Super frustrated

[James Lehr]

So here is my situation: I just started woodworking six months ago and transitioned very quickly into hand tools. I've watched maybe 100 hrs of various craftsman/instructors, etc. I would say the three most studied and I try to emulate are Paul Sellers, Christopher Schwarz, and Rob Cosman. I bought a #4 Stanley Bailey type 6 about 4 months ago and fell in love right away. (I'm getting to the point) two months ago I bought a Hock replacement blade for the #4 and followed all instructions for flattening and sharpening a new blade. Since switching the new blade I've suffered through mistake after mistake in my work. I don't know if my technique is wrong, the plane (body) itself is problematic (like a nick or scratch) or if I don't have enough camber on the iron or too much. So I'm posting so pics of the blade, chipbreaker, and the plane sole. Here is what I've checked:

1. Used 120 grit paper to the plane sole lightly to remove nicks and or small abrasions from use
2. Adjusted the chipbreaker so that there is no gap between the blade and the breaker at the blade edge.
3. Sharpened the blade on Norton Waterstones 1000 and 4000 at 30* with a few strokes on each side with additional downward pressure. I'm using the $10 roller guide Chris Schwarz uses in his videos and try to copy his technique.



So there it is. I'm posting this because I can't finish my workbench at this point bc my smoother keeps leaving tracks! I've used my jointer (Stanley 7) to get it ready to smooth but I almost want to give up on the project altogether. That has more to do with my hours spent correcting my poor glue up job of the bench top. Thanks for any advice you can think of from viewing the pics3011653011663011673011643011683011653011663011 67301164

[Dave Parkis]

No pics. Hard to say until we see pics, but it could be either too little camber on the iron or too much. How thick are the shavings you're taking? If all you're trying to do is smooth out the tracks left by the #7, I think you should be taking very thin shavings with very little camber on the plane iron. You also want the chip breaker very, very close to the edge of the iron and you want to advance the frog so that when you get the iron where you want it, there's a very small opening left in the mouth. I hope I'm not making this confusing. Personally, I don't generally camber an iron for a smoother, I just "ease the corners" so that they're rounded as opposed to sharp corners.

[Andrae Covington]

...my smoother keeps leaving tracks!...

The two most common causes I've experienced are:

1) not getting the cutting edge perfectly parallel with the sole, so that one corner sticks out further than the other.

2) even with a cambered blade, if you advance the blade out far enough so that the corners project beyond the sole, this will leave tracks.

In either case, I would try backing off the blade and seeing if that makes any difference. The adjusters can be finicky and a slight adjustment may be the difference between getting tracks or not projecting enough to cut at all. But with a cambered blade especially, you should be able to find the sweet spot in-between. You probably won't be able to use the entire width of the blade, however, but that's kind of how it goes with a cambered blade.

Additionally, I think it is fairly common practice to round the corners over with a file. It doesn't have to be very much on a bevel-down plane like a Stanley; on my Veritas bevel-up planes I've sometimes had to round the corners more aggressively, if I am using a straight blade.

[Jim Koepke]

... So I'm posting so pics of the blade, chipbreaker, and the plane sole. Here is what I've checked:

... 2. Adjusted the chipbreaker so that there is no gap between the blade and the breaker at the blade edge...

So there it is. I'm posting this because I can't finish my workbench at this point bc my smoother keeps leaving tracks!
...

Cool, three of my smoothers are type 6. Two #4s & one #4-1/2.

I think you forgot the pictures. Okay, they showed up while writing this.

Have you verified the tracks are left by the sides of the blade? They can also occur when a sliver of wood gets caught between the blade and chip breaker.

There needs to be some gap between the blade edge and the edge of the chip breaker.

The discussions of chip breaker settings are long and engaging. They should all be taken with a dose of YMMV. Some of your images look like the breaker is beyond the edge of the blade. Especially the last one (9 of 9). It is kind of hard to determine which side of the assembly is being viewed in some of the images.

Is the plane's sole flat and square? The picture almost makes it look like there is a radius over the length. That may just be the perspective of the image.

As Dave suggests with a very light shaving you will be less likely to leave tracks.

If your chip breaker is engaging the wood it is too close to the edge. Just to eliminate it as the cause, move it back until the gap between the edge of the blade and the chip breaker is at least visible. Depending on your eyesight that should be between 0.005-0.010". A decent place to start.

Next culprit could be your lateral adjuster. If it changes during planing that could be a major leaver of tracks. Check on some scrap by setting it for an even shaving. If your cambering is working you will not get a full width shaving at a light setting. Now take about a dozen shavings with just the right or left half of the plane on the work. When you go to take a shaving from the other side does is it the same as when you started? If not you may need to tighten the lever cap screw. My suggestion is to only turn it 16th of a turn at a time with the lever lifted. Retest and repeat as needed.

One of my planes has a tendency to leave tracks when the blade is honed square. Usually only on one side. The track can usually be eliminated by starting at the far side and working toward myself.

Here is something I wrote about one way to simulate a cambered blade:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?158373-My-Camber-Blade-Round-Tuit-Finally-Came

This shows the effect of just a little bit of metal removal from the back of the blade's sides. About the same amount of metal removal from the bevel side of the blade should also do the trick.

For the lightest of shavings as one would want from a smoother it doesn't take a lot to 'feather' the edges.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Hi James

I think that you are essentially doing everything right ... except getting enough camber on the blade, and I may also back off the chipbreaker for now.

Here is your image. I cannot see any camber!

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=301167&d=1417320766

The Hock blade is thicker and has harder steel than the Stanley. This means that you likely are not removing as much at the ends of the blade as you believe you are. Try cambering the blade again, removing more than before. If you remove too much it just reduces the width of the cut. No harm done. If so, you can always hone the centre section a little more and regain width.

The chipbreaker is a very useful method of reducing tearout .... when it is needed. It is not always needed. A sharp blade on straight grained wood does not need the extra help. Reduce the complication for now.

If you are getting chipping it is common with new blades and indicates that some over-hard steel lies at the edge still. Grind the blade back by a 1/32", and re-hone.

I would also be going higher than 4000 grit (no matter what Paul Sellers says - he says some things that are simply playing to a specific audience), and look to go to 8000. Or simply make a "strop" (a piece of smoothed hardwood works best) with green compound, which would give you the equivalent of a 30K stone.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Lehr]

Thank you so much. I think I have some things to try tomorrow morning. I will resharpen and add a camber that I can see. Then home to 8000. I think I'll run the plane over some 220 grit sandpaper just to double check the "flatness" of the sole. Then try taking a shallow cut. One question about the strop: I bought compound but I was going to glue leather to mdf or some plywood scrap. Is there a better working option? Is the strop more or less honing than the 8000 grit Waterstone? Paul sellers says 30 strokes, what say you guys?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi James

Leave the sole of the plane alone. The best way to determine if the sole is OK is by taking a see-through shaving. If the plane can do so, then the sole is just fine thank you. You are not going to improve on that.

The advantage of of hardwood rather than leather as a "strop" (not really a strop), is that you will minimise the chance of dubbing the edge. Even hard leather has give and will do so. Some swear by plywood, and others use MDF. As long as it is flat and smooth. I prefer hardwood simply because MDF and plywood have surfaces that can break down, and take in moisture, which alter their shape and integrity.

Note: only pull the blade back on a strop. Do not push forward.

30 strokes on leather? Nah ... it is not a recipe. The aim is to remove scratches (the mirror shine is a consequence of consistent grit size). This can take 3 strokes or 30, or something in between. Is it easier than an 8000 stone. Could be. Try it and find out. A bar of green compound from LV is cheap and last a long time.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stewie Simpson]

Watch this video.

https://paulsellers.com/videos/

David Charlesworth is also another woodworker I have a very high regard for.

Stewie;

[Matt Knights]

I take the corners off my plane irons with a mill file and then stone them, this is only on my smothers. Works a treat.

Matt

[Jim Matthews]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?158373-My-Camber-Blade-Round-Tuit-Finally-Came

This shows the effect of just a little bit of metal removal from the back of the blade's sides. About the same amount of metal removal from the bevel side of the blade should also do the trick. jtk

+1 on this.

What this video, around 3:45 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvTcReENk9g) to see how I take that "edge off" to minimize tracking.

[Jim Matthews]

Derek has been generous with his time,
and freely gives of his methods.

He's never asked for compensation,
nor has he made any claims regarding his skills.

He need not - the work speaks, for itself.

The fact that our man in Perth has managed
to build his furniture and tools - as a hobby
is something worthy of our estimation.

Disparaging someone like DC smacks of envious sniping.

For one, I've derived plenty that can be used in my own
dank shop from reading Derek's posts here and IntheWoodshop blog.

[Prashun Patel]

Lots of amazing info here. Please let's not digress.

[Bill Rhodus]

Where are you located James?

[Steve Voigt]

One question about the strop: I bought compound but I was going to glue leather to mdf or some plywood scrap. Is there a better working option? Is the strop more or less honing than the 8000 grit Waterstone? Paul sellers says 30 strokes, what say you guys?


James, lots of great advice in this thread. You should be well on your way. I think Derek hit the nail on the head…more camber, sharpen to a higher grit, and move the CB back until you've solved the problem of the tracks.

If you are using a honing guide to sharpen, I wouldn't mix that with Seller's stropping method. Sellers needs to strop the way he does because of his overall sharpening method. First, he's using diamond stones, which leave deeper scratches than other media (waterstones, oilstones). So he needs a lot of strokes to polish the edge. Second, his control over the geometry of the bevel is less precise than other methods, so he compensates for that by using a lot of pressure on a flexible leather surface; that ensures that he polishes all the way to the edge.

If you are using a honing guide on waterstones, you only need a few gentle strokes when stropping. It's a completely different technique than what Seller's does. But I think you should first see if the 8000 stone is enough; you might not even need to strop.

BTW, I'm not criticizing Seller's technique here…it obviously works. What I'm cautioning against is mixing and matching parts from different sharpening systems. That generally doesn't work so well. If you like Chris Schwarz's approach, I suggest using it as he does, without trying to improve upon it.

[Frederick Skelly]

James, lots of great advice in this thread. You should be well on your way. I think Derek hit the nail on the head…more camber, sharpen to a higher grit, and move the CB back until you've solved the problem of the tracks.

If you are using a honing guide to sharpen, I wouldn't mix that with Seller's stropping method. Sellers needs to strop the way he does because of his overall sharpening method. First, he's using diamond stones, which leave deeper scratches than other media (waterstones, oilstones). So he needs a lot of strokes to polish the edge. Second, his control over the geometry of the bevel is less precise than other methods, so he compensates for that by using a lot of pressure on a flexible leather surface; that ensures that he polishes all the way to the edge.

If you are using a honing guide on waterstones, you only need a few gentle strokes when stropping. It's a completely different technique than what Seller's does. But I think you should first see if the 8000 stone is enough; you might not even need to strop.

BTW, I'm not criticizing Seller's technique here…it obviously works. What I'm cautioning against is mixing and matching parts from different sharpening systems. That generally doesn't work so well. If you like Chris Schwarz's approach, I suggest using it as he does, without trying to improve upon it.

Steve, thanks for pointing this out. I too use diamond stones and I didnt snap to the point you are making.
Fred

[Bob Woodburn]

Perhaps your problem is already solved via the great advice above.

The type 6 Bailey, handsome as it may be, has structural problems that can permit the frog to dip, nod, lean or rock and allow the blade to dive one place or another. With gentle shallow cuts you might get lines, hear vibratory sounds or feel intermittent resistance; with heavier cuts chatter and tear-out. Sounds you were satisfied with the plane until you put in a thicker blade, and presumably had to move the frog back to get the same mouth opening.

The type 6 frog problem is that its most forward half, as well as the "receiver" for it on the body, are not machined: rather they are just japanned raw casting that may or may not actually be in contact. Stability and strength for the type 6 frog thus rely on the machined bosses on the back half of the frog held down to the body with 2 screws. In effect, the frog can tend to mimic the structure of a diving board.

You can test this possible explanation for your problem on your plane in a variety of ways. You might try sliding a shim of paper (like a post-it) or such through the mouth of the assembled and tightened down plane from the sole side and up under the blade/frog. If you can slide through a gap anywhere, it means the blade is unsupported and frog/blade can dive into the wood sporadically when under force. I'm sure you can think of other tests. In the past I've put wooden or metal shims under this part of a dangling frog to shore things up and stop the diving. But there's only so much that can be done for mitigating such designs flaw.

There are other structural/functional weaknesses to the early (and later) Baileys which make fettling and tuning them a life long quest.

[David Weaver]

If you found the stock iron favorable, I'd just keep using it.

My recommendation otherwise if you're early on in your use is to get the david charlesworth sharpening video for planes and buy an eclipse style guide. There's a good method on it for appying camber in a way that it won't leave tracks on a board and will also leave a uniform surface that just dubbing corners does not.

[lowell holmes]

+1 for what David said. The stock iron is probably softer and easier to work, but doesn't hold the edge as long.

Also, 30 strokes on the strop is about 30 seconds effort, not a big deal. I use mdf with green compound on it. I think it helps.
I agree it probably isn't needed if you are using water stones.

[seth lowden]

Are the tracks too deep to sand out? If not, lightly sand and move on.

[Jim Koepke]

James,

A belated welcome to the Creek. Your location isn't indicated in your profile. You may live close to another member who would be willing to work with you to solve this problem. If you are in my area you would be welcome to come by my shop with your plane and blades so we can work on this.


two months ago I bought a Hock replacement blade for the #4 and followed all instructions for flattening and sharpening a new blade. Since switching the new blade I've suffered through mistake after mistake in my work.

This part went by me the first time. This sounds like the original blade may have been working fine. If that is the case, then we can narrow the problem's cause a bit.

As is often the case when a new user inquires about a problem there is a lot of advice to absorb.



Thank you so much. I think I have some things to try tomorrow morning. I will resharpen and add a camber that I can see. Then home to 8000. I think I'll run the plane over some 220 grit sandpaper just to double check the "flatness" of the sole. Then try taking a shallow cut. One question about the strop: I bought compound but I was going to glue leather to mdf or some plywood scrap. Is there a better working option? Is the strop more or less honing than the 8000 grit Waterstone? Paul sellers says 30 strokes, what say you guys?

As Derek said, forget about the plane's sole for now. It is easier to mess up the sole than it is to correct a problem that isn't evident.

The advantage of taking as shallow of a cut as possible is if there are any tracks, they should be considerably lessened.

People have different opinions on using a strop. Stropping can round over an edge if not done carefully. Even coming off of an Arkansas stone my irons seldom need more than 5 strokes per side to reach optimum performance. FWIW, my strops are leather and they are usually used on the cast iron table of my drill press. They are set near the edge so if the blade is pulled off they hit air instead of cast iron.

Usually after using an 8000 grit stone a blade is not in need of stropping. That doesn't mean I do not strop after using my 8000 stone. It all depends on how the blade looks at the moment. Stropping will not fix what the stone missed.

jtk

[Fidel Fernandez]

I am a novice as well, but I have experienced your problem as well. Quite some time ago.

It made me stop using hand tools for a while, big mistake. I also was leaving tracks all over my first bench. the culprit a straight blade edge, second culprit the blade was not parallel to the mouth. It was protruding a little more from one side.

I learned my mistake and I rounded the edge. You need to be careful because that doesn't guarantee a straight blade on plane, one corner can always protruding. check twice.

I also have diamond and spyderco ceramic stones. I have another step before I go to the strop, I have a 2000 or 2500 sand paper on top of granite. I gave just a few passes and the scratches are gone. It looks like a mirror.
Then I go to the strops.

Keep trying and don't make a mistake like I did to stop using hand tools. I learned the hand tools more difficult to master are your own hands. You have to develop the memory muscle with repetition and repetition.

[Matthew Hills]

Once you've got some camber, recommend this technique demonstrated by Deneb (of Lie-Nielsen) to get a balanced cut:

Quick Tips Episode 2: Precision Plane Setup with the Wooden Block Trick (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpQSDI0SNIc&list=PL1E4A85B18EB8D8BA&index=2)
Matt

[Simon MacGowen]

Steve brought out a good point here. I have seen people mixing different methods or methods from different teachers, thinking they have got it all. It is never wrong to get to know more, but only if you know the full story. Sometimes, more is not better.

Simon

[James Lehr]

If you found the stock iron favorable, I'd just keep using it..

unfortunately the blade that came with my No 4 was down to a "nub" in that there was about 1 in of steel between the blade edge and the whole for the cap iron screw. After some research I went with a Hock replacement blade but kept the Stanley cap iron. I've considered a Hock cap iron but I'd prefer to spend the money elsewhere.

[James Lehr]

Where are you located James?

Manhattan, Kansas. I would love to meet some woodworkers and turners. I know of a club in KC but that's almost 2 1/2 hours east of me.

[Jim Koepke]

Steve brought out a good point here. I have seen people mixing different methods or methods from different teachers, thinking they have got it all. It is never wrong to get to know more, but only if you know the full story. Sometimes, more is not better.

Simon

Spot on Simon.

My favorite method is to keep is simple.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

unfortunately the blade that came with my No 4 was down to a "nub" in that there was about 1 in of steel between the blade edge and the whole for the cap iron screw.

1 inch of steel is a lot of steel for a plane blade.

jtk

[Megan Fitzpatrick]

James,

While I certainly understand your frustration and know you want to get the smooth plane problem diagnosed and addressed, consider NOT smooth-planing your workbench. It's not going to stay smooth for very long anyway. What matters is that it's level and flat. After getting it flat with a jointer plane, I'd call it done.

[David Weaver]

unfortunately the blade that came with my No 4 was down to a "nub" in that there was about 1 in of steel between the blade edge and the whole for the cap iron screw. After some research I went with a Hock replacement blade but kept the Stanley cap iron. I've considered a Hock cap iron but I'd prefer to spend the money elsewhere.

Hock's irons are good irons, and hard.

If you decide you like the stock hardness better, you can always creep ebay and see if you can get a small group of irons for cheap. There are some shysters on it trying to get $30 or more for stock stanley irons, but at the same time, stanley and millers falls vintage irons sell on there pretty regularly for about ten bucks. I've never had one of either that didn't work well as long as it started in decent condition, and they are about the same hardness.

[Steve Voigt]

James,

While I certainly understand your frustration and know you want to get the smooth plane problem diagnosed and addressed, consider NOT smooth-planing your workbench. It's not going to stay smooth for very long anyway. What matters is that it's level and flat. After getting it flat with a jointer plane, I'd call it done.

Ha! Good call. This is actually the best advice of all. I think we were all so focused on diagnosing the plane tracks problem that we overlooked the bigger purpose. FWIW, I never use a smoother on my bench. I flatten it with the biggest plane I have, like Megan sez. If there is tearout or other cosmetic flaws, well no worries, you will need to flatten it again soon enough…

[Matthew Hills]

James,

While I certainly understand your frustration and know you want to get the smooth plane problem diagnosed and addressed, consider NOT smooth-planing your workbench. It's not going to stay smooth for very long anyway. What matters is that it's level and flat. After getting it flat with a jointer plane, I'd call it done.

Would you still put a finish on the bench?
(asking as I haven't, after stopping with my bench flattened with a toothed plane)

Plane tracks still good to resolve for any work planned for the bench.

Matt

[Megan Fitzpatrick]

I put two coats of oil/varnish blend on my bench at work in 2009 when we built it...so that it would look pretty in pictures. For the bench I have at home, no finish. A finish does make it easier to clean off glue drips or what have you, but I just wipe them up if/when they happen; problem solved. No finish, in my experience, makes the top a little "grippier." (FWIW, Chris used to use an o/v blend on his benches; these days, he takes a toothing plane to the surface to rough it up so it "grips" stuff better; I have not yet succumbed to that temptation.)