Official defintion of roubo workbench...

[Chris Hachet]

Seems like everyone is calling something of about every style bench a Roubo. What makes a Roubo actually a Roubo?

Chris

[Brian Holcombe]

In art something made 'in the style' of an artist would be something that would hold to their form very accurately. Something 'inspired by' an artist is something were some deviations have been made, or something that only loosely represents it's inspiration.

My bench is 'inspired by' Klausz/Scandi since it deviates so greatly in some areas.

[Doug Ladendorf]

A "Roubo style" workbench would resemble the bench from Plate 11 of Roubo's L'Art du Menuisier. It's a heavy bench with a thick top and legs. From there folks will add leg vises etc to their need.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-CPCdJ5jxMsA/USwk-HawFBI/AAAAAAAADZs/cD0nH_lreuQ/s1600/Plate+11_bench.jpg

[Kees Heiden]

One of the defining elements of the Roubo type bench is the legs are flush with the front of the top. And there are no stretchers directly under the top. In other words, the legs are somehow mortised into the top.

[Chris Hachet]

One of the defining elements of the Roubo type bench is the legs are flush with the front of the top. And there are no stretchers directly under the top. In other words, the legs are somehow mortised into the top.


This is how I defined it in my mind. Thanks for clearing this up!

[John Crawford]

I have looked at that drawing many times, but I guess I have never had it nicely enlarged like this to contemplate on screen....

Not trying to hijack, but just for the sake of discussion:

* What is the locked box underneath the right side of the bench?

* I have seen the argument that holdfasts were once much larger and beefier than we use now, with this drawing cited as evidence. I'm not disputing that they once were beefier than now. But, are the tools in this drawing really to scale (it doesn't look that way to me).

[Warren Mickley]

Roubo gives measurements for the holdfast in the text: 18 to 20 inches long, 12 to 14 lignes thick. There are 12 lignes in an inch. Roubo's drawings are generally made to scale, in contrast to many other historic texts.

For the bench Roubo gives these dimensions

Top: 5 or 6 inches thick, 22 inches wide, 6 to 12 feet long, with 9 feet being most common. The top is one piece, heart side up, made of elm or beech, most commonly beech.

Legs 4x6 hardwood, I think he says oak.

Height 30 inches or to suit.

There is a locked drawer under the bench for personal tools owned by the worker, each worker having his own bench. I think he says that planes and chisels are issued to each worker and stay with the bench, some tools are shared (like the ones on the wall).
.

[Noah Wagener]

the smooth plane looks to be longer in front of the blade like a Japanese plane. What is the second biggest plane, a longer smoother? It looks like a Krenov. What is the thing with a v notch in the front left leg? Why is the mallet oval? How did you saw tenons and dovetails on this bench?

[Thomas Schneider]

What is directly under the top on the front and rear left legs? "d" in the picture.

[ken hatch]

The bottom of the planing stop.

[Noah Wagener]

but the planing stop is labeled c.

[Derek Cohen]

Seems like everyone is calling something of about every style bench a Roubo. What makes a Roubo actually a Roubo?

Hi Chris

I would go along with others who described a modern Roubo bench as "in the style of ..". The elements that that taken from the original are, principally, a thick top which is connected directly to the base without stretchers, that is, via mortice and tenon joinery. This may be a blind mortice or, as in the picture, a through dovetail. The high mass of the top is sufficient to prevent movement, as are the thick sections that make up the base. In short, we have come to define a Roubo as a over-built bench. Secondary features include the coplanar legs and sides.

I am not sure where vises fit in. Moxon, Roubo (both mid-late 1700s) and Felebien (mid-late 1600s) all document similar benches, with Moxon and Roubo the use of a double screw face vise. I do not know what Felebien used. Perhaps Warren can offer something here.



A "Roubo style" workbench would resemble the bench from Plate 11 of Roubo's L'Art du Menuisier. It's a heavy bench with a thick top and legs. From there folks will add leg vises etc to their need.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-CPCdJ5jxMsA/USwk-HawFBI/AAAAAAAADZs/cD0nH_lreuQ/s1600/Plate+11_bench.jpg

Hi Doug

Thanks for the great picture.

My eye immediately is grabbed by the planes and their handles/knobs, with a view to the ergonomics involved. The rear-leaning knobs suggest that a thumb was hooked underneath, which would suggest that they aided forward drive. The rear handles are not much help in that area, since they encourage downforce behind the bed. Seeing this only on the long planes, perhaps they were used for lifting the plane at the end of a stroke? Any thoughts all?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Winton Applegate]

It's simple numbers. It can be expressed as : Roubo = < Klausz
Or
Roubo = rough carpentry bench
Klausz = fine cabinet making bench

[ken hatch]

Winton's trolling again :-).

I'll join...If I remember correctly, and correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the French and the English in some way or another managed to make furniture that was OK.

BTW, I will admit Winton's bench is prettier than mine.

ken

[george wilson]

The front "knobs" were sculpted into snail shell shapes on the planes shown in the Roubo picture above. I made a boxwood plane that has that type knob on the front. Here it is if you want to copy it. The knob is octagonal everywhere. It twists toward the right because I am left handed. This is to give a more secure purchase to the right hand. This plane has a continental style rear grip. Note how the lines of the front grip are echoed on the rear one,even though it is of different form. This plane was made a long time ago(1970),and for some reason,I used a Roman style bar to hold the wedge. I was very new at the museum,and just getting used to working in 18th. C. styles. It has a lignum vitae sole. I mixed styles (and periods) here quite a bit.

Note that on Roubo's short planes,there are no knobs. I took some license here. I just wanted to make that snail shell knob for fun.

I gave the plane to the chief architect when he retired,so do not have it any more.

[Stewie Simpson]

Beautiful work George. Can you recall what process you used to adhere the sole of the plane. Was it traditional hide glue.

Stewie;

[Doug Trembath]

I seem to recall you posted this picture in the past, George, if not my apologies and I may have it confused with another, but I thank you for posting it now anyway. Early effort or not, it is just so elegant, and seems so comfortable and functional. I remember having these thoughts then, but did nothing more than admire. Due to your generous offer for us to copy, I think I might, modifying it enough to make it mine. The lines and curves call to me. I think it's on a par or better than some of the work from the better makers posting here regularly.

I need to have at least one beautiful hand-crafted hand plane to go along with all of the flat sided Bedrocks. I hope this isn't considered a hijack, folks, I guess it is more of an evolution of thread.

One thought about the original topic, benches, and Roubo. It occurs to me that benches must have been in a somewhat constant state of evolution back then, and prior to this design, just as they have been since. My sense is that this type of bench was the "state of the Art" at the time Roubo was publishing, but it may not have been the most fashionable, or even preferred, by the craftsmen at the time. It may have just been the one in use he chose to draw for presentation in his book. Since it's revival, it seems many folks have considered it the only "correct" design choice available. Probably makes a number of us chuckle, I think, but it's harmless. I agree it looks and probably works very well. I've certainly read a lot of glowing reviews and opinions from the Neanderthals here and other places. Having no need to build another, (I have one in the house and one in the shop), I haven't built one like it, but if I needed a new bench, I'd seriously consider this design.

Thanks again, George, for your generosity...

Doug Trembath

[george wilson]

I just glued it on with a regular modern glue,I think. Roughed the surfaces up first. Not the very best way to put on a lignum sole,but in the several years I kept it,nothing came loose. I was only 29 when this was made,so I had some learning to do!

[ian maybury]

An aside, and in response to the main topic of the thread. Must say i personally struggle with one perspective sometimes implicit in this territory - the view that kudos or respectability (much less 'official' recognition) should automatically be assigned to any bench or tool simply because it's of a particular historical make or type - whether that's 'Roubo' or anything else.

Yes, the Roubo bench design can to this day can be drawn upon to great advantage. It becomes something entirely different though if e.g. the 'having for the sake of having' or the 'collector' mentality kicks in - these tend quickly to be followed by e.g. the concours mentality and the hauteur seen in the more exclusive end of the veteran and vintage car and motorcycle game for example.

It surely ought to be much more about how at that point in time the technical and broader realities of the tool or method fit with the (again specific woodworking but also broader) needs of individual users.

It very likely wasn't the original intention of the individual(s) who evolved the particular design(s), nor even that of those revisiting and re-popularising them - but to my mind the elevation of a historic design to popular awareness these days tends more often than is entirely healthy to result in its very quickly being seized upon by those engaged in a subtle or not so subtle search for bragging rights - or the commercial advantage that may result from pandering to them or to similar needs.

This isn't to say that huge respect isn't due to the historic makers that originated designs that still deliver advantage, it's not to say that features from historic designs should not be resurrected/key knowledge re-discovered - and it's not remotely to say that it's inappropriate to develop an interest in trialling, incorporating and/or using historical working methods.

I guess that as ever it's about motivation. No given activity is of itself necessarily good or bad - it's just that motivations can be healthy and constructive, or not so much…..

[Warren Mickley]

the smooth plane looks to be longer in front of the blade like a Japanese plane. What is the second biggest plane, a longer smoother? It looks like a Krenov. What is the thing with a v notch in the front left leg? Why is the mallet oval? How did you saw tenons and dovetails on this bench?

I will try to answer some of the questions raised here.

The item to the right of the left leg is a sort of square use as a try square and a mitre square. You can view it in this plate: Also some smoothing planes. The second plate shows sawing a tenon. The third plate shows a fellow planing on the left, note his grip. The other fellow is rabbeting or moulding.
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I do not recall a dovetail illustration. The mallet is definitely oval shaped, Noah, and there are other examples of this shape, but I do not recall anyone discussing this or using one.

Here is a Felibien bench (1667) and a Diderot bench a century later. And last is some of Roubo's "rough carpentry". The author engraved this plate himself.
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[Winton Applegate]

French and the English in some way or another managed to make furniture that was OK.

Well yes of coarse they did. You are right.
All I am saying is they had to work harder to do the same thing. More setting up and fooling around with clamps etc. Probably pounding nails into the top of the bench when all else failed.

To be fair it all reminds me of Ian Kirby's hollow core or laminated bench (http://www.finewoodworking.com/workshop/article/the-torsion-box.aspx). It had no vise of any kind, he used clamp on fixtures for hand planing stuff etc.

I really like him but I am still scratching my head over that one.
OK to be fair he uses another work bench in addition to that one but that article seems to say this is all you need.


BTW, I will admit Winton's bench is prettier than mine.
Pretty and cute . . . yes well it is all I have had to trade on for some time now so I make the most of it as best I can. :p

PS: I admit to maybe, perhaps, just the tiniest bit of prejudice toward the Klausz cult.

[Larry Williams]

... some of Roubo's "rough carpentry". The author engraved this plate himself.
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Work most likely done on the cabinet makers' bench that Roubo also illustrates and describes:
305746

[Winton Applegate]

Roubo cabinet makers' bench

There we go. Thank you.
As long as we gots a tail vise I suppose I could deal with the screws in the way vises.
:)

The last week has been really great around here for Celebrity contributions.
Hello and Cheers Mr. Larry Williams !

About the sawing of the tenon and sitting on the bench like that.
Is that artist's license ?
I am not even seeing a tenon; more like maybe resawing it.
Hummm
Seems like it would be more fun to put it in the tail vise and stand up and not get into such a weak and limited sawing position as in the drawing. Not to mention the ding on the edge of the board from the hold fast.

To be clear I didn't mean they made rough carpentry with these benches but from my perspective . . . the way the end of the board gets a ding in it from the crotch stop (pinched in mark) or the toothed stop and all the marks from the hold fasts . . .
well
If one were framing a house or a barn or making a wagon those things would not matter in the least
but
while making the fine and outstandingly superior chair in the etching one would have to go to heroic measures to protect the surfaces while using the Roubo with the crotch stop and hold fasts.
You see what I mean surely.

[Chris Hachet]

I am building a Roubo a the moment but do find the European benches to be much prettier.

[Winton Applegate]

One of each I say.

[Warren Mickley]

Work most likely done on the cabinet makers' bench that Roubo also illustrates and describes:
305746

I think what you are doing here, Larry, is imposing your own limitations on the 18th century workers. You can't just work backwards from your own skills and procedures. A quick count of workbenches in Roubo's work showed 21 benches illustrated. Of those only one had a tail vise. That one was clearly labelled "German workbench" (Etablie a l'Allemande). That one is shown in the Ebeniste section; the other five benches in that section are the more typical benches without tail vises. All the sections of Roubo show a very high degree of sophistication in the work.

A quick look at Diderot shows benches without tail vises as well. For joiners, for furniture makers, for veneer and marquetry workers.
305750305751.

[Noah Wagener]

Thanks Warren.

Should i be noting his front or rear grip or both? What i notice is that he is low to the bench and behind the plane. I have read is that you want a low planing bench to exert down force. This is painful to my front hand with hyperextension of the wrist. Bonhomme looks like he is not concerned with pushing down on the plane and his front hand is relaxed.

Winton, i don't think he is resawing unless he is going to turn the blade 90 degrees once he gets the kerf started.

in the last of those Diderot benches the top overhangs. What are the leg holes used for?

[Jim Matthews]

I was under the conception that the joinery of the legs to a slab top were unique to
Roubo's design, and largely why I never considered building one.

[Warren Mickley]

Noah, someone else had asked about the front grip on the Roubo planes. In any case it should be rather relaxed and not really a lot of pressure. Making yourself comfortable here is more important than having some classic grip.

The apparent overhang on the Diderot bench is either very little or maybe an outright error. Roubo was a woodworker and his drawings are more carefully done than other texts. Usually when planing the edge of a board an auxiliary board is fastened to each leg with holdfasts to form a platform for the board being planed.

Jim, most illustrations of 17th and18th century benches show legs mortised into the top. The 18th century Dominy shop on Long Island had benches of this type.

Here are furniture makers in Diderot. I think the bottom stretchers on the benches should be flush, but not pictured that way. No tail vises.
305935

[Don McConnell]

I find it kind of interesting that the German, or cabinet-maker's, bench shown by Roubo seems to be viewed (though not explicitly stated) as "not a Roubo bench." If you look at it objectively, it has the features discussed in this thread (in answer to the original question), and is shown by Roubo, himself. So, in what sense is it not a Roubo bench?

In the text, Roubo explains that it is called a German bench because it was probably invented in Germany, or, rather, likely by German cabinet-makers. Many of whom were working in Paris at the time, as Roubo points out. Which, I suppose, is why Roubo was familiar with it, and he indicates that this bench was more convenient for cabinet-makers because of the nature of their work. Though, he undoubtedly was more familiar with the joiners' benches, explaining why they show up much more often in the plates. I guess the (German) cabinet-makers working in Paris were "imposing their own limitations" on themselves?

I've certainly done a fair amount of work on benches more or less well suited to the work at hand. For example, I worked building furniture, entirely by hand, for several years on a joiners' type bench. So I know it can be done, though, at times, it was much less than convenient. So, if I went back to furniture-making today, I would prefer to work with a bench with both an appropriate face vise and end vise, based on my overall experience. Obviously, people are free to make their own decisions on issues like this, but I find it difficult to understand why they would preemptively rule out a feature which has the potential of making their work much more straightforward. Unless, of course, their primary purpose is to try and simulate working conditions of some bygone time and place.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR

[ian maybury]

'I find it difficult to understand why they would preemptively rule out a feature which has the potential of making their work much more straightforward. Unless, of course, their primary purpose is to try and simulate working conditions of some bygone time and place.'...

That's the point. It gets very confused very quickly once we move away from sorting out the right tool for the job and the person...

[Chris Hachet]

I was under the conception that the joinery of the legs to a slab top were unique to
Roubo's design, and largely why I never considered building one.


I think this does not seem like something I would want to do....being able to replace the top or the base just seems too logical to me if anything ever happened to the bench.

[Warren Mickley]

In the text, Roubo explains that it is called a German bench because it was probably invented in Germany, or, rather, likely by German cabinet-makers. Many of whom were working in Paris at the time, as Roubo points out. Which, I suppose, is why Roubo was familiar with it, and he indicates that this bench was more convenient for cabinet-makers because of the nature of their work.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR

Don, you are translating roubo's "ebenistes" as "cabinet-makers". However Roubo himself uses the word ebeniste only to describe someone who works with veneers, inlay, marquetry. He uses the term Menuisier en Meubles to describe someone who makes furniture,however sophisticated, that is not veneered and there is a whole section with this title. Verneer worker might be a more appropriate translation for ebeniste.

If you read the passage just prior to the introduction of the German bench, Roubo says that the ebenistes have the same tools as the other menuisiers (sont les memes que ceux des autres Menuisiers), and he specifically mentions the benches (les etablis) as as being the same. He then describes the additional tools which a veneer worker might have. The German bench is his first example of additional specialty tools that a veneer worker might use. Here is the passage:
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Here is a plate from Diderot showing ebenistes at work.
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If you feel more comfortable using a tail vise, that is fine. But if one suggests, as some have, that the bench Roubo illustrates many times is only for "rough carpentry" or that a chair made by a menuisier en meubles was "work most likely done" on a German bench, I think he is ignoring what Roubo and other historical sources have to say.

[Steve Voigt]

For example, I worked building furniture, entirely by hand, for several years on a joiners' type bench.

I didn't know you once worked entirely by hand, Don. Cool.