Reminder - This is a "hand tool" forum

[Pat Barry]

Notice to all - Please ensure that all threads and postings in this forum remain true to the purpose of this forum, ie: no power tool discussion whatsoever will be tolerated.

I have been reminded of this in the past and frequently still disregard this significant point, thereby causing great annoyance to the experienced Neanderthal's. For this I sincerely apologize and promise in the future to refrain from this as I best can do. Perhaps this can be the club pledge "to make no mention of power tools".

Moderators - please make this a sticky

Thank you

[Daniel Rode]

Making this sticky seems superfluous to me. The forum name seems to cover your point well enough:

Neanderthal Haven - hand tool forum

[Malcolm Schweizer]

So what you're saying is I can no longer discuss my sharpening technique using my Tormek or WorkSharp to sharpen my hand tools, or recommend someone use a drill press to widen the hole in a blade that won't fit, or ask where I can get the sole of a plane machined, etc., etc.? Come on guys- if that's what this section is moving towards, then I'm out. I don't have the patience to tiptoe around trying not to mention a power tool. Please let me know if this is the case so I can save my anual contribution for a more worthwile cause.

[Jim Koepke]

My belt sander has handles, therefore it is a hand tool! :eek:

Ducking under my desk.

jtk

[Daniel Rode]

I think Pat is miffed about replies to his comments on other threads and was trying to make a point.

I don't think anyone here wants draconian enforcement of a hand tools only policy. Certainly I do not.

[Tom M King]

It might be a good idea to have a separate "sharpening" forum. Power tool users may never venture to the hand tool forum, and it would simplify it for someone new to be able to read all in one place about sharpening. It is THE most important aspect about using hand tools, but even power tool users need a sharp chisel, or block plane iron once in a while.

[Kees Heiden]

I don't believe anyone would be able to ban sharpening from the handtool forum! It's too much ingrained in our blood.

[bob blakeborough]

Seriously??? This is an issue from some people for real? Lame...

[John Coloccia]

I'm lodging a formal protest with the secretary general.

[Brian Holcombe]

There is also a two drink minimum.

[Justin Green]

I wish I was 100% neander, and I'm making progress, but just not there yet. My mortise and tenons and planing skills are workable, dovetails are slowly coming along, but other than sawing dovetails or tenons, I'm just not [yet] set up with the right hand saws or a saw bench and can't yet ditch using a [tool whose name I shall not mention] for sizing larger pieces of lumber. Alas, I even confess to sometimes using electric lighting in my garage workshop.

[lowell holmes]

I used to worry about it, but I use the tool that makes the best quality cut. If I'm ripping wood, or shaping the curve in a back splat, it likely will be done on a power tool.

If I'm shaping a chair arm, or making a M&T joint that is visible, or dovetails, it will be with hand tools.

I enjoy being able to cut a straight line with a hand saw or carve a chair seat using shaves and card scrapers.

[Marko Milisavljevic]

I only use organic hand tools and have nothing but contempt for those using (and especially discussing) anything to do with p***r tools or e*********y in general.

[Steve Voigt]

I'm just not [yet] set up with the right hand saws or a saw bench and can't yet ditch using a [tool whose name I shall not mention] for sizing larger pieces of lumber. Alas, I even confess to sometimes using electric lighting in my garage workshop.

Repent now or burn for all eternity, sinner! ;)

[Jim Koepke]

There is also a two drink minimum.

My shop has a maximum on how many drinks before the door gets locked.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

LOL, that is a very good idea indeed. My maximum in the shop is zero, but for posting on the board....well...it can be quite a few from time to time.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I think Pat is miffed about replies to his comments on other threads and was trying to make a point.

I don't think anyone here wants draconian enforcement of a hand tools only policy. Certainly I do not.

Ah yes, I saw that post, but didn't pay attention to who said what. It all makes sense now.

Well, honestly, I have wanted for a while to make a post in the off-topic section asking if I'm the only one who sometimes feels "overmoderated," but I didn't want to come across as just trying to start something. It's hard to ask such a question without sounding like you have some big issue, but really I wonder sometimes if I'm the only one who gets tired of tiptoeing around this forum. I had a few posts deleted or edited for very silly reasons- never because anyone was offended, but because someone MIGHT be offended. For example, when I called the law firm of ADMIN EDIT ONCE AGAIN the lowest scum on the planet" for advertising on Facebook looking for people who had been injured by table saws, my entire thread was deleted because (copy/paste from PM):


I just want to come here and talk tools. I live in a remote area where it's hard to find people interested in woodworking. I don't come here to tiptoe around. I find it quite humorous that people get all worked up over some comment made on a woodworking forum.

Thats twice your illegal comments have been removed and you have been saved from a legal challenge.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Sharpening by whatever method is still considered a hand tools skill even if not always done sans electricity. While suggestions on using a power tool to complete part of a primarily hand tool project are not absolutely banned, we would like folks to use some discretion and keep it to a minimum. I tend to give folks as much leeway as possible but ask that you don't push it.

Your mostly friendly moderator.
Dave

[Kent A Bathurst]

There is also a two drink minimum.

Make that three........

I just spit one all over the monitor when I read this.

[David Weaver]

...if I'm the only one who sometimes feels "overmoderated,"....

I used to think that, but if you stick to the subject matter you can be pretty direct (and it's easy to tell if you're being direct because you really believe the subject matter is worth debating vs. just making a pattern of trolling people). Ambulance chasing is sort of out of the scope of the forum, I guess. Plus the fact that Keith probably doesn't want to be made a target for someone with deep pockets and bad intentions.

If you start talking like me, though, you'll get fairly regular PMs from people who don't like what you're saying or how you're saying it, but not the moderators (at least not most of the time). In the case that we're talking about, doing the job by hand is the better option (unless prashun is hiding a jointer with 10 foot tables), it's not about what forum anyone is in.

(At times, I get three or four minders a month, by the way, questioning something I've said, accusing me of not being able to do something I've suggested or whatever else).

[paul cottingham]

(At times, I get three or four minders a month, by the way, questioning something I've said, accusing me of not being able to do something I've suggested or whatever else).

Seriously?

[David Weaver]

Seriously?

Yep. I think I'm more direct than most people on here, though.

[Sean Hughto]

Oh, you know you love it, David!

As for moderation, I'm definitely in favor of more rough and tumble. While I know it makes some uncomfortable, I think it's usually more interesting and honest. We all don't have to agree about everything, and disagreement should not be taken as disrespect. The one thing I dislike is when folks safely behind their computer screens say crap they would never say to you in person, lest they get a punch in the nose. So that would be my one rule if I was moderator for a day: if you wouldn't say it to a 6' 10" 300 lb guy standing in front of you, maybe think twice about saying it on the board. Then again, sometimes its good to let the jerks be jerks, so their true colors can be seen and everyone knows who is who.

On hand tools - almost no one here is a purist, and so what it they were. What separates the Neander folk from the General folk is a sort of default preference for a good deal of hand tool work to be brought to every project, but hardly all. Folks should feel free to help others realize their dreams and visions in any and all ways. I didn't think Pat's suggestion was problematic because it involved electricity; I thought it was problematic because it mistakenly assumed that a power jointer would take less material or achieve the desired goal any easier or more surely. There are certainly fellows with power jointers who know how to use them flawlessly just as their are guys with planes who can do the same. My personal experience of power jointers is that they would take more material to get to the goal.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Yep. I think I'm more direct than most people on here, though.

All I can say is - keep up the good work, David.

[David Weaver]

Oh, you know you love it, David!


You're right, it doesn't bother me much. I'm here because the subject matter tickles my brain, and I don't know where else to get it (other than at the bench). I *hate* to walk away from a discussion and be full of myself about manners but leave details undiscussed.

(and I'll readily admit while I could do that joint very easily with any bailey pattern jointer plane, i'm not sure I could foist those boards on any power jointer without at least another person and get them done accurately).

I use some power tools, too, just maybe not as much as most people.

[dan sherman]

I have wanted for a while to make a post in the off-topic section asking if I'm the only one who sometimes feels "overmoderated," but I didn't want to come across as just trying to start something.

I think, I've only ever been moderated once. I vaguely remember it being because I wouldn't tip-toe around some members.

[paul cottingham]

Yep. I think I'm more direct than most people on here, though.
Yeah, well, dude, keep up the good work then.

[David Weaver]

Secretly (or not so much), I think that if I'm direct and other people are direct and plain about it, more people will take some chances. More chances will mean more interesting discussions and more interesting work.

I did think, too, that steve and I would get some people to build planes (steve was an innocent bystander, and not in on my sinister plan). I also thought I would get some people to build infill planes by hand several years ago but very few people do it without machine tools, I guess.

[Steve Voigt]

I did think, too, that steve and I would get some people to build planes (steve was an innocent bystander, and not in on my sinister plan).

Ha, I didn't realize it was a sinister plan! I'm all for it, though.
I'm sure some people did build planes. Lurkers always vastly outnumber posters here--they probably just didn't write about it.

[george wilson]

I have certainly done my share of hand tool work,being in an 18th. C. setting. But now I'm old and have COPD,so I don't mind using a machine to do the grunt work. But,guitars and especially violins tend to lend themselves to hand work.

[Steve Voigt]

As for moderation, I'm definitely in favor of more rough and tumble. While I know it makes some uncomfortable, I think it's usually more interesting and honest. We all don't have to agree about everything, and disagreement should not be taken as disrespect.

Me too. A diet of only smiley faces and attaboys makes Johnny a dull boy.



The one thing I dislike is when folks safely behind their computer screens say crap they would never say to you in person, lest they get a punch in the nose. So that would be my one rule if I was moderator for a day: if you wouldn't say it to a 6' 10" 300 lb guy standing in front of you, maybe think twice about saying it on the board.


That's a great rule. Remembering would probably keep me from making posts that I later regret. :p

[DOUG ANGEL]

Ya want to go to California, you can drive, take a train, bus, or fly.....but you can still get to where you want to be. My hand tool skills are almost non existent, sharpening skills below average and I do have some power tools that I use. I'd rather work by hand....hate the noise, but age and lack of some skills, does sometimes force me to expend some electrons....there I said it! So get out the tar and feathers. Two drink minimum after shop lights are off.

[glenn bradley]

Notice to all - Please ensure that all threads and postings in this forum remain true to the purpose of this forum, ie: no power tool discussion whatsoever will be tolerated.

I have been reminded of this in the past and frequently still disregard this significant point, thereby causing great annoyance to the experienced Neanderthal's. For this I sincerely apologize and promise in the future to refrain from this as I best can do. Perhaps this can be the club pledge "to make no mention of power tools".

Moderators - please make this a sticky

Thank you

Too late, you already said it twice :D.

P.s. . . . . . . wait for it . . . . . . POWER TOOLS!!! :D:D:D

[Jim Matthews]

Ducking under my desk. jtk

You're using it wrong.
It belongs on a race track.

[Jim Matthews]

"...if you wouldn't say it to a 6' 10" 300 lb guy standing in front of you..."

That really depends on how fast you can skate, dunnit?

http://www.foxsports.com/nhl/player/zdeno-chara/66662

[Jim Matthews]

Please let me know if this is the case so I can save my anual contribution for a more worthwile cause.

Do you still have my address?

[Jim Matthews]

Sharpening by whatever method is still considered a hand tools skill even if not always done sans electricity. While suggestions on using a power tool to complete part of a primarily hand tool project are not absolutely banned, we would like folks to use some discretion and keep it to a minimum. I tend to give folks as much leeway as possible but ask that you don't push it.

Your mostly friendly moderator.
Dave

You're the SCOTUS, right?
Sawmill Creek Operatior Told Unze So....

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I have certainly done my share of hand tool work,being in an 18th. C. setting. But now I'm old and have COPD,so I don't mind using a machine to do the grunt work. But,guitars and especially violins tend to lend themselves to hand work.

George Wilson uses power tools? I feel like a kid who just found out Santa doesn't exist. hahaha. It's okay, I am not getting any younger either, and although I don't have COPD, I do have CRS (Can't Remember S---). I take damnitol to keep me going.

[John Coloccia]

I think George should finally post a shop tour, including his machine shop!

[Prashun Patel]

Isnt "overmoderation" an oxymoron? ;)

[Chris Hachet]

Sharpening by whatever method is still considered a hand tools skill even if not always done sans electricity. While suggestions on using a power tool to complete part of a primarily hand tool project are not absolutely banned, we would like folks to use some discretion and keep it to a minimum. I tend to give folks as much leeway as possible but ask that you don't push it.

Your mostly friendly moderator.
Dave

Sounds reasonable. I use routers to put decorative edges on as I do not own molding planes, and a table saw to rip long lengths as i do not have the energy I once did. But I find this forum tremendously helpful. When I get home from work many days the last thing I want to hear is a screaming power tool.

[Mike Holbrook]

I think the moderators are due a big thank you! I don't know that the point is whether or not every post that gets moderator attention actually deserved it based on some imaginary line. It can't be easy in ones spare time to figure out what needs moderation and compose the exact "correct" response. Communication, all communication, is imperfect. I think we are very lucky to have knowledgable people with our best interests at heart attempting to keep "our little world" in tact and viable.

So, thanks moderators for helping keep our forum on track and safe, despite all of the tough decisions that work must entail. Also thanks to all the posters who care enough to post and think about what is best for our forum. I imagine the moderators like a little feed back from time to time on what the posters here like and don't like, else this thread would have been squelched by now.

[Keith Outten]

Notice to all - Please ensure that all threads and postings in this forum remain true to the purpose of this forum, ie: no power tool discussion whatsoever will be tolerated.

I have been reminded of this in the past and frequently still disregard this significant point, thereby causing great annoyance to the experienced Neanderthal's. For this I sincerely apologize and promise in the future to refrain from this as I best can do. Perhaps this can be the club pledge "to make no mention of power tools".

Moderators - please make this a sticky

Thank you

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I'm pretty sure that Pat was joking when he made the statement concerning "no power tools" in this Forum because statements that identify or clarify Forum policies are my responsibility and I expect everyone knows this. Anyone who has serious concerns about the rules, moderation policies or any policy that we enforce should send me a Private Message so we can discuss your concerns offline.

We have known for a long time that Dave Anderson has needed help Moderating this Forum so we recently added another Moderator to help out. Until Prashun is up to speed and more comfortable with his new position here I will be assisting Dave to help him keep the peace here, and at the same time assure we maintain a friendly atmosphere and more importantly assure that we comply with the legal requirements.
.

[Kent A Bathurst]

..........Until Prashun is up to speed and more comfortable with his new position ...... help him keep the peace here..............

Support Your Local Sheriff

http://themotionpictures.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/support05.jpg?w=700&h=382

[Justin Green]

Admittedly, I don't post much but lurk quite often, and this is probably the most courteous, helpful, well behaved bunch of folks I've ever observed in an online forum, for what it's worth. I normally don't post because once I've used the search function, there are half a dozen on-point threads with the answer I was seeking.

[Jim Koepke]

else this thread would have been squelched by now.

My feeling is the moderators do not 'squelch' a thread for foolishness, stupidity or idiotic postings.

Mostly threads get locked when an argument gets out of hand or if someone makes what might be an ill-advised statement aimed at a manufacturer or another member.

Goofy is okay, libel, slander and anger are not.

Just my 300497.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

... I normally don't post because once I've used the search function, there are half a dozen on-point threads with the answer I was seeking.

In the world of technology, a person who actually uses the search function has taken the second step toward sainthood. The first is using the 'help' menu before calling 'techsport' or tech support for the uninitiated.

jtk

[Tom Vanzant]

David Weaver said "I think I'm more direct than most...". Really?
In this world of PC to the extreme, it's a breath of fresh air to hear or read a clearly-worded statement. Keep it up!

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Ah yes, I saw that post, but didn't pay attention to who said what. It all makes sense now.

Well, honestly, I have wanted for a while to make a post in the off-topic section asking if I'm the only one who sometimes feels "overmoderated," but I didn't want to come across as just trying to start something. It's hard to ask such a question without sounding like you have some big issue, but really I wonder sometimes if I'm the only one who gets tired of tiptoeing around this forum. I had a few posts deleted or edited for very silly reasons- never because anyone was offended, but because someone MIGHT be offended. For example, when I called the law firm of ADMIN EDIT ONCE AGAIN the lowest scum on the planet" for advertising on Facebook looking for people who had been injured by table saws, my entire thread was deleted because (copy/paste from PM):


I just want to come here and talk tools. I live in a remote area where it's hard to find people interested in woodworking. I don't come here to tiptoe around. I find it quite humorous that people get all worked up over some comment made on a woodworking forum.

Thats twice your illegal comments have been removed and you have been saved from a legal challenge.

There ya go. Well, hey- good thing you caught that, Orr I might be labeled as a bad pearson.

[Keith Outten]

Malcolm,

You are in fact fortunate that your comments have been removed. They would surely land you in court based on my experience over the last eleven years. You cannot make defamatory statements without proof and you cannot make unreasonable and unfounded statements here.

[Prashun Patel]

Malcolm, can you give me some more examples of feeling over-moderated? It's not my intention to use heavy hands in my woodworking or this forum.

I will suggest also that many of the cries foul are from other members and not the moderators.

Last at times I suspect there's a negative correlation between some members' ability to give and receive criticism.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Prashun I greatly appreciate you asking. I would rather keep looking forward and let's not dwell in the past. I don't want to be "that guy."

I actually hosted a wood surfboard forum until it got irrevocably hacked, to my dismay. I know all too well the challenges of moderating and hosting a forum.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Malcolm, can you give me some more examples of feeling over-moderated? It's not my intention to use heavy hands in my woodworking or this forum.

I will suggest also that many of the cries foul are from other members and not the moderators.

Last at times I suspect there's a negative correlation between some members' ability to give and receive criticism.

I got dinged by Ken F once - maybe twice - in my formative years. I PM'd him to get a clearer understanding of where the guardrails are, so I could stay between them. Ken F is very helpful, and polite. Since then, on a couple occasions, I have gone to him for a pre-emptive ruling before I post. I am not, by nature, a provocative guy, but sometimes stupid stuff yanks my chain.

I have seen no evidence of unwarranted or heavy-handed actions by the Mod Squad. Quite the opposite - more than once, I have watched a thread unfold, wondering when the Lock was going to show up - but nope, they let it ride.

If you want to engage in no-holds-barred discussions, there is definitely a home for you. If you don't know which forum I am talking about, PM me, and I will set you free.

But, that is not the environment in which I choose to play. Every one of the Moderators deserves our respect and cooperation.

[Don Orr]

"Orr I might be labeled as a bad pearson."


Hey-how'd I get mixed up in this mess? ;)
:D:eek:
I play by the rules but I have nothing against electricity.

[Jacob Reverb]

What this world definitely needs is more things we're not allowed to talk about.

We get away with talking about WAY too many things! Think of the children!

[James Owen]

Sharpening by whatever method is still considered a hand tools skill even if not always done sans electricity. While suggestions on using a power tool to complete part of a primarily hand tool project are not absolutely banned, we would like folks to use some discretion and keep it to a minimum. I tend to give folks as much leeway as possible but ask that you don't push it.

Your mostly friendly moderator.
Dave

Dave,

You and all of the other moderators on Neanderthal Haven have the lightest touch and give the most leeway of any moderators on any other forum (woodworking or otherwise) that I've been on (and some of them are pretty rough and tumble).
I, for one – and I think this reflects the general consensus here – truly appreciate that we're free to say what we want to say concerning the subject at hand, as long as it doesn't devolve into libel, personal insults, profanity, etc. – things generally not tolerated anywhere in even marginally civil society.
So, my heartfelt thanks to all of the moderators (a thankless job, at best) for their light touch and also for stepping in when it is truly necessary.

[James Owen]

Notice to all - Please ensure that all threads and postings in this forum remain true to the purpose of this forum, ie: no power tool discussion whatsoever will be tolerated.

....

Thank you

And...if we want to get REALLY technical, there should also be no discussions/mentions of projects, finishing, finishing materials, fasteners, wood, foot/leg-powered tools (treadle/pole lathes and the like), SWMBO, families, vehicles, classes, schools, magazines/books/videos, manufacturers, conferences, editors, sandpaper, etc. Remember! This is a HAND tool forum!

[Harold Burrell]

Wait a minute...just how Neanderthal can we be here anyway? I mean...think about it...we are all using computers...on the internet! :eek:

I feel so dirty...

[Adam Cruea]

Secretly (or not so much), I think that if I'm direct and other people are direct and plain about it, more people will take some chances. More chances will mean more interesting discussions and more interesting work.

I did think, too, that steve and I would get some people to build planes (steve was an innocent bystander, and not in on my sinister plan). I also thought I would get some people to build infill planes by hand several years ago but very few people do it without machine tools, I guess.

Oh, after seeing how fairly easy it can be to make a plow plane and such things, the bug to make my own planes is trying to get itself embedded.

Thus far I've resisted, though. Thus far.