Adjusting Stanley Planes

[Mike Holbrook]

Derek does not seem to cover adjusting Stanley planes, so I am not sure where to find reliable details?

[Jim Koepke]

There are a few things we need to know before this can begin.

First which kind of plane are we adjusting. A bench plane, block plane or some other kind.

For a bench plane there are a few other considerations such as the type (date of manufacture) that can change things.

Then we get down to the different adjustments, mouth, lateral, chip breaker and depth of cut.

Here is something of mine from a few years ago:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?148076-Getting-Started-With-Hand-Planes

As is often the case, new information has been added to my understanding of hand plane usage, but it is still a good start.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Derek does not seem to cover adjusting Stanley planes, so I am not sure where to find reliable details?

Hi Mike

Stanley bench planes have been around for so long that you just have to Google for information and videos on them.

What aspect of adjustment are you thinking about? Adjustments on-the-fly, determining the camber, setting the chip breaker ...? Smoother vs Jack vs Jointer?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Holbrook]

I bought a few Stanley planes, most are around 1910-1930 manuf. I have #6, #5, #4 & #3 regular bench planes.

I am having an issue with frog adjustment. There is a brass wheel that I believe is for fine adjustment but there are two screws below the wheel which I am not sure I understand. There are the two screws that go through the frog into the plane body that I have been working with too. I am wondering if some of those screws need to be left a little loose so the frog can move, although the wheel seems to move the blade on top of the frog? I have read that a nice feature of the Stanley planes is the user can move the blade a little deeper or shallower while using them. I am just not sure exactly how to accomplish this. I can move the blade forward & down or back & up with the wheel, But I have a couple that need more adjustment. The left to right movement is easy with the lever, although there seems to be a great variety in how tight or loose the levers are. The cap iron seems fairly simple, just tighten the screw so the two move together I believe.

How does one know how tight to make the lever cap with the screw through it? Does it need to be so tight it is hard to lift the lever or is loose enough to flip it easily good enough?

[Derek Cohen]

I bought a few Stanley planes, most are around 1910-1930 manuf. I have #6, #5, #4 & #3 regular bench planes.

Hi Mike

A few responses, below.

I am having an issue with frog adjustment. There is a brass wheel that I believe is for fine adjustment but there are two screws below the wheel which I am not sure I understand.

If you have two screws alongside (and below) the wheel, then you have a Bed Rock plane, not the common Stanley bench plane. These two screws are to loosen the frog for movement. However I do not believe that is what you are describing. I suspect you mean there is an (larger) adjustment screw and a (small) attachment screw. The adjustment screw is used to move the frog back-and-forth, which serves to open or close the mouth size.

There are the two screws that go through the frog into the plane body that I have been working with too. I am wondering if some of those screws need to be left a little loose so the frog can move, although the wheel seems to move the blade on top of the frog?

These two screws are used to tighten the frog to the body of the plane. They must never be left loose! If they are loose, then the blade will vibrate/move and this will cause chatter when planing. The only time they are loosened is when adjusting the frog. To do this the blade must be removed. The advantage of the Bed Rock style of plane is that the frog can be adjusted with the blade left in place (those screws I mentioned in my first sentence).

I have read that a nice feature of the Stanley planes is the user can move the blade a little deeper or shallower while using them. I am just not sure exactly how to accomplish this.

All one does is turn the wheel as the plane is pushed forward. Now this will be difficult to do if the lever cap is screwed down too tightly. The ideal tightness is a compromise between secure downforce on the blade/chipbreaker (to prevent the blade moving sideways), and ease of the wheel being turned.

Whenever you adjust the depth of projection using the wheel, always ensure that the final turn is in the direction of forward projection - otherwise the blade may inadvertently retract itself.

I can move the blade forward & down or back & up with the wheel, But I have a couple that need more adjustment. The left to right movement is easy with the lever, although there seems to be a great variety in how tight or loose the levers are.

As you noted, the lever moves the blade side-to-side. The wheel moves the blade in-and-out. However the latter is also affected by where you place the chipbreaker on the blade as this moves the adjustment slot up or down. A worn blade will be shorter than a new blade, and this affects where you can place the chipbreaker. As a "rule of thumb", if the blade wants to project too far, then the chipbreaker is too far back from the edge of the blade. Move it closer to the edge. If this does not do it, then the chipbreaker may not be original (so the slot is out-of-ideal-position). Swap out the chipbreaker and see if this makes a difference.

The cap iron seems fairly simple, just tighten the screw so the two move together I believe.

Yes, but as I mentioned above, do not tighten too much as it will affect the adjustments via the wheel and lever.

How does one know how tight to make the lever cap with the screw through it? Does it need to be so tight it is hard to lift the lever or is loose enough to flip it easily good enough?



See above.

Let us know how you get on.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

I am having an issue with frog adjustment. There is a brass wheel that I believe is for fine adjustment but there are two screws below the wheel which I am not sure I understand.

Like Derek, this first brought thoughts of Bedrock to mind. That is why pictures always help.

Here is another post with a little help on setting the frog:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?114373-Fettling-A-Plane-from-Junker-to-Jointer&p=1156032#post1156032

On a Stanley/Bailey plane one of the screws holds a fork that fits into the slot around the bottom screw. This allows moving the frog back and forth to adjust the mouth.

To keep things simple my suggestion is to set the frog in the full mouth open position and go from there.

Once you are setting it up it will likely become clear and take less time than reading about how it is done.

If you are grunting when tightening the screws you are likely making them too tight.

Then just make shavings.

jtk

[Moses Yoder]

Just to kind of clarify maybe a little more, for rough stock removal you want a larger "mouth" on the plane. The mouth is the opening in front of the blade. For coarse stock removal it needs to be large for large shavings to pass through. For fine smoothing you want a very small mouth, which lessens tearout. This is why the frog is adjustable. When setting up the plane you adjust the frog for the size mouth you want and then lock it into position by tightening the screws; it does not move during use. Only the blade is adjusted during use, which Derek gives clear instruction on.

The frog has two screws at its base, under the blade adjustment knob. The top screw is only there to hold a tab in place that latches into the adjustment screw on the bottom. The top screw does no adjusting. To adjust the frog remove the blade and loosen the two screws under the blade that hold the frog to the bed. Replace the blade and turn the bottom screw at the back of the frog until the mouth is the size you want. Then remove the blade and tighten the screws, locking the frog into place.

[Mike Holbrook]

Gentlemen, thanks for all the helpful advise and suggestions.

To explain my confusion. The first old plane I bought is a Sargent #5. The Sargent does not have the adjusting screw and smaller "keeper" screw under the adjusting wheel. Also a couple of the planes I bought were not assembled correctly. The "keeper" screw which holds a little metal plate in place over the frog adjusting screw was incorrectly installed placing the "keeper plate" behind the groove in the adjusting screw instead of in it. Also the frog adjuster screw on my #6 Stanley is, for the moment, frozen/rusted in an inappropriate place. So long story short, a combination of odd factors was causing me to doubt what I thought to be correct.

I have taken the #6 and #5 back apart. I have worked on the frog adjusting screw & keeper screw on the #5 and they are now functioning properly. The #6 frog adjusting assembly is soaking in lubricants & deruster. I think the #6 will be fine too, there does not appear to be large amounts of rust. It may have just been tightened way too tight. I am just going slow with it trying not to strip any threads. The frog adjusting assemblies on my #4 and #3 look like they should be in decent shape. I will take the 3 & 4 apart next and make sure the frog adjusting assemblies are functioning properly.

Derek, I should have been a little more explicit in my description of the "frog adjustment assembly" on my planes. I can see how it might have sounded like I was talking about the additional Bedrock frog screws. Also thanks for the tip about chipbreaker placement and blade length in regard to adjusting the frog and mouth on these planes. The #3 Stanley arrived with a very short blade. I decided I liked the plane so I ordered a new Veritas PM-V11 blade & chipbreaker/cap iron for it and one for the #6 too.

The other thing that I was concerned with on the #6 is the Stanley lever cap was extending out past the bevel on the Veritas cap iron which I though could be a problem. I think this issue may be solved when I get the #6's frog adjustment assembly working again. I hope then I will be able to position the blade and cap iron where they need to be. Currently, even with the adjusting wheel adjusted as far down as it can go the Veritas blade and cap iron are not nearly low enough in the planes mouth to contact wood. I'm not sure how the frog adjustment assembly on the #6 ever got in that position, but it is currently locked there.

[Mike Holbrook]

Whoever owned the #6 before I got it must have had vise grips for hands. I can't get the frog adjustment screw or the screw above it, that holds the "keeper plate" in place, to budge.

[steven c newman]

One little tip I use when setting up the vintage planes I have:

On the base casting, there is a small ramp-like area right behind the opening of the mouth. I try to align the face of the frog to be coplanar with the face of that ramp. I then have support all the way from the mouth opening up to at least the lever cap bolt. I use this as a "baseline" when adjusting plane's frog location. Usually, I do not have to move the frog again.
300373
even works for a 14" long jack plane...

[Mike Holbrook]

Good tip Steven. I think Jim is alluding to a similar practice above. I just set my #3, #4 & #5 up exactly that way. I would do the same with the #6 if I could get the frog adjuster screw to budge!

I am still playing with amounts of tension on chip breaker/cap iron bolts and the lever cap. The Veritas Stanley plane blades & cap irons are interesting in that the bolt that holds the two together can remove about all the gap between the two without even tightening it very tight.

[Greg Wease]

If you have a heat gun give the heads of those ornery screws a blast, then position your screwdriver and give the handle a few taps with a hammer. Usually works for me.

[Bill Houghton]

Library. Library. Library. Your friendly local library will have books for beginning woodworkers. The basic adjustment of a Bailey-model plane is covered in most of them. Local library systems are less likely to have these two, but they're not expensive online: Garrett Hack's "The Hand Plane Book" and Hampton and Clifford's "Planecraft" (the latter no longer in print but available cheap on used book sites) also explain it. If you can learn how to read the early-20th-century British prose, "Planecraft" is an invaluable book.

[Dave Parkis]

The best thing I've found for frozen screws, nuts and bolts is a product called Kroil. It is hard to find retail, but you can order it on line.

[Mike Holbrook]

Maybe I will give Kroll a try Dave. I don't have a heat gun, tapping does not work. I tried levering a screwdriver with a large wrench. I think I would have broken the screwdriver before the screw gave in. So far I can't get either screw to budge.

I put the #6C plane back together. I was able to position the frog right up against the appropriate section of the mouth. Unfortunately the adjusting wheel runs the blade into the far side of the mouth before the blade can get out past the plane's bottom.

[Jim Koepke]

Maybe I will give Kroll a try Dave. I don't have a heat gun, tapping does not work. I tried levering a screwdriver with a large wrench. I think I would have broken the screwdriver before the screw gave in. So far I can't get either screw to budge.

I put the #6C plane back together. I was able to position the frog right up against the appropriate section of the mouth. Unfortunately the adjusting wheel runs the blade into the far side of the mouth before the blade can get out past the plane's bottom.

It is possible someone who didn't know any better used loctite or some other product on the threads.

Mike, do you have a way of taking pictures to post here? It would be helpful in understanding what is taking place.

It sounds like you may have the blade installed incorrectly.

Will come back later, SWMBO is calling.

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

It isn't easy to get descriptive pictures with a cell phone & the strange light in this area of my shop but I tried a few times and I think these are the most descriptive even if they are somewhat flawed:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/macholbrooks/

I elected to link to larger pictures in the hope that the subject can be seen better, hope this helps. I placed descriptions and comments with the Flicker pictures that I hope are helpful.

[Warren Mickley]

The frog does not have to move unless you are having problems with too tight a mouth or something. My frog from the same era plane has not been moved in over thirty years.

The frog adjustment does not affect the blade projection. You talk about the blade adjusting screw being too far out. It is possible that the fork (lever between the the cap iron and adjusting screw) was put in backwards. You can probably see if this is the case.

Try the plane and see how it works. You may be looking for problems that don't exist.

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks for the help Warren.

I understand that once properly set the frog may never need to be moved at all. I am also a little confused because the frog on this plane appears to be in the position in needs to be in. Still, the problem is my plane blades (both the stanley blade & chipbreaker and a new Veritas blade & cap iron) are running into the far side of the planes body, at the mouth, before the blade extends out of the mouth. I believe this is the "too tight a mouth" problem Warren refers to. I have #5, #4 & #3 Stanley planes and a Sargent #5 that I have adjusted into operational condition without this problem.

The only difference I can see is the frozen screws on the frog prevent me from adjusting the frog adjusting screw. I may have referred to the frog adjusting wheel as being quite far out in a place or two, the wheel not the adjusting screw. My reference there is just to explain that I seem to be at an outer limit of the plane adjusting wheel just to get the blade close to extended far enough to contact wood. My confusion is the frog seems to be properly placed but I still seem to have the "tight mouth" issue.

Warren I took my #5 apart and compared the fork portion of the blade adjusting assembly to that of my #6 plane. The two forks are quite close in appearance/angle at various depths on the screw they move on. The #6 fork may have a little less angle, via wheel movement, reflected in it's fork but not much as far as I can tell.

[Warren Mickley]

If you loosen the two screws on the top side of the frog, you can take off the frog and make sure the frog is not frozen to the bed. Also you will have better access to the threads of the frog adjustment screw for lubricating.

If you can remove the little screw just above the frog adjusting screw, you can remove the little plate that engages the frog screw. This will take the frog adjustment screw completely out of the equation. You can still adjust the frog and clamp it down tight withthe upper screws when it is where you want it.

[steven c newman]

Photos are a bit fuzzy, but i do have a DE6c, with a Berg "Shark" iron on it
300479
The frog behind the frog. I might get a better chip breaker, someday. I am at the end of the bolt with the wheel
300480
The "Shark" from Berg. Chip breaker was a union, as Union made this plane for Diamond Edge
300481
Where my frog sits. I might move it forward, maybe by a blond hair, this maybe a bit older than yours.
300482
with it all in place. On another plane:300483Sargent #414c, right up to the ramp. Both of these planes have BIG ramps. On a "Eclipse" #4 i picked the other day, the "ramp" was more of a speed bump. I rested the front edge of the frog right on the middle of the "bump"
300487
Seemed to work out, though300488

As for "tight mouth" adjust the frog back a bit. Then adjust the chipbreaker back from the edge of the iron a tiny bit. That Eclipse plane, when i picked it up, had a very tight mouth.....bevel up, instead of bevel down.......with the chipbreaker resting ON the bevel, no less.

[Chuck Nickerson]

Still, the problem is my plane blades (both the stanley blade & chipbreaker and a new Veritas blade & cap iron) are running into the far side of the planes body, at the mouth, before the blade extends out of the mouth.

This sounds like a problem I had dropping a LV PM-V11 blade into a LN #4-1/2. Pardon the untechnical language... the tab from the frog that extends into the blade was mismatched to the hole in the chip breaker. Choosing between narrowing the tab or widening the hole, I widened the hole. It was harder but blades are cheaper to replace.

[Mike Holbrook]

Warren, I have had the frog off several times. I set it straight up in a yogurt cup for a while so Goof Off, WD 40...could work down into the screw better. The smaller higher screw is just as stuck as the adjuster screw is. If you look at my pictures closely you may see a small piece missing on the screw that holds the plate/keeper in place, that is a result of my last effort to torque a screwdriver in the slot via a wrench. I have moved the frog around on the plane body within the limits allowed by the frozen blade adjustment assembly. I will experiment with these adjustments again though as I have achieved somewhat different results via those methods.

Steven I think we have similar models of the #6 as my lever cap also lacks Stanley printed on it. My adjusting wheel also appears to be the smaller size as yours appears to be... I achieved my picture of the blade set in the mouth by moving the cap iron back a little further than it would normally reside. I will do some more experimenting with this modification as well though. So far the only way I have been able to get the blade on my #6 past the mouth has been to skew the blade dramatically with the side to side lever. I am wondering if I may have some Frankenplane part that looks right but isn't exactly right? I have experimented both with the Stanley blade (V type logo) and the Veritas blade & cap iron. Although the Veritas blade & cap iron are a little thicker, the Stanely chipbreaker makes that part of the Stanley plane wider than the Veritas.

Chuck the tab on my #6 frog seems to fit in the hole in both the Stanley and Veritas blade assemblies and work properly. I will double check that suggestion too though.

[David Weaver]

Photos are a bit fuzzy, but i do have a DE6c, with a Berg "Shark" iron on it
300479
The frog behind the frog. I might get a better chip breaker, someday. I am at the end of the bolt with the wheel
300480
The "Shark" from Berg. Chip breaker was a union, as Union made this plane for Diamond Edge
300481
Where my frog sits. I might move it forward, maybe by a blond hair, this maybe a bit older than yours.
300482
with it all in place. On another plane:300483Sargent #414c, right up to the ramp. Both of these planes have BIG ramps. On a "Eclipse" #4 i picked the other day, the "ramp" was more of a speed bump. I rested the front edge of the frog right on the middle of the "bump"
300487
Seemed to work out, though300488

As for "tight mouth" adjust the frog back a bit. Then adjust the chipbreaker back from the edge of the iron a tiny bit. That Eclipse plane, when i picked it up, had a very tight mouth.....bevel up, instead of bevel down.......with the chipbreaker resting ON the bevel, no less.

The frog on that plane and the casting setup appears to me to suggest that the maker wants the iron resting on the casting, which several years ago would've caused people to have a stroke (because all of the "wisdom" told us to close the mouth of the plane, something that's relatively pointless on a common pitch plane). I would've poo pooed that type, too.

But with that casting being solid and allowing you to rest the iron on the casting while the frog just needs to line up relatively close behind it, and with the eskilstuna iron, it should make for a very nice plane to use.

Eskilstuna irons were probably the best of the vintage irons made for bailey planes, though there are a lot of good ones if they are used in the context they were designed for (that is, with the cap iron set properly so that the plane stays in the cut longer, and using a shaving thicker than a thousandth or two, and saving the last pass of getting the brightest surface possible for those very thin shavings).

[steven c newman]

IF the edge of the irons are square, then the frog is sitting at an angle to the mouth. Lossen ONE frog bolt, swing the frog aroung just a bit each way. Bolts should be in the same spot in the slotted holes in the frog. Sometimes, when tightening them down tight, they tend to wander a bit. BTDT. A straight screwdriver blade works nicely to move the frog a bit, too.

[Jim Koepke]

Mike,

You may have a problem that is not uncommon with planes. The mouth may be too tight from the factory. More than one of my planes has had this problem. Most often it happens when installing a new, thicker blade.

Before assuming this is the problem make sure the blade is seating on the frog properly. There should not be much of a gap between the blade and he face of the frog.

Here is a picture of how it should not look:

300492

This can be caused by a few thing such as the lateral adjuster not being properly seated in a blade's slot.

If all else is correct, then you may need to remove a little bit of metal from the front of the mouth.

You will need a thin flat file. My preference is to use files known as safety files. They only have teeth on one or two sides so as to not cut into unwanted areas. A regular file is fine if you are careful at the sides of the mouth. I have even used one of my auger files for opening a plane's mouth.

My preference if to file from the sole of the plane toward the inside of the plane. Most of the time the plane is mounted in a vise, being careful not to over tighten, the plane is mounted at an angle so the file can be held flat.

The Stanley/Bailey planes are cast iron which is somewhat soft. The metal comes off rather quick. It is helpful to scribe a line just a little back from the edge being filed. File a little and check the progress. It is always easy to file a little more if needed. It is impossible to file less if it was taken too far.

In your case, with a frog that isn't going to move, I would first check the back of the mouth. Set a steel rule or other thin flat object on the frog and slide it down toward the mouth. If it can stay flat on the frog and not bump the back edge of the mouth, then you will need to remove metal from the front of the mouth. If it does catch at the mouth then you will need to file a little off of the back of the mouth to correct this. As much as possible you want to keep that angle the same as the face of the frog. It can be a tedious process to remove the frog, file a touch, check and repeat as necessary. Once it is done, the plane should be a great user.

For more information on opening up the mouth use the SMC search function with > file plane mouth < as the search term to find a lot of posts on this subject.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Oh, it is a very nice one to use. Makes full width "ribbons", too. This plane HAD a 2-1/4" wide Stanley "V" logo on it. Traded that wrong iron from the Shark @ 2-3/8" wide. Edge is straight, might go back and add a wee bit of camber at the corners.

This is the plane that arrived in the mail in two pieces. Refurb with a Union 6c base that matches the older Union DE6C base. Refund paid for all the parts, too.

[Mike Holbrook]

Although there are probably a host of minor elements at play I think Jim's suggestion about increasing the planes mouth may be the ultimate solution. I finally got the blade out, although there is practically no place for the shavings to go. My best guess is someone set this particular #6 up for very fine shavings which is about the opposite of what I plan to use it for. As someone suggested above the prior owner may have locked the frog adjustment assembly in place with one of the thread glue/holders. As tight as the tolerances are in the mouth of this plane, it is hard to adjust the blade side to side or up & down. The blade touching the mouth causes interference. It also looks to me like the forward edge of the mouth is not quite straight making it even tougher to position the blade.

I plan to work the mouth a little, as Jim suggests above. I hope straightening the front edge and adding a little slope will free up the blade and adjustment assembly even without opening it wider much.

[Mel Miller]

WD-40 and Goof Off are not designed to break loose rusted screws. Use Kroil or something similar. Then tap the frog adjusting screw from all angles with a punch & hammer. Heat it up good and hot as well, but let it cool before trying to turn it. I've never seen one that wouldn't come loose, and see no reason why anybody would use loctite to hold one in place. With the 2 screws holding the frog in place, the adjusting screw would stay right where it was set.

The frog looks too far forward in your pictures. That would explain the blade hitting the front of the throat. Don't start filing out the throat until you make sure it has to be done.

[Jim Koepke]

...see no reason why anybody would use loctite to hold one in place.

People often do things without rhyme or reason.



The frog looks too far forward in your pictures. That would explain the blade hitting the front of the throat. Don't start filing out the throat until you make sure it has to be done.

In this image of the plane's mouth there appears to be a glint of the base between the frog's face and the edge of the mouth:

300575

I may not be seeing this clearly, but that is why I thought the blade might be lifted a little forward by the frog's position.

I agree that all other avenues are worth pursuing before filing.

I would be tempted to remove the frog from the plane and carefully secure it in a vise. Not too tight!

Then I would try using a wrench on the tab to see if it could be turned at all. It sits in a cavity so it won't be able to be turned more than a degree or two, but it might help to loosen at least the one screw. If all else failed the tab could be removed and the frog adjusted as it was done before there were adjustment screws.

jtk