Radial Arm: Omga vs Original Saw Co.?

[Christian Pryor]

I'm considering buying a radial arm saw. I know they're something of a luxury item these days, but it'll help me save time with halflaps and dados. I've read some posts here that say two companies, OMGA and Original Saw Company produce very good/excellent saws, but anyone know which is best? The seem similar-ish in price (~$4,000). Trouble is, I don't have any way of putting 'hands on' either of these machines, and with a purchase this big I'd like to do my research up front.

Anyone have experience with either of these brands? Are there other brands aside from these you'd suggest? How's the customer-service? Is it difficult to get parts if/when the machine breaks?

[Jeff Heath]

FOUR GRAND! Are you crazy? Get yourself an older DeWalt or, even better, a Northfield Unipoint (vintage) that's been restored for 1/4th that money by someone who knows what they are doing. The older machines are way better than what you can are looking at new today.

[HANK METZ]

DeWalt made a spread of models that answered any need for woodworkers, they are cheap to acquire, and easy enough to restore. If your needs are modest and infrequent, a model 1200 or 1400 (my daily driver) will do quite nicely. They go for under $100 in my area, sometimes even GIVEN away; one fellow found his roadside, although somewhat underpowered, the accuracy is no less astonishing. This is not bashing old Delta iron either, their turret models are equal in stature as far as knowledgeable enthusiasts are concerned, and special groups do exist to aid you in the rebuild process.

[Larry Edgerton]

I switched from restored old iron [16" Delta Turret] to an Omga RM700. I don't care what the common consensus is, I have owned both and the Omga is much better. Even though it weighs half as much the Omga is much stiffer, so less flex. The carriage on the Omga is a much better design, and totally rebuildable if need be. I don't use it as much these days, but it is a handy tool.

Thats a lot of money though if it is for occasional use or you do not need the extended reach and precision of the Omga. If I recall corectly my 700 was about $4500 15 years ago.

Larry

[Peter Quinn]

The new original saw models are as good and in most cases better than anything dewAlt made. I have one of those great old dewalts, I'd trade it in a heArt beat for an original saw. Carraige return, braking blade, modern Cnc machining, these new original saws are really very good, best of the old dewalt plus some great upgrades. Never laid hands on an Omga RAS but their chop saws are pretty substantial. I would not make his investment blind, go to a show or find a vendor that either hAs one or can refer you to an owner in your area that will show you theirs.

[Max Neu]

I have an Omga pneumatic upcut saw, and they are high quality machines, like most other European machines.I didn't even know they made RAS' s.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I don't have an RAS. Doubtful I ever will. Don't like them, and never needed one.

But - If I was going to get one, I would get one from the Original Saw Co. The quality and range of products they make is jaw-dropping. A $4k OSC is at the bottom end of their product line, in terms of size and capabilities.


The older machines are way better than what you can are looking at new today.

There are risks in generalizations. While this statement is often true true, in general, v. Chi-wanese imports today, it is not correct when it come to OSC. Their machines are every bit as good - if not better - that the "older machines" were when they shipped new from the factory. If you were to get a used OSC today, you have factory support in terms of parts and service. If you can find one - they are rare on the used market because they don't wear out, and no one wants to get rid of theirs.

In fact, in 1989 B&D got out of the stationary machine business, and sold the RAS operation to 2 executives. This was the original Dewalt machine, which has become the OSC.

In terms of a Unipoint saw - whether Northfield or any of the other makes, it is kind of a unique creature in the RAS world. THe concept is straightforward - the frame's pivot is built so that the saw rotates about the intersection of the blade line and the back fence - that is always the zero-zero point. So - you can confidently use a length measurment device on the tables, and get an accurate cut to that dimension, regardless of the angle.

Why would you want this? This style is "at home" in cutting parts for rafters and trusses. The stroke will let you make very shallow actute angle cuts - we are talking a 24" scarf cut here. A "regular design" RAS cannot do these things. If you were ever in a truss manufacturing operations, or watching wizards custom-frame rafters on big-$$ homes, you would - honestly - be amazed at what those guys can accomplish with a unipoint, in terms of productivity. They have a measurement device on the outfeed dtable, and are making one or 2 cuts before changing setup.

But - they take up one darn big amount of room. The job-site guys have them mounted on dedicated trailers. Nothing at all wrong with them, but often the wrong size hammer for the nail you are trying to hit.

I have no interest in OSC, for the record. Except, I have seem them, I have made a few pulls on them, and I am unreservedly impressed.

[Peter Kelly]

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c258/Real_Scrit/UK%20Workshop%20Images/PortableSaw.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJkfcuX03f8#t=36

[Ted Reischl]

I have run RAS's for years. Had two DeWalt's, a 10 and 12 inch. Have a (OMG!) Ridgid that I bought about 10 years ago. They ALL work just fine for half laps and dadoes.

All of them have been extremely accurate. The way to accuracy with a RAS is by not taking a death grip on the handle. The way to avoid that depth grip is to get the correct blade. I use 80 tooth negative rakes. When half lapping that is not possible so I let the saw grip push against the heel of my hand to keep it from climbing. It also pays to not try to cut 13/16 wide by an inch deep.

There is no freakn way I would ever pay more than 500 bucks for a RAS. I don't care what the marketing geniuses dream up to tell me why I should.

[jack forsberg]

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/attachments/f79/119745d1413762647-why-radial-arm-saws-bought-rarely-used-wadkin-cc-1.jpg


+1 i got two of theses wadkin CC Cross cuts for $400 each and i don't worry about parts because these don't brake or need parts. I am with Jeff your nuts to pay $4000 with the glut of RAS on the market in the $200 range for top models.Do your research on the better models out there. I have an older Delta 14" with VFD i picked up for $143 added the VFD and am well under $500 for a dead nuts saw.
You better hope them OSC and Ogama saws run on robots for that price.LOL


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiIYHs-nNTU&list=UUI6jpIs2zjN9DmVvK2ZAWXA

[Joe Calhoon]

Here is a Graule. In the European market it is considered the most accurate radial arm and the used prices over there reflect that. Downside for Cristian is you cannot put dados or groovers in this saw. They make a separate one for that. Another good thing is the blade guarding in the park position. Ours is mid size and will cut 5 3/8" thick. They have one that will cut almost 8".

Over the years we had several old Dewalts, large and small. I could never keep any of them cutting accurate in a production setting and they were used for only rough cutoff. I do know a couple hobby woodworkers that were able to keep Dewalts accurate with constant fiddling and tuning. It depends a lot on your application and volume of cutting you will be doing.

Joe


300840300841

[Cary Falk]

I think you are crazy also with the used RAS market being what it is. You could probably get a 14" or 16" saw for <$1K any day of the week. Less if you looked around a little. Post your location and you could probably get a lot more help. OWWW and the DeWalt RAS forums are great help also.

[HANK METZ]

Here is a Graule. In the European market it is considered the most accurate radial arm and the used prices over there reflect that. Downside for Cristian is you cannot put dados or groovers in this saw. They make a separate one for that. Another good thing is the blade guarding in the park position. Ours is mid size and will cut 5 3/8" thick. They have one that will cut almost 8".

Over the years we had several old Dewalts, large and small. I could never keep any of them cutting accurate in a production setting and they were used for only rough cutoff. I do know a couple hobby woodworkers that were able to keep Dewalts accurate with constant fiddling and tuning. It depends a lot on your application and volume of cutting you will be doing.

Joe




You were doing something wrong then. DeWalt saws played a major role in the building of Leavittown, among other post WWII developments. The saws did it all from cutting to length, to cutting compound angles for rafters, even doing the bird's mouth angle for the top plate intersect. Although not the only one to do mass housing production, Leavitt was the most well- known name, being successful with his pre- cut home packages delivered on site, ready for erection with little need for actual rough work. This was done at his lumber yard, where millions of boards were processed per his specs, and he was not an easy man to please:
http://statemuseumpa.org/levittown/images/lg_jpegs/E19P2.jpg http://statemuseumpa.org/levittown/images/lg_jpegs/E19P3.jpg

The original DeWalt machines were, and still are, best of breed, with muliplicity of design patents and progressive innovation, they had their day in the sun as do all things, but the survivors can and in fact do outperform contemporary designs with little attention to maintenance.

[Scott Stafford]

Christian,

I think this thread has somewhat taken on a direction of its own. I have a twenty year-old Delta 12" RAS that I bought new. I don't use it much, but there are times when it will do things easier and maybe better than any other machine or method.

Two things in my opinion. First, there is not much worse machine than a cheap radial arm saw. Inaccurate, and built to stay that way. You'll spend all of your time trying to adjust and align it.

Next, there is a place for those who have time and/or desire to restore vintage machines. I believe that they are some of the best; true labors of love. But that just isn't my thing. I'd rather pay for a high quality, lifetime tool and get on with my passion of building furniture. Plus, where I live, I'd never find a highly restored RAS.

Enjoy your buying experience and peace of mind that comes with owning a very nice tool. Sorry I have no information to share on the tools you're looking at.


Scott in Montana

[Joe Calhoon]

Well put Scott. There is nothing wrong about the OP asking about the new saws and I think he has narrowed down two very capable brands. The Graule is not easy to buy new over here.
Like you I am not in a very good area for easy pickings of vintage machinery. I have a few pieces I picked up that did not need much work as I have no time for full on restoration either.
RAS's are funny things. In the day they were the thing for cutting rafters and such. They are a multipurpose saw with a lot of adjustments that make keeping in tune hard. I think in a home shop they can be useful for cutting some angles and joinery if you don't mind the setup. In a pro shop there are better more accurate ways to do this.
In my shop the RAS gets used a lot for busting rough boards to workable length. I could never depend on them for accurate square cuts when needed. The Graule has solved this. We can break down the rough and still use it for accurate square cuts. Any angles and extreme accurate crosscuts happen at the slider. If I had not found this I was ready to move on a Omga upcut like Max mentioned. I have used one of those and very nice.

Joe

[Joe Calhoon]

You were doing something wrong then. DeWalt saws played a major role in the building of Leavittown, among other post WWII developments. The saws did it all from cutting to length, to cutting compound angles for rafters, even doing the bird's mouth angle for the top plate intersect. Although not the only one to do mass housing production, Leavitt was the most well- known name, being successful with his pre- cut home packages delivered on site, ready for erection with little need for actual rough work. This was done at his lumber yard, where millions of boards were processed per his specs, and he was not an easy man to please:

The original DeWalt machines were, and still are, best of breed, with muliplicity of design patents and progressive innovation, they had their day in the sun as do all things, but the survivors can and in fact do outperform contemporary designs with little attention to maintenance.

Hank,
No disrespect meant for the old Dewalts. I think for cutting rafters and a lot of carpentry tasks they are good. I still have a nice vintage 12" in storage. My issue with all of them including the 16" was I could spend a lot of time getting it square vertical and crosscut only to find it getting out after cutting a few hundred feet of 8/4 hardwood.

Joe

[Christian Pryor]

Thanks for all the input everyone, I really appreciate it. I agree with what Scott and Joe are saying, I'll pay for quality, so long as it'll last me. I've looked into some refurbs here in the Tampa, FL area. Although these old machines still might do a decent job once improved upon, I'd like something that's more worry-free. I don't have time or, to be honest, even the inclination to rebuild a machine.

I'm sort of leaning towards the OMGA at this point, it's got more horsepower 5hp vs 3hp, a 14" blade vs 12" and the crosscut capacity is 27 1/2" vs 24". The thing that's slowing down my decision, is that the Original Saw is built in the US. I'm a strong believer in buying American-made, not to get too preachy. I'd also think that the US made saw "should" be easier to find parts for, in the event that something broke. If you jump to the 14" blade on the OSC RAS, you'd need to drop $6,000, which seems like a huge jump.

Anyway, I haven't made my decision yet, so any other input is more than welcome. But again, thanks for all the great feedback.

[jack forsberg]

Anyway, I haven't made my decision yet, so any other input is more than welcome. But again, thanks for all the great feedback.

The only thing i would add is though i understand you not wanting an old warn out machine and that a new one my give you that feel good about parts replacement support I do question your chose of machine for the said work and your needs . Given the budget at your disposal i would not be looking for a RAS new for joinery work. A spindle moulder capable of spinning 300mm cutters or a tenoner may be a better machine to improve production and quality of your work. It looks like even Joe only uses his RAS for brake down most of time and that's where i and some others think you would be better served in the used market. That said i don't have the problems some have expressed to get a used machine up to top shape or better than new but i can tell you the RAS is about the easiest of them all IMO. Your never going to do that with a warn machine and or never have to deal with ware on machines unless your the uncommon type that has a endless supply of money to buy the latest greatest.

for those interested in what makes a great saw RAS beyond the price Tag here is MHO
dewalt made some serious saws like the TC44 with a 44"Blade https://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/images/smilies/1eek.gif. this one inside the USS Constitution Repair Shop at the Charlestown Navy Yard

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x255/auditattoo/MePopandRAS.jpg
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x255/auditattoo/RASblades.jpg


Comet made a big one too
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc150/cfernandez_2007/owwmposted/8177399.jpg

the problem with the dewalts or saw that run the cartage motor in a yoke is the bearing are only 8" to 10" apart and so ware the ways and with the dewalts this was always the problem. the dewalts bearings ran on milled ways in the cast iron and so the hardened outer race of the bearings ware the arm and could not be repaired unless a machine shop machined them.Makers like the Northfield Unipoint was a better design when it came to function IMO and i do believe is still being made for around $10,000. the better designs have replacement ways or set the bearings in ram heads like the Wadkin that are 18" apart and run on replaceable drill rod. these type saw stay true in heavy use.

http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/images/9830-B.jpg

Willson made a fine saws too that ran the bearings on heavy iron bars that you could flip.
http://www.owwm.com/photoindex/images/8840-A.jpg

[Max Neu]

Christian,
You mentioned you wanted this saw for dado's and half laps,have you considered a panel router?I use a Safety Speed Cut panel router,and it makes quick work out of dadoes,just a thought.

[HANK METZ]

Hank,
No disrespect meant for the old Dewalts. I think for cutting rafters and a lot of carpentry tasks they are good. I still have a nice vintage 12" in storage. My issue with all of them including the 16" was I could spend a lot of time getting it square vertical and crosscut only to find it getting out after cutting a few hundred feet of 8/4 hardwood.

Joe

Joe, no umbrage taken, sometimes it's a good idea to pause and look back at where we've been to put things in context today. In between this thread's posts, I have ripped and resawn a hunk of Cherry for a project I'm working on. Ripping on the radial is considered bad enough by some, but when you also resaw with it, people think you're in league with the Prince of Darkness for daring such a deed, yet it handily does it well, and accurately too. Probably 'nuff said on my part, the o.p. seems to be near making a decision it seems, so I don't want to be piling it on.

[Thomas Hotchkin]

Christian, Here you go right next door 16" Dewalt. http: //tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/tls/4753866622.html

[Jeff Duncan]

Jack hit on a good point that many guys seem to have missed, those older $200 used DeWalts of the size your looking for are almost certainly worn out. These were not the size saws bought by hobbyists and used every so often. These were saws used day in and day out and have the wear to prove it. I have one of those $200 saws and will hopefully refurbish it someday. I'm looking at something in the $1k range to get her set up the way she should be. Roughly $500 + shipping both ways for re-milling the ways. Then new bearings throughout as well as new wiring. I'm a big fan of older iron and own my share of it, but it's rare you get a cherry machine for peanuts as some would have you believe.

As far as American vs Import that's a personal decision. I buy the best quality machines I can afford and my shop is made up of machines from 1/2 dozen plus different countries.

good luck,
JeffD

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe, no umbrage taken, sometimes it's a good idea to pause and look back at where we've been to put things in context today. In between this thread's posts, I have ripped and resawn a hunk of Cherry for a project I'm working on. Ripping on the radial is considered bad enough by some, but when you also resaw with it, people think you're in league with the Prince of Darkness for daring such a deed, yet it handily does it well, and accurately too. Probably 'nuff said on my part, the o.p. seems to be near making a decision it seems, so I don't want to be piling it on.

Hank, in the 50s and 60s my 2 uncles owned the local lumberyard. Unlike nowadays they bought all their lumber from a local saw mill and air dried, planed and sawed everything. All they had was a big Newman 4 side planer moulder and a big Dewalt. No other saw. They would split 2x material to make 1X T&G all on the saw. Cut to length and everything. They are both gone now. The one uncle took care of all sharpening and knife grinding. The wood was all old growth Ponderosa Pine.
Joe

[Joe Jensen]

I have a 1970s Dewalt (dual marked Black and Decker/Dewalt). The original saw company makes an updated version from similar castings. My saw is only a 3HP 14". A local dealer has had new OMGA saws in a few times on the floor. The ones I saw had very long arms, maybe 40" or longer. I'd guess a 30" crosscut?

If buying new I'd go OMGA based on what I saw and I own the older version of the Original Saw Co.

[HANK METZ]

Hank, in the 50s and 60s my 2 uncles owned the local lumberyard. Unlike nowadays they bought all their lumber from a local saw mill and air dried, planed and sawed everything. All they had was a big Newman 4 side planer moulder and a big Dewalt. No other saw. They would split 2x material to make 1X T&G all on the saw. Cut to length and everything. They are both gone now. The one uncle took care of all sharpening and knife grinding. The wood was all old growth Ponderosa Pine.
Joe

Funny thing about uncles there Joe. Mine were up in New Hampshire in the '50's and '60's, all built their own homes. I'd go with them to the local lumber yard and, like you, smelled the pitch and caught the fever. Ask for a 7 footer of 5” crown, if all they had was 10 footers, that's what you took home but only paid for a 7. They had a big pile of cutoffs and scrap, take all you want for the wood stove folks and have a nice day. Gone but not forgotten.

[Ed Labadie]

Jeff brings up a good point on the wear issue. I was lucky with both my DeWalt GE's, the first one from a lumberyard and the second from a state institution, neither had any wear that causes problems.

Back in the 70's we had a truss company in our town, the first guy in the saw shop every morning turned on the lights, then the DeWalt 16".....it would run all day, only getting shut down for a blade change or quitting time.

Ed

[Kent A Bathurst]

Back in the 70's we had a truss company in our town, the first guy in the saw shop every morning turned on the lights, then the DeWalt 16".....it would run all day, only getting shut down for a blade change or quitting time.

Ed

Yep. Today, truss operations of any size have 5-blade component saws, computer controlled. Data is downloaded from the design software, and the saw operator simply has to hit the Next Setup button, and in 20 seconds max [often more like 6 - 8, if you have organized the cut list sequence correctly], the moveable head has adjusted for length, and all 5 blades have rotated as needed to the correct angles.

The operator has to confirm the correct lumber item is on deck, and he has to feed that monster as fast as it eats.

$220k +/- new.

And still...........still.............you will find at least one unipoint-style saw in every shop. There are some items where it is better to cut on thsi saw than run through the monster. And still..........still............that saw runs full-time, every shift, every day.

[peter gagliardi]

Maybe I misunderstand the OP, but dados and half laps can be accomplished quite easily and accurately on a sliding table saw that can accept dado blades on the spindle and open up the table opening.
I have run the Delta 16" turret arm RAS, and a 10" DeWalt MBF in my last shop location. The Delta was far,far and away the more accurate machine and stayed that way.
However, they were used for busting down to rough length mostly, and worked well in that capacity. When we moved to the new shop we were intent on setting them up again, but had to work,and set up at night. The RAS's never got placed.
I found it much easier on my back to bring the light piece- aka skilsaw to the heavy pieces- aka timber, and cut them right on the cart they get stacked on from delivery- less time , less effort, less back problems! Just plain easier.
I will be the first to admit that the RAS does have its ideal uses, just not maybe for the way I work now.

[Joe Calhoon]

Maybe I misunderstand the OP, but dados and half laps can be accomplished quite easily and accurately on a sliding table saw that can accept dado blades on the spindle and open up the table opening.
I have run the Delta 16" turret arm RAS, and a 10" DeWalt MBF in my last shop location. The Delta was far,far and away the more accurate machine and stayed that way.
However, they were used for busting down to rough length mostly, and worked well in that capacity. When we moved to the new shop we were intent on setting them up again, but had to work,and set up at night. The RAS's never got placed.
I found it much easier on my back to bring the light piece- aka skilsaw to the heavy pieces- aka timber, and cut them right on the cart they get stacked on from delivery- less time , less effort, less back problems! Just plain easier.
I will be the first to admit that the RAS does have its ideal uses, just not maybe for the way I work now.

Hi Peter,
If I had your square footage this is how I would do it:)

Joe300994

[Larry Edgerton]

.
I found it much easier on my back to bring the light piece- aka skilsaw to the heavy pieces- aka timber, and cut them right on the cart they get stacked on from delivery- less time , less effort, less back problems! Just plain easier.
I will be the first to admit that the RAS does have its ideal uses, just not maybe for the way I work now.

Ditto. I am pushing sixty after a life of hard work, and the skilsaw is getting a lot more use on heavy stock.

Larry

[peter gagliardi]

Hi Peter,
If I had your square footage this is how I would do it:)

Joe300994

Joe, that could definitely work, but I know that is the pricier option, and I bet it's not as quick- But, a skilsaw definitely lacks the coolness factor of that setup!!

[Scott Stafford]

In an earlier post I encouraged you to buy a new saw if that's what you want............ Well.... there is a used OMGA RN450 for sale on the IRS auctions dot com website. This company is not associated with the Internal Revenue Service, to my knowledge.

The current bid is $50!


Scott in Montana

[Rick Potter]

Too bad you live on the wrong side of the country. I would invite you to take a look at my OMGA RN900, with the 37" crosscut. Definitely more saw than I need.

Rick P