Panel saw build

[Jeff Wittrock]

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

I have been wanting to try my hand at making a panel saw for some time. I know how much I like to look at build threads, so thought I would start posting pictures as I make some progress.
Please don't mistake this for a tutorial. I'm just showing how I stumble through things without much fore thought. Sometimes the way I do things works out and other times...

I fell in love with Mike Wenzloff's rendition of a Kenyon panel saw the first time I saw it, so decided to make something similar to these. I'm still not good at drawing a handle without something to start with, so thanks to "Two Guys in a Garage" for providing saw handle templates on their website. I started with their Seaton tool chest pattern.

I have already been working on this for the last couple of weekends, so I'll start posting what I have and add progress as I make some. You'll probably see that I jump around a lot without ever finishing anything in any kind of order. I just like to work that way. As I grow tired of doing something, I just move on to something else for awhile.


To start with, I bought some blue temper spring steel from amazon. The roll I bought was 0.032" x 6" x 50". I really wish I had gotten some 8" width instead as 6" is a bit narrow at the heal for a panel saw, but this roll was a good price and with 50" length, I will have enough left over for a sash saw I have been thinking of.

Straightening the roll was a bit of a pain. I wish I had read back though some old posts in the forum where George Wilson mentioned pouring boiling water on the plate to allow straightening. I did it the hard way by pulling the steel backwards across the rounded edge of my work counter. I was surprised at how straight I was able to get it this way, but it wasn't easy.

I just started marking out the pattern on the blue steel using a sharpie. I decided on a 24" length. I left the toe a bit deeper than typical. 0.032" is probably a bit floppy so thought I would leave the saw a bit deeper. I figured it would be easy to trim down later if I decided but much harder to add it back.
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[Jeff Wittrock]

In the past, I have used an angle grinder with a thin cutt-off wheel to cut 1095. This works O.K. but have to admit I hate the angle grinder and the shower of sparks. I have a cheep tile saw that has been sitting dormant for a couple of years, so decided to give it a try by replacing the diamond blade with a 4-1/2" cutt-off wheel.

It worked out very well. The saw runs at a fairly low rpm and cuts slow enough that I couldn't make mistakes too quickly. The water kept the plate cool and pretty much eliminated the spark shower. I was able to cut a nice straight line on the back without having to do any real cleanup as I would have with the angle grinder. The spray of water was nut fun in the freezing garage, but I'll still take it over the angle grinder any day.

I was able to cut the rounded nose with the tile saw as will with multiple angled cuts and just cleanup up a bit with a bench grinder.

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[george wilson]

.032" is a bit thin for a saw. It will have a pretty floppy blade. But,the blade will cut if handled with care.Just don't jam it!! I made the Kenyon saws from .042",like the originals. And,we used 12" wide spring steel. Hard to get that in small quantities,though. Best to buy STRAIGHTENED spring steel,rather than those cut from a coil. I can't recall off hand what the maximum width of the blades were,but it is more than 6".More like 7" at least. We got 2 saws per 12" wide piece by nesting the diagonals. There was a left over strip a bit over 1" wide if I recall correctly.

I did make a few special Kenyon style saws with .030" thick blades for sawing between harpsichord keys. I have a Disston style at home I made with the .030" blades. It is flexible,but leaves a very narrow kerf for special needs.

At 6" wide,your saws may be too flexible,though. I suggest you make a half back model,with a brass back up near the handle. It will not really get in the way of sawing if you are careful,and it will help the blade to be more rigid.

[Mike Brady]

Not an endorsement , in fact I have never used one; but Lie-Nielsen's panel saws are .032" plate taper ground from that thickness. I have heard people comment at their hand tool events that they felt a bit whippy.

[george wilson]

The original Kenyons were .042" at the cutting edge. I found modern taper ground saws that were that same thickness at their cutting edges,too. I'm surprised that LN saws would be made so thin. And taper ground from that too?

Like I said,your .032 will be o.k.,but be careful to not kink it. My .030" special saws are whippy,too,but intended only for cutting harpsichord keys apart. The keys start out as a wide board of glued up lime wood,or a similar soft wood. They are then sawn apart. That is how they did it in the 18th. C.,at least.

[Jeff Wittrock]

As I mentioned, I started with a template from TGIAG (Two Guys in a Garage) website. I will be making a few small changes, but don't feel comfortable starting without an existing template.
I would love to have had some beech on hand but decided to use some Chechen (Black Poisonwood). It can be a bit chippy, but is hard enough to take and hold details.

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I have read of others having good success cutting the slot by clamping a blade to a flat raised surface and sliding the handle across the blade, etc. I just haven't had much luck doing this. I'm not saying it doesn't work, just that I probably lack the patients to set it all up well.

For me, it is easiest to start with one good flat surface on the handle and use a marking gauge to scribe a line mid way between the two faces of the handle. I then just take my time and saw the slot using a back saw slightly thinner than the plate I will be using. If helps if the location where the cut is started is left a little larger than the final handle outline. Any starting mistakes that don't go to deep then just get cut away later. You can see this on the nose of the handle where I started and the cut is not so tight on the plate.

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[george wilson]

Be careful of that poison wood. You could die before the saw is finished!!!:):):)

[Jeff Wittrock]

I have an C.E. Jennings 26" rip saw (not sure of the model but rather like a Disston D7) with fairly thin plate. I don't have a set of calipers or micrometer, but comparing it to the 0.032" material I have, I would say it is ~0.028" or so. It is certainly a bit floppy although I have learned to do pretty well with it and appreciate the narrow kerf. I'm hoping the deep blade and 0.032" will be a bit stiffer.

[Jeff Wittrock]

Yeah, if you google "Black Poisonwood" and look at the people who have come in contact with the sap it does not look like fun. Luckily the dried lumber does not seem to have the same affect though I think if it were summer and I were sweating, I would be a bit more leery of having the dust on my skin.

[Jeff Wittrock]

Starting to do some shaping of the handle. The Chechen is fairly hard, but I still enjoy doing some of the shaping with a knife, but most was done with a rasp.
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[Malcolm Schweizer]

Looking great. You are making me want to finish the two Wenzloff panel saw blades I have... And the Grammercy dovetail saw kit.

[Jeff Wittrock]

I debated on buying some brass split nut hardware, but figured I was making everything else, so just as well make the hardware too. I've done this same thing on a couple of previous saws, so it is starting to become routine.

I start with 1/4-28 stainless hex head bolts. I rough grind the head round using a bench grinder. Next I chuck the bolt into my drill press and use file and wet/dry paper to shape and polish. I give the shoulder a slight taper so that it will fit without gap in the holes. I don't have any calipers, so just have a scrap "try block" that I use to know when I have the size right. There are times when I would like to have a small metal lathe, but the number of things I do would probably not justify it.
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To slot the heads, I use a fine hack saw blade with the set ground off. Polishing the head of the bolt in the drill press had the advantage of leaving concentric rings that indicate the center. This comes in handy when slotting the head. I just start from one edge and aim for the center of the rings, then if all looks good, continue the cut all the way across. These slots still need a bit of cleanup.

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[Jeff Wittrock]

I made the split nuts in a similar way. I started with 1/4"-28 stainless nuts. I threaded them onto a cut off section of 1/4-28 bolt so that I could rough grind them round as I did with the bolts, then chucked the stud into my drill press and shaped and polished as before.

I slotted them as I did with the bolts, but used a regular hack saw blade instead of the one I have with the set ground off. I needed the slots to be a bit wider since the split slot is pretty narrow from end to end, and making a spanner with ends that thin would probably be troublesome. I have an existing spanner that I made from 01 tool steel, and already have it ground to fit this size slot.

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[Jeff Wittrock]

Located the holes in the handle and plate. I drilled something like 1/8" pilot holes to start with in the handle, then located the plate and ran the bit down the hole just enough to touch the plate and mark it. I then drilled the countersink holes using the same bit I used to make the try block when I made the split nuts.

I hate drilling holes in spring steel. I need to invest in a good carbide bit for the purpose. Right now, I have a 1/4" masonry bit that I use. Sometimes, I cut a small cross in the steel where I am going to drill using a small cuttoff wheel in a dremel.

I'll set the final countersink dept and bolt length later.

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[Steve Voigt]

Jeff, looks good! Your technique for making split nuts w/o a lathe is very ingenious. I'm definitely filing that away for future reference.

[george wilson]

I have considered taking my .030 blade saw apart,and adding a short brass back to it. But,I am just careful to not get careless and kink my saws in the meantime. As opposed to some TV show.:)

My mention of poison wood was meant as a joke. I haven't used it,and didn't now it would cause skin reactions! I've mentioned real old mahogany I have that causes a rash on my fore arms. Heaven forbid breathing it!

[Jeff Wittrock]

Made a little progress today. Just some more shaping of the handle.

Notice the nice worm hole running right through the right side. There was a hole in the blank I started with about 4 inches away from the handle and probed it with a point so didn't think it went so deep. It did.
I guess I'll fill it with epoxy and chalk it up as a testament to the tenacity of whatever it was that made the hole in this hard wood.

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[Jeff Wittrock]

Thanks Steve,

Sometimes I feel like I'm cobbling things together and should just spend the money on some "real" saw nuts. But I do find some enjoyment in making my own, and I guess there is some value in that :).

Jeff

[Ryan Baker]

Nice job with those bolts and split nuts. How about posting a picture of that spanner you made?

[Kees Heiden]

Very nice handle Jeff! I always look at these hard to reach areas, like the insides of the V-notches and I look how the shape flows and the roundovers and how these shapes flow. In you handle it all looks perfectly allright. I love that worm hole!

[Jeff Wittrock]

Nice job with those bolts and split nuts. How about posting a picture of that spanner you made?
Ryan,

Nothing pretty I'm afraid. I just used some 1/8" O1. After filing the notch, I hardened, then gave it a blue spring temper. The prongs are so thin, I'm still afraid I will snap them off.

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[Jeff Wittrock]

Some more work on the handle, and started polishing the plate. Also cut the hardware to length.
I couldn't resist putting some BLO on the handle even though it isn't quite finished. If nothing else, the scratches show up better after a little oil.

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[Ryan Baker]

That'll work! With it tempered down to spring blue, it ought to bend before it snaps. And if it breaks, you can always just make it a little shorter!

[Mike Allen1010]

Jeff,

Interesting build process and a beautiful result! I particularly appreciate your shop made SS saw nuts- attractive and practical. Thanks a lot for sharing your build pics.

Mike

[Chuck Hart]

Nice work Jeff. I like the handle a lot, the grip and angle of the handle loosk like you will get a well centered stroke. I am going to follow this to the end. I hope to make a saw for myself soon.

Chuck

[Stewie Simpson]

Impressive work Jeff. Congrats. Look forward to the seeing the saw teeth being formed. Will that task be done by hand or by machine.

Stewie;

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Bravo! Standing ovation. It so happens I am going to have some flamed maple left from the Hans Wegner chair build and I am hoping it is enough for a matched set of saw handles. I love the Kenyon pattern.

[Jeff Wittrock]

Thanks all for the comments.


Impressive work Jeff. Congrats. Look forward to the seeing the saw teeth being formed. Will that task be done by hand or by machine.


Stewie,
On all the saws I have done up till now, I have filed the teeth, but 8tpi is the largest I have cut. I am considering 5 tpi for this saw and that won't be as fun to file.
I don't have access to a foley or fly press, so I'm guessing I'll be filing the teeth.

I do wish someone made a simple punch arrangement that could be hit with a sledge to punch teeth. It wouldn't be fast, but faster than filing I'm sure and it would save on my files. Anyone know of something like that?

Since my wet saw worked so well for cutting the plate, I have been considering making a simple jig that would allow me to rough out the teeth using it. The water would keep the teeth cool, so I don't think that would be a worry. Even then, I would probably have to file out the gullet because of the cut-off wheel thickness though.

Actually, I don't mind the time it takes to file the teeth. I just hate to wear out my files on cutting instead of sharpening.

[Jeff Wittrock]

I decided on 5TPI rip with with ~8 degree rake angle.

As I mentioned before, the only teeth I have cut before now have been pretty small (8tpi). I decided to rough out the teeth using the same wet saw I used to cut the plate.

I cut a template from paper and marked the teeth using a sharpie and roughed the teeth out freehand on the wet saw instead of making any kind of jig. Not pretty, but it worked.
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Then cleaned up with the file
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Did I save any time using the wet saw? Probably, but it wasn't much fun, and had I made a bad mistake while using the wet saw, I could have done enough damage that I would have had to move the tooth line back and start again. The file is slow enough that it doesn't have the same risk. But you never know until you try and it was an experiment that worked out. I have few enough experiments that do work, so I'll call this a success.

I don't have a saw set. I've been meaning to get one.... In the mean time, I made a saw wrest and used that to set the teeth. Nothing elaborate, just a slot cut in a piece of O1 that fit the blade thickness.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Wow, this is a great thread. You are going to love that saw every time you use it.

[Jeff Wittrock]

Finally finished the handle using a mixture of tung oil / BLO and wax.
I left off polishing the plate after 320 grit. It's bright enough to see a reflection, but not so much that smudges show too badly.

Assembled and finally got to test on some scraps of oak and southern yellow pine.

I have made a few tools over the past two or three years. They have all turned out to at least be useful, but in pretty much every case, there were problems that kept me from being happy with the end result.
This is probably one of the few projects where I can say I am very happy with the outcome. It cuts and handles well.

Granted, I don't have a lot to compare against. This is only the second "full size" saw I have, and the first one I have made. The other is a 26" C.E. Jennings that I filed for 8tpi rip. It works fine, but when cutting 1-1/2" sothern yellow pine, it always felt like it was just kind of "gumming" it's way though the wood. At 5tpi, this saw takes a nice bite. For those of you with experience ripping SYP with a courser saw, this is probably pretty obvious, but little discoveries like these are still new to me.

To put it another way, knowing and experiencing are two very different things.

As always, critique is appreciated and welcome.

What would I change? Not sure about Chechen for the handle. I do like the hard, smooth texture now that it is done, but always second guess if maybe a native wood would be better. Something a bit lighter would look better? Maybe Maple, or even Sycamore.

I still have half of the 1095 spring steal left, so I'm thinking of making a sister cross cut. Maybe that's the time to think of different wood for the handle.

[Allen Jordan]

That is an amazing saw, nice job. The cutoff disk in the wet saw is clever. I really like how the handle turned out, quite the fancy design... must have been a bear to sand.

[Jeff Wittrock]

As I mentioned before, I don't have anything to really compare this saw against. I have been using it a bit this week and am happy with it, but there are a few things I wonder about.

The plate is not taper ground. I'm just not sure I would do a very good job trying to do that in a makeshift way, so I wonder how much advantage there is in doing it.
Is there much advantage in taper grinding the plate vs. a slightly larger set?

I'm sure it reduces the weight of the saw a bit. As a hobbyist, I'm wondering if I would wan't the saw lighter. I'm not spending a large part of my day sawing, so I kind of like the weight of the saw.

Another thing I'm wondering about is breasting the saw at the tooth line. I didn't do that on this saw. For a first try at a panel saw I decided not to. How much difference would say 3/8" breasting make? I can imagine some benefit in keeping the saw engaged in a cut, but have no personal experience.

Thanks,
Jeff

[Ron Bontz]

Nice Job, Jeff. :)

[Kees Heiden]

Very nice indeed. You just need to file a nib into it. ;)