Using a Kreg tool..

[Ryan Grubbs]

While I think using a Kreg is not necessarily a bad idea by any means, I dont think high end furniture should be put together using a Kreg.

Does anyone else have opinions here? Or would you scoff at someone trying to sell "high end custom furniture" attached using a Kreg tool?

[glenn bradley]

I think that by "a Kreg tool" you are referring to pocket hole joinery which has been in use way before people knew what Kreg was. Is this what you mean? I see shoddy kitchen cabinets assembled with tongue and groove and mortise and tenon joinery; this does not make it fine furniture ;-)

[Ryan Grubbs]

I think that by "a Kreg tool" you are referring to pocket hole joinery which has been in use way before people knew what Kreg was. Is this what you mean? I see shoddy kitchen cabinets assembled with tongue and groove and mortise and tenon joinery; this does not make it fine furniture ;-)


Yessir. Please excuse me, as I'm not too keen on all of the terminology yet.

I'm referring to drilling an angled hole and screwing them together on top of glue. Yes.

[Ryan Grubbs]

Maybe a better question to ask - - - what, in your opinion, do you consider to be high end/nice furniture? Is it the finish, how it's joined, the styling, all of it, what?

[Matt Day]

Pocket holes aren't what many would consider "traditional" joinery, but it is a very strong joint if done properly and is very fast and efficient. I think that it's a great joint for any kind of production work whether it be cabinets or furniture, as long as it's out of sight for the most part.

As woodworkers, we sometimes need to remind ourselves that most people could care less if a M&T joint was cut by hand or pocket holes or dowels or biscuits were used.

To your second question, I think fine furniture is in the eye of the beholder. Seems like a stir-the-pot kind of thread.

[Ryan Grubbs]

Dont mean to get the poo stinking, just trying to get some ideas as to what some people see as "shotty" work, while others may deem okay.


Pocket holes aren't what many would consider "traditional" joinery, but it is a very strong joint if done properly and is very fast and efficient. I think that it's a great joint for any kind of production work whether it be cabinets or furniture, as long as it's out of sight for the most part.

As woodworkers, we sometimes need to remind ourselves that most people could care less if a M&T joint was cut by hand or pocket holes or dowels or biscuits were used.

To your second question, I think fine furniture is in the eye of the beholder. Seems like a stir-the-pot kind of thread.

[Matt Day]

I think pocket holes are far from shoddy, but like any joint it must be executed properly. Shoddy work to me is a joint that doesn't pull together all the way, is unstable, cracks the wood, is not designed properly to account for wood movement or load, etc etc. You'll know it when you see it. Most people aren't going to post pictures of it though ;)

One of the nice things about this hobby is you can do what you want. Pick your materials, joinery, etc, and don't worry about what others think as long as you or your SO like it.

[Ryan Grubbs]

Any informational links to wood movement? I've never considered this in the past when building tables. Granted I've never used exotic woods before ha

[Matt Day]

All wood moves, domestic or exotic.
Google wood movement and I'm sure you'll find lots of info. There's also a movement calculator called the shrinkulator.

[Lee Schierer]

There is nothing wrong with using pocket ole screws to build furniture of any kind. I use pocket holes in my furniture where they won't be seen. I don't care for the look of plugged pocket holes, though I sometime plug pocket holes. I generally use pocket holes to attach internal frames to side panels and face frames. I prefer to use lap joints for face frames.

You can account for wood movement and still use pocket holes by elongating the small screw hole from the joint side before you put the screw in.

[Jim Becker]

The method of construction isn't necessarily related to the quality of the piece. Pocket screws and glue have their place, even in so-called "high-end" furniture and cabinetry. But it's also important to use joinery appropriate for the task and the expected stresses on the piece.

[lowell holmes]

When I build mortise and tenon chairs, I attach the arms to the side of the back posts often times with 1 1/2" woodscrews under a wood plug. The same for rockers to all four posts. I don't see any difference using pocket screws carefully. I would do it if a situation presented itself requiring it.

I have shop stools made entirely with pocket screw joinery and you have to pick the piece up and turn it over to know it is pocket screw joinery.

I would not likely use pocket screws for the crown or butt rail to a post though.

[glenn bradley]

Maybe a better question to ask - - - what, in your opinion, do you consider to be high end/nice furniture? Is it the finish, how it's joined, the styling, all of it, what?

I see pocket holes as a solution from time to time. Some of my pieces go through design changes during the build due to my wanting to take advantage of a certain piece of figure or a mistake at the drawing board. If I am already at a stage of assembly where more traditional joinery is not possible, a pocket hole joint can cure my ills. I also use them as a mechanical reinforcing tool for thin trim pieces in difficult locations.

300808

Had this joint been planned it would have been splined or T&G. Due to wanting to change the profile (arc) of the piece in mid stream, pocket holes became my friend. I also use pocket holes with oversized through-holes to attach small table tops where the amount of movement won't overrun the amount of room to move.

[Cary Falk]

As mentioned before, pocket holes have been around long before Kreg. The are so may was to connect board, I say use what works. I'm not a purest. I build somethin so it will stay together. I get a kick out of these kinds of threads. Everybody ask if a so and so joint is appropiate but nobody ask if the TBII that they are using was around when the 15th century piece they are copying was made. As far as that goes, throw out all you power tools because they weren't around either. :D

[mike holden]

I would like to point out that the Townsend-Goddard family used pocket screws on their furniture.
This picture is from "the Master Craftsmen of Newport" and shows a pocket screw(s) holding the top to the frame. Look at the lower left of the image. There is another visible on the lower right side as well.
300862
So if it is good enough for furniture that now is valued in the millions of dollars, then it is certainly good enough for anything I might do or buy.
Mike

[Bill Ryall]

Wow... Just... Wow...

Really? I build custom furniture, both residential and specialty commercial technical furniture. Not meaning to come across with the arrogance of the OP, but my work is very high quality designed to last for generations. I use Kreg joinery a lot- it absolutely has its place it both types of furniture. To suggest that a specific tried and true fastening system should not be used, or a piece is not high end because it uses a specific system displays an arrogance almost beyond comprehension.

[Rick Potter]

Never made any 'fine furniture', but I have seen pocket holes used in hidden places on a lot of antiques.

One thing that interested me at the Colonial Williamsburg cabinet shop a couple days ago, was that they had used square cut (of course) nails to hold trim on and also to hold the top shelf, which will be under trim when it's finished.

Rick P

[Ryan Grubbs]

Not arrogance, Bill, ignorance. There is a definitive difference! I'm completely new to different joining techniques.

I am most curious as to people's opinion, although I admit after re-reading my post, it comes of like a fishing expedition. So sorry for that.

Poor verbiage on my behalf.


Wow... Just... Wow...

Really? I build custom furniture, both residential and specialty commercial technical furniture. Not meaning to come across with the arrogance of the OP, but my work is very high quality designed to last for generations. I use Kreg joinery a lot- it absolutely has its place it both types of furniture. To suggest that a specific tried and true fastening system should not be used, or a piece is not high end because it uses a specific system displays an arrogance almost beyond comprehension.

[David Weaver]

Just a side opinion, I don't make things to sell, so time isn't an issue with me. I would never buy anything above commodity furniture with pocket screws, and I'll never put them in anything.

My parents have a house full of vintage furniture that is of good quality (I mean more vintage than mission or craftsman stuff - I don't care for that at all, it's basically commodity stuff, too), and there is no pocket screw joinery in any of it.

To each their own, I don't have any interest in convincing anyone else to like what I like, but to me they are the height of tacky, the sign of the kind of junk that is pedaled to woodworkers in catalogs - magic plastic jigs, proprietary drill bits, etc.

[Bill Ryall]

I apologize for my reaction. After rereading my response, I realize it was pretty harsh.

Since most of my furniture work is for clients, time = money. The Kreg system provides for quick, strong joints in certain circumstances. It is not a be-all end-all but it absolutely has it's place, even in high end pieces. As demonstrated above, there is even a historical precedent for this type of joinery.

[Moses Yoder]

I don't see how you can use wood in high end custom furniture. It has slivers, it is difficult to work with, it cracks, it rots, eventually it falls apart. I simply fail to comprehend how a joint that will last longer than the wood itself can in any way be considered inferior to the project. Naturally, there are desirable and undesirable applications of the joint.

[DOUG ANGEL]

I agree with Bill Ryall, if it is appropriate, use it. Having said that I don't use them at all, because I'm just a retired hobbyist. No such thing as a missed deadline.

[john Intosa]

I'm a fan of pocket hole screws and using metal fasteners, like barrel nuts and draw bolts when building furniture for myself or friends and family. Sam Maloof built "high end" furniture and wasn't ashamed to use drywall screws to hold together his rockers. If you can build a piece of furniture quicker and stronger, with the end result being cosmetically indistinguishable from the purist version, neither I nor the majority of end users would really care. For those that are not woodworkers, they respond to visual appearance and function. For those that are woodworkers, they can appreciate the complexity and challenge of the design and construction.