Hammer A3-31 Owners, Please Help [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Matt Przybylski

11-25-2014, 9:17 PM

Hey everyone,
I’ve been contemplating upgrading my setup to the Hammer A3-31 for what seems like 6 months now. I have read and re-read everything I can find about it, watched every YouTube video I saw, and gotten quotes from the reps twice now. Recently there was a “review” of the A3-31 that was posted on LumberJocks, taken down, and re-posted in a total different light which didn’t help any of this. Basically the owner there was complaining about Hammer as a company and trashing them because his tables weren't flat, then after some exchanges that were very public between the owner and Felder (and a third party) and talks with the Felder CEO, a rep finally came out to his house and corrected the issue. He went on to delete that review and posted a new one that painted the company as if he had now been a part of it and was paid to write it. As this would be the biggest tool purchase I’ve ever made (for obvious reasons), I have some questions I wanted to see if I can get answered before making a decision. Here they are and I’d REALLY appreciate it if someone could shed some light on any and/or all of these:

1) If you have this machine, would you buy it again? Is there anything with it that you regret or would like to change?

2) I’m looking at buying the spiral head rather than the straight knives. The Felder rep told me that you can only purchase replacement cutters directly from Felder. Is this really the case? Can I not purchase the Byrd cutters as I’ve read that this is possibly a Byrd head?

3) If you’ve purchased this or other machines from Felder/Hammer, how has your support post-sale been? Did the machine arrive with any issues? If so, how did Felder handle it? I’ve read extremely conflicting reports on their service and I’m at a loss here.

4) Does the Felder Owners Group (the “other” FOG) still exist? I’ve read that it is a Yahoo group but I can’t find it ANYWHERE. I found a “Felder Users Group” but it only had 113 members and the last post was in May. If this FOG exists, how/where do I sign up?

5) I’ve also put the digital hand wheel in the order as well as two extension tables. I figured one on each side as I regularly work with long stock between 6’-8’ long and as I understand it the stock beds are rather short. Is this a good move? Have you possibly made your own infeed/outfeed for it and would not recommend these? Are there other accessories you’d suggest?

6) Is there another machine along the lines of the A3-31 that I should be looking at? I looked at the Jet (not as favorable as this machine in terms of reviews on performance whereas this machine performance wise usually gets very high marks), the Grizzly (not interested due to having to take off the fence), and the MiniMax FS30 (more expensive, can’t find that much info on it, I spoke with a customer once and he was all over the place so I worry that an actual MM rep couldn’t call me to talk it through and they had a customer call me instead, or as he termed it an owner that is now a local rep, whatever that means). My main criteria are a spiral cutterhead, ease of changing over from jointer to planer and vice versa, not having to take the fence off for the changeover, and 12” capacity.

7) How did you make this machine mobile? I have read mixed reviews about the Hammer mobile base and was going to make my own base with machine leveling casters (http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/149511/WoodRiver-Machine-Leveling-Caster-Plate-Mounted-4-Pack.aspx). There is a stem variant of this (although not sold by Woodcraft) as well which I understand may also be possible and the machine is already pre-drilled for them. Is this true? If so, how easy is it to install them?

I know I’m asking a LOADED set of questions but considering that I may be spending a down payment for a nice car on this tool I’d really like to make the right choice and not feel bad about it. Again, if you could help me in the decision making process by answering some of these questions I’d be forever grateful.

Lastly, I apologize if you saw this post on another forum but I cross-posted to the forums I frequent most often in hopes of getting the most answers possible from users that may not visit this forum so that I may get more insight and finally make this decision once and for all.

Ryan Mooney

11-25-2014, 9:44 PM

1 yes. The main thing I'd prefer would be separates but that's been beaten to death anyway. Do get the digital dial it makes the conversion much less painful because you can repeat cuts on the planner much easier.

2 I understand there is a Byrd third party head, with buying new I don't see the point since the price delta would be bad compared to the Felder silent power. The Felder head is not a Byrd head.

3 good but I haven't rely had any problem either, and I'm just a honorary do probably less demanding than some.

4 yes it's quite active and lots of good info there. You do need to sign up for a yahoo account to access it but once that's done you can use any email address to read it.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/felder-woodworking/conversations/messages

5 smart on ask of the above. I mostly only use the one extension on the planer out feed, the extension for the jointer sounds like a good idea but I ended up putting it on the out feed of my B3 winner instead. Other than that it's a fairly simple device so not sure on other accessories.

6 the mm. It is some where closer to the Felder AD700 lineup I suppose, the hammer does seem to be a bit lighter built (not that it's light, it certainly was a challenge to get off of the pallet anyway :D). I've never seen the mm in person but haven't heard really anything bad either. There is an active member on here you should be able to find with a cursory search who is a mm sales Rep and I'm sure would be happy to answer questions if you pm'd him. The hate mail addressed at the jet kinda ruled it out for me and I decided I didn't need to spend the bucks to go more industrial (and there was a sale :D)

Rod Sheridan

11-25-2014, 9:58 PM

[QUOTE=Matt Przybylski;2338924][FONT=Tahoma]Hey everyone,
I’ve been contemplating upgrading my setup to the Hammer A3-31 for what seems like 6 months now.

Hi Matt, here are my answers to your questions

If you have this machine, would you buy it again? Is there anything with it that you regret or would like to change? [COLOR="#FF0000"]I have bought it again as I gave my first one to my older brother as a thank you for acting as estate executor. The only thing I would like as an option on this is power planer bed adjustment, however I couldn't afford the Felder model,

2) I’m looking at buying the spiral head rather than the straight knives. The Felder rep told me that you can only purchase replacement cutters directly from Felder. Is this really the case? Can I not purchase the Byrd cutters as I’ve read that this is possibly a Byrd head? Yes you can only purchase the replacement cutters from Felder. This is not a Byrd head, it is far more developed. I beilieve it's the only MAN rated carbide head in production. You will not be dissapointed.

3)If you’ve purchased this or other machines from Felder/Hammer, how has your support post-sale been? Did the machine arrive with any issues? If so, how did Felder handle it? I’ve read extremely conflicting reports on their service and I’m at a loss here I have ordered 4 machines from them and have always received exemplary service. Their service has been so far ahead of other vendors that the only comparable company I can think of is Lee Valley.

5)I’ve also put the digital hand wheel in the order as well as two extension tables. I figured one on each side as I regularly work with long stock between 6’-8’ long and as I understand it the stock beds are rather short. Is this a good move? Have you possibly made your own infeed/outfeed for it and would not recommend these? Are there other accessories you’d suggest? I have two table extensions and 3 mounting brackets. One normally stays on the planer outfeed so I don't have to rush around to grab short pieces before they fall on the floor. It's not needed for planing as the machine has zero snipe, not a little, zero. I also have the metric digital height gauge on the machine. I suggest you do likewise as the imperial one is a pain. The machine of course is metric so the metric gauge is 2mm per revolution, so when you put an imperial gauge on it you wind up with a weird number per revolution

6) Is there another machine along the lines of the A3-31 that I should be looking at?[COLOR="#FF0000"]Yes, you certainly should look at MiniMax, they make an excellent machine as well. I'm Canadian and the MM support is terrible here so I dropped them from the vendor list. This may be the opposite of the American experience, I don't know.

7) How did you make this machine mobile? I have read mixed reviews about the Hammer mobile base and was going to make my own base with machine leveling casters The Hammer mobility kit, along with the one for MiniMax works far better than casters, they're the worst choice for machine mobility. The best choice is the semi live skid design using a tow bar. The machine is only a couple of mm off the floor, extremely stable and manoeuvrable. That said, mine is in a hallway so I needed to move it in the opposite plane to the Hammer Kit. I've included a link to the article where I built my mobile base.

4) The FOG is certainly still around, I'm a member. I'll see if I can find how to join up and let you know. You apply for membership, and then they accept you.

I would certainly buy another quality jointer/planer again. I went from General (not General International) machinery to the Hammer and the increase in capacity with the reduction in space usage was terrific.....Regards, Rod.

P.S. Link to mobile base

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?88687-Hammer-A3-31-Mobile-Base&highlight=hammer+a3-31+mobile+base

Clint Baxter

11-25-2014, 10:05 PM

I received mine earlier this year but have not had much time to use it. I am happy with its performance so far. I did get it with the silent power head and definitely believe that is the way to go. I got mine with the optional slot mortiser, but that is something you'd have to make your own decision as to its value. I have not used mine yet. I did have one issue with an incorrect adjusting bolt with my slot mortiser, but when I identified the issue to their customer support, got it resolved and a new part was sent to me. It took about three weeks to get the correct part, but as I mentioned earlier, did not need to have it for use.

I know what you mean about the investment, but believe the item is worth the cost and would do it over again knowing what I do now.

Good luck on your decision

Clint

Joe Samorodin

11-26-2014, 12:03 AM

1. I have the machine and would certainly buy another but I would get the spiral head on the next purchase

2. Byrd has a head and I might replace the head but time and money never seem to coincide

3. support is great from Ultimate Tools in Burnaby BC an hour away from my location but they will always return calls and update me if there are things that I am interested in

4. Don't know the status of FOG

5. I have at times needed extensions but have worked around not having them. I don't do a lot of long stock but am considering getting them as they are relatively cheap as I do a lot of custom pieces its just not high on the priority list. But having a wide bed makes up for the short length. If I was to regularly do wide pieces though a wide planer would be a must

6. Minimax is not well represented in western Canada, I have seen the Ricoh and it doesn't compare not having to take off the fence is a real selling feature

7. My machine is not mobile but there are options that are available depending on circumstances

A couple of thoughts though the scale that is stock is fine for my purposes I prefer a good set of calipers for reading thickness but I would really like to have a high torque electric motor for raising and lowering the bed which I do have in the works and really is not all that difficult to add think cnc machine steeper motors. The decoupling lever for the planer feed is a complete after thought and badly designed, why anyone would think that was an appropriate solution needs to give their head a shake but this is so expected in european
tool design there is always an element that seems quickly done,badly thought out and stubbornly sustained in the design. The Felder ones have the same lever. Also a note about the standard straight knives, they can be honed again and in my experience are better the second time around, but only once. I have had my unit for 2 years or so and use it regularly and its my living but have only bought a second set of knives.

Mark Carlson

11-26-2014, 12:08 AM

1) I'd buy it again. I bought mine right before the new models came out and the newer ones are even better. Silent power head, better fence mount and the tables go up together.
2) I bought the byrd head and love it. I'd get the silent power cutter head in a heart beat.
3) 1st Hammer machine. Experience was really good but I havn't had any issues to test them. They did call to ask if everything was ok with my purchase.
4) Not sure
5) The digital hand gauge is awesome. I bought one extension for the planer outfeed so boards have a place to go until I get around to pick them up. Jointer tables are plenty long enough for what I do.
6)I considered minimax but wanted a factory installed byrd head. Minimax didn't offer that.
7) Leveling casters attach really easily (get the ones with stems). Lets you level the machine and keep it rock steady. Two holes already done, but you will need to drill the two others. Took me about 30 minutes to get it mobile with a car jack. If I remember correctly it was hard to reach one of the stem nuts but I managed. Maybe it took an hour.

~mark

Matt Przybylski

11-26-2014, 11:58 AM

Thank you everyone for the replies, REALLY appreciate it.

@Rod, any chance you could take a picture for me of where the extensions mount? I was hoping to see the hole pattern on the machine that the mounting bracket mounts to so that I can see what that setup is like and if I should invest in the bracket/extensions or just consider making my own. These brackets/extensions really add up fast when you start adding 2+.

@Mark, which leveling casters did you purchase and where did you source them? You installed them directly to the machine? Would you mind sharing a picture of your setup as well?

@Erik, going to read it now, thank you.

Again, thanks alot, this is really helping me out tremendously.

Rod Sheridan

11-26-2014, 12:41 PM

Thank you everyone for the replies, REALLY appreciate it.

@Rod, any chance you could take a picture for me of where the extensions mount? I was hoping to see the hole pattern on the machine that the mounting bracket mounts to so that I can see what that setup is like and if I should invest in the bracket/extensions or just consider making my own. These brackets/extensions really add up fast when you start adding 2+.

.

Matt, i would gladly do that, however you'll have to wait for the weekend as I'm working in Calgary this week.

I would just buy them, I agonised over it like you are, then I bought 2 tables and 3 brackets, then bought another bracket for another machine, they're extremely useful to add to other machines such as saws, shapers, bandsaws.

When you need them, they're there, then you unclip them and hand them back up on wall where they're not in the way..............Rod.

Matt Przybylski

11-26-2014, 12:54 PM

Thank you Rod, your help is really making my decision easier. And you're right, I am agonizing over them just like this purchase in general :\

Mark Carlson

11-26-2014, 1:38 PM

I buy my footmaster casters now from amazon. I really like the ratcheting versions but they cost more but worth it if you are moving your equipment a lot.. I dont use mobile bases anymore. Casters do raise the equipment but I'm tall and my back likes the machines a little higher. Not sure you can make it out in the picture but I bought two brackets, one on the planer outfeed and one on the jointer infeed. The extension lives on the planer outfeed. I can move it to the jointer infeed but never have.

300940300941

Thank you everyone for the replies, REALLY appreciate it.

@Rod, any chance you could take a picture for me of where the extensions mount? I was hoping to see the hole pattern on the machine that the mounting bracket mounts to so that I can see what that setup is like and if I should invest in the bracket/extensions or just consider making my own. These brackets/extensions really add up fast when you start adding 2+.

@Mark, which leveling casters did you purchase and where did you source them? You installed them directly to the machine? Would you mind sharing a picture of your setup as well?

@Erik, going to read it now, thank you.

Again, thanks alot, this is really helping me out tremendously.

Tyler Keniston

11-26-2014, 4:03 PM

Hi there.
I have the A3-31. My experience is a little different than the prevailing opinion on this thread.

I had some troubles with table flatness and adjustments. There was a big hump on the infeed right before the cutter head, supposedly within spec, but affecting the cut. (I know outfeed affects cut more, but with a wide pre-flattened board, the infeed can affect certain cuts, taking more off one side. Thus can affect things like taper jointer cuts) Also my infeed table needs to be 'racked' into contact with the mount bolts despite being told a few times that they should contact at the same time. I had some sour interactions with the service department that made this all the more difficult to deal with (I'm a U.S. customer I should note). There was some condescending tones, some misinformation, some contradictory information, and ultimately, a real lack of information concerning fine adjustments.

For more info on this, look to this thread i started: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?198789-Hammer-A3-31-Hinge-side-adjustment

Now with all that said, I still wouldn't say you should not get this machine. Just know that if you are a perfectionist, this machine might not live up to the expectations. And also if you need service help it might be a little rough. But in the end, I believe it will work for 90% of what I need done in a mostly satisfactory way. Things cost more than I'd like eh.

Straight knives change easy if you end up with em. I've done 8' stock with rollers (no extensions) fine, but if you could afford them probably would be nice. I might try to make a torsion box homemade extension. Oh and the only other thing that seems a but sub par is the fence. Perhaps I have simply not figured out its kinks yet (any advice would be welcome) but it moves out of 90 depending on where the mount is in relation to the table. Seems a bit finicky and not super reliable. But if you continually check with a square and don't push to hard on it, its sufficient. Best of luck in your decision.

Ty

James Bilsky

11-26-2014, 7:23 PM

Hello

I have the A3-31 with the spiral cut head option & mobility kit, below are my answers to some of your questions.

#1 - Yes i would purchase again, if a power height adjustments was available on the Hammer JP I would certainly purchase the option, currently is only offered on the Felder line.
#2 - I have the Spiral Cutter head, guessing it will be a very long time before i need to replace the cutters, since each cutter has 4 cutting edges. Might need to purchase Hammer cutters - possibly a unique design for the Silent Power line.
#3 I purchase 4 Machine from Hammer, A3 31, N4400, AF14 & K3 Winner 48x48 - have had good service, no issues - Mobility kit on all machines.
#4 - Wasnt aware of a Felder forum
#5 - The Digital Indicator is on my list of accessories to purchase, concerning the out feed table don't have yet, although i frequently mill lumber 6>8' lengths have had no issues with snipe at all, to me I think a lot of thought went into the design to prevent snipe issues.
#7 - Use mobility kit designed for the A3-31, machine stay mostly stationary, move it for cleaning etc.

Final comments the A3-31 is well worth the investment, cuts very nice with Silent Power head, lots of power, very quiet compared to a regular joiner/planer and much reduced volume of shavings compared to regular planing knives. Switching between the modes Jointing / Planing had become tedious when I first purchase the machine (poor planning & sequencing), but after awhile you learn how to plan & sequence your jobs to greatly reduce the amount of changeovers.

Hope this helps!
Jim

Scott Brihn

11-26-2014, 9:02 PM

I took delivery of my A3-31 with a silent cutter head in July 2013. It has performed as expected. I recommend the native "silent" cutter head. The noise reduction sold me more than the cut quality. I needed more maneuverability than the overpriced Hammer mobility kit provides and made mine mobile using Foot Master caster/levelers. Much to my surprise I needed to drill all four holes. A real pain without a jack/lift. Fortunately I had four guys helping me. The Foot Master caster/levelers are terrific on the click together laminate shop floor.

My experience with the Felder/Hammer sales/support model is mixed. I have experienced inconsistency on both fronts. Inconsistencies in the sales process contributed to me going in a different direction when I replaced my table saw last month.

I purchased one extension and use it primarily on the planer out feed. I also have the digital hand wheel and find it useful.

My unit arrived via lift gate in good shape. Other than the fence stops, the machine required no adjustments. The star knob on the euro guard adjustment arm broke the first week of ownership.

Ted Calver

11-26-2014, 9:15 PM

I posted my experience on the older thread Tyler mentioned. If buying again I would save a bit more and go for the 16" version with the spiral head. The footmaster casters came from Great Lakes Caster and using a "CM" promotion code might save you some money.

300967

Susumu Mori

11-26-2014, 10:11 PM

1) Yes, definitely. Using about 3 months now. I got a mobile kit, a digital wheel, one extension table, and a spiral cutter. No regret and don't have anything I feel missing. All options are very useful.
2) My understanding is the spiral cutter is designed by Felder. Not sure Byrd fits or it is better. The spiral cutter cuts very smooth and very quiet. Very nice.
3) I had no problem whatsoever with A331. So, had no chance for post-purchase service. However, I bought a FB510 together with the A331, which had some strange noise from the motor. I was not sure if that was really a problem but a tech came and replaced the motor and the entire electric circuits for no cost. They have been very responsive and helpful. They also delivered the A331 and FB510 all the way to my basement too. Maybe I was lucky because I live close to New Castle. Anyway, the service has been just impressive.
4) Don't know.
5) I don't know how it can do it with such a short bed, but there is no noticeable snipe at all. I use an extension table only for the outfeed. I think infeed is not necessary because you hold the piece. The outfeed table is helpful because you don't have to rush from the infeed to outfeed side. Outfeed table is to keep the piece from falling. Not to prevent a snipe.
6) MiniMax is the only one I looked at. The spiral cutter and the Euro-style guide of A331 were big points, but after all, the fact I live near New Castle was the biggest reason. I think you can't go wrong with MiniMax, which seems a tad more sturdier.
7) I bought the mobile kit option. I believe these machines don't move very often anyway. You most likely put is against a wall and it stays there. So, I think it is not a bit deal. I don't have any complaints with the mobile kit.

Finally, I agree that the fence of the A331 can be better. You need some learning curve to use this fence. There is a room for a wobble that makes the fence out of square. You will eventually learn how to put the fence back always at square. Also the fence itself is slightly warped. When you do edge joint against the fence, you can't put the fence too wide. If you think about it, you need only up to 4 inch or so in terms of width when you do edge joint against the fence. There is no need to have 8 inch and wider. If the fence goes beyond 8 inch or so, part of the fence support falls out of the table and it becomes very difficult to keep the square in a reproducible manner. This flimsy fence design is a part of the reason why we can put this machine very close to a wall. So, there is a benefit too. Once I learn how to use it, I like this way.

Craig Behnke

11-27-2014, 2:23 AM

1) If you have this machine, would you buy it again? Is there anything with it that you regret or would like to change?

I have the A3-31. 18 months now. Yes, I would have no problem buying it again. It is a very well made piece of equipment and is a great value for the money. IMHO it is a slight notch below the Mini Max FS41 I had the chance to use a few yrs ago. But that may be an apples to oranges compare as the FS41 is a bit more $. I have no regrets at all…I would have loved to have the funds to buy the larger size, or separates, or the Felder. The only thing I would change is the buying of add ons. When I bought my table extensions, I didn’t know about a company called Aigner that makes extensions and accessories. They have a lot to choose from.

2) I’m looking at buying the spiral head rather than the straight knives. The Felder rep told me that you can only purchase replacement cutters directly from Felder. Is this really the case? Can I not purchase the Byrd cutters as I’ve read that this is possibly a Byrd head?

I got the spiral head. I like the reduced tearout on figured woods. It’s a proprietary design and build from Felder. First side of the cutters lasted about 1 year. Changing was easy. I do see the value in the tersa style heads/blades, you can have different blades for different tasks and the blades are not very expensive.

3) If you’ve purchased this or other machines from Felder/Hammer, how has your support post-sale been? Did the machine arrive with any issues? If so, how did Felder handle it? I’ve read extremely conflicting reports on their service and I’m at a loss here.

I have purchased three machines from Felder/Hammer. Service is good. They handle issues. I had some issues and they were solved reasonably well. PM me or call if you want details.

5) I’ve also put the digital hand wheel in the order as well as two extension tables. I figured one on each side as I regularly work with long stock between 6’-8’ long and as I understand it the stock beds are rather short. Is this a good move? Have you possibly made your own infeed/outfeed for it and would not recommend these? Are there other accessories you’d suggest

I love the digital handwheel. I bought one of the short extension tables and I use it for the planer outfeed. I made two long (30 inch) extensions for jointing in and outfeed. They work reasonably well for the few times I’ve needed them. If money was no object, I’d buy proper extensions.

I’d suggest you make a little backing brace/block that sits behind the outfeed part of the jointer fence. The aluminum can flex when pushing heavy stock through and the block/brace makes it rock solid. Mine is just a 5 inch tall, 2 inch wide and 3-4 inch deep block of Ash that I just use a bessey clamp to attach it with.

6) Is there another machine along the lines of the A3-31 that I should be looking at? I looked at the Jet (not as favorable as this machine in terms of reviews on performance whereas this machine performance wise usually gets very high marks), the Grizzly (not interested due to having to take off the fence), and the MiniMax FS30 (more expensive, can’t find that much info on it, I spoke with a customer once and he was all over the place so I worry that an actual MM rep couldn’t call me to talk it through and they had a customer call me instead, or as he termed it an owner that is now a local rep, whatever that means). My main criteria are a spiral cutterhead, ease of changing over from jointer to planer and vice versa, not having to take the fence off for the changeover, and 12” capacity.

Minimax, Hammer, Felder are the only readily available choices I can think of on the high end of the hobby user market. I don’t have direct experience with the Jet, Rikon, or Grizzly products so I can’t compare them. Some guys use those brands and get great results. IMO there is a meaningful difference in the materials used, fit, finish, repeatable accuracy, etc, of the Hammer. It does what it’s supposed to, again and again. It just works.

7) How did you make this machine mobile?
I use the Hammer mobile base. Works great for me

Summary: IMO it’s a great mix of quality and price. Yes it’s a pretty costly relative to some other brands but it’s well worth it to me. I try to buy high quality stuff and cry just once when I cut the check and then I get to smile every time I use it and get great results. No offense to Griz Jet or Rikon, it’s good stuff but I simply chose to go with another brand and I love the product.

I'm not a professional woodworker, but I do use the machine to make and sell loads of end grain butcher blocks and cutting boards that I sell in Vermont and Florida, so my machines get more than hobby use but not as much as in a professional setting.

hope that helps.

Matt Przybylski

11-27-2014, 10:11 AM

@Mark: Thank you! Great Lakes Caster actually has a warehouse about 30 minutes from me and I found the casters on their site for ~$15 each with the stem variant so I think I'll go this route as well. I read on one forum that the frame may experience racking when adjusting the casters. Have you found this to be true at all?

@Tyler: Your experience with the CS is exactly what I've read about numerous times now and is part of my hesitation. It seems very common to hear that service was sub-par and there was talking down to. You are definitely not the first person to say this which does worry me a little bit. I've got my fair share of woodworking tools but I've only been in the hobby for roughly 3 years and I don't have much machine experience so I'm not exactly "in the know" when technical machine folk talk about some of the components. I'm worried that if I had trouble with mine for whatever reason and they tried to describe things to me in this tone I'd lose it :\

@James: I think you've reaffirmed my decision on not getting the extensions at this point. Thank you very much for your input.

@Scott/Mark: Mark said he had to drill out only 2 holes but you say you had to drill out all 4. Were there no holes at all in yours? And it's unfortunate about your experience with the sales. Thus far they have seemed good to me but I'm more worried about the post-sale support. It sucks that they lost a sale of another big ticket item for your reason, though, that is definitely concerning.

@Ted: A "CM" promotion? Would you care to elaborate on that?

@Susumu: Your post as well as others is starting to worry me a bit about the fence now which I had not considered before posting this thread. I thought the fence design was nice and a space saver but if it has deflection, that's definitely troublesome...

@Craig: Do you have a link to the Aigner company? When I run a search all I can find is a fashion outfit. As for your feeling of buy once/cry once, that's exactly how I feel as well. I'm sending you a PM with some follow up questions if you don't mind.

Again, this has been a huge help everyone and I really appreciate the extremely valuable feedback provided here. I'm very happy I decided to post this thread.

Mark Carlson

11-27-2014, 12:09 PM

Matt, I haven't noticed any racking. I also dont move the j/p very often. I did when I first got it though. I'm very tight on space and I found a good spot so its pretty much is stationary now. I nice thing about the casters is that you can get all your surfaces level. Not sure if it makes a difference but I prefer that my pencils dont roll off the surfaces:)

Oh, I have the previous model and two of the holes were predrilled (used by the hammer mobility kit), and other two were not. The new model might be different.

~mark

Ted Calver

11-27-2014, 12:20 PM

....@Ted: A "CM" promotion? Would you care to elaborate on that?....
Enter CM as promotion code/coupon number during checkout. No recent experience, but read that it still works.

Jim Becker

11-27-2014, 12:55 PM

Since I own a different brand of J/P, I can't help with many of your specific questions, but I will say that I'm extremely happy with having a J/P combo in my shop...space efficient and much more capable than what I could fit in as separates. I also prefer having wide jointing capability as I love wide stock and there are also other benefits to that wider surface. While my particular machine does have a built-in mobility feature, it hasn't moved in years.

Rod Sheridan

11-27-2014, 1:30 PM

The fence works perfectly, it's different from North American style fences, although my General jointer also had an end mounted fence.

Regards, Rod.

Mark Carlson

11-27-2014, 2:55 PM

Ditto, I have no problems with my fence. Stays at 90 and very flat.

The fence works perfectly, it's different from North American style fences, although my General jointer also had an end mounted fence.

Regards, Rod.

Matthew Hills

11-27-2014, 11:50 PM

Earl Rumans

11-28-2014, 12:24 AM

If you are really looking for other options you might take a look at the Baileigh JP-1686. I don't know if you have the space for it, or 3 phase in your shop but it's an awful lot of machine, for about the same money as the Hammer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgi_NRlV17Q

Darrin Johnson

11-28-2014, 11:32 AM

I just got the A31 on Tuesday with the silent power heads. With Thanksgiving Holiday I haven't had time to delve into it too much (out of town). Preliminarily, it appears the short axis is 10/1000 off towards the front (indeed relative to outfeed). Having looked at Hammer's website and all their downloads, they could do a much better job explaining any adjustments that need to be made on this machine and what the specs should be. I need to move it around and make sure the floor isn't causing some/all of this, so I'm not going to say it's an issue. Haven't even had a chance to run much wood through it.

Matt Przybylski

11-28-2014, 1:17 PM

@Earl: If I'm not mistaken the Baileigh requires removal of fence for changeover which is a dealbreaker for me. I also don't have 3 phase in my shop.

Matthew Hills

11-28-2014, 2:44 PM

I highly recommend Aigner extension tables!

Why does the dust collector port on the bandsaw point up?

Matt

Tyler Keniston

11-28-2014, 4:23 PM

"The fence works perfectly, it's different from North American style fences, although my General jointer also had an end mounted fence."

The fence may indeed work fine, or better than fine, once ample time has been spent working with it and figuring out how to get along with it (and depending on the woodworker of course). However, the mere fact that it requires this time and futzing, to me, is evidence that it is not as simple and sturdy as a heavy-duty center mount you would find on a stand alone machine. 'Well, obviously,' some may say. It is a compromise to allow quick change overs. It remains no matter how obvious it is that if you are concerned about having a real solid fence (a thing that might play into some peoples work more than others, such as angle joining cuts) you should know this fence may require a learning curve. I honestly haven't used it enough yet to know how well it will stand up to cutting say, a large board at a 45 degree. I also don't know how it compares to other J/P combos. Only to singe use machines which I suppose we all admit would be the ideal given unlimited space and money.

Rod Sheridan

11-28-2014, 4:58 PM

Earl Rumans

11-28-2014, 7:24 PM

@Earl: If I'm not mistaken the Baileigh requires removal of fence for changeover which is a dealbreaker for me. I also don't have 3 phase in my shop.
The small Baileigh does, that's the unit I have but the one I was talking about is a 16 inch machine and it is pretty amazing for the price. Like I said, I don't know if you have the space or 3 phase in your shop to use this machine but for about the same cost as the Hammer, it's a big upgrade. Look at the link I posted and it fully describes the machine.

Matt Przybylski

11-28-2014, 8:32 PM

The small Baileigh does, that's the unit I have but the one I was talking about is a 16 inch machine and it is pretty amazing for the price. Like I said, I don't know if you have the space or 3 phase in your shop to use this machine but for about the same cost as the Hammer, it's a big upgrade. Look at the link I posted and it fully describes the machine.

Earl, that is a very nice machine and I remember actually watching his videos on it way before I was in the purchasing process of a J/P. The machine has everything I'd want, including the digital up/down, non-removal of fence, spiral head, and 16" capacity would be fantastic. The problem is with the footprint and the 3 phase power. That thing is MASSIVE. Thanks though, it would have definitely been a contender otherwise.

Jim Becker

11-29-2014, 9:17 AM

I'd seen some discussion of the Aigner extensions on the festool owners group lists.
I haven't seen a good online presence by Aigner itself, but had been referred to some resellers:
http://www.simantechinc.com/aigner.htm
http://www.martin-usa.com/
http://www.rangate.com

Rangate has one of the old Aigner catalogs:
http://www.rangate.com/uploads/Aigner/Aigner_Catalog_2011.pdf

Matt

I've seen the Aigner stuff...top shelf. Darn expensive, but wow...really nice. I'd love to have them for my band saw! That said, I've never felt the need for longer tables on my J/P. The only time I ever run truly long boards through it is for "skimming" rough lumber before putting it in storage. Actual milling doesn't happen until I select material for a project, chalk it out for components and then rough cut to length. The goal is always to work with the smallest pieces. It would be a rare day that something over 5' long was required for a project...while acknowledging there might be exceptions.

ian maybury

11-29-2014, 11:00 AM

I'm another with Hammer separates (but not in the US - my impression is that the US operation perhaps puts time into pre-delivery machine set up that isn't always invested on this side of the Atlantic) and have posted before on my experience. I run an A3 41, K3 Perform slider and F3 spindle moulder.

While unclear how representative it was I've mixed views. My prior machine was a Robland combo, and I don't know how the likes of e.g. Minimax or for that matter Felder machines compare. My impression is that it's a lot to do with your expectations - that there's plenty that work in a manner so that what is an issue for another they don't even notice. I'm definitely in the repeatability and precision camp, and take the view that straightness and squareness are critical to working accurately.

I purposely refused to pay for additional set up of the machines following delivery - i wanted to learn the machine adjustments/know in detail what the situation was, had little confidence that a service guy on a tight schedule would be allowed to work to the precision i wanted, and anyway felt that paying again for what the factory should have done was inappropriate.

My A3 41 had (among other less significant table flatness issues) a dip in the middle of the infeed table just before the cutters which played havoc with the set up - it didn't want to joint straight/always tended to cut convex. (could only be persuaded to joint straight by running an abnormal infeed table alignment, and then didn't perform consistently across the width of the table/on differing workpiece lengths) The fence is solid, but wasn't flat either. The 0.010in factory tolerance for table flatness isn't realistic (but the rationale for setting it so very wide seems pretty clear….) - even half of that in the wrong area can as I found cause big problems. My impression from user feedback is that regardless of the spec there may in reality have been a significant frequency of table flatness issues with these machines - that getting a 'good' one may matter if you are into precision. ('good' despite the spec probably means flat within a couple of thou all over both tables….)

I got nowhere by polite means with the factory (was anyway out of the immediate warranty by the time it all came to light as aresult of illness), and after a year or more ended up biting the bullet by flattening and re-anodising the fence, reworking the fence mounting and hand scraping the tables accurately flat myself. Which while labour intensive transformed the performance - it immediately jointed straight with the tables set coplanar, and delivered instant and predictable responses to small changes in table alignment. The scraped finish delivered a silky smooth feed compared to the original quite roughly face milled (?) table surface too.

I'm a huge fan of the Felder quick change knife system. Whether or not it's a 'drop in'/no adjustment option to change knives is another matter (it again depends on how finely you like to set these things up), but it's very nicely made and delivers a very precise and highly controllable system of adjustment of knife heights - which can be tuned at each adjuster/at multiple points across the width of the table. (a bit like insert cutters - many love them for their minimal sharpening requirement and avoidance of the need to set up knives, some find they leave faint scalloped marks. Depends on what you are looking for...)

I'm not a fan of mobility kits, especially not for planer thicknessers and larger saws which by definition/layout do not have a highly twist resistant cabinet. My A3 410 is on adjustable feet, but i've found that moving it on what is actually a not far off level workshop floor causes the cabinet to flex and throws some of the finer (e.g. knife height) adjustments. I've marked floor locations for each foot so that if it's for any reason moved it can be returned precisely to where it was before.

The current/new model planer thicknessers seem likely to be an improvement - they have a revised table hinge design which may address some inconvenient rather than show stopping table height/alignment ease of adjustment/predictability issues with the model I have have.

The K3 was also a mess as delivered - with slider, table, blade tilt hinge and riving knife misalignments that were way out of whack - they left the machine unusable as received. These fortunately enough proved to be capable of being sorted out by adjustment - the machine had no significant manufacturing defects as such.

The F3 in contrast was well built and aligned - it was perfectly usable as received, and while I did some fine tuning of the sliding table height and the like it was about preferences rather than problems. Night and day. The shape of the cabinet is such that it's much stiffer than the other two machines.

Bottom line my view is that while quite a lot may hang on the care taken/who handled the final set up of your machine that at this level in the market you get what you pay for.

These machines while not cheap are not remotely high end in professional woodworking machinery terms, and to a large extent come out of eastern factories. I can't speak for the US market, but my impression/experience is that warranty matters are handled exactly as you would expect in this situation - behind the talk there's a pretty hard ass application of criteria which mean that if the issue isn't black and white wrong you will probably be on your own. There's also by definition a fair amount of corner cutting done to hit the price point - and this definitely results in some less than ideal design details and quality issues.

Against that all three machines have in my own case proven very capable once dialled in and set up, and more to the ppoint they seem to (with careful handling) hold their adjustments….

Matt Przybylski

11-29-2014, 12:02 PM

Thanks for your input Ian, that kind of feedback is definitely much appreciated on the overall quality and for setting expectations. I've now been told on multiple occasions these are hobbyist machines and not to expect the world. I'm having a bit of a hard time with that considering $5K is not chump change and, as a perfectionist, I fear that this may not satisfy me and do nothing but frustrate me in the long run. :\

Earl Rumans

11-29-2014, 1:36 PM

Matt, these reviews are the exact reason I decided not to get the Hammer machines. If I was going to spend that kind of money I wanted precision machines and Hammer couldn't tell me that is what I would get. I decided to either go cheaper and just be satisfied with the quality, or spend the extra and get MiniMax. I have never heard of any problems with any MM machines. I only do woodworking for a hobby and I am an old guy, with son's and daughters that don't have any interest in woodworking, so no one to pass my equipment down too. I decided to go cheap and just enjoy what I got. If you are a perfectionist person, as you say, then I think the Hammer quality will drive you crazy. Have you looked at MM and how much more it would cost you?

ian maybury

11-29-2014, 2:35 PM

I'd not want to be negative about the whole thing Matt - there seem to be many thousands of happy Hammer owners out there. It's very possible too that Hammer have got e.g. whatever table flatness issue they had (and it's not clear whether this was of a significant extent or not) under control, and that the US operation is screening out most of whatever set up issues that get out of the factory. I know from business experience though that Hammer pretty much have to get it right first time, or forget about it - that it's not possible to routinely fly service guys all over the place to support machinery at the Hammer price point without getting paid as they go. I've in fact seen a business selling much higher value machinery consume most of its profts and almost go under from doing so.

The issue with woodworking is that it's such a highly differentiated and developed market. There seems literally to be product at every conceivably possible price/spec point. This (setting aside the marketing hype that is more or less universal in the industry - everything no matter what is 'professional quality') is perhaps the realpolitik of it - there's no magic, and within reason/variability between specific examples of particular models you get what you pay for. Trouble is it's not always possible to accurately assess a machine without having lived with something similar for a while.

It's hard to buck the market. The basic option if you want very high quality is to pay the extra money - go up market. For those of us less well financed i guess it comes down to taking our chances new at whatever level, or buying up market but used.

One big advanatge of the last is that you (presuming the required hands on knowledge and tech skills) get to make an in depth inspection before you buy - with the option to walk away if e.g. tables are not accurately flat or whatever. This in a sense is one of the big disadvantages of buying new at a lower price point - even if there are good examples of the product out there you risk getting whatever example is lifted off the shelf and shipped to you...

Matt Przybylski

11-29-2014, 2:35 PM

I have been in talks with Erik, a MM rep that contributes here, through email for the past few days. The MM FS30 is definitely a player but truth be told, I can't get over not having the spiral cutterhead in it. I understand that the Tersa head is a very good head but part of the reason I'm even purchasing a J/P combo and upgrading from my current setup (a 6" Grizzly parallelogram jointer and the DW735 benchtop planer) is to get a spiral head on "both" machines along with the capacity increase for jointing. Erik has offered me a price that's actually in the end comparable with the A3-31 (though not with the accessories I had on my initial quote) and if it wasn't for not having the spiral head I would have already placed the order.

Lastly, this whole process and my inability to make a proper decision is making me lean back to using my current setup until I move into a larger shop when we sell our house (in 7-8 years or so, timed with paying off our current home and my little girls needing a better school district which is why I'm so sure of the time frame in case anyone is wondering) at which point I'd get stationary machines for each. I can't believe I'm having this much trouble making a decision on this but i suppose when $5K is on the line for a hobbyist with a growing family it's not as easy as it is for a bachelor or an empty nester :)

Jim Becker

11-29-2014, 7:46 PM

Matt, I can appreciate your desire for the spiral head...they are very nice. At the same time, I've been running the Tersa setup for quite few years now, and it's never let me down...much better than ordinary straight knives in that you can slightly adjust one or more laterally to eliminate the effect of a nick and the knives are also available in different metal formulas for those who want to optimize them to the task. They can be changed out in just a few minutes and are always at exactly the same height.

Chris Parks

11-29-2014, 11:44 PM

Matt, I went through the same decision procrastination as you for the same reasons and ended up buying the Hammer for the spiral head. If MM had the option of the spiral head I would have bought it.

howard s hanger

11-30-2014, 2:00 PM

These machines while not cheap are not remotely high end in professional woodworking machinery terms, and to a large extent come out of eastern factories.

No, Hammer does not even remotely come from an "Eastern" factory. It is 100% assembled in Austria. There are a few parts that could be sourced from another country but they are much the exception than the rule. I got this info directly from a conversation with the president of FelderUSA. Considering from what I stepped up from, my machines are a joy to work with and I have nothing but good things to say about their service. Rivals Festool IMO.

Susumu Mori

11-30-2014, 2:39 PM

Hi Matt,

I want to add few comments because it seems I initiated your concern about the fence.
Long story short, I'm perfectly fine with the Hammer fence. It serves its purposes well.
As Rod said, you need to mount the guide rail correctly.
As Taylor said, it has few more places to tweak than a center-mount. There is no learning curve with a center mount, while the side mount needs some time to poke around. Not a big deal. It's a small price you need to pay to get the space-saving and quick change-over.

I am one of those guys who lurk around with a straight-edge and a feeler gauge. Cups, warping, flex, all bother me. And with my reading glasses and Festool Syslight, I can see leaking rights here and there. I believe any sub-$10,000 machines are the same. Hunting down the final 0.005 inch could cost fortune for manufactures, which would push the price. In reality, woods are not metals. They move as we cut. They compress as you push. I am obsessed with 90 degree and parallel, but I have to admit that the precision of Hammer is no where close to the precision-bottleneck of my entire woodworking process. Also, any jointers require some level of skill. Infeed/outfeed levels can control slight concave or convex over the length. If we want to flatten a board with convex, we can't just casually push the board.

Another important factor is if the machine gives you quality time and joy. I guess majority of us enjoy A331. Fit and finish, sound, vibration, surface, and cut quality, I can't compare with my previous jointer and planer. This is something you can't read from spec sheets. You just have to use it for a while.

Having said that, any companies sometimes have bad apples. It's inevitable and I feel sorry for those who happened to get one of these. I hope the customer supports address such issues well. My experience with Hammer/Felder has been exceptional, but opinions may vary. Usually happy majority is silent.
Anyway, hope it helps.

Matt Przybylski

11-30-2014, 3:50 PM

Susumi, thank you for your follow up. I understand everything you outlined and agree. Wood moves, bottom line. We sometimes get caught up in chasing perfection for no apparent reason :)

ian maybury

11-30-2014, 7:44 PM

Hi Howard. Not to get into a debate on this as international sourcing is a fact of life across the industry - and isn't remotely a negative in itself. The opposite in fact, in that most of us are happy to benefit where possible from cost and quality effective sourcing. I certainly am. Against that it's an issue that's almost impossible to bottom with any certainty - so much that's sold in Europe these days has a 'European' brand, but does not originate as the brand history might suggest.

There's been extended discussions on this very topic on several different forums (including this one) over a number of years, with various Felder and Felder linked personnel quoted along the way. Nobody is arguing that the machines are not assembled in Austria, but most reports (as of a few years ago) have been equally clear that large and labour intensive components (e.g. castings) are frequently if not normally sourced from the East - with the proportion varying between models. Electrics, bearings and the like have been reported as being sourced in Europe, but even this can in the general sense be true without necessarily being a definitive statement of first origin.

Chances are if its like most businesses that the situation isn't static either, but varies as different sourcing options develop.....