Byrd Shelix Cutter insert Wrong Orientation ?

[Elman Concepcion]

Hello everyone.
First post here.

Two weeks ago I ordered a Shelix cutterhead from Byrd tools.
I received it last Tuesday.
On Wednesday I dismantled my Jointer.
Put the Endcaps on the cutterhead and I was about to install it when I noticed that one of the cutting inserts was oriented in the wrong direction.

Can someone confirm that this is a manufacturing defect.
It does not seem right to me.
Byrd tools is out until Monday so I thought I’d ask here first.

Thanks

I’ve attached some pics:
click image to enlarge.

[Bill Orbine]

No, it doesn't look right.... but..... I think you should share the make and model of your jointer because someone else with the same jointer can share his/her experience with the Byrd head.

[CPeter James]

That corner sticking out is going to leave a really big scratch. I am puzzled as to how it got through many different manufacturing processes like that without someone noticing.

CPeter

[Steve Peterson]

I haven't removed any of the inserts on mine, but I think there is a recess that they sit in to orient properly. Remove the screw and see if it is just crooked or defective.

Steve

[Elman Concepcion]

It's a JET JJ-6s and the cutterhead is the Byrd Tools Generic 6" G6 / 63 - 63 mm cutting diameter.
It fits my jointer perfectly and the bearings went into the endcaps fairly easily.

Yes. Don't know how that cutter even made it out of manufacturing.
It's a mystery to me.
Where is their Quality Control.
The tool came without any sign certification.
I would hope Byrd Tools has an engineer at the end of the line signing off on these heads ?

This is rather annoying as it took two weeks to receive it after ordering.
And now I'll have to wait some more by sending it in and waiting again to receive a new one.
the whole thing will probably end up taking a month unless they have another one in stock.
But I don't think so as they told me it takes two weeks to deliver as the manufacturing is made to order.

[Elman Concepcion]

I haven't removed any of the inserts on mine, but I think there is a recess that they sit in to orient properly. Remove the screw and see if it is just crooked or defective.

Steve

I did remove the insert - look at my first picture - the insert bed is oriented towards the right in comparison with the previous insert bed which is oriented towards the left in agreement with all the other insert beds.

[Erik Loza]

Elman, I have no professional affiliation with Byrd but they have a pretty solid reputation in the industry. Have you contacted them directly to get a response? And by that I mean picking up the phone and calling a live person rather than just emailing. That would have been my first step. I hope you get quick resolution on this.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Bruce Page]

Elman, I have no professional affiliation with Byrd but they have a pretty solid reputation in the industry. Have you contacted them directly to get a response? And by that I mean picking up the phone and calling a live person rather than just emailing. That would have been my first step. I hope you get quick resolution on this.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

+1 on Erik's suggestion, contact Byrd directly.

[Tony Joyce]

Look fine to me. There is a company that makes an insert planner head that has half the inserts turned one way and half the other. I'm sure Byrd can explain why they do this better than I could. It will not cause a problem. It is done to prevent tearout on the end of the head.

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Tony

[Elman Concepcion]

Look fine to me. There is a company that makes an insert planner head that has half the inserts turned one way and half the other. I'm sure Byrd can explain why they do this better than I could. It will not cause a problem. It is done to prevent tearout on the end of the head.

301092

Tony


Thank You Very Much

That is very reassuring.
I so hope you are right.
I've looked around the net to see if I could see other examples of this configuration without success, hence my trepidation.
Most of the examples I see do not have the last insert pointing in the opposite direction.
Maybe this is something new Byrd tool is doing to address the ( tearout ) issue you have pointed out ?

I've not installed the head do to this mystery.
So I guess the final test is installing it and evaluating the performance.
I will wait till I talk to Byrd on Monday and then I'll report back here.

Thanks Again
Elman

[Elman Concepcion]

Ok - I finally found something that looks like my Cutterhead.
Thanks Tony Joyce for pointing me in the right direction.
I'm still a little iffy but I feel better all the same.

Here is the video.
Scroll to :30 - 2:52 and 5:23 - ▶ HelixHead High Performance Helical Cutterhead for Planers Moulders Jointers - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7UG5YfNHPY)

[Elman Concepcion]

Elman, I have no professional affiliation with Byrd but they have a pretty solid reputation in the industry. Have you contacted them directly to get a response? And by that I mean picking up the phone and calling a live person rather than just emailing. That would have been my first step. I hope you get quick resolution on this.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

As I previously commented.
They are not available until Monday due to the holidays.
That is why I posted here first.
Other wise I would not have felt the need to post at all - :cool:

[Wade Lippman]

In all of the pictures that others have posted, and in my Grizzly tools, there is only one way the cutter could be installed. On yours it looks like it can go on any which way. How do you replace them if there is no fixed orientation. (and if there is a fixed orientation, then you have your answer... the way it fits is correct.)

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Wade, when I look at his first photo it appears to me to be pretty obvious there is a fixed orientation.

[Jim Andrew]

On my 12" jointer, I lost 1/4" of width with the Byrd cutterhead. Maybe they turned that cutter to make the cutterhead take the full width.

[Tony Joyce]

Maybe they turned that cutter to make the cutterhead take the full width.

That could in fact be the reason.

[J.R. Rutter]

That is the normal and accepted way to build a shear insert cutterhead. In order to cut to the very edge, the insert leading edge has to extend all the way over. On one end of the cutterhead, this happens naturally. At the other end, the insert has to turn. Every shear cutting insert head that I own or have seen is the same way. The angle is the same as the rest of the inserts, so the cutting circle is exactly the same.

[scott vroom]

I'm confused. I have a Byrd cutterhead on my 8" jointer and it doesn't have that last cutter rotated...all cutters on all rows are identically oriented. Does Byrd make different style cutterheads?

[John Schweikert]

I installed a Shelix on my 6" Jet jointer this past January and the head does not have the goofy cutter oriented like that at the end. Either they changed the design on purpose or it's simply a manufacturing error. Only those two options exist. Just talk directly with Byrd. They will know instantly whether it's right or wrong and correct it if it's wrong.

[glenn bradley]

All attempts to make the OK are interesting. What will be even more interesting is to hear what Byrd says when you can reach them. Interesting conversation all around.

[Erik Loza]

No opinion on this but it seems unlikely to me that it's a manufacturing error. Curious to hear Byrd's response as well.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Elman Concepcion]

Good morning all.

This morning I got an email reply from Byrd.
Here is their response: “Sorry, Sir, for the confusion -- this is the new style of rabbeting insert we are doing now.”

Not much clarification other than it is for rabbeting.
I emailed back and ask for a technical explanation.
I also send them the same pics and questions I posted here concerning my measurements below.
Will post after I hear back.

I could not wait any longer so last night I installed the Cutterhead on my jointer and I took some measurements.
Unfortunately I think I found a problem with that last insert.

Below are some pics - I think they are self explanatory.

So, if I set my outfeed table to that last insert,
I can get a cut on that insert but then, I don’t get a cut on the rest of the inserts.

And, if I set my outfeed table to the other inserts then I get too deep of a cut with the last insert.

I should add that I removed the insert in question, made certain that the bed was clean with no debris.
I re-installed the insert per the installation instructions Byrd send me with the Cutterhead.
I did that three times to make sure it was not operator error.
After every change, I measured again, and I got the same reading.
All readings were done at the apex of the insert and at top dead center.

I also measured the insert itself and compared it to the previous insert on the same row and they measured the same at .590”
Rotating the insert 90˚ did not help as the insert is perfectly square and therefore also reads .590"

Every time I measured I got the same reading.
I’m at a loss.
Am I missing something ???

All comments greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Elman

Pic:
1 - on infeed table
2 - on previous insert - infeed table
3 - on strange insert - infeed table
4 - on outfeed table
5 - on previous insert - outfeed table
6 - on strange insert - outfeed table

[Erik Loza]

Just a guess: Is the rabbeting feature designed to be a little proud of the rest of the insert knives? That's the least-used area of the jointer head.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Elman Concepcion]

Just a guess: Is the rabbeting feature designed to be a little proud of the rest of the insert knives? That's the least-used area of the jointer head.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

That might be correct. At least I hope so.
If that is the case, it would have saved me a lot of time and aggravation if Byrd had a FAQ explaining the technicalities of their cutterheads.

I can certainly avoid that last insert, as I build classical guitars and mainly use the jointer for truing guitar neck blanks after the bandsaw.
The neck blanks are a little over 3" wide - so plenty of room left over.

Still waiting to hear back from Byrd.

[J.R. Rutter]

Can you interpret the gauge pictures for me (is it metric?), it has been years since I used one. How far is the tooth out and have you checked many others (remove and replace, like you have with that last insert)?

Here is a pic of one of my shear insert moulder heads. The head has to cut right up to the edge, so the last tooth is rotated to allow the leading edge of the insert to extend far enough.

I understand your concern, but this orientation is not uncommon. But if the head is out of tolerance, as it seems to be, then send it back.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Wkbl7l4QXcM/VHyZVugSGAI/AAAAAAAAGcc/wdcPIqvtXUQ/w532-h709-no/IMG_2707.JPG

[Ken Fitzgerald]

That might be correct. At least I hope so.
If that is the case, it would have saved me a lot of time and aggravation if Byrd had a FAQ explaining the technicalities of their cutterheads.

I can certainly avoid that last insert, as I build classical guitars and mainly use the jointer for truing guitar neck blanks after the bandsaw.
The neck blanks are a little over 3" wide - so plenty of room left over.

Still waiting to hear back from Byrd.

Elman,

I hope you called Byrd. Don' rely on email.

[Elman Concepcion]

Hi J.R. Rutter


Yes the gauge is in Millimeters
So that last insert is .09 MM or 0.0035” higher than the outfeed table.

I only removed and replace the rabbeting insert and it's neighbor to compare their sizes.
Did not see the need to do anymore.
I also have some extra replacement inserts they send me an they all measured exactly .590" X .590"
Same as what is in my cutterhead.

So .0035” (rabbeting insert) minus - .0013” (neighboring insert) equals = .0022”
This does not seem horrible except when you compare it with insert #4 which is precisely at Zero with the outfeed table - see below:

.09 mm or 0.0035” - So the rabbeting insert is 0.0035” higher than insert #4 on the same row.

Pic: explanation
1 - on infeed table - gauge index to zero
2 - on previous insert - infeed table - result zero
3 - on rabbeting insert - infeed table - result .08 mm or .0032”
4 - on outfeed table - gauge index to zero
5 - on previous insert - outfeed table - result a little less than zero
6 - on rabbeting insert - outfeed table - result .085 mm or .0034”

I went and re-measured all the inserts on that row.
Result:
1 = .090 mm or .0035” < rabbeting insert
2 = .035 mm or .0013
3 = .010 mm or .0004
4 = .000 mm or .0000
5 = .020 mm or .0008
6 = .020 mm or .0008

So, all the inserts are all very close or within .001” except for the rabbeting insert.
If Eric Loza is correct that this insert might be designed to be a little higher than the others and perhaps not intended to be use when doing plain old planing. Then I hope that last insert will not pose a problem.
Not sure if .0035” is too much.
I know I use to keep my old straight knives accurate to below .002”

And the plot thickens:
I went and measure all the other rows of inserts.
All inserts were with in .002” from each other except for three which were below the outfeed table + or - .002” not much,
but tells you that the promise of accurate inserts is wishful thinking.
I’m a little disillusioned. But what can you expect from someone that deals with thousandths of an inch ;-/

Hope all those numbers make sense. I’m getting a headache ;-)

Still waiting…
Wish they’d hurry up and give me a definitive answer !

[Elman Concepcion]

Elman,
I hope you called Byrd. Don' rely on email.

Thanks Ken

I haven't called them yet.
Don't want to seem pushy.
I send them a lot of info so I'm giving them time to digest - I guess.
I also link this thread so I hope they will take a peek.

If they don't get back to me today I'll call them tomorrow morning.

Thanks
Elman

[Erik Loza]

Elman, this is just my 2-cents. Feel free to accept or reject as you like. Again, I have no affiliation with Byrd, but I handle customer support for my own stuff, so...

I would pick up the phone and call them now. This is obviously bothering you and perhaps the answer is a simple one that could be handled in 5 minutes on the phone? Speak to a live person and explain the situation. Byrd is a family-run company and I suspect they don't (or won't) have time to browse chat forums or get bogged down in pages of threads and photos. If they're like any of us in the industry, there are probably dozens of emails that stacked up over the Thanksgiving weekend and who knows how long it will take to wade through all of them? Emails are low priority. Phone calls are high priority when it comes to customer support. That may not be what you want to hear but it's the truth. People can vent on chat forums but a chat forum is not going to solve your issue. Only Byrd can do that.

Emailing photos and stuff photos AFTER you make live contact with a support rep is fine but the person who chooses to INITIATE support via email is voluntarily putting themselves at the back of the line. I hope this makes sense and I hope you get speedy resolution.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[J.R. Rutter]

Hi J.R. Rutter


Yes the gauge is in Millimeters
So that last insert is .09 MM or 0.0035” higher than the outfeed table.

Thanks. I agree that a phone call is in order. These aren't really finishing heads, but you should be able to use the full width.

[Elman Concepcion]

Elman, this is just my 2-cents. Feel free to accept or reject as you like. Again, I have no affiliation with Byrd, but I handle customer support for my own stuff, so...

I would pick up the phone and call them now. This is obviously bothering you and perhaps the answer is a simple one that could be handled in 5 minutes on the phone? Speak to a live person and explain the situation. Byrd is a family-run company and I suspect they don't (or won't) have time to browse chat forums or get bogged down in pages of threads and photos. If they're like any of us in the industry, there are probably dozens of emails that stacked up over the Thanksgiving weekend and who knows how long it will take to wade through all of them? Emails are low priority. Phone calls are high priority when it comes to customer support. That may not be what you want to hear but it's the truth. People can vent on chat forums but a chat forum is not going to solve your issue. Only Byrd can do that.

Emailing photos and stuff photos AFTER you make live contact with a support rep is fine but the person who chooses to INITIATE support via email is voluntarily putting themselves at the back of the line. I hope this makes sense and I hope you get speedy resolution.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

Hi Erik

Thank you for sharing your experience with me.

Concerning Venting. I know I let out a little steam, but not unreasonably so, I think.
The reason I posted here as I said before in a previous post was due to Byrd not being available due to the holidays.

Maybe email is low priority, but Byrd responded to my email this morning at 8:06 AM
So I thought it polite to give them time to respond.

[Myk Rian]

Remove the screw and see if it is just crooked or defective.
Did you even look at the first picture?

[Bill Space]

Hi,

While it is most likely that firms put browsing forums like this as a low priority, that may be unfortunate for family run busnisses (small) like Byrd, as I am (was) about to buy a Byrd head for my 15" planer, but now it is on hold...

I look forward to hearing what is going on from their end.

Contrast(possibly) Papa Grizzly (Shiraz), who seems to find the time to browse forums, and post (certainly less frequently than he views content) occasionally.

My guess that there has been a design change...hard to imagine something that odd would not have been picked up before shipment.

[Alan Schaffter]

I'll start with two statements- (1) From observing other threads that show measurements, I take most of them with a grain of salt; and (2) There is a lot more to Byrd Shelix geometry than most realize.

It is generally accepted that for a cutter to leave a smooth surface, the cutting edge "must" follow a circle whose center of rotation is the same as the journal- all points on the cutting edges "must" be the same distance from the center of rotation. (It is not important that all points on the cutting edges are the same distance from the surface of the journal which is often not perfect since there is no need for it to be.) Unfortunately, to measure this we must use another reference point like the outfeed table. For those measurements to be accurate the outfeed table must parallel to the center of rotation of the journal.

Now, when you skew a straight segmented cutter to create a shear cut, all points on the cutting edge will no longer be the same distance from the center of rotation (see drawing). To correct for this, Byrd puts a slight radius to the edge of the cutter. But . . . . . that does not completely fix the problem since the radius is an approximation. And . . . . . to further complicate the issue, every Byrd journal, regardless of diameter, from small lunchbox planers with 2+" diameter journals to 20" planers with large 3" - 4" diameter journals, uses the same Byrd insert!!!

How can that be you ask? Shouldn't there be a unique insert cutter with a unique radius for each diameter of journal!?!?!? Well yes and no- manufacturing and stocking different sizes and shapes of insert cutters would be cost prohibitive. Using the same insert cutter, by the way, is why most Byrd Shelix heads leave small scallops in the stock- the size of the scallops depends on the diameter of the head. Also, as it turns out, the difference in the distance between all points on the curved cutting edges of cutters on all Byrd journals and center of rotation is very small for the most popular sizes of journal so the scallops are small enough that they can be removed with a light pass or two with 150 grit or card scraper. (By the way, I'm not making this stuff up. A Byrd engineer confirmed my analysis several years ago)

Theoretical insert with a straight edge. The same situation exists with an insert having a radius on the cutting edge, though it is less pronounced. (Replace "surface" with "center of rotation.")

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/Shelix-5.jpg

[John R Green]

Just installed Byrd Head in Powermatic 54A Jointer.
Looks just like yours.
Crooked tooth lines up with rabbet groove on my machine.

301347301348

[J.R. Rutter]

Just installed Byrd Head in Powermatic 54A Jointer.
Looks just like yours.
Crooked tooth lines up with rabbet groove on my machine.

301347301348

Like I said, and these ^^ pics show nicely, the outermost tooth has to be turned so that the very outside tip is doing the cutting, otherwise the inside corner of the rabbet would not be square. The overall spiral direction helps push the board towards the fence. If the spiral turned in the other direction, the outer tooth would not need to be rotated, but then the board would tend to push away from the fence, which is less than ideal.

The height tolerance on the tooth in OP's head is another, unrelated issue.

John: How does your head cut on the outside edge - any height related issue like a step left in the jointed face?

[John R Green]

John: How does your head cut on the outside edge - any height related issue like a step left in the jointed face?[/QUOTE]

John Green replies ......As flat as the "flat earth society thought the world was"

[Elman Concepcion]

Here is what the rabbeting insert is doing for me.
Square is Starrett #20 1.5"

[Elman Concepcion]

John: How does your head cut on the outside edge - any height related issue like a step left in the jointed face?

John Green replies ......As flat as the "flat earth society thought the world was"[/QUOTE]

Hi John
I must be unlucky.
Check out my previous picture.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Elman,

Your photograph is interesting.

Does the back side of the head align properly with the edge of the beds or does the backside of the cutter extend beyond the beds towards the bearing mounts?

Does the width of the new head assembly measure the same width as the old cutter head it's replacing or is it narrower?

It's almost like there is a spacer missing that would move the cutter head towards front or outside edge.

[Elman Concepcion]

Elman,

Your photograph is interesting.

Does the back side of the head align properly with the edge of the beds or does the backside of the cutter extend beyond the beds towards the bearing mounts?
Does the width of the new head assembly measure the same width as the old cutter head it's replacing or is it narrower?
It's almost like there is a spacer missing that would move the cutter head towards front or outside edge.

Hi Ken

I'm sorry.
I having difficulty interpreting what you are asking.
Can you please rephrase.

Thanks
Elman

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Do the cutters on the fence side of the cutter head line up with the edge of the fence side of the beds or does those same cutters extend beyond the fence side of the table?

Based on the photograph you posted, it would almost appear that the cutter head assembly should have a spacer on the shaft to move the entire assembly away from the fence side of the table.

Have you heard back from Byrd? Have you called Byrd?

[Elman Concepcion]

Do the cutters on the fence side of the cutter head line up with the edge of the fence side of the beds or does those same cutters extend beyond the fence side of the table?
Based on the photograph you posted, it would almost appear that the cutter head assembly should have a spacer on the shaft to move the entire assembly away from the fence side of the table.
Have you heard back from Byrd? Have you called Byrd?

The rabbeting insert sticks out from the outfeed table about 1/16"
Exactly like the photo John R Green posted.
I think that is how it is supposed to be, to give clearance for rabbeting.

I called Byrd Yesterday.
They said they had an engineer looking into it.

Have not heard back.

[Jim Andrew]

Wish the Byrd head I have on my G0609 jointer was built like that. I lost the rabbeting option when I installed my Byrd head.

[Elman Concepcion]

Wish the Byrd head I have on my G0609 jointer was built like that. I lost the rabbeting option when I installed my Byrd head.

You would not wish it if the rabbeting insert was .0035" higher than all the other inserts.

[Brian Gumpper]

Byrd has rabbeting inserts for the original design. You just need one at the edge.

[Brad Schafer]

fwiw, i have a byrd head. it's a couple yrs old. none of the cutters are oriented as Elman has shown. even so, the outermost cutter extends out far enough that edge cut coverage is provided. (i don't know about rabbeting; i always used the TS to cut rabbets.)

anyway, if this is not a defect, it is a recent(-ish) change.

[J.R. Rutter]

fwiw, i have a byrd head. it's a couple yrs old. none of the cutters are oriented as Elman has shown. even so, the outermost cutter extends out far enough that edge cut coverage is provided. (i don't know about rabbeting; i always used the TS to cut rabbets.)

anyway, if this is not a defect, it is a recent(-ish) change.

Cut a rabbet and report back...

[Elman Concepcion]

Update:

Byrd called me yesterday.

They tested a Cutterhead from the same batch as mine and confirmed the same problem with their rabbeting insert being set too high.

There making me another cutterhead and sending it next week.
Woo-hoo !
Problem solved.

Thank you everyone for the help and I hope this thread will help others in the future.
It certainly helped Byrd as I’m sure they would have had to deal with more unhappy customers if they had send out more of those out of spec cutterheads.

BTW the new cutterheads with the rabbeting inserts are only two months old.

Thanks
Elman

[Brad Schafer]

JR- can't cut a rabbet. unit here but not mounted. work got in the way. :mad: sorry.

Elman- attached pic shows orientation of cutters on the "most outside spirals". good luck figuring this out.

301596

and i see you already have. day late, dollar short. :)

[Elman Concepcion]

JR- can't cut a rabbet. unit here but not mounted. work got in the way. :mad: sorry.

Elman- attached pic shows orientation of cutters on the "most outside spirals". good luck figuring this out.

301596

and i see you already have. day late, dollar short. :)

Hi Brad
Thank you for posting anyway :)

[Andrew Hughes]

And to confuse matters more here's a. Pic of a eight inch with 6 rows of nine.I don't have the machine anymore sorry I didn't post the pic sooner.Aj

[J.R. Rutter]

Update:

Byrd called me yesterday.

They tested a Cutterhead from the same batch as mine and confirmed the same problem with their rabbeting insert being set too high.

There making me another cutterhead and sending it next week.
Woo-hoo !
Problem solved.

Thank you everyone for the help and I hope this thread will help others in the future.
It certainly helped Byrd as I’m sure they would have had to deal with more unhappy customers if they had send out more of those out of spec cutterheads.

BTW the new cutterheads with the rabbeting inserts are only two months old.

Thanks
Elman

Glad they are resolving the issue for you and future owners. :thumbup:

[Elman Concepcion]

Glad they are resolving the issue for you and future owners. :thumbup:

Thanks J.R.

Yes, I am feeling rather happy and relieved now.
I'm glad this little odyssey has now come to an end :)

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks,

I will remind everyone that a certain level of civility is expected here at SMC.

[Chris Padilla]

Elman,

Do you get to keep the 'bad' cuttherhead? :D

[Elman Concepcion]

Elman,

Do you get to keep the 'bad' cuttherhead? :D

ROTFLOL

No, I don't get to keep her head.
Got to send her in.
Hope they fix her teeth before they send her back :D