Edge jointing long boards, an experiment

[Jim Matthews]

On reading an earlier thread, I built Terry Gordon's edge jointing jig
to see if I might reproduce similar results. Links to hizzoner's YouTube
page will be attached, below.

Terry's method uses a longer handplane, turned on it's side and a
flat sheet of plywood with a series of dog holes inline.

The workpiece is clamped to the sheet, between dogs and the jig
set atop your bench. With a little of the board protruding,
the plane is run along the edge, with the side of the plane
down on the benchtop. The plane is run along the jointing
surface until it stops cutting (the plane sole runs up against the base).

It's a shooting board.

I have just completed a split top bench which as a reclaimed top.
That top has a crown in the center, it isn't flat along it's length.

Terry Gordon's method requires a flat standard surface, so lacking that,
I doubled two sheets of plywood and drilled through holes to lock it to the benchtop.

The plane runs along Teak scraps (boatyard salvage) that are waxed.
The difficulties are two; keeping the workpiece fixed so that lateral
forces don't push it off and keeping the plane perpendicular to the top face of the jig.

It's MUCH easier than the matchplaning method I've been using.

The only downside is that it produces very sharp edges.
I got an unscheduled manicure, last night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbkdWMIBhNc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbkdWMIBhNc

(Note that in the second video, TG puts screws through the jig, straight into his bench... not for the squeamish.)


http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp225/Anji12305/Shop%20jigs/P1040942_zpsb8e70d66.jpg

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp225/Anji12305/Shop%20jigs/P1040941_zps60cb4dd6.jpg

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp225/Anji12305/Shop%20jigs/P1040946_zps22a387b7.jpg

[Brian Holcombe]

Cool shooting board Jim, is this set for a spring joint, or did you work the edge further after shooting?

[Reinis Kanders]

I made something similar a while ago also because my table is not flat and needed a better reference surface and I was not confident in my ability to plane true edges.
I used a thick oak stair tread for a bottom and plywood for the top, reason for the oak tread is to have less flex.
301128
After a year or so I find that I do not care for it that much. Biggest issue is that the two surfaces are not co-planar by default so getting plane to run consistently perpendicular to the top surface is not easy. What this jig does well though is it helps to plane parts to the same exact width if one uses a third piece of wood as a fence, but having this the same width when hand tool woodworking is not critical as far as I am concerned.

[Darrell LaRue]

Jointing long boards? That's something I need help with.
Then I was somewhat disappointed when I read the actual post. It's only a wee little board he's jointing. I sometimes have to joint longer stuff.
This is the kind of thing I need help with.

301130

Darrell
time to clean the shop to get ready for the Galoot Xmas BBQ

[Jim Matthews]

Cool shooting board Jim, is this set for a spring joint, or did you work the edge further after shooting?

I'm trying to get the boards dead straight.
This was the first result directly from the jig - no testing.

The jointed edges appeared square and straight the night I made them.
Either I did not notice the gap when I made it,
or the thinner board "sprung" overnight.

Either way, this is a real improvement over what I've done freehand.
Fast, too.

Ten minutes to set up and shoot both edges, tops.

[Jim Matthews]

301128
After a year or so I find that I do not care for it that much. Biggest issue is that the two surfaces are not co-planar by default so getting plane to run consistently perpendicular to the top surface is not easy.

I really like the T-track. My current trouble is keeping boards that aren't squared in place.
There's a natural tendency for the board to move away from the plane.

I was deliberate in setting the run where the plane travels on its side
parallel to the top bearing surface where the workpiece is clamped.

Were I to make another (or retrofit this one) I would cover the plane chute with UHMW plastic.

[Jim Matthews]

Jointing long boards? That's something I need help with.
Then I was somewhat disappointed when I read the actual post. It's only a wee little board he's jointing. I sometimes have to joint longer stuff.
This is the kind of thing I need help with.

301130

Darrell
time to clean the shop to get ready for the Galoot Xmas BBQ

Look at the second video linked.
Terry Gordon made one to handle 8' lengths.

Get the guide board straight and you're halfway there.

Dunno how well this works on something longer than the average minivan...:rolleyes:

[Reinis Kanders]

[QUOTE=Jim Matthews;2340333]I really like the T-track. My current trouble is keeping boards that aren't squared in place.
There's a natural tendency for the board to move away from the plane.

Thanks. To be honest t-track clamp by itself can slip unless care is taken or it is really cranked down. Sandpaper would help I guess.

[Jim Matthews]

I wouldn't think it should be necessary.

In the videos that started me thinking, Terry Gordon just has his
workpieces held by a bench dog and tail vise.

I suspect he's got both better technique, and a sharper blade than me.
I'm going to try mine with adjustable stops held by holdfasts.

I don't want to drill more holes, but I might use a Veritas planing stop
if the adjustable stops drift.

My money is on the blade being the limiting factor.

[Stewie Simpson]

Another trick you can employ to help with gluing up panels like this is to joint both boards at the same time.
If you have two boards and sandwich them together so that the edges that will be glued together are both up, then getting that perfectly square doesn’t really matter. Since you are jointing both boards at the same time, any error will exist on both sides of the joint and be complementary, so the resulting fit will be flat, even if each edge is not square to its face.

[Derek Cohen]

Jim, good work on the shooting board.

Stewie, there is an advantage for some in the shooting board above match planing. In match planing (which is what I do), you still have to account for a match along one axis, the length. What match planing does is account for the side-to-side angle. The shooting board looks like it will deal with both.

I was earlier going to suggest that a fence on a jointer would be a better jig than the shooting board as it able to deal with any size boards - and having a wooden plane (HNT Gordon), this would be an easy addition (pics below). However, a fence does not automatically provide a flat length, only a square edge.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/CoopersJointer_html_632ddcb1.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/CoopersJointer_html_m7e60af87.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/CoopersJointer_html_9acf06d.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Matthews]

From the original post, above -

"It's MUCH easier than the matchplaning method I've been using."

Match planing doesn't redress the problems arising from twist, or cup
created by the plane. The point of the shooting board is to confine the
cutting angle to one continuous plane.

The benefit is that the blade stops cutting when the plane reaches the square edge of the shooting board.
When no more shavings appear - the edge should be straight and square.

That's the theory, anyway.

[Phil Thien]

Answer a question for a non-neander that is curious: What prevents the plane from cutting into the shooting board itself?

That is a pretty neat idea (a long shooting board). Very similar to my straight-line ripper for my table saw.

[Stewie Simpson]

Stewie, there is an advantage for some in the shooting board above match planing. In match planing (which is what I do), you still have to account for a match along one axis, the length. What match planing does is account for the side-to-side angle. The shooting board looks like it will deal with both.

Hi Derek. Isn't that the reason why a long jointer plane is the plane of choice when match planing.

[Derek Cohen]

Stewie, there is an advantage for some in the shooting board above match planing. In match planing (which is what I do), you still have to account for a match along one axis, the length. What match planing does is account for the side-to-side angle. The shooting board looks like it will deal with both.

Hi Derek. Isn't that the reason why a long jointer plane is preferable to use when match planing.

Stewie, if you attempt to joint an edge which is higher in the centre, long plane or not, all you will achieve is planing a curve. It is necessary first to remove the "hump". Long jointer planes only help when there is a low in the centre of the board. It is necessary to first create this situation.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pat Barry]

Jim,
Thanks for going through the effort to show this method. It was poo poo'd by the masters on a previous thread as unnecessary but I personally think this is the only way to fly (using hand tools). Numerous comments such as "you need to learn to see straight" - complete nonsense in my opinion - any two year old can see straight. A reference point for straight coupled with a reference point for square such as this method provides is a method for the masses. The masters can work unassisted and get great results - that's why they are masters. I'm happy being a hobbyist that appreciates a little help.

[David Weaver]

If you want to use a jig, that's fine. Dismissing comments from people who actually use mostly or only hand hand tools is foolish when you don't.

[Gary Muto]

Answer a question for a non-neander that is curious: What prevents the plane from cutting into the shooting board itself?

That is a pretty neat idea (a long shooting board). Very similar to my straight-line ripper for my table saw.

Planes (Except for rabbeting plane and shoulder planes) do not have blades that extend to the side edges of the sole. There is a little width (2-4 mm) between the outside edge of the blade and the outside surface of the plane side that will not be planed. Any part of the shoooting board above that would be planed but you still have that thin reference.

[Jim Matthews]

Jim,
Thanks for going through the effort to show this method. It was poo poo'd by the masters on a previous thread as unnecessary but I personally think this is the only way to fly (using hand tools). Numerous comments such as "you need to learn to see straight" - complete nonsense in my opinion - any two year old can see straight. A reference point for straight coupled with a reference point for square such as this method provides is a method for the masses. The masters can work unassisted and get great results - that's why they are masters. I'm happy being a hobbyist that appreciates a little help.

I found this to be MUCH simpler, and it's a crutch - no doubt.

My vision is fading, and it's difficult for me to get a good look at what I'm doing,
while I'm in the middle of the process. I can't see straight, and that's where this shines -
I don't need to. The shooting board defines the plane of the last pass, and that has been
verified as straight - a reference.

The chief advantage of this is that it limits how much I can "twist" the plane as I go.
The worst I can to is tip the blade toward the workpiece. By design, that's limited to one side.

Can I do it the other way?
Sure.

Will I, again?
Only if the board is less than 20" long.

Would my teachers whip my lazy posterior for making this?
* meh *

I do this maybe 12 hours in a week. It's a time saver.

[Stewie Simpson]

Stewie, if you attempt to joint an edge which is higher in the centre, long plane or not, all you will achieve is planing a curve. It is necessary first to remove the "hump". Long jointer planes only help when there is a low in the centre of the board. It is necessary to first create this situation.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek. What your saying is true but comes back to good technique and understanding what your doing. That is why you sight along the edge 1st to determine whether your dealing with a round or a hollow. That then determines your starting point. Its not rocket science. The technique has been used for generations of tradesmen. A shooting board on the other hand was never designated for that sole purpose and was primarily used for end grain work. Because others have abandoned the traditional technique is not the fault of the technique, but a lack of proper understanding and application by those that abandoned it. The belies the difference between a woodworker that had to utilize these skills for a living, and those that practice it for a hobby. One repeats and again repeats that practice until he gets it right. The other doesn't have the time or self determination to learn it correctly, and generally abandons that proven technique, and looks for another alternative that will remove a lot of the skill base.

Its no different to why their is such a healthy market in new designed hand planes. They are dealing with a market of primarily hobbyist that aren't prepared spend the time learning how to properly fettle their earlier made planes, and are some what drawn into the sales pitch that these newer planes will solve all your problems. That may seem the case initially when all the parts are brand new, but the primary failure of proper understanding will again rear its ugly head when that newer plane reaches the point of requiring it own fettling, and then its off to purchase a newer version of hand plane that promises them that elusive pot of gold.

I am at a loss sometimes in trying to understanding those that will only dedicate a short period of time learning a new technique, then when all is not as it should be, blame that proven technique, or the tool being used, as the sole reasons for their failings.

Heck. If you want to take away all the skill required, place the boards together with a slight overlap, and cut through both boards at the same time. Its a proven technique used in veneer work that result in 2 matching edges for a precise butt joint.

Life sucks sometimes. And if you want to master a new technique, there is a natural requirement you put in the hard yards .

Stewie;

ps. Derek. I do like the look of that HNT Gordon Jointer Plane. It looks superb. What timber is the body made from. Also. Looking at how the key way of the 2 piece blade has been filled in (brazed ??) I am assuming its not the original blade. Did the plane originally have a wooden wedge.

[Pat Barry]

If you want to use a jig, that's fine. Dismissing comments from people who actually use mostly or only hand hand tools is foolish when you don't.
Like I said, masters do not need any such assistance to achieve perfection. My comments are very relevant for those not quite so well endowed with handtool expertise. I thought that came across very clearly in my posting.

[Prashun Patel]

Jim,
Thanks for going through the effort to show this method. It was poo poo'd by the masters on a previous thread as unnecessary but I personally think this is the only way to fly (using hand tools). Numerous comments such as "you need to learn to see straight" - complete nonsense in my opinion - any two year old can see straight. A reference point for straight coupled with a reference point for square such as this method provides is a method for the masses. The masters can work unassisted and get great results - that's why they are masters. I'm happy being a hobbyist that appreciates a little help.

With due respect, i too am a hobbyist and i found the advice to learn to see straight a revelation. I personally appreciate the more skilled guys pushing me to go the next level.

[David Weaver]

I'm a hobbyist like most others on here. I just don't assume that I can't do something if I fail at it a few times first.

[Derek Cohen]

....
ps. Derek. I do like the look of that HNT Gordon Jointer Plane. It looks superb. What timber is the body made from. Also. Looking at how the key way of the 2 piece blade has been filled in (brazed ??) I am assuming its not the original blade. Did the plane originally have a wooden wedge.

Thanks Stewie. That jointer is one I built. It is not by HNT Gordon. Terry (Gordon) makes fantastic planes - not to ignore the fact he is a really good bloke (I have had a stand alongside him at a few woodshows, and we have been friends for some years) - so to confuse one of my planes for his is a compliment!

The blade in question is 3" wide and made by Berg in Sweden. It was a gift, and I decided to build a plane around it. I am not sure that was a sensible endeavour as it was an absolute bear to flatten. Really hard steel. Since I was using it as a singe iron plane in a small (36") cooper's jointer, I infilled the slot with brass ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/NowTHISisablade!_html_m2d659a57.jpg

The lever cap came from Peter McBride, who sent it to me a few years earlier. Being 3" wide I had no use for it before this build, when the two seemed a match made in heaven ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/NowTHISisablade!_html_m19ce3771.jpg

It is a LARGE plane, hence the fence as it is otherwise difficult to balance (usually used upsidedown). Here it is alongside a Stanley #7 jointer ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/CoopersJointer_html_m36d2149a.jpg

Regarding traditional jointing technique, watch out for the review(s) I will be posting shortly on the new Veritas Custom Jointer Plane. This will contain a few jointing techniques.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pat Barry]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbkdWMIBhNc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbkdWMIBhNc

(Note that in the second video, TG puts screws through the jig, straight into his bench... not for the squeamish.)
http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp225/Anji12305/Shop%20jigs/P1040946_zps22a387b7.jpg
Hey Jim, these two links are identical. Could you please post the second link again?

[Brian Holcombe]

Jim,
Thanks for going through the effort to show this method. It was poo poo'd by the masters on a previous thread as unnecessary but I personally think this is the only way to fly (using hand tools). Numerous comments such as "you need to learn to see straight" - complete nonsense in my opinion - any two year old can see straight. A reference point for straight coupled with a reference point for square such as this method provides is a method for the masses. The masters can work unassisted and get great results - that's why they are masters. I'm happy being a hobbyist that appreciates a little help.

I can't 'see straight' so I use long precision ground straight edges. I find a feeler gauge to be more revealing than attempting to eyeball the edge in my case.


I'm trying to get the boards dead straight.
This was the first result directly from the jig - no testing.

The jointed edges appeared square and straight the night I made them.
Either I did not notice the gap when I made it,
or the thinner board "sprung" overnight.

Either way, this is a real improvement over what I've done freehand.
Fast, too.

Ten minutes to set up and shoot both edges, tops.

Nice, I saw Terry's video as well, I like this idea especially for shorter boards. Likely that the board sprung overnight.

[Prashun Patel]

Been thinking about this...It's not that I was able to see 'straight'. But I was able to see "curved". Spotting the offensive parts of my edge was easier than I thought - especially since the offenses for me are usually around the leading or trailing edges.

[Pat Barry]

Using the eyeball method, especially for relatively long boards, is fraught with difficulty and tedium isn't it? I mean, you are forced to constantly plane and check and plane and check, hopefully working down those high points until you get something resembling a straight edge. Now complicate that by trying to get two straight edges to use for a glue-up and nevermind the issue of squareness.

Now for some folks who are of the right mindset, wherein they can apply their artistic and crafty methods, coupled with a ton of experience and feel, they can no doubt get satisfactory results wherein two long boards that fit each other properly enough for a glue-up are obtained. I DO NOT DOUBT that this is possible. Folks such as yourself, Warren, George, and anyone else who wishes to be included in this master category can do it that way and need not consider that there are other, maybe even better, ways to accomplish the task. I submit that the edge jointing guide provides just such a better method (ie: crutch as per the experts connotation) for those less experienced, and or less willing to approach the task in a check and do/redo type of method. I do find such approaches as check and do/redo to be tedious and fraught with error. Having the reference points for square and straight will get the job done for me much quicker and much more accurately.

What I have learned from the masters reading this and previous threads, is that we should trust our eye, not trust the plane itself, take the time to enjoy the process -- to me, that's just not the way I prefer to work. Its far too craftsy with far too much variability, but again that's me.

Why can't we trust the tool? Because the blade sticks out of the tool sole by a small amount, so that in order to make a straight edge cut the user must compensate for the tool. Warren discussed this in some detail in an earlier thread as I recall. This critical aspect of the process, compensating for the tool itself, is what separates the men from the boys and is the critical skill in manipulating the tool that the masters have learned (school of hard knocks).

The edge jointing fixture which is the focus of this thread eliminates that issue entirely. Using the fixture to provide the final reference for straight means that the user doesn't need to be as skilled in technique. I think that's perfect for hobbyists content to be hobbyists. Of course learning to edge joint by using that very crutch will impede the real mastery of the process. I'm OK with that.

[Brian Ashton]

The blade in question is 3" wide and made by Berg in Sweden. It was a gift, and I decided to build a plane around it. I am not sure that was a sensible endeavour as it was an absolute bear to flatten. Really hard steel. Since I was using it as a singe iron plane in a small (36") cooper's jointer, I infilled the slot with brass ...
Derek


Curious to know how you got the brass to stay put in the blade

[Brian Holcombe]

I'll have to give that more practice, I'm very used to relying on a feeler gauge and straight edge after spending my early years in a machine shop.

[Jim Koepke]

Here is something Junior (Harry Strasil) posted 8 years ago:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?43195-I-just-don-t-get-it-All-the-fuss-about-jointing-that-is

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

It eliminates the need entirely, and I love shooting boards, but the chicken and egg problem comes when one has to joint something longer than 8 feet.

[Jim Koepke]

It eliminates the need entirely, and I love shooting boards, but the chicken and egg problem comes when one has to joint something longer than 8 feet.

When I have to joint something that long my tendency is to go the easy way and do a tongue and groove.

jtk

[Kees Heiden]

8 feet is a lot! I'm not sure if I could do that without some jigging help. But shorter boards aren't too difficult.

When I build my kitchen I wasn't very advanced yet on this handtool journey. I needed to joint about 40 boards. My powertools are especially crappy, so I couldn't trust these. So I made myself a long grain shooting board. The first thing I learned is that the build in fence of the shooting board wasn't very helpfull. The boards probably shifted too much under the clamps. But using the shooting board solely to help with keeping the cut perpendicular and then using the stopped shaving technique learned from Charlesworth's books, to keep the joint straight was indeed very usefull. A couple of not so nice issues, the vintage blade in my jointer needed to be sharpened often because all the wear was in one spot and the handling position of the plane was uncomfortable and painfull after a while.

After that project I never used this shooting board again. I think it's still somewhere in my woodpile. I could have used that project to learn myself a new technique. But I decided to play it safe and only learned it later. And then it proved not to be too bad at all. You shouldn't think and analyse too much, just get on and practice. In the end it is all pretty logical.

[Jim Matthews]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw_scdtQoFE

[Reinis Kanders]

+1 on Kees response. I went through the same experience with the long grain shooting board.
Same can be said for sawing straight and true. I only got better once I comitted myself to ignore my sliding miter saw (which BTW is very precise).
It is pretty liberating to be able to do these things without machines and all the setup always involved and the mess they generate. One just has to visit power tools forum where lot of questions are asked because folks do not trust their hands to do the job.


8 feet is a lot! I'm not sure if I could do that without some jigging help. But shorter boards aren't too difficult.

When I build my kitchen I wasn't very advanced yet on this handtool journey. I needed to joint about 40 boards. My powertools are especially crappy, so I couldn't trust these. So I made myself a long grain shooting board. The first thing I learned is that the build in fence of the shooting board wasn't very helpfull. The boards probably shifted too much under the clamps. But using the shooting board solely to help with keeping the cut perpendicular and then using the stopped shaving technique learned from Charlesworth's books, to keep the joint straight was indeed very usefull. A couple of not so nice issues, the vintage blade in my jointer needed to be sharpened often because all the wear was in one spot and the handling position of the plane was uncomfortable and painfull after a while.

After that project I never used this shooting board again. I think it's still somewhere in my woodpile. I could have used that project to learn myself a new technique. But I decided to play it safe and only learned it later. And then it proved not to be too bad at all. You shouldn't think and analyse too much, just get on and practice. In the end it is all pretty logical.

[Winton Applegate]

I think realistically speaking :
If I were to rely on a "planing jig" this (http://www.grizzly.com/products/8-x-72-Jointer-with-Mobile-Base/G0656) is the fast way to go.
Too expensive ? Ha, ha I spent more than that on my BU Veritas hand plane jointer and my BD Lee Nielsen jointer (that I don’t really need to joint long boards).

Using a hand plane, the straight edge and square is the most accurate.

The planing jig is some where in between.

I got great results with the straight edge, flat bench and small square first few tries from the early days. Yes it takes a while. We call all that “tedium” FUN remember ?

To make the wooden shooting board and firstly the work bench to make the shooting board . . .
. . . well
to make those accurately one needs the straight edge and square.
one needs to learn how to use those to do the job.
May as well then take those skills forward and keep using them.
other wise
ha, ha,
The work bench and the jigs are more accurately and more beautifully made than the cabinets they are use to make. That would be a shame. I think.

I hear you about the vision thing.

One thing you discover is (the masters don’t stoop and look so much as rock and feel) you can just rock the straight edge on the high spots or the board edge on the FLAT bench to find the high spots and then plane choosing your number of strokes according to how much it rocks. For the gaps, as was said before use the feeler gauge.
Can use a jeweler’s visor to sight the gaps between the two boards for final fit up once there are no high spots, except on the ends as in your wenge / gap photo.
One has to make trade offs ; time, physical limitations, money.

Don’t say the jig can be as good as the “master’s” tools and really it doesn’t take a master to learn to use them as David said.

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ME AND A MASTER IS THE MASTER DOES IT IN HALF THE TIME (or a quarter of the time) and does it with out thinking. I throw my all into it and eventually pull it off.

Vary satisfying.
Though I would starve if I had to do it for a living.

PS: as you can see in the next to last photo I have a similar edge planing jig. I don't use it much; mostly for quick rough around the house projects rather than glue up edge joints.
PPS: Speaking of satisfying how many of you have ever seen an eleven pound chocolate bar ? Nice Belgium chocolate, not the cheep stuff. The coin is a quarter (yes I washed it first).