I want to use some maple boards I have, planning on resawing it from just over 3/4 maybe 7/8 down to 2 pieces of 1/4. will this cause any issues?

1/4" is pretty thin for solid wood. I wouldn't do it - I'd be worried about stability.



Can this be glued in or do I need to leave room for wood movement?

The standard answer for cross-grain applications [where the end of your panels attach to the rabbets in the stiles] is to allow for movement.

These panels are only 4-5/8" wide. You might be able to get away with glue on all four sides - small dimensional change. If you do decide to glue all 4 sides, then you can change my answer above - 1/4" should be fine.



the bottom calls for 1/2 plywood. can I use a glued up piece of wood for that?

Sure. But - that MUST be allowed to move front-to-back. 19" x 35" . Plywood is the standard for this part.

Also - are you going to make the tray? What will the bottom be made out of?

[cody michael]

I think I will build the tray, I hadn't thought about making the bottom of the tray. If plywood is the way to go I will price it out, how much would a decent quality plywood cost? should I use a maple plywood? or just get anything in decent quality since no one will see it anyways? what do I look for in plywood for these pieces, is the hardwood plywood at places like menards or home depot/ lowes good or is this something I should get from a woodworking, lumber store

for the 1/4 panels if glued on all 4 sides at 4-5/8 tall and 32 long there shouldn't be enough movement to worry about? if so thats great that is what I wanted to do.


if for the bottoms plywood is the best solution thats what I'll do, I think plywood glued on all 4 sides would be stronger then solid wood with movement space, correct?

[Kent A Bathurst]

I think I will build the tray, I hadn't thought about making the bottom of the tray. If plywood is the way to go I will price it out, how much would a decent quality plywood cost? should I use a maple plywood? or just get anything in decent quality since no one will see it anyways? what do I look for in plywood for these pieces, is the hardwood plywood at places like menards or home depot/ lowes good or is this something I should get from a woodworking, lumber store

for the 1/4 panels if glued on all 4 sides at 4-5/8 tall and 32 long there shouldn't be enough movement to worry about? if so thats great that is what I wanted to do.


if for the bottoms plywood is the best solution thats what I'll do, I think plywood glued on all 4 sides would be stronger then solid wood with movement space, correct?

1. You won't see the bottom of the trunk nor the bottom of the tray. You can get some hardwood plywood -mystery species white - at HD. Will be fine here. If you were using ply for the panels, you might want to go with better grade from a woodworking/lumber store.

2. I said "you might be able to get away with" gluing all 4 sides. Not a guarantee nor recommendation - - just saying maybe you've got a shot. Your call. Ya pays yer money, and ya takes yer chances.

I would be using 1/2" - 5/8" solid wood panels, and allow for movement, but I have lumber in many species, sizes and thicknesses stacked all around, so you and I are in different situations.

If you were using ply, then of course you glue all 4 sides - no crossgrain movement.

3. 1/2" ply glued all 4 sides for bottom, versus 3/4" solid wood allowing for expansion - I dunno - strength is probably a toss-up. But - this is a smallish trunk - your'e not storing anvils in there, right? How much weight can there really be? This is a non-issue, IMO.

[cody michael]

how would 1/2-5/8 panels work? wouldn't the rail need to be much thicker to handle that? I have some other maple stacked in the barn, but 1 piece has very pretty coloring (some red tint) if I followed the plan with 1/4 wood I should have enough from that board to do all or at least the front with it.

I like the idea of glueing on all 4 sides to give it lateral strength? to stop it from every trying to parallelogram or wobble, or is this not necessary?

if I glued all 4 sides of the 1/4 inch wood what is the worst case scenario? would it break other joints? I don't know what I'm risking.

just trying to learn how this all works.

[Lee Schierer]

how would 1/2-5/8 panels work? wouldn't the rail need to be much thicker to handle that? I have some other maple stacked in the barn, but 1 piece has very pretty coloring (some red tint) if I followed the plan with 1/4 wood I should have enough from that board to do all or at least the front with it. Unless you plan to use teh trunk for travel, 1/4" thick panels should work just fine. Thicker panels would be stronger,but also heavier and probably aren't needed for your trunk

I like the idea of glueing on all 4 sides to give it lateral strength? to stop it from every trying to parallelogram or wobble, or is this not necessary?
You'll probbly get enough lateral stiffness from your rails and stiles if their joinery is tight fitting and square.


if I glued all 4 sides of the 1/4 inch wood what is the worst case scenario? would it break other joints? I don't know what I'm risking.
The risk of gluing all four sides is that the panel may (probably will) split somewhere when it dries more.

just trying to learn how this all works.

Keep us informed of your progress

[Mike Cutler]

Cody

Yes, you can use solid maple panels instead of plywood. At it's core, this is a frame and panel construction piece
The strength is coming from pieces 1,2,3,4,5,6 and 7. The plywood sections, pieces 13 and 14 aren't doing anything much for strength.
You will have to select your solid maple carefully. Every part should be as close to quarter sawn as possible to minimize seasonal changes in humidity.
None of the solid panels will be glued all the way around the perimeter. An inch or so of coverage on the ends is what you're looking for.

Me personally, I'd leave the bottom as plywood,and it would be cabinet grade baltic birch. You can always lay in a false interior bottom to match the rest of the piece if you desire. A solid wood panel that size is going to be problematic.

PS.
Lay in a false bottom made of spanish cedar, about an 1/8" thick. It will be replaceable, and add a very distinctive element to the project. ;)

[cody michael]

The trunk will not be for travel, just decorative storage.

So should I put finish all 4 sides of the 1/4 panels. With like 1/6 gap all around? Then assemble the frame? Should I put finish on before I assemble to help with glue clean up?

I have titebond 2 and 3 glue is that a good glue to use for this?

[Mel Fulks]

I guess you are following a modern plan. Pretty sure you won't be using it on a steamer or as airplane carry on luggage.
Old trunks were often covered with canvas and then painted, that gave them a lot of extra strength and allowed thin panels. I've seen old hand made trunks that were covered with fur. Covering thin (weak?) panels on both sides with light
canvas by glue,AKA cotton duck, and available at most fabric stores, is easy to do and adds a lot of strength. I would consider the plans only as a basic
flexible guide line.

[cody michael]

Cody

Yes, you can use solid maple panels instead of plywood. At it's core, this is a frame and panel construction piece
The strength is coming from pieces 1,2,3,4,5,6 and 7. The plywood sections, pieces 13 and 14 aren't doing anything much for strength.
You will have to select your solid maple carefully. Every part should be as close to quarter sawn as possible to minimize seasonal changes in humidity.
None of the solid panels will be glued all the way around the perimeter. An inch or so of coverage on the ends is what you're looking for.

Me personally, I'd leave the bottom as plywood,and it would be cabinet grade baltic birch. You can always lay in a false interior bottom to match the rest of the piece if you desire. A solid wood panel that size is going to be problematic.

PS.
Lay in a false bottom made of spanish cedar, about an 1/8" thick. It will be replaceable, and add a very distinctive element to the project. ;)

an inch or so on the end. do you mean like an inch in around the corners? or just on top/bottom or just on sides. all my previous projects have been all solid wood, I want to make sure I get this right since I don't have time to work on projects very often.

I found baltic birch plywood for 1/2 inch for 45$ locally. I will just use 1/2 for the tray also.

is there anything you can do to the wood to minimize movement? I know finishing will reduce it, any techniques to reduce it more?


I plan on starting this some times this week, have the boards planed currently. a few questions before I start

after I resaw the maple is there anything special I should do to promote them staying flat, until I get the frames made? should I put finish on them? sticker them like boards? just stack them on top of eachother?

should the panels be glued in a small amount or not at all? if they should be glued in some exactly where and how much?

should I put finish on before assembly to help with glue cleanup? if so any special tips? I know you don't finish where you want to glue.

[Kent A Bathurst]

an inch or so on the end. do you mean like an inch in around the corners?

should the panels be glued in a small amount or not at all? if they should be glued in some exactly where and how much?

In the center of the ends. I would glue the 2" in the middle of teh 4-5/8" dimension. The amout of movement over 2" will not be a problem, but I have no issue with just gluing 1", either. Think about it - if you glue in the corners, then you are still attempting to stop the wood from expanding and contracting, which you cannot do.



is there anything you can do to the wood to minimize movement? I know finishing will reduce it, any techniques to reduce it more?

You cannot stop the wood movement. Period. You have to accomodate it.



after I resaw the maple is there anything special I should do to promote them staying flat, until I get the frames made? should I put finish on them? sticker them like boards? just stack them on top of eachother?

Never stack them flat on top of each other. Never lay one flat on a table. YOu have to sticker them, so that there is air flow on both sides of each piece. If you don't do this, one side will dry at a faster rate than the other, and it will warp.

Me - I stand them on edge. Whatever.



should I put finish on before assembly to help with glue cleanup? if so any special tips? I know you don't finish where you want to glue.

You have this bit correct. Don't finish where the glue will be.

[Dave Richards]

FWIW, if you want to use solid wood for the panels, you could make them 3/8 in. thick on the sides and rabbet the inside edges so there's a 1/4-in.-thick tongue to go in the grooves of the frames. It appears the panels that the handles attach to are already thicker with a tongue and a bevel like a raised panel door. You could do the same to all the other panels, too.

[cody michael]

Would I be better cutting the maple panels sooner and storing them, or get the frame ready, then cut them and install in frame as quickly.

Should I glue any on the 32 inch length? Or just the 2 inches on the 4 inch sides?

Thanks for your help.

[Myk Rian]

I like the idea of glueing on all 4 sides to give it lateral strength? to stop it from every trying to parallelogram or wobble, or is this not necessary?
Space balls would work. They are little rubbery balls that keep panels from wobbling. That way you could edge glue the boards, and not the end grains.

[Lee Schierer]

The trunk will not be for travel, just decorative storage.

So should I put finish all 4 sides of the 1/4 panels. With like 1/6 gap all around? Then assemble the frame? Should I put finish on before I assemble to help with glue clean up?

I have titebond 2 and 3 glue is that a good glue to use for this?

Finishing the panels before assembly will make them slightly thicker so you will have to allow for that. It will also make it so that id they do shrink a bit you won't see unfinished wood.

I would use regular titebond or titebond 2, no need for water proof glue.

[cody michael]

Space balls would work. They are little rubbery balls that keep panels from wobbling. That way you could edge glue the boards, and not the end grains.

can you explain this better? I understand the spaceballs and what they do, (provide room for board to shrink/expand without becoming loose) how would this change how it can be glued?

[cody michael]

also I don't think anyone has answered this, how much space do I leave for movement of the 1/4 panel. it is early winter, I have stored the wood in my basement which is pretty dry for the last couple weeks.

would 1/16 inch all around be enough? or should it be more? the plans only call for the dado to be 1/4 inch deep. I feel if I need to go more then a 1/16 smaller I would need to make the dado deeper. thanks again for your advise.

Ok, I think 1/16 should be fine, I was looking at a shrinkage calculator and realized I was looking at the wrong number, it says going from 20% humidity to 70% it only moves .04 inches, even on 0% to 100% it only moves about .14 which is just over an 1/8 indoors I don't think it should ever see 0% or 100% so I think 1/16 space all around should be good. is that true?

[Myk Rian]

can you explain this better? I understand the spaceballs and what they do, (provide room for board to shrink/expand without becoming loose) how would this change how it can be glued?
Make a panel by edge gluing the boards. Or not. Your choice.
No need for PMs to discuss this.

[Mike Cutler]

Cody

I'm sure that many folks here would modify that design slightly based on personal preference and experience, which explains why you're getting different types of input.
If I were building this chest, I would approach it from the point that I want to move that chest, fully loaded, in the back of a truck. I want to be able to pick it up, carry it out a door, put in the truck and do the reverse on the other end. I also want someone to be able to do it 50 years from now.
That being said this is what I would do.
All pieces would be Q-sawn for strength, stability and minimization of shrinkage.
The pieces that provide the supporting framework would be M&T joints and they would either be drawn and pinned, or fox tailed wedged into place. Not just glued. This will be a cross grain glue up joint, which on it's own can have a good degree of strength, depending on cross sectional coverage area, but the addition of the mechanical aid in the form of either a drawn, or wedged joint, would give it more strength for the decades.
The panel sections I previously referred too would have an amount of glue on both ends sufficient to hold them in place, or use space balls. These panels are only enclosing the space, you're just trying to stop them from rattling about.
The exception would be the panels that the exterior handles are on.( Remember, I want to be able to pick this up.) I would put the glue along the top edge of that panel and down the sides an inch or two from the top. I would want all of my expansion to come from the bottom of those panels. I also don't want the panel moving up when I pick it up.
The bottom would still be BB, and I like the idea mentioned to make the panels thicker and have the extra material thickness on the inside. That's a nice idea in my opinion.

Here is a link to a frame and panel chest I built a few years back. It is the basic same construction you are doing. Instead of multiple panels on the sides, it has single panels.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?46908-Blanket-Chest-Tack-Trunk&highlight=

[cody michael]

thanks, that's a good idea about glueing the lifting panels differently.

I don't plan on moving it often, mainly put it in my den, fill it up and leave it there.