Table Saw Choice 2: The Upgrade

[Jon Nuckles]

A couple of weeks ago I started a thread asking for advice choosing between a Grizzly 1023 or 691. I ordered the 1023, which had a short backorder at the time. That backorder was extended and I canceled my order. I decided that I am willing to spend some more money for a saw that I expect to keep for 20 years. May I ask for the Creek's help again in choosing how to spend more?

Here are my current options:

Sawstop 3HP Professional saw with 52" fence and brake cartridge for dado set delivered for $3338.

Pros: (1) dust collection, though I might have to pay another $199 for the overarm connection; (2) resale value, though I don't expect to be selling it unless life throws me a curve; (3) what I am told is excellent fit and finish and customer service; and (4) a saw made in the USA.
Cons: (1) the high price, driven in part by the exclusive safety technology that I don't feel I need; and (2) the need to change the brake cartridge whenever I switch to/from a dado set.


Powermatic PM2000 3HP with 50" fence delivered for $2600.99 during the current 15% off sale.

Pros: (1) based on my experience with my PM3520 lathe, I expect good fit and finish, though I'd like to hear what others who own it have to say; (2) heavy cast cabinet with included mobility.
Cons: I worry a bit about resale value these days, with everyone seemingly switching to Sawstop.
Question: how is the dust collection on this saw?


A small slider. I really haven't explored this deeply and it is hard to find prices online. I also don't use a lot of sheet goods in the furniture I build, so I may be paying for capacity I don't really need. Any suggestions on what to look at in the under $4500 range, if there even is anything? I also have only a single 220V circuit with a 30 amp breaker and I need to be able to run my 1.5 hp dust collector off it at the same time as the saw. While I'd like to solve that issue, there is no chance my landlord would accommodate that.


Thanks for any input you can provide!

[James Zhu]

http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/Sawing/Machines/

I would buy Hammer slider, they have two sliders under your budget $4500.

In theory, Hammer Slider should run on a 30amp circuit, and dust collector is powered by a separate 15amp or 20amp circuit.

I heard some folks run Hammer slider on a 20amp breaker, but not sure 30amp would be good enough for both Hammer slider and 1.5hp dust collector, it might work though.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Be glad you did not get the Grizzly. I just finished fixing the worm drive on the one at the shop where I teach. I also spent last weekend fixing the worm drive. It has a c clip instead of a bolt at the end to keep it from overextending. The c clip comes off easily. I also do not like the fence on that thing. It is too short, and has no t-slots.

I am no fan of Saw Stop. This has been hashed out here before so just search for Saw Stop wet wood or Google it. They are quality saws otherwise.

I li have a friend with a Powermatic in a shop that has only two walls and gets rained in all the time. I am amazed at how well this saw performs as abused as it is. It cuts like a dream. Go with the Powermatic.

[John Coloccia]

Just a couple of things about the Sawstop. It's made in Taiwan, not the USA. Still, the fit and finish is excellent. I just bought my second Sawstop...a 3HP PCS. The brake cartridge thing is a non-issue. It takes a few seconds to replace the brake.

If I had the room, and felt like experiencing the learning curve, I would love to have a slider. I'd love a combo machine, actually. Maybe I'll have the room in my next shop. The thing is, I'm very comfortable making jigs and using a western table saw, and I really just didn't want to experience the learning curve with a slider because I don't do many simple, straight line cuts. I have an awful lot of jigs, and some special blades, that are very easy to make work on a regular saw.

edit:
meant to say DON'T do many simple cuts

[Mark Carlson]

Cool decision to have. I have a General cabinet saw and my upgrade path choices would be a slider and then the sawstop. I have a jessem sliding table which I love and a European style slider would be a huge improvement. The hammer K3 looks just about perfect for me. If you want a cabinet saw get the sawstop because everyone can make a mistake and I've heard its well made.

[Brian Henderson]

I have a PM2000 so I can only say from experience that it's an excellent saw. Besides, since you say you want a saw that you can keep for 20 years, why are you worrying about resale value anyhow? I don't plan to sell my saw any time soon and when I finally do, it'll be because it doesn't work anymore. I've never had any problems with the DC but since I don't have anything to compare it to, take that as you will.

[Jim Andrew]

There is an ad for a Minimax combo on the classified section, why don't you call and see if it is sold? It very well may be sold, but it is a saw shaper planer surfacer mortiser, advertised for 6000. If it had been last year, I would have been taking a road trip.

[Justin Ludwig]

I own the PM2000. It's a good saw with fair dust collection. I think the DC would be better once I tie in my cabinet saw to the main DC, it's current only drawing off the overarm and I have a 1hp bag under the table pulling dust/chips from the cabinet. I have to clean the inside cabinet about once every 150ln ft of cabinets built (that's up to 500 bd ft of solid wood ripped and 40 or more sheets of plywood cut up with a full kerf blade). Using a full kerf blade makes a considerable difference in chip and dust output.
Out of the box the table wasn't square with the blade. It's an easy adjustment (4 bolts and a dead blow hammer). I fought and fought the UHMW fence for getting it square. I was getting partitions 23-1/4" x 29-1/4" that were out of square 1/32". This is unacceptable to me. After fighting for over a year with aligning and realigning, I finally found that the UHMW was concave in the middle by .007 and this would compound as I broke down 4x8 sheets of ply. Last month I took it off and threw it away. I made a fence edge out of MDF and laminate. It's twice as smooth and I have no more square problems. I couldn't find anything online that showed people having the same problem, so I chalk it up to my luck. I'll be dedicating this saw to hardwood and dados when I purchase a slider or panel saw.

[Robert Chapman]

I have a SawStop Professional - it is an exceptionally well made saw with the best safety feature available. I have a JessEm slider on the left side of the saw and a cast iron router table on the right side. I build furniture and the small JessEm slider is all that I need. I know that JessEm doesn't make them anymore but they are around. I really like my set up.

[Clint Baxter]

I have the PM 2000 as well and have been quite happy with it. As stated, dust collection is okay, but can be improved with Shark Guard over arm dust collection, as I did. I replaced my stock fence with an Incra. I didnt have any serious issues withe stock fence but love the accuracy and repeat ability of the Incra. Only way I'd be getting rid of it would be if I upgraded to a slider. Good luck with your choice. Don't think you'd be unhappy with any of them.

Clint

[Keith Hankins]

Well, you will get a lot of opinions. I am a SS owner. I have the 5hp ICS and love it. Love the wide opening and can get my big paws in there easily. The design of the quick change lever for riving knife and dc collection for the blade. I think now they giving it away free as part of the 10 year anniversary. Get it it will be worth it. I had to pay for mine. Also the heavy duty base is worth it. Best Ive used. DC is great, cut is great, and don't worry about the time to change cartridge on the dado set, it will only take a couple of min max. The safety feature is worth it. You will not regret the SS.

[Frank Pratt]

I'm shopping for a table saw myself & have pretty much decided on the SawStop. Very expensive but it's the nicest saw I've seen so far. The flesh sensing feature isn't really a + or - for me.

[John Coloccia]

Their customer service is fantastic, also. My latest interaction with them is because one table extension came rusted and a bit out of square (bad day at the machine shop for sure!). It took all of 10 minutes on the phone, and they sent a new one out the same day. I think that was a Thursday, and I think it showed up at my door on Monday. Being my second SS, I've had several interactions with their customer service, and every time goes the same way.

[Earl Rumans]

I am not a big fan of Saw Stop, just due to their marketing position and when I got my new saw last year I went with the 5 hp Jet Xacta. I have been very happy with my Jet Xacta and Incra fence setup. If I had the money I would have gotten the Saw Stop ICS or a slider style saw, for the safety factor. At my age I couldn't justify the cost of the SS, or a slider but if you have the money and are talking about a 20 year saw, then either get the SS or a slider, like the Hammer or MM. One other factor to consider, you are talking about resale value but you may want to consider the Government factor. As crazy as things are getting these days, if SS gets their requested legislation pushed through, saws without the brake tech may become illegal to be sold.

[Jim Andrew]

40 years ago I did 2 years as a teacher in a school shop. Would have liked to had a sawstop in that shop, as the kids just could hardly stop themselves from reaching to grab the scrap that was cut off on the table saw. One kid actually reached in to grab the scrap and took off the tip of his thumb. Since I went into construction and cabinet shop work, I have never seen anyone reach into the blade for the scrap. After those 40 years I still have all my fingers. Maybe if you are a beginner the saw stop table saw is for you, if you can't resist picking the scrap off the saw. Personally I have a unisaw and a Hammer slider.

[glenn bradley]

Ah, the fun of making that final choice. I can't speak to the slider. The PM gets raves from lots of folks and it is a quality saw and was on my list. Reports were that fit and finish were superior to a lot of the rough PM stuff you see out there today. I did go with the Saw Stop 3HP, 52" PCS and it is also true to the reports on fit and finish.

Inflammatory "safety" system discussions aside, the cartridge change is a non-issue as is wet wood or any other questionable material. The cartridge swap adds about 15 seconds to my dado setup. The override function solves any questionable material or jig issues by letting you do a cut and then checking the display to see if the system would have triggered. If the material is a problem, leave the system in override and do you cuts. If it is not, let the system turn back on. The point is that you get to find out without any physical or financial impact.

A slider is always an interesting option. For my work the benefit versus footprint didn't pan out. If you do things differently (and you almost assuredly do) the slider may fit like a glove. As stated, this is a good problem to have; deciding what to buy. Just keep going over what you will do, how you do it and look for the machine that best fits that combination.

P.s. I also found it helpful to outline the machine's footprint on the shop floor with blue painter's tape and walk around it as if operating the machine. Sounds silly but, surprisingly eye-opening.

[Keith Hankins]

40 years ago I did 2 years as a teacher in a school shop. Would have liked to had a sawstop in that shop, as the kids just could hardly stop themselves from reaching to grab the scrap that was cut off on the table saw. One kid actually reached in to grab the scrap and took off the tip of his thumb. Since I went into construction and cabinet shop work, I have never seen anyone reach into the blade for the scrap. After those 40 years I still have all my fingers. Maybe if you are a beginner the saw stop table saw is for you, if you can't resist picking the scrap off the saw. Personally I have a unisaw and a Hammer slider.

Won't challenge you on anything you said except, it's beginners that get hurt. Actually most folks that are in TS mishaps, are seasoned users. It takes a second of carelessness to change your life forever.

[Chuck Saunders]

You won't go wrong with any of those saws, and you will be happier than with the Grizzly. I would personally suggest the SawStop as it is a very well made saw and has the extra benefit of the added safety. To me that gives a slight edge over the PM. My experience with sliders is too limited to make any comment for or against.

[Ray DuBose]

I was in the same boat as you a couple of years ago, Looked originally at a PM2000 then at the Saw Stop. Ended up going with a Hammer K3.. At the end of the day I decided the Saw Stop designed a safer American Style Saw with the addition of the break but Euro Style saws take that element out of the equation since you are rarely if ever pushing your hands into the saw and your not standing in a spot that if there was kick back that it would hit you. I will say there is a learning curve having come from American Style saws in regards to jigs and such.

[James Baker SD]

I haven't read this whole thread so maybe somebody already said this. With that caveat, you say you don't use a lot of sheet goods AND you want a saw to last you 20 years. Are you sure you won't be doing sheet goods in the next 20 years? I would really take a good look at a slider as they are safe (for a saw) and cover all the bases of possible work.

[Judson Green]

Had a Powermatic 66 it was sweet! You could find one of those and save some cabbage for something else.

[Jon Nuckles]

Thank you for all the great input and advice. After going back and forth many times, I ordered the Sawstop PCS and added the overarm dust collection and mobile base. I think I would have been very happy with the PM2000, but decided the superior dust collection that the Sawstop is supposed to have was worth the price difference to me. My landlord is anti-woodworker because of dust concerns, and my dog comes to the shop with me and always finds the dustiest spot to bed down in. I was also swayed by Sawstop's reputation for customer service and fit and finish. I did try to contact Hammer about their small slider, but got no response to my inquiry after a day and a half. It was just time to make a decision and move on with life and woodworking. Thanks again to all for taking the time to give me your opinions.

[Ole Anderson]

Sorry to see you cancelled your order for the 1023, I have had one for a dozen years and I love it. Granted I upgraded mine with a 52" HTH rails/fence (no longer available) and a SharkGuard. For the price of the SS, you could have had the 1023 plus another substantial piece of WW machinery.

I am sure you will love the SS. Congrats. And a big "YOU SUCK". :)

[Keith Hankins]

You will love it! congrats and please post pictures and your review when It comes in.

[John Schweikert]

Jon,

You will enjoy your new PCS. I just assembled mine last weekend. It took about 6 hours to unpack, assemble and get running. I took it slow and wanted to make sure it was done right and only once.

The quality of the saw far exceeds my expectations. I chose the industrial base with conversion kit for the PCS and the 30" premium PCS fence to save space. The entire table top is within .002" across all three cast iron portions and the laminate end piece. The saw required absolutely no adjustments whatsoever. The blade was +-.001" from the miter slot. The fence was already with a .001" to the miter slot as well. I couldn't have asked for anything more impressive than that.

Now it's time to make things. I have a long list of projects and holiday presents to work on. Also helping a friend buildout a new local bar.


https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/web-photos/ss_pcs.jpg

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Jim, I have a Hammer B3 Winner.

My vote is the Hammer slider.

- same footprint as a cabinet or contractor saw if you stick with the 49 inch crosscut capacity

- order it with dado and scoring saw, can't be added after purchase.

- the outrigger normally hangs on the wall unitl I need it, then it takes 2 minutes to put it on. Then you can crosscut stuff up to about 80 or 90 inches with a flip stop, and imagine being able to crosscut a 2 inch thick tabletop in one pass without effort.

- 3 position Euro fence is an enormous safety improvement over the Bies style fence.

- excellent dust collection with built in under and over blade collection, with actual dust collection spec's as to performance

- electronic blade brake for safety

- crown guard and riving knife, one set of safety features you won't discard

- 4 inch depth of cut

- 4HP motor that only needs a 20 ampere branch circuit

- ability to mount a stock feeder on a flip up bracket.

I would never go back to a cabinet saw after owning the Hammer. So much more capacity and capability in the same footprint.

Regards, Rod.

[Erik Loza]

...A small slider. ....I also don't use a lot of sheet goods in the furniture I build, so I may be paying for capacity I don't really need...

This is just my personal opinion. I wouldn't buy a slider unless you plan to do a significant amount of sheet goods in the future. And if you buy a slider, it should to be able to crosscut the short axis of a domestic panel (48" + change...) and have a frame table and outrigger big enough to support a panel on the long axis. Otherwise, you just bought a regular cabinet saw again.

I realize folks sometimes buy short sliders that perhaps aren't 48" or don't have the ability to support an 8' panel crosswise and that they may be totally happy with them but did they pay slider prices for just another cabinet saw? I mean from a functionality standpoint, not an "I bought it because of the brand" or "I just wanted one". Both of which are perfectly justifiable reasons but for the amount of money we all pay for this level of machinery, will you want there to be a compelling reason to have this or that machine exist in your shop? That's the real question.

For the person who does mostly solid wood and has X-many $$$ to spend, I would first look at as much bandsaw as they can afford, then a jointer/planer, and lastly the table saw. Again, just my personal opinion. Best of luck to the OP in his search.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Roy Turbett]

Thank you for all the great input and advice. After going back and forth many times, I ordered the Sawstop PCS and added the overarm dust collection and mobile base. I think I would have been very happy with the PM2000, but decided the superior dust collection that the Sawstop is supposed to have was worth the price difference to me. My landlord is anti-woodworker because of dust concerns, and my dog comes to the shop with me and always finds the dustiest spot to bed down in. I was also swayed by Sawstop's reputation for customer service and fit and finish. I did try to contact Hammer about their small slider, but got no response to my inquiry after a day and a half. It was just time to make a decision and move on with life and woodworking. Thanks again to all for taking the time to give me your opinions.

Jon -

I just picked up a 7 year old Sawstop commercial model that was lacking the riving knife, dust collection upgrade kit and a dado cartridge. What's impressed me most so far is the great the customer service. I called tech support yesterday and the phone was answered by a real person on the second ring. Better yet, the real person was very knowledgeable and gave me all the part numbers I needed. I called the parts department today and got the same excellent service and saved some money because the parts manager was giving the dust collection upgrade away for free if you buy a new table insert. (Apparently the dust collection upgrade doesn't fit properly with the original black table insert so you need to get the new red one.) He also took time to change their records to show me as the current owner. And when he transfered me to the cashier, she greeted me by name and told me my parts would be shipped today. All told, a great experience.

Roy

[Keith Hankins]

You are a lucky dog! I spent a year looking for a used ICS. They just never pop up or are gone in a flash. Finally gave in and bought a new one. Love it.

[Brent Ring]

Does not sound like anyone has suggested the Grizzly G6023X slider, and there are quite a few people here that have them, myself included, and are very happy with them. I personally dont use alot of sheet goods and built furniture primarily. There was a learning curve, and you can make alot of jigs for the slider as well. I really like all the benefits of mine, the price was around $3K delivered, and I would suggest you give it some consideration. For me, It was the slider or the Sawstop a couple of years ago. I have no buyers remorse :)

[Roy Turbett]

You are a lucky dog! I spent a year looking for a used ICS. They just never pop up or are gone in a flash. Finally gave in and bought a new one. Love it.

I got lucky and found mine 200 miles away doing a nationwide Craiglist search. The guy I got it from decided he didn't need the new technology and took my 3 hp Unisaw in trade plus some cash. Said he had 13 emails the first day he had it listed.

[rudy de haas]

hi:

I'd suggest revisiting Grizzly - the cash you save might be enoyugh to get a good something else (shaper? better dust control?) . They're having a sale in their Washington store this week or next (I don't actually read the ads they email out) and just because they claim not to have your product ready for shipping, doesn't mean they don't have any in the stores.

When I was looking (I eventually bought the Craftex Canadian version of the G0690) I thought that G0700 (on paper, they didn't have one on display) the best engineered new product out there for less than insane amounts of money - and the guy in the store said they'd probably upgrade the fence for cheap if I bought the bundle. Their 5HP, $3K, G0623 series sliders seemed cool products too, but that's not a format I wanted so I didn't spend much time on them - both made in Taiwan.

If you're doing veneers the scroring blade thing on the 700 might be of real value to you -again, not something I cared about so not explored to any depth - but, bottom line, if you like the 1023, you will really like the "extreme" series saws and save a lot over Hammer, Powermatic, or sawstop.