What qualities make a "better" chisel worth the cost?

[Frederick Skelly]

Im going to buy a 1/8" chisel. I found a Narex for $7.50 and an Ashley Iles for $32.

If its ok with you folks, could we please ignore the brand names for a moment? Im trying to understand something more fundamental because (honestly) Im terribly ignorant about chisels and want to learn a bit. I think I understand that the steel can make a big difference. From various sharpening threads Ive got the basic concepts of that; e.g., changing the type of steel can change how sharp you can get a blade, and/or how long the edge will last between touch-ups.

But at the handtool newbie level, a chisel is just a piece of good steel with a well made, strong handle. Of course I know better, but learning why is the point of this thread. What else makes one chisel higher quality than another?

Ive learned enough from you folks that I could probably answer this question for hand planes. I mean, its pretty clear why a LN plane is better than a Buck Brothers or Kobalt. But planes have far more to them than a chisel seems to.

Will you please teach me?

Thank you!
Fred

[David Weaver]

I've had ashley iles and narex. The cost to manufacture the two makes the difference in price there, but I was never impressed with the ashley iles chisels for their supposed hardness. The one thing "better" about them is that they are oil hardening steel while narex chisels are some kind of more common steel that is likely air hardening (and a bit more gummy). At least of the types I've used.

I've had two sets of AI chisels, though, and neither held an edge like you'd expect oil hardening steel to hold an edge. They didn't hold an edge any better than my softer vintage chisels that are inexpensive. Maybe I just has some duds. (I'd get the narex of the two in that deal).

Two things can reasonably add cost that makes better performance:
1) the type of steel and quality of the hardening and tempering
2) the quality of the grind

1 allows you to have a chisel that sharpens easily and holds an edge well (especially in relative comparison to each other)
2 allows you to have a chisel with a profile that you like and if the grind is done well, prep is minimal and the chisel doesn't interfere with much of your work

Handles and other design elements can add some cost, but whether they add utility is subjective.

[Sean Hughto]

I'm not going to talk about these two particular brands, but I can offer things to consider. But let me first say that I agree that chisels are relatively simple and most modern steel is pretty decent, i.e., even an inexpensive chisel can get everything you need done well. Then again, a Yugo might get you to the supermarket, but it's nice to go in a Lexus.

- BALANCE:
The design of a chisel and it's handle change it's balance and feel in your hand. A better fit and balance may translate into better control and comfort which can translate into better results. So what effects balance: overall length, materials, design issues like tang versus socket. Compare for example the weight and feel of a Stanley Everlasting and a Stanley 750 and a Swan tang. Compare the difference between a 720 length chisel and a butt.

- FINISH:
The bevels on the long sides of the chisels can be well thought out and executed or more of an afterthought. Well designed and finished blades are nicer to use as they fell better in your hand and fit in tight places on your projects more deftly.

- HANDLE:
This is really personal preference, but it can make a lot of difference. Holding plastic is not as nice as holding oiled wood for me, for example. A well placed cove for your fingers, a nice taper or bulge, etc. can make quite a difference depending upon the application and how you like to hold the tool.

- STEEL:
So there is some bad cheap chromium steels I've seen on some cheap modern carpenters brands, but most modern steel seems quite good enough. Then again, I must say my experience is that there is such a thing as really sweet fine grained steels that take and keep a super keen edge. Most of those I have run into are vintage (Berg, Swan, Witherby, etc.). They are treat to use. LN's A2 is really strong, so it is great for jobs where I'm pounding the chisel into the wood, like in chopping dovetails. You don't want soft steel and your don't brittle. But other than that, most can be made to work. The otehr thing to consider as you get picky about steels is how different sorts behave in your chosen sharpening method. It's easy to sharpen vintage OI on some media, but harder to deal with A2, etc.

Hope some of this helps.

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[Daniel Rode]

I don't have any "nice" chisels. I have some Marples blue chips, a Stanley Bailey set and a Narex mortise and a couple misc Irwin chisels.

The Marples are my hands down favorite. They sharpen easily and hold and edge well but it's mostly that I like the balance and handle shape better than the others. I dislike the large clunky Narex handles. I've read that some people have reshaped the Narex handles with good results. The Baileys are similar to the Narex handles but smaller and have indents top and bottom than make them more comfortable. The Irwin handles were designed by someone who never used a chisel but I was able to make a pair of skews of $12, so I can't complain too much. The steel doesn't hold and edge as well as the others but they are usable.

If I were going to buy a premium chisel, it would be more about the balance and feel than anything else. I've never used a Stanley 750 or the LN chisels but they look like they'd feel good in use. I like the looks of the AI mark 2 style. The thinner lands seem nice especially for dovetails. they "look" like they would be well balanced, not too long or short and the handle shape would feel good in the hand. But I'd have to use then to know for sure.

[lowell holmes]

My response is just pick up a LN or 750 and you will know the difference.

I have both and also blue handled Marples. The Marples is close and served me well.

Being something of a chisel snob, I pretty much use the LN and 750's.

I have a couple of the "Stanley Everlasting", but for some reason, I don't favor them.

Sometimes, an old chisel will not hold an edge like it should. I think that is a case where the proper alloy was not used in manufacturing.

For mortise chisels, I prefer Ray Iles. The Lee Valley Narex mortise chisels are good, but don't have the feel of the Iles. That can be changed somewhat by sanding and smoothing the Narex chisel handles and rubbing with Johnson floor wax. I have no problem with the metal in the Narex chisels.

The old Stanley 60 plastic handled chisels have good metal in them and make great "beater" chisels. The 1970's version absolutely hold a good edge.

I also have the Narex cranked neck paring chisels and I like them, especially after smoothing the handles. They are dangerously sharp.

[Derek Cohen]

Im going to buy a 1/8" chisel.

For what purpose, Fred? Morticing, paring, chopping dovetails ...?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

more likely,if an old chisel of a good brand doesn't hold an edge as well as the other same brand chisels,it was not hardened or tempered quite properly. Might have been made at the end of the day on Friday. Old QC was not what it is today.

QC depended upon the skill of the operator. Everyone can have a bad day,been sick,etc. Or even drunk back then.

[Sean Hughto]

To Derek's point, Fred, yes, there are specialty chisels for certain applications. Mortising, dovetailing, paring, skew, crank neck, etc. I took you to be asking about general purpose bench chisels.

[Prashun Patel]

...a chisel is just a piece of good steel with a well made, strong handle...

This is a rich statement, and is exactly why a good chisel costs double, triple, 10x a cheap one.

Like sushi, I didn't know what 'good' sushi was until I tried 'bad' sushi.

Good steel sharpens well and holds a keen edge for a good while. I think 99% of the price is about this steel. A good handle won't split, but is ultimately replaceable, and your hand can learn to work with a variety of ergonomics; in fact, the exact size and shape of a handle may be slightly user-specific.

The steel is not.

I have the Narexes and they are a very good value. They perform fairly decently and are priced amazingly.

[Mike Holbrook]

Frederick,
It might help to determine what you plan to use the chisels for. I have two main classifications of chisels: 1)chisels I can go ahead and whack, hard, with a steel hammer and 2) those that I plan to use either with hand pressure or maybe a special Wood Is Good or Thor Mallet. From there one can break the tougher chisels down to mortise vs other chisel shapes and if one chooses to go with Japanese chisels there are other classifications of chisels. The chisels used for fine, more hand oriented work can be broken down into many categories too.

Most of my hard use chisels have metal rings that protect the ends from splitting. The lighter use chisels usually do not have rings. Rings are especially handy if you want to use something like a Japanese metal chisel hammer to drive your chisels. Certainly one can drive chisels with many different types of mallets/hammers. Many use wood or special plastic hammer/mallet heads. I think there is a different feel of authority and precision one gets from striking a chisel with a steel hammer but for many others, not so much.

Most of the chisels made in the US or Europe, these days, are one type of metal. Many Japanese chisels are laminated. The Japanese laminated chisels are typically a very hard steel and a softer back up steel. The softer steel reinforces the hard steel that might crack or break easily without the help of the softer steel. The use of the softer steel also makes these chisels much easier to sharpen than say a solid HSS chisel. The laminated steel usually enables the maker to construct an edge that is harder and tougher at the same time without substantially increasing the difficulty of sharpening. Japanese chisels are often made by skilled craftsmen by hand instead of "manufactured".

Japanese chisels have quite a few other features that are a little complicated to get into. The backs of typical Japanese chisels are typically hollowed out instead of flat, the Japanese have a unique method of attaching chisels to handles, many Japanese chisels can be bought with handles made form several different woods, each with it's own unique features....The variety of features available in Japanese chisels is generally far greater than US/European chisels.

Consideration of what joints you will be wanting to make in the near future is a good place to start researching chisels from. The chisels you may want for timber framing or chopping mortises and tenons in a Roubo bench are worlds away from what you might want to trim very small hand made dovetails. You may also want to consider if and with what you might want to strike your chisels with. I hear a rumor that Rob Lee has contractors who "spank" anyone who strikes one of their very nice PM-V11 chisels with an all steel hammer. At the same time Rob may encourage you to strike one of his chisels with one of his metal hammer/mallets with a wood insert in the face.

[Curt Putnam]

I have a plethora of chisels and am slowly learning what makes a "good" chisel. Steel quality is important up to the point where it will take really good edge and hold it long enough for your work. That is, perhaps, why O1 and vintage steels are so popular. Assuming you are talking a new chisel, then if it comes with a back already lapped flat, you will save lots of time when honing. If you are doing dovetails then the bevels are important. Lack of bevel is important in a mortise chisel. Overall feel in your hand can make all the difference in the confidence with which you attack a joint. I have two different kinds of paring chisels - the Narex set and a couple Blue Spruce. The difference in feel for the same size is incredible. The BS are a finely tuned, responsive sports car where the Narex are more like a Mack dump truck. Both are worthy chisels and both will get the job done, but the experience is so much better with the BS.

A lot depends on your attitude. Are you a penny pincher in the rest of your life or do you appreciate the finer things in life? Can you spend more for a good suit or are you OK with an OTR from Kohls? For me, at the moment, I have the Veritas PM-V11 set (no 3/16") and Narex mortising and paring sets, the aforementioned BS paring chisels, and Marples along with misc. vintage and plastic handled, contractor Stanleys.

[David Weaver]

I'm going to make a comment about steel. I am sometimes a steel chaser, I love a chisel that has "dry steel", like vintage water hardening steel or japanese steel. Those are the types of chisels that don't form a very tenacious wire edge, and they can be sharpened on anything.

BUT, it really doesn't make any difference. The narex chisels and chisels of A2 have a much stronger wire edge that doesn't just strop off as easily on a bare strop, or leave a particularly neat edge if a large wire edge tears off, but the only thing needed to remedy that is some honing compound and a piece of MDF to use as a strop. When I got the narex parers a while ago, I worked up their edge and just used an MDF strop and 1 micron diamond (which cuts fairly softly on a piece of MDF). They were stunningly sharp after that, and it took no longer than anything else. The MDF and diamond substitutes for whatever your last step would otherwise be. (mine for "dry steel" would be a bare leather strop).

Green Chrome ox compound would have the same effect.

You can really get used to anything, and bird dogging a chisel because it's not a specific type of steel or it doesn't hold at a certain angle (but would at +2%) or because the side lands are too tall (that can be remedied in a matter of minutes by grinding back the lands on the first inch of the chisel). its' all just forum talk.

If you had narex chisels and ground them to however you liked them, or you had $75 each type chisels, it would make no difference in your work. And if you lived in a vacuum away from the talk and urge to try other stuff, you'd never really want for anything. The method you use to get them sharp would conform until it does just that and you'd be on your way.

[Sean Hughto]

True dat, bout da lands:
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[Jim Koepke]

But at the handtool newbie level, a chisel is just a piece of good steel with a well made, strong handle. Of course I know better, but learning why is the point of this thread. What else makes one chisel higher quality than another?

I do not know about the quality difference between the Narex and the Ashley Iles. From comments on this forum it appears more people are happy with the chisels from Narex than the ones from AI.

One thing to consider, at least in this case, is the cost of labor and the manufacturing process.

My preference has always been for socket chisels independent of the maker. This way my handles can be made to my liking.

Being a frugal minded person my choice in this case would likely be to go for the Narex. Then if it didn't work out the loss would be less and an easy recovery.

The Narex is likely less than what a vintage 1/8" chisel would cost on ebay.

jtk

[Tom M King]

Marples chisels, with both Boxwood, and Blue Plastic handles, serve me well enough that I don't need anything "better" for bench chisels. As long as I can sharpen one easily enough to do this, I'm fine with it. The larger, lighter shaving, taken by a Stanley block plane, with a stock iron, is .0011. The ones rolled up on the handsawn tenon cheek offcut of Heart Pine were too fragile to unroll to measure the thickness of.

[Mike Henderson]

For me, I suppose the main thing is the steel and how well it holds up (so I don't have to hone so often). But our ancestors made great furniture with the chisels they had and the steel was plain carbon steel, with unknown other elements. You can do excellent work with almost any chisel, as long as you understand its strengths and weaknesses.

Some of the modern steel, such as the powdered metal steel, will hold an edge longer than plain carbon steel.

Mike

[Frederick Skelly]

For what purpose, Fred? Morticing, paring, chopping dovetails ...?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek. Just for general bench use on my small boxes; e.g., to cut a very narrow dado in which to fit an internal divider.

[paul cottingham]

I have a set of Narex chisels that I quite like. What I don't like is the fact that the steel is inconsistent. For example, the steel in the 1/4" chisel in my set is like cheese. The steel in the 1/2 is marginally better. However, the 3/4 and 1" chisels are great. So I am slowly replacing the smaller Narex chisels as I go along. I really like the new LV chisels with the carmelized (or whatever it is) handles. So I am replacing them with those. I like the steel in them.
i think the Ray Iles have the same problems. I have a buddy with a 1 1/2" Ray Iles chisel, and the steel in it is terrible. I have ground the damn thing at least three times, only to have the edge completely crumble the first time he uses it.
Good stell means less time honing and more time woodworking. Sharp tools work much better, with less effort. Easier on my hands.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks guys! Ive learned a lot from this discussion, just as Id hoped.

I appreciate you taking the time to teach me.

Fred

[Steve Voigt]

I have a buddy with a 1 1/2" Ray Iles chisel, and the steel in it is terrible. I have ground the damn thing at least three times, only to have the edge completely crumble the first time he uses it.


It's possible the steel is terrible, but I seriously doubt it. It sounds like your buddy's chisel just needs to be tempered some more. Are those chisels O1? If so, you can just take it to a straw color, or light brown, and it should be fine. Do either of you have an electric stove? If you do, you can temper it right on the range top, and you won't even have to take the handle off. I actually just did that tonight with an old English pigsticker. (a gas stove works too, but it's easier if you don't have to look at the flame).

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Derek. Just for general bench use on my small boxes; e.g., to cut a very narrow dado in which to fit an internal divider.

Hi Fred

OK, that is clearer now.

Actually you do not want a 1/8" chisel! You will be better off with a wide chisel, say 1"+. The issue here is not the chisel, but the best way to form a shallow dado.

What I would do is deeply score parallel lines, and then remove most of the waste using a chisel into and undercutting the lines.

This is a much larger version ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Veritas%20Small%20Plow%20Plane_html_4041074c .jpg

A chisel will not leave a dado floor with the quality you may require. A router plane (with a 1/8") blade is ideal. Lee Valley sell small blades that will fit their Medium and Large router planes as well as Stanley router planes. Again, below is just an illustration ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Veritas%20Small%20Plow%20Plane_html_52c369d9 .jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

The issue here is not the chisel, but the best way to form a shallow dado.

[snip]

A chisel will not leave a dado floor with the quality you may require.

For a smooth floor on a dado a router plane is the best.

As far as speed, for me it is faster to cut a dado with a large chisel for the edges and the small chisel for curling out the waste. A shallow dado can often be done in three or four passes. If a smooth bottom isn't needed the router takes me more time.

Of course as is so often the case, 300916

jtk

[Chris Hachet]

I don't have any "nice" chisels. I have some Marples blue chips, a Stanley Bailey set and a Narex mortise and a couple misc Irwin chisels.

The Marples are my hands down favorite. They sharpen easily and hold and edge well but it's mostly that I like the balance and handle shape better than the others. I dislike the large clunky Narex handles. I've read that some people have reshaped the Narex handles with good results. The Baileys are similar to the Narex handles but smaller and have indents top and bottom than make them more comfortable. The Irwin handles were designed by someone who never used a chisel but I was able to make a pair of skews of $12, so I can't complain too much. The steel doesn't hold and edge as well as the others but they are usable.

If I were going to buy a premium chisel, it would be more about the balance and feel than anything else. I've never used a Stanley 750 or the LN chisels but they look like they'd feel good in use. I like the looks of the AI mark 2 style. The thinner lands seem nice especially for dovetails. they "look" like they would be well balanced, not too long or short and the handle shape would feel good in the hand. But I'd have to use then to know for sure.

Marples chisels are fantastic-I have LN and Japanese chisels that I sue for really fine work, but the Marples are the workhorses of my shop. Being cheap enough to bang on without guilt makes them wonderful. they take a good edge, and keep it really well.

Chris

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi Fred

OK, that is clearer now.

Actually you do not want a 1/8" chisel! You will be better off with a wide chisel, say 1"+. The issue here is not the chisel, but the best way to form a shallow dado.

A chisel will not leave a dado floor with the quality you may require. A router plane (with a 1/8") blade is ideal.

Well, thats a " slap myself in the forehead" moment. Thank you Derek. I never once thought to buy a 1/8" blade for my router plane. Though thinking about it, I think Ill take a cue from you and make one to fit my small router plane instead of buying one for my larger one.

I still see a use for a 1/8" in my shop - if only to get into hard to reach places. And I ordered a Narex yesterday. But the relative price difference really got me to wondering about the 'why' part of it. I figured there were things I didnt know, and reading all your responses made that very clear. Man, I never once thought about "balance" and how that affects things. Or how the thickness and side bevel impact where it can be used. Length and weight - I think I see the pros and cons of those in the Narex Paring chisels that many of us bought from LV last year. But I hadnt considered most of the rest of the points all of you mentioned.

And in addition to learning all that, I got two more unexpected things. First, I experienced first hand the kindness and generosity of people here, when one of you PM'd me, offering to send me a couple chisels to try. For no other reason than the kindness of a mentor to someone far less experienced with hand tools. Ive never had anything like that happen before, but I'll remember it forever, I assure you. Second, I learned a better way to do a common operation on my small boxes. Something Ive struggled with using had tools rather than an electric router. Again, by someone from far away, who was kind enough to take the time to teach.

And all of you folks - so many that I'm reluctant to name names for fear I'll forget someone - do similar things here every day. Patiently sharing what youve learned, over and over.

And I think thats why I enjoy SMC so much.

Sorry for getting sentimental on you guys. But I think its important to "tell" people sometimes.

Fred

[Kent A Bathurst]

I had a full line of Japanese chisels - up to very wide, including a lot of 1/16" "'tweeners". I also have a set of Narex and Stanley plastic handles.

Wasn't using many of the Japanese so I sold those on the Creek, and used the proceeds to buy a couple LN and a couple Blue Spruce.

I'm with Justice Lewis Powell on this: I can't describe it, but I know it when I see it.

The LN and the Blue Spruce are simply remarkable.

[george wilson]

Paul,if your chisels are like cheese,it means they were either not hardened enough to begin with,or were tempered TOO MUCH. If the chisels were not gotten hot enough in the hardening process,tempering would have softened them too much. The last thing you need to do is temper them some more. Tempering is a softening process,to make the steel less brittle and more tough. I'd return the bad chisels if possible. If you try hardening them again,they will warp badly due to the bevels that make more surface area on one side of the chisels.

[Steve Voigt]

Paul,if your chisels are like cheese,it means they were either not hardened enough to begin with,or were tempered TOO MUCH. The last thing you need to do is temper them some more. I'd return the bad chisels if possible. If you try hardening them again,they will warp badly due to the bevels that make more surface area on one side of the chisels.

Hi George,
I assume this is directed at me. I was referring to his friend's chisel, which is why I specifically quoted that in my post. Paul wrote:
"I have ground the damn thing at least three times, only to have the edge completely crumble the first time he uses it."
That doesn't sound like a chisel that's been tempered too much; quite the opposite. Unless I am misunderstanding what he means by 'crumble'--I took it to mean chipping and flaking.

[paul cottingham]

Paul,if your chisels are like cheese,it means they were either not hardened enough to begin with,or were tempered TOO MUCH. If the chisels were not gotten hot enough in the hardening process,tempering would have softened them too much. The last thing you need to do is temper them some more. Tempering is a softening process,to make the steel less brittle and more tough. I'd return the bad chisels if possible. If you try hardening them again,they will warp badly due to the bevels that make more surface area on one side of the chisels.

Thank you George. You are quite right, of course, I mixed my terminology up. Comes from being an historian and theologian, not a toolmaker! I would never try hardening a chisel, and would only try tempering one if I could afford to chuck it out.
i would love to have the skills, equipment, and hands to do that sort of work.

[Warren Mickley]

What qualities make a"better chisel" worth the cost? Maybe the biggest factor is marketing.

[Jim Matthews]

I was taught to test keenness of an edge with endgrain.

If the edge could slice the endgrain of Eastern pine,
it could likely manage most tasks.

It took me awhile to wrap my head around that notion,
paring the soft stuff is actually more difficult than paring the hard stuff.

[dan sherman]

In my opinion the biggest cost of a chisel is the manufacturing and quality assure processes, everything else is cheap by comparison.

[bill tindall]

If a chisel fits your hand, has good balance and the blade is the right shape to do what you need to do then you should be, and may have to be, willing to pay for these design attributes. It seems that cheap chisels have clunky handles and blades so you may have to pay more to get what is a functional and ergonomically favorable shape . Personally, I think the shape of the chisel is the most important factor in choosing a chisel.

Steel- there is but a few bucks of steel in a chisel for even the most expensive steel. So the steel raw material cost is not a large chisel price driver. However, different steels require different manufacturing procedures. The Lee Valley steel must be shaped by milling away what isn't a chisel from a steel bar. The process is relatively slow and wastes a lot of metal. Other steels can be forged which is faster and doesn't waste steel. The Lee Valley steel is the best steel for a production made chisel that I have personally used. I found it as good as CPM 3V. Plus the Lee valley steel is a stainless steel so it will likely never rust.

Can you sharpen it: Steel can differ greatly in abrasion resistance. Some steels require diamond abrasives to sharpen properly. If you are wedded to ARK stones you must pick a steel compatible with your sharpening media.

Function- the hardness and toughness of the steel determine how long the chisel edge lasts. The kinds of steel and the heat treating process determine hardness and toughness. Abrasion resistance is largely irrelevant. A steel that is best for a plane blade, an application where abrasion resistance is most important, may perform poorly as a chisel for it may lack the toughness necessary to prevent chipping.

Snob factor- Like a lot of things the reputation and popularity of the boutique chisel maker can add a lot to the cost with no addition improvement of function.

[Jim Koepke]

Snob factor- Like a lot of things the reputation and popularity of the boutique chisel maker can add a lot to the cost with no addition improvement of function.

Is it really snob factor as much as a small maker doesn't have a facility set up to turn these out in rates of hundreds per hour?

There is a video of the Narex factory (http://www.narextools.cz/en/chisels-production-video) showing an efficient factory production line. Blue Spruce chisels are not likely produced anywhere near that rate.

From my understanding the Narex do not come from the factory with flat backs, a quality for which the Veritas are well known. My guess could be incorrect, but are the wages in Canada higher than the wages in Czechoslovakia?

There may be some 'boutique' pricing. My guess would be many of the 'boutique' makers are not living high on the hog.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

I'm a craftsman by hobby, and a while craftsman is my most closely considered definition of my 'self' I do not consider myself anything more than a student to craft. I believe that quality craftsmanship and the process required to create it are incredibly important to the human experience. The intuitions developed by a craftsman take years to come to fruition in the form of a well executed product, so in purchasing a product created by a craftsman at the peak of his ability you are the beneficiary of his years of experience and insight.

I have removed myself from the BORG type store and product so much that I do not have their offerings to consider and thus only chose that which is produced by craftsman.

I do not view the support of the small and excellent makers to be snobbery.

[Jim Koepke]

I do not view the support of the small and excellent makers to be snobbery.

For those who appreciate the tools it is likely a good investment.

Very few of my tools come from today's makers. To me the few I have are a great investment.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

For those who appreciate the tools it is likely a good investment.

Very few of my tools come from today's makers. To me the few I have are a great investment.

jtk

Mine are mostly new but that's been my experience as well.

[Matthew N. Masail]

David, I wonder when you bought your AI chisels. I have a set bought about 6 months ago, they take a great edge and hold it better than or as well as any chisel I've had before. my only issue is with the 6mm chisel, it is too thin, at 2.2mm at the tip and 3.3mm at the bolster... way too thin for bench chisel work. the 9mm is 3mm and 4mm, and seems much stronger for it plus the width. the others are 4mm and 5mm, and the 3mm chisel is tall like a japanese chisel.

As for the OP question, Narex chisels are great IMO, but I much prefer to sharpen the steel in the AI. the AI also feel better in use to me, but if cost is an issue Narex is perfectly good.

[Kees Heiden]

The word Snob has a negative feel to it, but when you take it as a neutral description, then yes of course, only buying expensive crafstman made tools is snobistic. You only have to look at the incredible stuff made with downright primitive tools 500 years ago to understand that you don't need expensive modern tools nowadays either. The other way around is snobistic too of course. You can get quite decent chisel sets from the Aldi or Lidl supermarkets overhere, 6 chisels for 12 euro or so. And you can make the same kind of stuff with these as you can with the expensive ones (until you need a smaller size). But looking down on the tool consumers with your Aldi chisels firmly in hand, is snobistic too.

[Mike Henderson]

The word Snob has a negative feel to it, but when you take it as a neutral description, then yes of course, only buying expensive crafstman made tools is snobistic. You only have to look at the incredible stuff made with downright primitive tools 500 years ago to understand that you don't need expensive modern tools nowadays either. The other way around is snobistic too of course. You can get quite decent chisel sets from the Aldi or Lidl supermarkets overhere, 6 chisels for 12 euro or so. And you can make the same kind of stuff with these as you can with the expensive ones (until you need a smaller size). But looking down on the tool consumers with your Aldi chisels firmly in hand, is snobistic too.
To me, it depends on how you approach the purchase. When I look at a new tool technology, I ask myself if the advantages of the new technology are worth the extra cost over the older technology (worth it to me). If I feel it's worth it, I'll buy it. If not, I won't buy it.

An example is the Festool Domino. It's an expensive tool, and I thought long and hard about buying it, but I did buy it. And now, I use it quite a bit and really appreciate it. I could cut mortises by hand but I appreciate the speed and accuracy (and neatness) of the mortise produced by the Domino.

Another example is the new PM-V11 chisels that LV came out with. I bought several, and while they hold an edge longer, I don't know if they're a great leap forward. More like an step forward.

Mike

[David Weaver]

David, I wonder when you bought your AI chisels. I have a set bought about 6 months ago, they take a great edge and hold it better than or as well as any chisel I've had before. my only issue is with the 6mm chisel, it is too thin, at 2.2mm at the tip and 3.3mm at the bolster... way too thin for bench chisel work. the 9mm is 3mm and 4mm, and seems much stronger for it plus the width. the others are 4mm and 5mm, and the 3mm chisel is tall like a japanese chisel.

As for the OP question, Narex chisels are great IMO, but I much prefer to sharpen the steel in the AI. the AI also feel better in use to me, but if cost is an issue Narex is perfectly good.

6 years ago or so. I expected more out of them for their hardness spec (61), which in reality is very close to where a lot of the lower priced japanese tools are in hardness (like the basic iyoroi chisels, etc). They did not hold an edge any better than any of my vintage chisels, though. It's not like you couldn't use them - a tool that you can't use is pretty rare, I've encountered very few of such a thing.

A tool that beginners can be convinced they can't use is much more common (though it's far different than a tool that can't be used).

I just expected too much out of them, I guess.

I don't get enamored with "edge holding" like I used to, though, because it has very little to do with actual working. modifying sharpening technique to be quick enough that it doesn't matter is far more valuable - even if the chisels are good at edge holding. I do marvel at chisels that hold a good edge and sharpen very easily, but there aren't many chisels of that type (and it still doesn't have a lot to do with actually getting work done - familarity probably has a lot more to do with getting work done, whether tools are good or mediocre).

Anyway, I guess I expected too much from the AIs. Most of what I've seen puts them short of what LN chisels do in terms of edge holding, which is in line with what I've seen.

[David Weaver]

There may be some 'boutique' pricing. My guess would be many of the 'boutique' makers are not living high on the hog.

jtk

I'm not sure that describing chisels by how much margin the maker makes is really a good differentiator in snob factor. It has more to do with doing things less efficiently than manufacturers and appealing to people as something exclusive, but without doing anything that improves what people actual chisel use (vs. perceived).

[Matthew N. Masail]

6 years ago or so. I expected more out of them for their hardness spec (61), which in reality is very close to where a lot of the lower priced japanese tools are in hardness (like the basic iyoroi chisels, etc). They did not hold an edge any better than any of my vintage chisels, though. It's not like you couldn't use them - a tool that you can't use is pretty rare, I've encountered very few of such a thing.

A tool that beginners can be convinced they can't use is much more common (though it's far different than a tool that can't be used).

I just expected too much out of them, I guess.

I don't get enamored with "edge holding" like I used to, though, because it has very little to do with actual working. modifying sharpening technique to be quick enough that it doesn't matter is far more valuable - even if the chisels are good at edge holding. I do marvel at chisels that hold a good edge and sharpen very easily, but there aren't many chisels of that type.

Anyway, I guess I expected too much from the AIs. Most of what I've seen puts them short of what LN chisels do in terms of edge holding, which is in line with what I've seen.

Ok, that sounds more like it (-: your first comment made them sound like duds... which got me thinking the chisel they sell now are somewhat different. if I lived in the US I'd send you one to try out.




In any case, true that any decent chisel will do if you know how to sharpen quickly and easily, thats really the key. for the sake of it AI web site says they aim for 59-61RC, I don't think mine are 61, because they sharpen more like a vintage chisels (maybe a little harder), and sharpen quick-ish on oil stones too. this might be just what O1 or such chisels are like, I haven't used other O1 chisels that weren't vintage. but the steel in these is definitely quite good, clean dry sharp easy to work with and not brittle at all. holds a fine edge below 30.
the Koyomaichi chisels were definitely much harder, I didn't like them as much, and they felt a little brittle to me.




I haven't tried the LN, but have yet to be impressed by an A2 blade... in my apron plane the edge just seems to fold over (sharpened at 30..)

[David Weaver]

Chip free work in any blade (as in failure only by wear) is going to require something just north of 32 degrees. When we sharpen by hand, if we get good durability, we're probably somewhere close to that with the very final bevel, but you can get acceptable durability below that. That kind of perfection, absolutely chip free, is really only required for a final smoothing plane on some presentation surface (but it is nice to have).

A decent A2 chisel should work fine at 30 degrees, as should a blade. I think most of the advantage of A2 goes to the manufacturers, as it sound as though it's easier to harden it without warping than oil hardening. LN tried water hardening, and found it above their ability to make a good blade on a commercial level (I don't know what makes good water hardening practice other than a craftsman who knows how to work it). The market that LN serves is fascinated with tools that hold their edge as long as possible, I guess because people are told that's more important than fitting a regimen together that makes for good workflow (which would instead emphasize taking large shavings when you can and doing very little smoothing compared to the rest of the work at hand).

LV's V11 feels like a finer grained A2 to me, or a fined grain 440C but it's more durable than both. It definitely doesn't sharpen like carbon steel on natural stones the way carbon steel does, but it can be sharpened just fine on carbon steel if you spend some time to thin the wire edge or use something that would chase it (jasper) or eliminate it (some kind of japanese finish stone, which is an expensive solution to a simple problem).

The more times I go around in circles, the more I favor the vintage stuff - it fits my workflow better.

I haven't had any noticeable chipping of any significance since going to sharpening the way we've described the last couple of years (working as little metal as possible), but it's probably because I have a shallower primary grind bevel and a very small secondary bevel that's steeper than I think it is. And to some extent, all of us will get better at protecting edges as we work longer.

(it appears that AI has widened their range a little bit for hardness spec. They were provided as 61 specifically when i got mine, but it's unlikely they were actually that hard)

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Lots of good thoughts I this thread, and I don't think I have much to add (other than that I really enjoy my AI mk 2 chisel, a 1/4" one I've had for a while now).

But one thing that strikes me is that Frederick says he's looking for an eighth inch chisel. In my experience, when you start looking at blades this narrow, the quality doesn't matter nearly as much unless you're trying to do really deep, narrow mortises. I've used sharpened screwdrivers and cut nails for small sizes like this when I wanted something small and precisely sized (i.e., I didn't want to grind down one of my chisels needlessly) for non-heavy jobs. (Like fitting stringing or binding).

I would tend to go for cheaper on a chisel like this unless I had reason to expect a lot of use or heavy use out of it. The Narex, I believe, have all got the same clunky handles, however - which I don't mind in the larger chisels, but seem like they'd be annoying on a small blade. I would want to alter that handle, but that wouldn't be too much work.

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi guys. My 1/8" Narex arrived Friday. I sharpened it last night and she cuts nicely. Mr. Koepke is right - I had to flatten the back a bit, but that wasnt tough on something this narrow. One thing that WAS interesting - Highland's online store calls this a bevel edge chisel. But the only bevel I can see is on the cutting edge - the sides are dead flat, and looks just like a mortise chisel to my eyes. (The profile matches my Narex 1/4" mortiser very closely too, though the handle is different.) My first thought was that someone pulled/shipped the wrong tool. But the item number shipped matches the item number that I wanted. And, Highland doesnt seem to sell a 3 mm mortise chisel, which reduces the likelihood of a mistake. Oddly, the pic online is bevelled even though the chisel is not. Dunno. I may call them tomorrow just for grins. But its a nice tool, regardless - just different than what I expected.
Thanks again,
Fred

[Jim Koepke]

One thing that WAS interesting - Highland's online store calls this a bevel edge chisel. But the only bevel I can see is on the cutting edge - the sides are dead flat, and looks just like a mortise chisel to my eyes.

There are many things that could account for you chisel not being bevel edged. Having worked in a stock/store room more than a few times, I know things can get placed in the wrong box. It can also happen at the factory.

If you want one with beveled edges and they can verify others in stock have them, then an exchange might be in order. If you do not want an exchange, you may be of help to them discovering that they actually have two different types of chisels in stock or the specifications might have changed.

My 1/8" Buck Brothers chisel is tall like a mortise chisel but it does have a slight taper at the top of the sides. My (Berg ?) 3mm chisel has very flat and square sides with a lower profile than the Buck.

jtk

[Graham Haydon]

I don't really use such narrow chisels but I have a random vintage item (3mm) and it's just tall and straight, perhaps with a slight bevel. I would think bevelling a 3mm chisel would make it ultra fragile and a touch useless?