Laser cutter for paper art questions

[Suzanne McNenly]

Hi there. I'm sorry to beat this dead horse, and to jump in on your forum when I am not a woodworker, but you all seem so knowledgeable. I am an artist and some of my work involves stacked paper designs...I cut out hundreds of pieces of paper with my pro blade cutter, and stack them. Anyway, I want to make the leap to laser cutting. I can't afford the big brands, but I'm wondering about Automated Technologies cutters. They seem to be so much less expensive than others, so I just worried a bit. I did look through your other forum topics and saw the discussions on AT, Chinese machines, etc. AT seems to not have offended anyone:) Here are my parameters:



I have no plans to cut anything but paper for now, so I don't need overkill on the machine.
My paper is 160 gsm...nothing fancy.
I would like to minimize burning...although I assume that's just a matter of getting to know the machine and settings.
I don't necessarily want to order a machine from China. I like things to be easy.
I'm in Canada, but don't care about ordering from the US.
I would like to keep my paper sheets similar in size to what I cut from now... 12" x 24".....just don't want to go down to 12x12 or anything.


So...assuming AT is acceptable, here are my questions:



Would one of the machines in the $3000 range be ok, without major upkeep?
I will be cutting from Adobe Illustrator. Do I need additional expensive software?
Are there additional things that need to be purchased that I might not know about? I don't want this to turn into a $5,000 purchase. I can get optional stuff later.
Is there another machine that anyone feels would be good for me? I'd be thrilled with anything less expensive, but reliable for my needs.


I would really appreciate any help at all. I knew the machines were expensive, but when I saw prices of $40,000 plus I realized I knew nothing:)

Thx.

Sue

[Bert Kemp]

Well looking at the AT machines the closest they have to 12x24 is 22 x14 and your at 2400 dollars it 35 watts. getting up to 24 x 12 is gonna put you in the 4500 range. If you can live with 22 x 14 then that would be a fairly good machine for you 35 watts will be ok for paper and you shouldn't have a lot of burnt edges once you tweak your settings. I think it supports AI so no need to buy more software, altho most of us use corel so theres a lot of support here for corel. Basically machine cost goes up as the bed size goes up and the same with power more power more cost. Your doing paper so you should be fine with 25 to 35 watts. It looks like it comes with air pump water pump and exhaust fan so you shouldn't need much else to get going.

[Suzanne McNenly]

Thank you. 22x14 is great. I'll look at that one further and try to find more reviews online.

[Bert Kemp]

Theres several companies that sell rebranded lasers. Being you don't know a lot ABout lasers you going to want to deal with a company that will give you good support, Rabbit Laser USA is really well respected great machine and top notch support, may be a little more then your budget but if you really want a good laser at a decent price and great support Rabbits top of the line in re-branded Chinese lasers I've also heard Boss Laser is pretty good. Stay away from Full Spectrum.
You get what you pay for and its doubly so with lasers.

E=Suzanne McNenly;2337743]Thank you. 22x14 is great. I'll look at that one further and try to find more reviews online.[/QUOTE]

[Mike Null]

Suzanne

Welcome to Sawmill Creek. I would suggest a call to AT. I haven't seen nor heard of any issues with their equipment.

[Suzanne McNenly]

Thx Mike and Bert. You've helped, as I just really wanted things narrowed down. Decent small laser with good support. I'll call both companies and go from there.

Have a a great day.

[Matt McCoy]

Hi there. I'm sorry to beat this dead horse, and to jump in on your forum when I am not a woodworker, but you all seem so knowledgeable. I am an artist and some of my work involves stacked paper designs...I cut out hundreds of pieces of paper with my pro blade cutter, and stack them. Anyway, I want to make the leap to laser cutting. I can't afford the big brands, but I'm wondering about Automated Technologies cutters. They seem to be so much less expensive than others, so I just worried a bit. I did look through your other forum topics and saw the discussions on AT, Chinese machines, etc. AT seems to not have offended anyone:) Here are my parameters:



I have no plans to cut anything but paper for now, so I don't need overkill on the machine.
My paper is 160 gsm...nothing fancy.
I would like to minimize burning...although I assume that's just a matter of getting to know the machine and settings.
I don't necessarily want to order a machine from China. I like things to be easy.
I'm in Canada, but don't care about ordering from the US.
I would like to keep my paper sheets similar in size to what I cut from now... 12" x 24".....just don't want to go down to 12x12 or anything.


So...assuming AT is acceptable, here are my questions:



Would one of the machines in the $3000 range be ok, without major upkeep?
I will be cutting from Adobe Illustrator. Do I need additional expensive software?
Are there additional things that need to be purchased that I might not know about? I don't want this to turn into a $5,000 purchase. I can get optional stuff later.
Is there another machine that anyone feels would be good for me? I'd be thrilled with anything less expensive, but reliable for my needs.


I would really appreciate any help at all. I knew the machines were expensive, but when I saw prices of $40,000 plus I realized I knew nothing:)

Thx.

Sue

Sue:

Have you considered a Silhouette Cameo?

http://www.amazon.com/Silhouette-Cameo-Electronic-Cutting-Tool/dp/B005Y1CPSU

[Suzanne McNenly]

Thx Matt, but the Silhouette Cameo was what I started with a few years ago. I have been using a much faster, professional machine for the past year, The Silver Bullet, but I'm at the end of the line when it comes to what I can do with a blade, as opposed to a laser. But, for anyone interested, the Sil is a great machine for those starting out with paper, and don't want to invest in an expensive machine. Thanks for taking the time to comment.

Sue

[Matt McCoy]

Sue: Do you make one-of-a-kind pieces or several of a particular design?

[Bill George]

I have a machine from Automated Technologies, decent. The laser tube did not last as long as I thought but new ones are cheap. You did not give your location but they are in Chicago.

[Suzanne McNenly]

Matt, every piece is handmade by me, even if they are the same design, so, a bit of both. You can see them on my website. Suemcnenly.com. Look under the Secret Garden tab.

[Suzanne McNenly]

I'm in Canada, Bill. I'm actually now considering a boss laser. I've heard good things for the price.

[Bert Kemp]

Wow your closing in on $5000 the cheapest Boss is 4 grand and then Don't forget to include shipping cost ask for actual shipping cost and not what they quote on the website, gets you right a round 5K thought you wanted to stay in the 3K range . Shipping to you from Chicago versus shipping from FL will be cheaper. Just another thing to consider. also you only have a 14 x 16 engraving area on the boss where the AT was bigger and under 3 K. if your really thinking of spending more then you originally planned you won't do any better then a Rabbit.


I'm in Canada, Bill. I'm actually now considering a boss laser. I've heard good things for the price.

[Jay Selway]

Hi there. I'm sorry to beat this dead horse, and to jump in on your forum when I am not a woodworker, but you all seem so knowledgeable. I am an artist and some of my work involves stacked paper designs...I cut out hundreds of pieces of paper with my pro blade cutter, and stack them. Anyway, I want to make the leap to laser cutting. I can't afford the big brands, but I'm wondering about Automated Technologies cutters. They seem to be so much less expensive than others, so I just worried a bit. I did look through your other forum topics and saw the discussions on AT, Chinese machines, etc. AT seems to not have offended anyone:) Here are my parameters:



I have no plans to cut anything but paper for now, so I don't need overkill on the machine.
My paper is 160 gsm...nothing fancy.
I would like to minimize burning...although I assume that's just a matter of getting to know the machine and settings.
I don't necessarily want to order a machine from China. I like things to be easy.
I'm in Canada, but don't care about ordering from the US.
I would like to keep my paper sheets similar in size to what I cut from now... 12" x 24".....just don't want to go down to 12x12 or anything.


So...assuming AT is acceptable, here are my questions:



Would one of the machines in the $3000 range be ok, without major upkeep?
I will be cutting from Adobe Illustrator. Do I need additional expensive software?
Are there additional things that need to be purchased that I might not know about? I don't want this to turn into a $5,000 purchase. I can get optional stuff later.
Is there another machine that anyone feels would be good for me? I'd be thrilled with anything less expensive, but reliable for my needs.


I would really appreciate any help at all. I knew the machines were expensive, but when I saw prices of $40,000 plus I realized I knew nothing:)

Thx.

Sue


Hey Sue,

I just spent the past week doing nothing but cutting paper with my laser. Definitely takes some dialing in, but works really well. Keep in mind, you won't be able to cut more than one sheet at a time. Stacking more than one sheet becomes a fire hazard with a laser.

There's some great information on paper and lasers here: http://candyspotting.com/faq. Be sure to check it out.

[Jay Selway]

Just looked up your artwork online. Cool stuff!

[Suzanne McNenly]

Thx jay. No issue re one at a time. Every single slice is a different size, and I do one at a time, so all good. Thx so much for the link. I'll check it out for sure.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Always somebody with a different view :) this time it's me :)

To be honest I'd say a Chinese machine in the $3,000 - $4,000 range will be the wrong tool for the job, the limiting factor won't be the power of the beam or size of the bed ,it's more likely to be the lower quality controller and stepper motors, paper in and of itself needs to be cut quickly to prevent the risk of fire or scorching, the cheaper Chinese machines don't hold corners or direction changes very well and you can experience "wobble" at higher speeds, sadly the strike current of the tubes means you have a lower limit to the power you can use so even at the lowest power you may not get enough speed to prevent problems.
Doing it for fun with a laser is one thing, trying to make it pay is something totally different.
The cheaper machines are indeed less reliable and require a fair bit more user intervention to keep things sweet compared to US imported items or other types of laser,(A DC Galvo would be best but it's out of that price range and that's before moving into RF based Galvo's).
Much of the staining on thin materials is a result of the air assist blowing detritus back onto the work surface, sadly without it, fire becomes and ever present risk so it's a kid of rock vs hard place problem. You can of course increase extraction power but then that can lead to your work going off on a jolly up the extraction tube :(

Overall and taking into account some of the potential and very real problems I'd have to say a cheap Chinese machine is likely to cause more headaches from a business standpoint that you may want to put up with.

cheers

Dave

[John Bion]

Always somebody with a different view :) this time it's me :)

To be honest I'd say a Chinese machine in the $3,000 - $4,000 range will be the wrong tool for the job, the limiting factor won't be the power of the beam or size of the bed ,it's more likely to be the lower quality controller and stepper motors, paper in and of itself needs to be cut quickly to prevent the risk of fire or scorching, the cheaper Chinese machines don't hold corners or direction changes very well and you can experience "wobble" at higher speeds, sadly the strike current of the tubes means you have a lower limit to the power you can use so even at the lowest power you may not get enough speed to prevent problems.
Doing it for fun with a laser is one thing, trying to make it pay is something totally different.
The cheaper machines are indeed less reliable and require a fair bit more user intervention to keep things sweet compared to US imported items or other types of laser,(A DC Galvo would be best but it's out of that price range and that's before moving into RF based Galvo's).
Much of the staining on thin materials is a result of the air assist blowing detritus back onto the work surface, sadly without it, fire becomes and ever present risk so it's a kid of rock vs hard place problem. You can of course increase extraction power but then that can lead to your work going off on a jolly up the extraction tube :(

Overall and taking into account some of the potential and very real problems I'd have to say a cheap Chinese machine is likely to cause more headaches from a business standpoint that you may want to put up with.

cheers

Dave

Hi Sue,
I have one comment to make, and that is that Dave Sheldrake loves Chinese lasers and if he does not recommend them for this purpose then they probably are not good for the application, he is worth listening to. It may be worth your while sending Jiten Patel a PM, he is also here in the UK and does an awful lot of paper.
Kind Regards, John

PS, I see Dave does have the qualifier of “cheaper Chinese machines....”, not necessarily any Chinese machine.

[Suzanne McNenly]

Thx John and Dave for the valuable info. Funny, I did so much research that I started to have questions about exactly what you brought up. Each sheet would have many 1mm holes cut, and I wondered if they would pose a problem floating around. Also, because the edge of the paper is what is visible in my work, any toasting would be an issue. Now, even though they are out of my price range, can you give me an idea as to the price range that I would be looking at for a better experience with paper? I googled the Galvo term, but I'm embarrassed to say that I don't even know if that's a manufacturer or a specification:). I couldn't find much. I won't hold you to anything, but if you could maybe give me the name of a macine or two, regardless of price, I would better understand, and by studying those specs I would know which direction to go in. And I will definitely pm the gentleman you mentioned in the uk.

Looking forward to to getting a specific macine recommendation.

[John Bion]

Hi Sue,
Recommending a machine is beyond my pay-grade:) I just make things out of wood, acrylic etc with my machines and although I have played with some card/paper/board on my lasers, I did nothing amazing .... so I will step aside and let others who inhabit higher planes give recommendations.
Kind Regards, John

[Suzanne McNenly]

Thx john. I'm hoping someone chimes in with an example of a machine that would be good. I just need a starting point.

[Bill George]

Sue my GWeike Storm 500 has doors that drop down or open on the front, and left side. You can put larger items in to laser part at a time. The rear panel also comes off, with some screws. I have cut larger flexible items by just weighing down the material I want to cut and letting the other just hang out. The price was about $2400 and shipping was less than $150 to go 400 miles or so.

[Suzanne McNenly]

Thx Bill. I understand that you're explaining how to keep the paper from moving around, but are you also telling me that your machine works well with intricate paper cuts?

[Dave Sheldrake]

Hi Sue,

The choices are somewhat limited but something along the lines of maybe a DC Galvo laser (NOT THIS ACTUAL MODEL) it's just an example

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Manufacturer-Of-Co2-Galvanometer-Bean-Laser_648429117.html

But that is going to put you in the $7,000 range right off before post and import costs, very little moves in these machines, just the mirrors really so corner wobble isn't so much of an issue, speed wise they are a LOT faster for cutting very thin materials like paper.

Outside of that then sadly it's going to be one of the smaller Western made machines like an Epilog or suchlike, something that can keep up good speed without losing corners or blowing muck all over the place, I'm not up to speed on prices but a second hand Epilog or similar western made could be a good bet?

The bigger and better made Chinese machines don't really make good paper cutters, the way they work and the need for air assist to prevent flaming is going to either cause problems with fire or problems with muck on the edges, you could go up to a $20,000 Chinese cabinet laser and still not be much better off due to the increased weights of the moving parts causing more noticeable problems for speed and cornering.

As John said, I'm a big supporter of Chinese made lasers but this is one of two cases where I can't in all honesty recommend one :( (the other is glass engraving, it looks terrible compared to sand blasting)

I have a horrible feeling a Cheap or even Expensive Chinese machine will see you back here in a months time with problems that in some cases won't be able to be rectified :(

Sorry it's not a more up-beat opinion but I'd rather steer somebody away from trouble than into it.

best wishes

Dave

[Suzanne McNenly]

Dave....excellent info. I understand 7,000 + is huge, but it's not $20,000, so that's encouraging:) One LAST question and I will not bug anymore. Are you suggesting that a Boss Laser would not be good....or are you simply unfamiliar with them? Even in the upper end? Actually....maybe they are the Chinese machines you're speaking of? I don't know if they are Chinese.

Thx again. You have all been awesome, and saved me a ton of frustration. I'm hoping this thread will help anyone else looking to cut paper.

[Matt McCoy]

Sue,

Your work is very cool.

To determine if a laser might be the right tool for the job, you might consider visiting a local makerspace; trade show; school; or business with your file and material. This would give you a starting point and possibly help determine a budget to achieve what you are looking for.

The point of my previous question was to determine if you were reproducing the same egg shapes for many pieces. Would adding another Silver Bullet or two speed up production?

[Tony Lenkic]

Sue,

You can find Chinese machine distributors in Canada. Are you in eastern or western region?

[Jiten Patel]

I don't really have much to add to this, but thought I would chime in as I guess I am the sawmill paper guy.

We cut paper and card all day long. I don't have much experience with the cheaper imports so cannot really say whether they will be up to the task. We use Trotec machines and they deliver, but that comes with a hefty price tag. Our two machines came in well of £50k ($80K) so they are completely out of the budget you have set but maybe a Rayjet may be a starting point if you go western.

Just tips on paper cutting, if you go for a carriage system, you want a machine that deliver consistent beam quality as well as a small spot size. You also need to factor in how good the actual carriage system (the x and y) id, as this will affect your cut (low quality carriage = terrible jagged cuts).

On the other hand, if speed it important, then a galvo if your best friend. Super quick, but you will lose some detail. Saying that, we have seen some newer machines able to acheive incredible detail and incredible speed. These come from China so may be a viable option. Here is a video of one that blew me away. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCXniHH6qko (I do not work for or am affiliated with them). I have seen the actual invitation in person and it did suffer from some serious charring which would be unacceptable to us, but I'm sure thats just a settings and substrate issue rather than the machine.

[Suzanne McNenly]

Thx. I appreciate all of the advice. Mike....another Bullet wouldn't help, as I'm not interested in increasing production, just increasing the level of detail I can put into my work....beyond that of a blade cutter. I think I will look around for a hands on demo in my area....Guelph...near Toronto. I just had a long discussion with the Boss guys. It is true about their great customer service, as they were really helpful. One thing I never mentioned is that if a machine is actually CAPABLE of doing what I want, I will get it done. I can figure out anything, and find a working solution. The machine just has to have the capability to do it.....even if it requires 100 hours of finessing.....but if it's not capable in the first place that is just a waste:) We shall see.

[Jerome Stanek]

I think Ray or Carole will cut a sample for you also John at Automation Technologies will

[Tony Lenkic]

A member of this forum ( Stan Kern) owns Chinese laser distributed by Logilase located in GTA ( Hwy #7 & Keele St.) 5 min. away from me.
Guelph is 45 minutes away so you can arrange a demo with them and see first hand capabilities of their systems.
Good luck, Sue.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Boss, AT, Hurricane, Full Spectrum, HX, Rabbit, Jinan Quan, G Weike, Redsail, WK Laser etc etc...all just variations on a theme really Sue, all of them are made by 3 or 4 basic Chinese manufacturers and rebraned for end vendors requirements.

There aren't a huge number of Chinese actual machine makers, even some that claim to be are still using parts and cabinets from the 4 big names over there.

To be honest, the worst people to ask are the people who want to sell you a laser (with the exception of Ray Scott at RabbitUSA) as most will give a great picture of what their machines will do but but the actual machines rarely actually meet the claims.

For example, you will see a lot of claims of being able to cut 25 - 30mm acrylic on DC Chinese machines....total tosh!! anything over 15mm takes half a lifetime to do and usually ends up with dreadful quality so while in theory true (a 40 watt laser will penetrate 25mm acrylic) the general standard of the work and time will make it a non starter even for most hobbies.

At 1:09 in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI6i-2aeITI you will see the problem with Chinese gantry machines apart from being slow, that little flek of paper if it's in the way of another cut position will catch fire.

Jit is the man for all things paper for sure though ;) as one of the foremost experts on paper I know of I'm pretty sure that if a $5,000 Chinese machine would do the job he would have a whole factory full of them by now ;)

best wishes

Dave

[Jiten Patel]

Thanks Dave, that means a lot.

With regards to the video you posted, that is not just a problem with Chinese machines. We get that too. All you need to do it raise the paper/card off the bed and they fall down. Saying that, we encounter that all the time, it doesn't really pose a fire risk (we have cut over 200000+ sheet) and have never had a fire (touches in wood frantically!). It simply interferes with the cut, but nothing a sharp precision blade can't take of.

With regards to the $5000 machine, you are right, if they were up to standard, we would have 5-6 of them. We had samples from a lot of vendors before we bought the s400, and the cuts varied so much. From almost acceptable to outrageously shocking. Some seriously looked like a monkey had cut them out using a blow torch.

Suzanne, to give you an idea of what we create, I have attached a few images.

300809 300810

[Peak Glass]

I'm in Canada, Bill. I'm actually now considering a boss laser. I've heard good things for the price.

Sue: Sent an message to you about laser machine. Please check it. Thanks.

[David Somers]

Suzanne,

Jerome mentioned Ray and Carole in the above post? He means Ray and Carole Scott at Rabbit Laser in Ohio. Bert also mentioned them. Terrific folks, and well supported machines, but keep in mind they are Chinese lasers and fall under the group that Dave Sheldrake mentioned. I am sure Ray and Carole would do a test cut for you and perhaps video tape it if you asked. But based on Dave's comments I would be very leery of a Chinese laser other than Galvo? No idea if Boss is made in China and rejiggered over here or not.

Dave

[John Bion]

Suzanne, to give you an idea of what we create, I have attached a few images.


....show her more Jit, these images are only your starters, give Suzanne a full course from your menu! You’ve had my eyes pop out at some of your work :D
All the best, John

[Jay Selway]

Check out Epilog. You might be able to get a used Helix 24 for under $10k. That thing has been great for paper (that's what I use).

One thing to keep in mind with cutting paper, is the paper will get stained with creosote. I've noticed darker papers, especially black release way more. Also, looking at your artwork, the color of the edge of paper seems to be pretty important in your designs. The paper will be burned on the edges, so you won't get that clean look (unless you sand it down after assembling it into the stack / form). You might actually be able to get some pretty unique forms that way actually. Cut. Stack. Sand. Form. I'd imagine you could even take a dremel or belt sander to it to make some pretty interesting stuff.

Shoot. Now I want to try that.

[Bert Kemp]

Sue Yes Boss are rebranded Chinese lasers not much difference then the AT or Rabbits for that matter. Dave seems to think none of these would be good for you application and I would trust his judgement. Sorry its not better news. Maybe you should start making your products from wood and acrylic then we will find you a decent machine.:eek:

[Bill George]

Check out Epilog. You might be able to get a used Helix 24 for under $10k. That thing has been great for paper (that's what I use).

One thing to keep in mind with cutting paper, is the paper will get stained with creosote. I've noticed darker papers, especially black release way more. Also, looking at your artwork, the color of the edge of paper seems to be pretty important in your designs. The paper will be burned on the edges, so you won't get that clean look (unless you sand it down after assembling it into the stack / form). You might actually be able to get some pretty unique forms that way actually. Cut. Stack. Sand. Form. I'd imagine you could even take a dremel or belt sander to it to make some pretty interesting stuff.

Shoot. Now I want to try that.

There are a lot of used Epilog lasers on eBay right now, but not knowing anything about lasers and the fact they are used would not be for a beginner.

[Casey kerner]

I'm willing to do a test for you with my Chinese machine if you have a file. I have been very happy with my decision. May not be as fast as a Ferrari but it's still a sports car if you get what I'm saying.

[Casey kerner]

Here are some simple but complex items cut from card stock.

300834

[Suzanne McNenly]

Thx Casey. I'll take your word for it. My files are not even complex at the moment, I just want a perfect edge. Do you have burning on the edges? I assumed that if I finessed the settings, I'd get untoasted edges?

Thx

[Casey kerner]

I have very little experience with paper, so I can't speak for charing to much but settings are key here. There are ways to minimise it, but eliminating is tough because the laser uses heat to burn it´s way through. Nature of the beast.I'll try some white paper tomorrow and post pictures. Fyi, I'm playing in the laser game with a 60 watt, 16x26" unit for under 2 grand. Watch for used items, they are out there.

[Suzanne McNenly]

Thx so much.

[Jiten Patel]

You can eliminate smoke damage and burnt edges altogether. It is just find tuning the settings. Saying that, I cannot speak for the Chinese machines. We would never send anything that had a burnt edge.

Some papers/card stocks are susceptible and hold smoke far more than others. We use over 200 different colours and types, and 90% are great, but there are those that do char, which we use very rarely if a client is insistent.

[Suzanne McNenly]

Thx Jit. I kindof suspected that. I have actually changed my tune. I spoke with Trotec yesterday, and I now have the goal in mind of buying a Rayjet. Yes....2.5x my original budget, but I work really well with goals. They have a showroom about 40 mins from me, so I'm going to bring some of my paper down and they'll test with me. Even though I'm guessing that Epilog Zing is the same thing, the fact that there is help so close by is really important to me.

So....as long as the Rayjet is capable, I will figure it out.....there is nothing I can't figure out....I am a dog with a bone when I have a creative vision:) The fact that they will help me in person before purchasing is great. Anyway, if I'm not happy with the results....no purchase....win/win. If I am happy....the long road to figuring out how to swing it.

To everyone here....I can't even explain how much your advice has helped me. I wrote a note on another part of this forum explaining that. Truly, you are a great forum. Without you, I'd be sitting at home crying over my $10 laser:)

Thx again
Sue

p.s. Happy Thanksgiving to my American friends.....never will understand why you don't join us and do in October, but.......nevermind:)

[Martin Boekers]

One thing you may want to try is to limit "Square Edge" cut and put a very slight curve at the points, that way the laser doesn't hesitate on the transition and just follows the "curve."

[Craig Matheny]

Sue my two cents I have a 40 watt epilog and when my daughter got engaged we made invites for her bridal party of a boostia (sp?) with lace all cut out and they came out amazing and have done other small items my biggest issue is I have to clean my grates before hand being I cut wood all the time to keep from staining the back of the paper. The problem is you are well out of the 5k price range and in the 15k+ area. Good Luck

[Suzanne McNenly]

Thx for the info. Yes, I've discovered for this type of thing I need to vastly up my budge. It is now between Rayjet and Zing....Rayjet costs a tiny bit more, but Trotect is not too far from my home, so the hands on evaluation and support is worth it. I'm now in the 'figuring out the financing' mode. It will take a while, and I think I may do a kickstarter.....but we shall see.

[Craig Matheny]

Suzanne either one of those laser will be a great choice good luck

[Steve Clarkson]

Sue......I went to your website and looked at your awesome stuff.....just my 2 cents, but I doubt VERY highly that a CO2 laser will work for you. I don't care how well you dial in the settings, the edges once stacked and viewed from the side will be burnt. As someone previously suggested, you might be able to sand it off after it is assembled.....but other than that.....it WILL looked burnt, not vibrant like when cut with a blade. A galvo might be different, but a CO2 will have burnt edges.

[Suzanne McNenly]

Thanks so much Steve. I'm happy you told me this info, and may potentially save me from an expensive mistake. I'm confused, though, because when I've seen white, laser cut greeting cards, I've never seen burnt edges, and I do look at the edges because I'm a crazy detail nut. Of course, that may come from really expensive machines, and master operators. I'll still go to the showroom for samples with my paper, but I'll now go with the realization that this dream may end.

Much appreciated.

[Jay Selway]

Thanks so much Steve. I'm happy you told me this info, and may potentially save me from an expensive mistake. I'm confused, though, because when I've seen white, laser cut greeting cards, I've never seen burnt edges, and I do look at the edges because I'm a crazy detail nut. Of course, that may come from really expensive machines, and master operators. I'll still go to the showroom for samples with my paper, but I'll now go with the realization that this dream may end.

Much appreciated.

White doesn't show as much, maybe a little yellow tint on the edge if you dial the laser in correctly. Even though, you could still hit it with a single pass of a piece of sand paper and be good to go.

Where do you live? Probably best to try it out on a CO2 laser and see what happens.

[Steve Clarkson]

Are you sure those greeting cards are laser cut? If they are mass produced greeting cards, they are more likely die cut. I would suggest contacting a few people that specialize in laser cutting cardstock (for the specific weight you use) and ordering say 100 2" circles AND squares (that shouldn't cost you more than a few dollars) and when you stack them see for yourself how they look. Again, maybe a galvo will cut with clean edges, but then you'll know that's what you need, rather than a CO2.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Hi Sue,

It's a case of time in most cases,

What you need is:

1: Very high beam quality
2: A locked or very low mode beam supply (resonator)
3: Something that will run at higher speeds
4: (Possibly) one of the nobel gasses to reduce charring
5: A decent pin table or bed to reduce/remove backscatter from damaging the back of the card
6: Efficient extraction to prevent yellowing of the back of the card from the liberated smoke.

1: Beam quality, on a basic CO2 glass tube laser most of the tubes generate low quality , multimode beams (the shape of the cutting point of the beam) in most cases this won't matter if you are just trying to rip through thick materials or engrave materials where the surface roughness of the engraving is of little importance. A good way to demonstrate this is by engraving a simple 50mm x 50mm square then checking the surface quality of the engraved area. Much of the surface distortion comes from the mode of the beam. Try not to think of the beam as an infinite point, it isn't, it's usually a focussed circle of varying power across it's area that cuts to a different depth.

2: Mode locked lasers are expensive VERY expensive, on the whole they are well outside of even mid sized industrial budgets with quality resonators (the bit that generates the beam) being in the several 10's of thousands of $$, usually limited to low power lab use and some of the less common wavelengths.

3: Charring is simple oxidation, the longer the beam is in contact with the work the more time it has to dissipate heat into the surrounding area (a laser in itself has no temperature, it *causes* temperature by way of molecular vibration), a very high power, well focussed beam will cut through the target material quickly before the surrounding area has time to get heated. All materials have a yield point, that's a point where the amount of radiation they absorb is above the point at which the material turns to a vapour or gas, if you can reach this point quickly you get a clean cut but limitations on gantry lasers and the cost of power sometimes means you can't have both speed and cutting power due to restrictions on the mechanical components of the machine. Ideally a Galvo laser with a quality lens system will have enough speed to do the job and should be available with sufficient power to provide the heat/time requirement.

4: When I'm cutting metals the gas used is usually a mixture of either Argon / Nitrogen or purer gasses of either type, all it does is provides an area around the cut that is saturated with a gas that contains no Oxygen, Oxygen is what causes charring (Oxidation) and any method that can remove as much Oxygen as possible will reduce that (it's one of the problems with land and air based military lasers that if used in space would be so much more efficient). I'm not suggesting people go adding Nobel gasses to their machines, it's quite an exact science and given the high pressures used can be dangerous.

5: Laser beams don't suddenly stop when they hit the material, most times when cutting the remaining beam will travel until it hits something, if that's your bed or table and depending on the angle of it, the beam can be reflected back causing damage to the underside. I used to manufacture pin tables that remove this problem entirely but a quick look round the web will likely find a suitable version of the same idea.

6: Smoke damage to the underside of jobs can be a pain, much of the damage in small household fires is caused by the yellowing effect of the smokes and particles in it. You need to remove this as fast as is practical to prevent the underside of the paper/card suffering the same fate.

Overall a Glass DC CO2 tube is the wrong tool for the job, sometimes what some people will find acceptable quality wise won't make the bar for others, that will come down to personal choice, if you think the end result will satisfy your customers you may get away with it, in most cases it will look like an Ebay monkey has been playing with a toy laser though so it's really not something I would consider. An RF excited laser (epilog / trotech / ULS) will have a far better beam quality and usually a smaller dot, this will help and in most cases will put you where you want to be. A Galvo is a good choice but when fitted with an RF source can be expensive (VERY expensive) and will have limited other uses.

My own opinion is that a Chinese machine with a DC tube just isn't going to make the grade (or even close to it) without running the risk of damaging your reputation from a business standpoint. There are other variables that no doubt somebody like Jit can tell you about such as the quality of the card / paper, it's chalk content etc etc, running even big cutting lasers I very quickly realised that cutting paper to any high standard simply wasn't going to happen unless I used on of my Galvo's or got another Western made machine.

The last paper cutting job I did though I have to admit was 3 years ago and hopefully will be my last ;)

best wishes

Dave

[Suzanne McNenly]

I think some of my replies have been lost in the pages of this long thread, so I'll just re-highlight the salient points now:

1. If I get any laser, it will be Zing or Rayjet.
2. I will be visiting the Trotec offices close to my home WITH my paper, and examining the test cuts they make for me very carefully, and making my decision based on that.

I appreciate all of these answers, as their detail has led me to the above two conclusions....and it's a great thread for anyone else considering working with a laser and paper. Thank you again. I'm all good now.

[Frank barry]

please let us know what you end doing as this is very interesting good luck with it Frank