Bandsaw: hammer n4400 vs PM1500 vs LT16 HD

[Adrian Mariano]

I'm trying to upgrade my bandsaw and looking at the Hammer N4400, the Powermatic PM1500 and the Laguna LT16HD.

Now I have this suspicion that people are going to say I should of course just get the Laguna, because they seem to have a serious following. But I believe the Powermatic will be available at 15% off, so it's $2465, the Hammer is $2200 and the Laguna is $3500. So I'm trying to figure out what the extra $1000 gets me. (Does Laguna ever have sales?)

The Laguna has more resaw depth. But I don't care. I can't imagine ever wanting more than 14" of resaw. (What do people do with all that resaw? Am I missing something? My planer isn't that wide and I have yet to work with any 16" wide boards at all, let alone try to resaw them.) The Laguna has a bigger motor at 4.5 HP compared to 3 HP the powermatic and 3.5 HP on the hammer. My gut feeling is that 4.5 HP is overkill. I have resawed 10" on my existing saw with 1 HP. It seems like 3 HP should be plenty. I'm also not setting up a dedicated resaw machine. I'm going to be using this machine for lots of ripping of 1" or 1/2" stock, as I don't have a table saw. So am I missing something here? The Laguna fence seems to requires tools to switch positions or remove it, which seems like a downside. (But maybe I want a driftmaster....)

The hammer seems to have a lot going for it---and it's less expensive---but I wonder about its ability to tension the blade. There is an article out there about somebody who upgraded the spring because he couldn't tension a 1" blade. I like to run carbide blades, which I understand benefit from a high tension. I also noted the lack of drift adjustment on the fence...and the lack of a guidepost alignment adjustment. The hammer rep couldn't tell me if the table can be rotated to line up the mitre slot for blade drift.

So I'm wondering if anybody who has used two of these saws could give me any insight into how they differ in the ways that are hard to glean from the specs. Is there something you love or hate about one of these saws?

[Jim Andrew]

You should also check out the MM 16. Minimax usually has year end closeouts. I bought mine 10 years ago on a closeout sale. Included several options.

[Joe A Faulkner]

You might also consider the Laguna 18LT 3000 Series priced closer to the Hammer you are considering.

[David Kumm]

If you want to tension a 1" carbide blade ( Lennox ) you need a stout saw. Not many 16-18" saws can do that. Be sure if that is a big deal. Weight isn't everything but it does mean a lot so compare that too. Dave

[Chris Parks]

If you want to tension a 1" carbide blade ( Lennox ) you need a stout saw. Not many 16-18" saws can do that. Be sure if that is a big deal. Weight isn't everything but it does mean a lot so compare that too. Dave

I read the exact opposite somewhere recently, if your saw does not cut straight use a 1" blade because the beam strength is greater and does not need to be tensioned as much. Your thoughts mirror mine but this person had many many years of industrial experience both using and installing.

[David Kumm]

I read the exact opposite somewhere recently, if your saw does not cut straight use a 1" blade because the beam strength is greater and does not need to be tensioned as much. Your thoughts mirror mine but this person had many many years of industrial experience both using and installing.

I used to run a 1" Trimaster on an ACM 18" at lower tension because that was all the saw could handle. Much of the time you got a pretty decent cut. Hard wood or knotty gnarly stuff could cause problems. Another issue was the lower tension forced the blade back against the bearing causing it to spin fast. Heated the blade and I believe shortened its life. Since going to a bigger saw and higher ( 25000+ ) tension, my problems have disappeared. May work differently for others. Dave

[Rick Fisher]

I think in that group, I would look at the MM-16 ..

[Jim Becker]

Tensioning a 1" blade is less of an issue as long as the saw is a beefy design, regardless of wheel size. But speaking of wheel size, 1" blades, especially the carbide tipped blades are best served by a saw with larger wheels. While you "can" run them on a 16" saw, for example, that's tough on the blade and not recommended by the blade manufacturers in my experience.

I'm a happy MM16 owner (older 2004 version with 12" resaw. I did buy a 1" TriMaster and ran it successfully...until a mistake was made and the blade got kinked. That hurt. Not physically...financially.

[Bill Adamsen]

At that price point, you have the choice a wide range of machines both new and used, and significantly larger. What is the reason for looking at machines in that size range? Is it logistics (small room, limited access) or is that really just the right machine for the task at hand? You ask what people do with "all that saw," and I can tell you that well setup, with great blades and good dust collection, it becomes the "go to" machine for most resizing operations where waste and safety are a concern. Twenty four inches plus or minus, with a machine designed for that, would be a good size to run the larger blades David and Jim mention at the higher tensions. If I weren't so averse to changing blades, I wouldn't think twice about getting rid of my smaller saw, and in truth I rarely use the larger saw for anywhere near the full re-saw capability.

[Frank Drew]

You can tension a bandsaw blade more on a larger wheel because the band doesn't have to make as tight a curve over a larger wheel.

I understand the point Chris noted about a greater beam strength on a wider blade but I'm with David in thinking that more tension equals more accurate (less drift) cutting.

[Rod Sheridan]

[QUOTE=Adrian Mariano;2337142]


The hammer seems to have a lot going for it--- I also noted the lack of drift adjustment on the fence...and the lack of a guidepost alignment adjustment. The hammer rep couldn't tell me if the table can be rotated to line up the mitre slot for blade drift.

QUOTE]

Hi Adrian, alignment is something that's done once on a bandsaw, and not repeated unless it goes out of alignment. (Extremely rare).

The mitre slot is aligned to the blade, the fence is aligned parallel to the mitre slot by adjusting the fence guide bar position and that's the end.

Once a blade is installed you adjust the tracking so the blade is cutting straight and that's it.

You don't adjust the fence or table, you make minute changes to the blade tracking, if required. I don't normally even have to do that.

Could you imagine the complaints in industry if you had to start readjusting the saw whenever you changed blades? Good saws with good blades cut and track properly.

Regards, Rod.

[David Kumm]

Good saws don't need much attention to drift. Steel saws have flat tires so they only change slightly if the teeth on some run off the wheel and others run on it. Not usually worth adjusting. Crowned tires ( my preference ) should be set in the same spot on the crown so there is no drift change needed. As to 16" wheels, Lennox changed their steel a few years ago to handle the smaller diameter for their carbide blades. If your saw is too light to tension the .035 band on the Trimaster, look at the Resaw King. Thinner band so easier to tension. That's what I'd run on a small saw not built for heavy tension, or a 1/2" Lennox. Dave

[Craig Hoehn]

Out of those, I've only seen the Hammer N4400 in person and was comparing it to the Felder FB-510. The Hammer looks well made but the Felder is a bit nicer and has more features (better dust collection, larger table, stiffer frame, better fence rail that can be adjusted for drift). You can order the Hammer or Felder with ceramic guides just like the Laguna, and I think the Felder ends up slightly cheaper than the Italian Laguna too. If I were in your boots I would get the FB-510 with ceramic guides but then again I'm still saving up for it.

[James Bilsky]

Hello

I have the Hammer 4400, very happy with the band saw and it's performance (220v - 4hp), i' have only used it with the 1/2 & 3/4 blade - no issues, can't comment on the 1". One thing to keep in mind is that the miter slot is metric, so existing 3/4" miter slot accessories won't fit without conversion (not hard to do).

Also if you live near Delaware you can pick up tax & shipping free at their East Coast showroom in Newcastle DE


Jim

[Adrian Mariano]

Maybe it's not so important to be able to run a 1" blade---I guess I need to figure that out. I have resawed with a 3/8" blade on my existing saw, after all.

To answer the question of why I'm not looking at 24" saws and what led me to this particular list, I do have a limited space. I have a hard ceiling limit of 78 7/8" of height. I have a more fuzzy width limit in that the saw is near a door and as it gets wider it will start to encroach on the pathway of walking into and out of the shop (and transporting finished projects in and out of the shop). It's a little bit unclear to me what the maximum acceptable width is, but somewhere around 30"-35" is probably the limit on width from the wall before it will get annoying. (The table sticks out into the passageway and the saw frame will go against the wall.) So the Felder FB510 is listed at 78 1/2" tall, which is cutting it pretty close, and that's probably without wheels. If I could find a saw that would fit---say a saw with big wheels that doesn't go overboard on resaw so it stays short---that would be attractive because of the increased cut width I could get. One thing that is NOT attractive are the super low tables that many of these saws seem to have. So the PM1500 has a table at 40" which seems better for my use than the 33" tables on the Italian saws.

I do not have a table saw. One frustration with my existing saw is ease of adjustment. On my existing saw you adjust the table tilt by loosing the table, then you have to tilt the table, hold your reference up against the blade to check if you have it right while you use your third hand to tighten the table screw. It's annoying. So I decided I want to be able to tilt the table with a gearing mechanism. The MM16 doesn't have that, and furthermore, when you tilt the table the blade moves so much that you need different inserts. This makes it seem like the MM16 is really built for resawing only. But I'll do more ordinary ripping and crosscutting and curve cutting than I will resawing.

The Laguna LT18-3000 was suggested above. I have 2 reasons to leave that off my list. One is that there are all these reviews where people have problems with that saw, so it seems that there are quality control issues. It's unclear if tech support can be relied upon. So I feel like there's something of a gamble there. The second, and more important issue is that a review I found shows that the spring is weak, probably not able to even tension a 3/4" carbide blade, and hard to replace with a larger spring. It seems that the saw was updated after this review was posted, but nobody at Laguna could say whether the spring was improved. It's also discouraging that the people selling the product can't answer questions like this.

Rod Sheridan, it sounds like you're saying that blade drift doesn't exist on a good saw? Is that the case? (The Hammer rep thought so...and their fence has no drift adjustment.) I mean, I'd love to be able to not worry about blade drift. But if it's a reality then the tool needs to work with it. I've heard that carbide blades aren't supposed to exhibit drift, but on my existing saw I had to make accommodations for it even with a carbide blade. If there is drift, and I want to get good performance out of the miter slot, then I think I need to be able to line up the table with the drift.

[mreza Salav]

I have not seen the Powermatic but the Hammer is definitely not in the same league as Laguna 16HD or Minimax 16". I highly suspect Powermatic is not either.
I have a 24" Italian saw and truely appreciate being able to use wide resaw (carbide) blades. If I were in your position I'd definitely try to save and get an Italian saw (Minimax at the top, then Laguna).

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod Sheridan, it sounds like you're saying that blade drift doesn't exist on a good saw? Is that the case? (The Hammer rep thought so...and their fence has no drift adjustment.) I mean, I'd love to be able to not worry about blade drift. But if it's a reality then the tool needs to work with it. I've heard that carbide blades aren't supposed to exhibit drift, but on my existing saw I had to make accommodations for it even with a carbide blade. If there is drift, and I want to get good performance out of the miter slot, then I think I need to be able to line up the table with the drift.

You can adjust the table if you want however that's not how you correct for drift.

If there is any drift after changing blades you very slightly adjust the tracking. It's not normally a required adjustment once the saw has been set up properly.

Regards, Rod.

[Erik Loza]

The issue with carbide blades (or at least ones over 1/2" in width) is not drift, it's blade wander. Wavy cut, for example. This is usually due to the fact that the bandsaw's frame can't put enough tension into the blade to get it to cut straight. Lenox, for example, calls for lose to 30,000psi of tension for a Tri-Master to cut straight. If a person wants to use bigger carbides, they should buy the machine with the strongest frame they can find. Just my 2-cents.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Adrian Mariano]

You can adjust the table if you want however that's not how you correct for drift.

If there is any drift after changing blades you very slightly adjust the tracking. It's not normally a required adjustment once the saw has been set up properly.

Regards, Rod.

Most sources I've seen suggest that you adjust for drift by changing the fence, not the tracking. There's even a fence named the "driftmaster" in reference to this particular adjustment.

[Rod Sheridan]

Most sources I've seen suggest that you adjust for drift by changing the fence, not the tracking. There's even a fence named the "driftmaster" in reference to this particular adjustment.

Doesn't mean it's the only way to tackle the issue.

I've never seen anyone in industry start adjusting a rip fence as many of them aren't adjustable in any rapid manner.

There's always someone selling a solution, I've given you a no cost one.

Regards, Rod.

[Erik Loza]

This is just my 2-cents, folks should do with it what they will. In doing this for ten years, the #1 thing I see with prospective owners is "analysis paralysis". They allow themselves to get hung up on things or issues that will never happen or never be a problem in the real world. Or at least not with industrial-level bandsaws.

Part of this may be due to the fact that the saws many of us currently own or have the most experience with are really not very well engineered to begin with and require quite a bit of work to get to "maybe" behave the way we want. I would rather eat broken glass than try to tune up my dad's 12" Craftsman BS. So, we allow ourselves to get hung up on features or issues before we even have used or touched a good bandsaw. The first piece of advice I give new MM16 owners, for example, is, "If you are spending more time fussing with the adjustments than you are cleaning off the packing oil, then you are doing something wrong". Because it's not that complicated.

As Rod mentioned, dirft is not an issue. I set the fence parellel with the mitre channel and that's it. Sure, you can buy aftermarket fences, guides, whatever and that's all fine if you want but I would caution folks about putting the cart in front of the horse. The reason good saws cost the big bucks is so that you don't have to be tinkering and fussing with them all the time. Again, just my 2-cents.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Jim Andrew]

When I bought my bandsaw 10 years ago, I read everything I could find on the forums, and found Jim Becker's posts about the Laguna HD 16 he sold and replaced with the MM16. Wanted to buy the best saw first and not have to go through the headache of getting the wrong saw, having to unload it, and buy the right saw. Glad I bought the MM16 in the first place.

[Jim Becker]

When I bought my bandsaw 10 years ago, I read everything I could find on the forums, and found Jim Becker's posts about the Laguna HD 16 he sold and replaced with the MM16. Wanted to buy the best saw first and not have to go through the headache of getting the wrong saw, having to unload it, and buy the right saw. Glad I bought the MM16 in the first place.

Just to clarify, that wasn't me...I never owned a Laguna. Only the MM16 and a 14" Jet that preceded it. But when I upgraded to the bigger machine, it was for reasons similar to what Erik speaks about...the desire to just cut with the thing without a lot of fuss!

[Chris Parks]

Understand what causes blade drift and the problem and how to fix it reveals itself. Most BS have cambered wheels and it it this that causes the blade to be presented at an angle to the fence. Imagine the blade sitting on the feed side of the camber, the blade teeth would be pulled towards the fence. on the other side of the wheel crown the opposite is the case. By careful tracking the blade will be parallel to the fence hence no drift. The old furphy of having to allow for drift is just that and sells a lot of after market fences. Don't ask about flat wheels, I have no idea but I suspect if the blade overhangs the edge too much then it can be pulled at an angle so the overhang needs to be managed.

[Mark Woodmark]

What Italian saw do you have? I own an Augazzini B20

[Jim German]

I was in the market for a similar size saw last year, and was strongly considering the Hammer. It looked like a very nice saw, very well made and thought out. I would stay away from the Laguna based on their poor reputation for customer support.

I ended up going with a 1942 Northfield 20" saw instead, which cost me (including motor and supplies to refurb it) about $1500. I enjoyed doing the refurbishment, so I won't hold that against it, but it was alot of work, and in the end I'm not overly pleased with the cut quality on it.

[Jim Becker]

I completely missed the idea of "splicing"...which, IMHO, is a no-no. It's not just the potential for issues with the splice, but it would also have to be in an appropriate enclosure for safety. Either terminate the pigtail in a twist-lock and make up a custom cord with twist-locks on both ends to mate with it, or replace the pigtail entirely with a new, custom length cord using appropriate materials.