Veneer glue

[Adam Augustine]

I was wondering what kind of glue people use for veneering. Recently I have tried Titebond Cold Press Glue for veneer. I have have decent results with this product. Any thoughts?

[Chris Padilla]

What kind of veneer are you using? Commercial paper thin stuff or thicker shop-cut? I like to use the Better Bonds stuff from veneersupplies.com.

[Keith Hankins]

Go to http://www.joewoodworker.com/. Send Joe a note, explain your veneer substrait and use and he will take care of you. Tons of knowledge. Great prices on veneer.

[Larry Fox]

I like Unibond 800

[John TenEyck]

I mostly use Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue because I can buy it locally and because it works with my shop sawn veneer. I also use epoxy if I put veneer on one sided melamine. And I can tell you from personal experience, BetterBond is not suitable for use with shop sawn veneer at 1/16" or thicker.

John

[Chris Padilla]

I used Better Bond on my 1/16" black walnut shop-sawn veneer. I only just found out that Joe at joewoodworker (veneersupplies.com) said that I shouldn't have but that I got lucky with my choice of using black walnut because it is a pretty stable wood.

Where did you find it failing you, John, and what wood species did you use? My situation was black walnut on MDF. In fact, here is the build thread I did: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?92396-Tansu

I was at a class taught by David Marks a couple weeks ago learning about the double-bevel method of marquetry and inlay. He prefers Unibond 800 and the Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue for veneering because they dry to a very hard line although I can atest to BB drying to hard line. I once sliced my hand on it when rubbing it across a veneered panel that had bled through at a crotch point. He prefers the Unibond 800 over the Plastic Resin because it has no water added to it.

[paul cottingham]

Anyone here use hot hide glue? I am keen to try it for veneering.

[Adam Augustine]

I usually make small boxes with some kind of marquetry design in them. The veneer I use is unbacked. I get my veneer from Certianly Wood.

[Kevin Jenness]

Plastic resin glue (urea formaldehyde) is the most commonly used adhesive in industry for interior use. It gives a rigid glueline and is definitely preferred for woods that like to move like crotches and burls. Its drawback for a small shop is the relatively long set time and minimum temperature of 65-70 F, also slightly higher cost. Many small shops successfully use pva glues for raw veneer in an unheated press. Titebond 1 Extend gives the stiffest glueline of the Titebond products, and Vacuum Presssing Systems supplies a similar pva specifically formulated for a stiff glueline for veneer. Titebond Cold Press is filled with shell flour to reduce bleeedthrough on raw veneer. I have not found that feature necessary for the veneers I have worked with. Epoxy is another (expensive) alternative with a fairly stiff glueline, especially suitable for exterior work and thick veneers. It is almost guaranteed to bleed through thin veneers or ones with much grain runout, and the mating surfaces need to be sanded at 80# for good adhesion.

[Chris Padilla]

PVAs in general do not dry to a hard line although many people seem to use them with wood veneers. I think we should be careful about the word "veneer" and how it is defined. What is the max thickness for a "veneer" to still be a veneer? Is it 1/16" or 1/32" or does it depend on the wood species and its stability or lack of movement? Where is that "it's hardwood it moves" to "it's veneer it doesn't move" crossover point?

As an example, when I was building my Tansu project (see link above), I glued two 5/8" thick pieces (~16" x 48") of MDF together to prepare as a substrate for 1/16" shop-cut walnut veneers. At the time, it was necessary to only glue the veneer to one side of the MDF substrate. After pressing it, trimming it, and setting it aside (used the Better Bond glue), I noticed the next day that the walnut, facing up, had pulled the MDF substrate into an arc raising to about an 1/8" in the middle. I was pretty shocked but it made me realize the power of even a very thin piece of wood and the need to always balance the substrate.

I eventually edge-glued 1/2" walnut around the substrate and then veneered the bare side.

I have not seen any issues with this Tansu in the 4-5 years it's been in use in my home so maybe I got lucky using the BB glue.

[Mel Fulks]

Nothing new here,just distilling what has been said. The Weldwood UF type and the Unibond 800 are IMO the two best two MODERN glues for veneer. In a case where the work is relatively thin and will not be nailed or screwed to something that gives it added stability the Unibond is safer since it is water free.

[Kevin Jenness]

The success of gluing thin wood to a substrate depends on the characteristics of all three elements- the thin wood (veneer), the glue and the substrate. Door manufacturers commonly bond veneers of up to 1/4" successfully to fingerjointed solid wood stave cores, and it works because the core and veneer move together closely enough. When the substrate is a relatively stable core, like plywood or mdf, the veneer thickness must be less to avoid surface checking as the unrestrained surface tries to behave like the hygroscopic material it is but is restrained at the glueline from movement? How thick? Well, some say this and some say that, but I have had success with shopsawn veneers like cherry and mahogany in thicknesses up to 1/8". I feel more comfortable with 1/16" to 3/32" net as a compromise between stability and durability. With less stable woods like maple I would want to keep the thickness down and the glue stiffer. I have laid many hundreds of square feet of sliced raw veneer(.022"-.025") with pva glue without problems. I am not about to claim that it is superior to UF glues, only that it has performed adequately and was a reasonable choice given my equipment and conditions.

[John TenEyck]

Chris, I made a small table top using a 3/4" BB substrate to which I veneered both top and bottom with 1/16" rift sawn white oak. I used Better Bond glue and left it in the vacuum bag for 2 hours even thought the directions say 1 hour is sufficient. I completed the top and even finished both sides, which I don't always do. All was fine until about a month later when the seams started to open and curl; not a huge amount, but noticeable nevertheless and I ended up having to replace the table top to make it right. I tried to be nice in my first posting but, now that you asked -- I sent an email to Joe Woodworker about what might have happened and received a prompt reply that Better Bond was not recommended for 1/16" or thicker shop sawn veneer. I asked him why he didn't think it important to put that information on his website, as it has about any other information you might want, or on the bottle. Not surprisingly, I got no reply. So now I stick to Plastic Resin Glue for most applications - never had a failure. I've used Unibond 800 as well, and it works just as well, but Plastic Resin Glue is cheaper and available locally.

John

[Chris Padilla]

Yeah, it isn't on the veneersupplies.com website but it is on his joewoodworker site...that was where I found it. I guess the rift (wonder if quarter-sawn might've stayed put?) white oak still needed to move a bit. I've been fine so far (+5 years now) with my black walnut veneer on MDF. I have used the BB with some birdseye maple but it was commercial grade thickness at around 1/32" and it has been fine for a year or so now. It all depends! Fun times dealing with wood!! :)

[Jeffrey Martel]

I have been using the Titebond Cold press glue with acceptable results. Occasionally though, the glue will be forced together and create ripples in the veneer. It helps significantly if you clamp from the center of your piece outward in all directions.

That being said, I recently found a used glue pot for $35 and will be converting to hide glue for veneer work. I haven't tried it out yet, but I have 3 veneered boxes that I am making for Christmas that will use the hide glue.

This is all for non-backed veneer. Normal 1/40"-1/32" stuff from Certainlywood.

[John TenEyck]

I wonder why Joe didn't tell me that. In any case, I'll never use the stuff again. What little benefit there is in cost and convenience is lost by keeping two glues in the shop and isn't worth the risk of another failure. QS wasn't an option for the table top; it had to be rift sawn to give the right look to the finished piece. With Plastic Resin Glue, or Unibond 800, there's no doubt in my mind that I will get a good bond today, tomorrow, and 10 years from now. I'm not willing to take the risk again with such a critical aspect of a project. The only good thing to come out of that experience was that my customer thought I was a pretty upstanding guy for replacing the top w/o question. Since then I've built two further projects for her, and two are in the planning stages.

John

[Chris Padilla]

There is a trick I learned from Paul Schurch when I took a class from him at David Marks' shop last March. He purposely glued up a veneer panel with a few spots missing glue.

He likes to flood his panels with water so that they show up any bubbles or adhesion problems. I have to say, it works really well to find them.

His trick to fix this is to use polyurethane glue or the original Gorilla Glue. All you do is flood the bubble (you don't even need to pierce the bubble...no slices...no forcing glue inside) with the poly glue and add some wax paper and caul and clamp. The glue will soak through and clamp the bubble down. It actually works and it doesn't interfere with your finish either.

I recently had to employ this trick on a large scale panel (1' x 3') but I had wrinkles EVERYWHERE! Ugh. I about cried until I remembered his trick. So I rolled on GG over the entire panel and with a plastic covered clamping caul, tossed the whole mess back into the vacuum press. What came out was horrifying to say the least. The glue had dried to a thick pasty looking mostly opaque topping. I wish I had taken a pic. Anyway, I went at it with a scraper and ROS and low and behold, the panel came out perfectly flat and ready to go. I had rescued my panel!! I then slopped a gel stain on it and it took it just like the other panels that didn't need this rescue. Way Cool!

[Jim Matthews]

I like Unibond 800
+1

A visit to Jamie Robertson confirms his affinity for the stuff.

He's a master of veneers, and it's what works on large or small scales.
They warned me that the stuff dries so hard that squeeze out can cut like a knife.

He also warned not to buy too much at time as it has a point of no return on shelf life.

300564

[Adam Augustine]

thanks for all the input.

[Chris Padilla]

That Unibond is good but it is expensive and doesn't have a very long shelf life (keep it in the refrigerator I'm told to extend its life). It also has formaldehyde in it so it may not be the best to breath in...little bit nasty for you. David Marks tosses a respirator on when he mixes the stuff but he swears by it as well.

[Peter Quinn]

Chris mentioned polyurethane for repairs, I've found it works well for veneer work in general under the right conditions. For thick veneers to which you can apply even clamping pressure its very effective. Apparently it is considered a rigid glue line, but it also has the most elasticity of the major glue types. It can be subjected to great stress and retain its holding power, or it tends to give a little, though not easily, without breaking. I've used it for door skins on stave core, for engineered flooring, for lumber core composite shelves. Maybe not the go to for decorative inlay work with small parts, or large sheet work as its challenging to spread over a grew area within its open time. But it is an option, and completely water resistant to boot for projects where that is important.

I've used a lot of tite bond III for veneer work, its more tenacious than it gets credit for in this regard, and just about the easiest thing to use too. Decent open time, easy clean up, highly spreadable, semi rigid glue line, wide temperature range. Lots to like.

[roger wiegand]

Anyone here use hot hide glue? I am keen to try it for veneering.

I really like it for anything small. It's fast and there's no need to mess with clamping systems. A lot of the veneer stuff I've done has been repair of antiques, and for that hot hide glue is perfect. For bigger stuff I've used heat activated yellow glue (eg original titebond)-- apply a coat to both surfaces, let it mostly dry, then bond the veneer to the substrate using a fairly hot iron. Like hammer veneering, but without the mad dash to get it done before the glue sets up. It's relatively easy and again doesn't require an elaborate clamping set up or vacuum bag.

[Frank Drew]

I never had any issues vacuum veneering with white or yellow glues, or plastic resin glue for longer open time projects such as bent laminations. I used commercial veneers, but this was when they came in at least 1/28" thickness, or even 1/16" construction veneers for laminations.

[Larry Fox]

+1

They warned me that the stuff dries so hard that squeeze out can cut like a knife.

He also warned not to buy too much at time as it has a point of no return on shelf life.


+1 on both of these. When I am doing veneer work it takes me a few bloody "reminders" to remember to put my gloves on when cleaning up panels.

[David Pascoe]

I never had any issues vacuum veneering with white or yellow glues, or plastic resin glue for longer open time projects such as bent laminations. I used commercial veneers, but this was when they came in at least 1/28" thickness, or even 1/16" construction veneers for laminations.

Same here, I use Titebond with vacuum bag and mostly tropical hardwood shop-sawn where there is no risk of bleed-thru. The reason is that I can pull the laminates out of the press within an hour. Haven't had a failure yet in 7 years of veneering box sides.

[Alan Bienlein]

I was wondering what kind of glue people use for veneering. Recently I have tried Titebond Cold Press Glue for veneer. I have have decent results with this product. Any thoughts?

I use Titebond Cold Press veneer glue for all of my veneering since 2008. No creep and a panel can be taken out of the vacuum bag in as little as 45 minutes.

I also use it for any bent lamination's that I do and it has very very minimal to no spring back.

[Jeffrey Martel]

Chris, You mean that you just put glue over top of the veneer where it bubbles? Interesting. I may have to try that on some scrap. Thanks for the information.

[Willem Martins]

Old thread.

I have veneered shop sawn veneer with Titebond Original for several years and never had an issue. Even with pieces sitting in a window with afternoon sun for several years.

I am doing a King bed headboard now however and needed something with long open time, purchased Better Bond cold press veneer. Then found out Joe Woodworker posted on his website not to use this for shop sawn veneer and this is confirmed in this thread.

I have some PPR glue from Joe on the way, but thought to mention that he believes PVA glue for veneer is a Rookie mistake.

[Chris Padilla]

Chris, You mean that you just put glue over top of the veneer where it bubbles? Interesting. I may have to try that on some scrap. Thanks for the information.

Not sure if you're still around, Jeffrey, but I put polyurethane/Gorilla Glue over the top of the veneer to take care of bubbles. I'm not sure if any old glue would work...have only tried the poly.

As to whether or not to use PVA for veneers, I guess we all have our experiences and we all stick with what we've experienced.


Willem,

I did an experiment once where I simply put down blobs of glue on a piece of wax paper. None of the PVAs dried very hard whereas the plastic resin and BB did dry to basically a rock. That was enough evidence for me. YMMV. :)

[Mike Henderson]

I have had terrible results with Titebond Cold Press glue. Around here, we have to use water based finish. I found that with cold press glue, the panel will come out of press looking fine and may even look fine when water is first put on it. But when I then apply a water based finish, it appears that the water gets through the veneer and the cold press glue comes loose.

I've tried cold press glue on several panels. The first one, I thought I had done something wrong, maybe not putting enough glue down, or finishing too soon. So on the second, I made sure I did everything right, even putting glue on the back of the veneer. It definitely was not glue starved. I waited over 24 hours before doing anything on the panel, even taking off the veneer tape. And I still got bubbles. And yes, the substrate was properly prepared and the veneer was ordinary veneer. In fact, the panel was made up of several different kinds of veneer and the bubbles did not seem to favor any particular veneer.

I threw the rest of the Cold Press glue away. I'll never use that stuff again.

I have had good results with UF glues (several different brands, both liquid and powder), with white glue, yellow glue, and even epoxy when I didn't want to put any water into the veneer (because the veneer expanded too much when water hit it). I've done a lot of veneer work and am fairly familiar with most of the problems you can run into.

Later, after the problems I had, I was talking with a couple of other woodworkers, telling them of my problems, and they commented that they had the same problem. Each was happy to hear the other's problems because each thought they had done something wrong.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

Not sure if you're still around, Jeffrey, but I put polyurethane/Gorilla Glue over the top of the veneer to take care of bubbles. I'm not sure if any old glue would work...have only tried the poly.

As to whether or not to use PVA for veneers, I guess we all have our experiences and we all stick with what we've experienced.


Willem,

I did an experiment once where I simply put down blobs of glue on a piece of wax paper. None of the PVAs dried very hard whereas the plastic resin and BB did dry to basically a rock. That was enough evidence for me. YMMV. :)
This isn't veneer, but one time when I was visiting with Sam Maloof, I asked him what he used to glue up the bent laminations on his rockers. He pointed to some bottles of Titebond and said "The light stuff for the light woods and the dark stuff for the dark woods."

Mike

[Jim Tobias]

+1 on the Unibond 800


Jim

[Andrew Hughes]

Hi Mike, have you tried old brown glue in your marquetry,It's really easy to use in small batches,even thou it's reversible it wont be bothered by water base lacquers.
i was going to mention to the OP but he's probably 2000 miles away sipping coffee.So it doent matter any more.If I high Jack this thread.Aj

[Mike Henderson]

Hi Mike, have you tried old brown glue in your marquetry,It's really easy to use in small batches,even thou it's reversible it wont be bothered by water base lacquers.
i was going to mention to the OP but he's probably 2000 miles away sipping coffee.So it doent matter any more.If I high Jack this thread. Aj
I haven't tried it but will try to get some and see how it works. Thanks for the suggestion.

Mike