I just bought the Knew Concept fret saw, and I don't like it.

[Fidel Fernandez]

I am teaching myself to cut dovetails by hand and it is a slow progress. I am at the point where the glue will hide some imperfections.
My problem is that I am slow, even in a good day I am slow.

I decided to buy the fret saw to speed up the process. I got it this wednesday and I went to try.

I didn't see a major improvement from my regular coping saw. The fret blade flexes a lot more than ⅜" making my cut difficult.

Well, I did the logical thing. I increased the tension and went to cut, it cut better the first pin, the second pin was flexing a lot and the tension mechanism got loose. No, not the blade, the blade was tight.

I went back to the instructions, videos, etc same problem. The lever still engaged in the top position, but there is no tension.
I had to go to the whole process to install the blade, even it is the same blade. I make it ping really good with my finger so I know it is good tension. 2 cuts later is loose again.

It is going back to Highland. I know it is a defect and it doesn't mean all of the saws are the same, but first impression counts a lot.

Do you guys have a similar experience?

[Malcolm Schweizer]

No problems here, and I can't figure what would cause your problem.

[Tony Zaffuto]

It probably works for some and doesn't for others!

I like my $15.00 Olson (I think) from Tools for Working Wood. I like it so much in fact I bought a second one, so one can have the blade cast off to the right on one and the other to the left, so I never have to adjust when I wasting DT's with it. The blades (can't remember which I have, but they were the recommended blades) work just fine. This style of saw has been around forever and has served craftsmen very well for the same length of time, which is many decades.

Fortunately for you, since your saw has been talked up up sufficiently by bloggers, you can either return or sell it without much loss. But if you get a replacement, please try one of the saws that have been serving the rest of us for ever and post here if there difference was really worth it.

[David Weaver]

I had one for a while, just an aluminum fretsaw (5" type), and it seemed like an expensive solution to a cheap problem.

I went back to a $20 german style fretsaw and two coping saws that total $25 (one push and one pull).

[Sean Hughto]

Never had any problem.

Oh, yeah, I use a chisel. :p

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chevy_chase_hughtos/3496155520/in/set-72157607001006126

[Chris Griggs]

I like my $15.00 Olson (I think) from Tools for Working Wood.

Same here. Personally, I've had no reason to or desire to use anything else.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Fidel

I have used a few - slight variations in design over the years as a few years ago now I had helped get the fretsaw off the ground. However my experience has been limited to titanium, and I cannot comment outside this type. None of the ones I have flexed in use. All the KC fretsaws have been an advance on the vintage types I used in past years.

It would be easier to comment if you explained how you used the fretsaw, and whether you have used any fretsaw before. Notwithstanding the stiff frame, the KC fretsaw is still able to flex if used with a heavy hand. Everything has proper technique. And then you may indeed have a dud.

A year ago I completed a combined review/test of the latest version of the KC. This looked at technique, but also at the frame stiffness. It is here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/KnewConceptsBirdcageFretsaw.html


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Belair]

Paul Sellers also questions the need for a high end coping saw
https://paulsellers.com/2014/11/coping-and-the-costs-of-coping-saws-and-blades/

(I realize not everyone is a fan of PS)

[Fidel Fernandez]

Never had any problem.

Oh, yeah, I use a chisel. :p

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chevy_chase_hughtos/3496155520/in/set-72157607001006126

For some reason the video stops after a few seconds. I guess the server is busy, I will try later.

[Sean Hughto]

Fidel, don't waste your time. The video is just a trifle. I posted a link cause for a few seconds in it, I'm chopping out some DT waste. Sorry to distract.

[Fidel Fernandez]

I used a fret saw before, but I have used a coping saw more often.
I let the saw to make the cut, I am used to my japanese saws and with them you don't have to make any effort they just make the cut.

The frame doesn't bend at all, I thought the blade was flexing, but it is the tension mechanism that disengage.
I tried to move the lever up and down to see if it engages again, but no, it doesn't happen.

I have to start like I am installing a new blade. I notice that when I release the lever and release the knobs that hold the blade, something springs back and the blade comes back straight. It likes there is something stuck internally then when I release everything it goes into position.

[paul cottingham]

I bought a jig saw, and couldn't get it tight enough. So I made a bowsaw. The 12" gramercy one. Works great.
I had considered the knew concepts, but couldn't justify it. A bowsaw is a little more multipurpose. YMMV

[Derek Cohen]

The frame doesn't bend at all, I thought the blade was flexing, but it is the tension mechanism that disengage.
I tried to move the lever up and down to see if it engages again, but no, it doesn't happen.

I have to start like I am installing a new blade. I notice that when I release the lever and release the knobs that hold the blade, something springs back and the blade comes back straight. It likes there is something stuck internally then when I release everything it goes into position.

Hi Fidel

Something wrong there. It sounds like the blade end is not held securely/fully within the blade clamp/holder and then the blade pulls out when the release leaver is tightened. Either the blade has not been fully inserted into the holder before tightening the knob (this can happen), or the blade you are using is too short to provide enough grip area (this can happen as well). Are you using the supplied blade, or another?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Never had any problem.

Oh, yeah, I use a chisel. :p

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chevy_chase_hughtos/3496155520/in/set-72157607001006126

Man, Sean, you are FAST! That went by in the blink of an eye! http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/icons/icon10.png

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

I have filed teeth into regular jeweler's saw blade chucks with a checkering file to increase the grip. Should not be necessary with an expensive saw,though.

[ken hatch]

I've one hanging on a peg where it will stay to remind me that sometimes new isn't better. The TFWW bow saw works better and the Olson coping saw works better for a heck of a lot less money.

[Fidel Fernandez]

I know what a bow saw is but, what TFWW stands for?

[paul cottingham]

Tools for working wood. They make the bowsaw kit I made mine from. Great piece of kit indeed. $50 for the kit, $160 for the saw. Or so. I'm a terrible woodworker and I made a very functional saw using their kit.

[Shawn Pixley]

I like mine. Some times I use it for dovetails, sometimes I chop. Last monday I used it to cut straight slots in a 1.25"x1" block of brass. For that, it was much better than a standard fret saw.

As to your tensioning problem, I haven't experienced except with blades that are too long. Watching other set it up though, I see them not bottoming out the tension assembly when fastening in the blade.

[Hilton Ralphs]

I like my $15.00 Olson (I think) from Tools for Working Wood. I like it so much in fact I bought a second one



Same here. Personally, I've had no reason to or desire to use anything else.

I bought one of those from T4WW and on the first time cutting with it the handle popped off. It wasn't even glued on. I ended up finishing the cut with my forefinger looped over the bottom part of the frame.

[Warren Mickley]

I have used a coping saw for dovetails for forty years. I use the Eclipse coping saw, which I recommend. It is now available from Highland also. I have several fret saws; I use them for fretwork.

[Jeff Wittrock]

I use a small wooden turning saw I made to use regular coping saw blades. It's a little bulkier than a coping saw, but not any heavier and I can tension it up more.

[Derek Cohen]

Interesting replies .... the OP asks for help with his KC fretsaw ... and everyone tells him what they prefer to use instead.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Sean Hughto]

Interesting replies .... the OP asks for help with his KC fretsaw ... and everyone tells him what they prefer to use instead.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Actually, Derek, I read the op to say he was unhappy with the saw and was going to return it. Without the saw, he will likely require and alternative method for dealing with the waste. :)

[Derek Cohen]

True, Sean, but he spent a lot of time describing what did not work, and it was obvious (to me) that he was frustrated about this. I'm predisposed to find a solution - blame the years of graduate school :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Paul Sidener]

It is going back to Highland. I know it is a defect and it doesn't mean all of the saws are the same, but first impression counts a lot.


I would talk to customer service at Knew Concepts before I returned it to Highland. Give them a chance to answer your questions, they should be able to help. I don't use s fret saw, I use a dovetail saw and chisel. That being said, I would still start with the manufacturer. I have a fret saw, I choose to do the job a different way, that works for me.

[David Weaver]

Interesting replies .... the OP asks for help with his KC fretsaw ... and everyone tells him what they prefer to use instead.

Regards from Perth

Derek

That's because some of us got an iteration of the fretsaws and either returned or sold them and have an idea on what we'd rather use.

The fretsaw itself, being used for dovetails, is a top example of boutique woodworking - an expensive solution to a problem that doesn't exist with even the most basic level of skill and repetition.

I agree with warren's sentiment, when I was using mine I felt like it would be a really nice saw to have and use if I was actually doing fretwork or jewelry work.

Side comment - it's not out of bounds for the people who gravitate toward coping saw blades to touch them up quickly with a file after getting them out of package. Eventually they break, but not nearly as often as a fretsaw blade, and they cut like crazy when they've been touched up with a file (which only takes about two minutes).

[Brian Holcombe]

I usually just chop out the waste, but on a recent project I decided to cut the waste out with a bowsaw and a turbo cut blade. Worked nicely for big stuff, such as big 3" spaces between tenons in 6/4 white oak.

[bob blakeborough]

True, Sean, but he spent a lot of time describing what did not work, and it was obvious (to me) that he was frustrated about this. I'm predisposed to find a solution - blame the years of graduate school :)

Regards from Perth

DerekMy solution was to sell it... I just did not like it (I tried for a long time) and went back to using the simple featherweight frame from Lee Valley. That said, my buddy LOVES his KC saw. Who's to say what we like and don't like? I do agree with your train of thought though. Try and figure out what is causing the things you don't like and see if it is correctable. If you find it isn't, move on to a different method or tool. Sometimes simple and cheap is the way to go over higher priced, higher tech options. Sometimes it is the other way around...

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Yeah, my Olson coping saw, the handle pops off on occasion- usually if I rap the handle against the bench every now and then, it's not an issue; also not as much a problem if it's cutting on the push stroke. I keep meaning to pin it…

[lowell holmes]

[
Side comment - it's not out of bounds for the people who gravitate toward coping saw blades to touch them up quickly with a file after getting them out of package. Eventually they break, but not nearly as often as a fretsaw blade, and they cut like crazy when they've been touched up with a file (which only takes about two minutes).[/QUOTE]


Will you elaborate on this? I've clamped new blades to take some of the set out.

Are you reshaping the teeth? How do you clamp them when filing?

[David Weaver]

I clamp them in a machinist vise and just make a single file pass with a xx slim file on each tooth.

I don't know of anything else (other than a machinist vise) that would be fine enough to hold them (though maybe two small hollowed pieces of hardwood could be biased to put pressure on a blade right at the edge). Most of the blades out there are "close" to being good, and a single file pass makes them very keen.

[Mel Fulks]

I've never used one of KC saws but every time I see one I think of the old line, "if you believe that, I've got a bridge I'd
like to sell you". I don't need a small bridge, but concede that the long span might help some keep the blade path going in
the right direction.

[Tony Zaffuto]

For me, it is not a new tool being released, but rather the blather posted by bloggers that seem to have far more time to play with a computer than making things! I figured if I saw some of the guys on forums posting about how a new tool is the greatest thing since sliced bread, then I consider it. Otherwise, if what I have works, then, i ignore. If what I have works very well and is a fraction of the cost, I ignore the too and stick with what works for me. For others, the opposite may be true, as in the end it's all in how we use our tools.

[Jim Belair]

If after all this someone is looking for a KC fretsaw, there's one for sale on the Canadian WW forum. Cdn$70 (~US$60)

Not mine.

[Simon MacGowen]

If anyone thinks the Knew Concepts saws can enhance their sawing skills, they soon will find out it is not the case. I have used the Knew saw and would not recommend them to my students unless they are buying them just because they like the look and style of the saw.

If we think the saws are expensive and not much better than what we already have been using, wait till you see those $90+ handles made for the Knew Concepts saws. I haven't had the luck to try one out because all of my woodworking partners and friends think it is ridiculous to spend that kind of money on a tool handle. But then woodworkers are known or infamous for throwing money at things that won't make money sense.

Simon

[Daniel Rode]

If someone want a modern stylish looking saw, I'm sure Knew Concepts is the way to go. I have every reason to believe that the KC cuts wood as well as my $11 coping saw, so the choice comes down to one of personal preference. I think it's ugly, so I'm not going to pay 10-15 time more for a saw I find unattractive. Even if I found it to be the most stylish and beautiful coping saw I'd ever seen, I'd only be willing to pay and extra $5.

The $150 saved will buy a nice supply of quality blades.

Honestly, any coping saw where the harp provides enough tension and the blade doesn't spin is a good saw.

[lowell holmes]

I will have to try that on my bow saw blade. It is too grabby for me, but it is sharp.

[David Weaver]

I will have to try that on my bow saw blade. It is too grabby for me, but it is sharp.

You can take a file and kiss 5% of the rake off of it with a single file pass or two, it'll still be sharp and it won't be as grabby. I don't know if your blade is crosscut or rip, but you don't have to work the whole tooth when you're finding what you like from it, of course. Some of the bowsaw blades (and some inexpensive handsaws) have a bit of a hook to the tooth, I guess just due to whatever is cutting the teeth. I don't know how they can make blades like that if they ever actually use them. Maybe it's a cost issue, but people should at least be able to use tools at a functional level, and if not, they should include a slip of paper telling you what you need to do to make them workable.

[Mike Brady]

I was hesitant and skeptical on several aspects of the Knew Concepts fret saw, but I eventually bought one of the aluminum fret saws out of frustration with other saws I had tried. It took a couple of careful readings of the instructions on inserting the blade to achieve the promised blade tension. I find that it serves me well now that I have tried a few different types of blades from Pegus. Since I cut mostly 3/4" hardwoods with it, I am not really qualified to do a comprehensive review of the Knew concepts fret saw. The complaints about the handle, except the surprisingly crude appearance of it, did not register with me. I was never tempted to buy the over-the-top aftermarket replacement handle.

From what I have read, I would caution the user to go lightly with the blade tensioning feature on the saw. It would not be difficult to apply tension that exceeds the capacity of the aluminum frame. Once that happens, the saw is pretty much wall decoration. I also doubt that this maker could be counted on to replace a damaged saw at no cost, so buyer beware.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Mainly out of curiosity, is anyone, that has a Knew Concept saw, able to saw to your DT baseline and NOT have to cleanup afterwards with a chisel?

[Simon MacGowen]

NOT have to cleanup afterwards with a chisel?
NO -- if you're talking about the tight, clean joints we all expect to see from a good joint.
Yes -- if the kinds of joints Frank K. did with his bow saw.

But I think Knew Concepts doesn't claim or is intended to be used to cut the baseline without a follow-up with a chisel.

Simon

[John Powers]

I've asked that question before. if you have to chop the waste what does it matter what fret/coping saw you use. so far no one says they just saw. I wont go into price...you wouldn't believe what my flyrod and guitars cost.

[David Weaver]

I've been there on the guitars, too, John. It's all a matter of perspective in the costs, I guess. I think the idea of a $90 handle (or whatever it is) is pretty ludicrous, but it's someone else's money and sometimes if something motivates me, $90 is nothing. I recognize it as an indulgence, and the part where I divide from the blog world where it's like half of the vocabulary is off limits.

I mentioned yesterday getting minder PMs because I am opinionated and direct. There have been times in the past when I criticize something as being an indulgence but promoted as a necessity that I get minder posts from vendors suggesting that I am starving children (I have actually gotten posts about "taking food out of kids' mouths"). That's an instant off for me from a vendor. It is not an adversarial situation where I agree with the whole "hiding your cards and making opinions off limits".

That said, I think the guy who makes these saws (Lee) sounds like a good guy, and none of that is directed at him. He's got a segment of the market to sell to, and to the extent that people love his stuff, they should buy it. To the extent they don't, they can ignore anyone telling them that they should. As soon as we get into this hobby and start feeling like it creates a web of obligations or a web of out of bounds territory, then it's not much fun. If we want to be told of someone else's opinions that we should live by, we can go back to our mothers and wives.

This is a do what you want hobby, I see it that way with other peoples' opinions and mine is just hot air, too, if it doesn't resonate.

[David Weaver]

Mainly out of curiosity, is anyone, that has a Knew Concept saw, able to saw to your DT baseline and NOT have to cleanup afterwards with a chisel?

Tony - I'm never not making dovetails for something, but your challenge (which I know you didn't suggest as such) is something I think I'll take on at some point. Sellers does it in a lot of videos. I come down and then across with a coping saw, and I'm pretty sure I could cut some good baselines in softwood with a coping saw, as long as the inside of the drawer isn't vital. I've not seen the inside of the drawer on sellers' cuts in white pine, but the outside looks decent. If he can do it, we can do.

(now, who is willing to give up the white glove care on the looks of the inside of a drawer, though).

[Tony Zaffuto]

I think we're all pretty much in agreement here. I'm almost of the mind that the Knew Concept saw was not originally developed for the use of wasting out dovetails, but was advertised by a few tool bloggers that it can do an excellent job at it. I wish tool reviews/bloggers would adhere to a caveat of stating "well this is a very fine tool to do such and such, there are also scads of other tools out there also fully capable of doing the job".

Personally, the Knew Concept looks a little too space age for my tastes. I suppose I could make my own coping saw with a very ridged frame, relying simply on a fine thread screw device to tension the blade, but to what avail? I will still need to pare some waste!

[Jim Koepke]

To me, the KC saw looks great. There isn't likely to be one in my shop even if my Lottery numbers come in.


I suppose I could make my own coping saw with a very ridged frame, relying simply on a fine thread screw device to tension the blade, but to what avail? I will still need to pare some waste!

Having tried sawing the waste out a few times and seeing that chisel work is still needed has me back to mostly chopping my waste with a chisel.

jtk

[John Powers]

Well I guess that's the nub. The creator made a saw and people touted it as the second coming. As if it would benefit the user in a big way. And thats the rub. If you have to chop you use the $15.00 saw or opt for the big bucks. The retrofit handle was to me too much.

[Derek Cohen]

I think we're all pretty much in agreement here. I'm almost of the mind that the Knew Concept saw was not originally developed for the use of wasting out dovetails, but was advertised by a few tool bloggers that it can do an excellent job at it. I wish tool reviews/bloggers would adhere to a caveat of stating "well this is a very fine tool to do such and such, there are also scads of other tools out there also fully capable of doing the job".

Personally, the Knew Concept looks a little too space age for my tastes. I suppose I could make my own coping saw with a very ridged frame, relying simply on a fine thread screw device to tension the blade, but to what avail? I will still need to pare some waste!

Hi Tony, I am not having a go at you - just that you raised some points which I think summarise much of the comments that came before. Cheers.

I wasn't planning on posting again in this thread, which I considered to be a train wreck of some of the silliest comments I've read for a while on SMC. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but some here appear to just want to be heard as they have little or no knowledge of the fretsaw in question, or perhaps have little understanding of dovetailing, or both.

First of all, the KC fretsaw is just that, a fretsaw. It is not a coping saw. KC do make a coping saw. It is an excellent coping saw - ask Chris Schwarz, who is very fussy about coping saws - and, like the fretsaw, it is expensive compared to what else is available.

CS review: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/a-real-contender-the-knew-concepts-coping-saw

The cost of a tool is a factor that comes up often on this forum. I am not saying that “value” is an irrelevant matter for many amateur woodworkers, but it is not the same for all … and there is clearly a considerable amount of double standards evident here. How many here consider it acceptable to purchase a Wenzloff dovetail saw, a Lie-Nielsen smoother, a Veritas LA Jack, CBN grinding wheels … Should we talk cars, guitars and whatever?

I do have a bone in this fight. No, I do not have a vested interest in the sales of the KC saws. It is just that I consider Lee Marshall, who manufactures the KC saws, a friend and know him as a genuine, straight-up bloke, who would be distressed by the accusation that his saws are a rip off, or even that they do not work as well as they are designed to do. (Having stated this, I agree about the handle - which I have written (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/KnewConceptsBirdcageFretsaw.html) about, even posted alternatives ... ).

The fretsaw began life as a saw for jewellers. KC has a strong following in the jewellery world. The only reason that they have a presence now in the woodworking world is because I talked Lee into making the fretsaw for woodworkers. If you read my original review you would understand how little he knew about dovetailing. The design evolved. I had some input early on, but not since the birdcage version.


Original review: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/KnewConceptsFretsaw.html

Contrary to what many seem to believe by the posts here, a tool only supplements the hand. Good tools do a better job than poor tools, but the hand still moves the tool the last time I checked. If you cannot saw a straight line, it may be technique. Then again you could have a crappy blade with poor set. Or a poor frame where the blade wanders about? The KC fretsaw does make it easier to saw to a straight line.

What a fretsaw does not do is eliminate the need for chisels. Where on Earth did this idea come from? Some prefer to chop out the waste, and some prefer to pare out the remainder after the bulk is sawn out, either with a fretsaw or a coping saw. A fretsaw requires less saw cuts than a coping saw. Either way one needs to pare out the remainder. Have you chopped really hard wood? Have you chopped Pine without taking chunks out? Get real!

My early response to the OP was aimed at determining what was wrong with the KC fretsaw he owned. I know it is a bloody good saw, and that either he had a dud sample or was using it incorrectly. It could have been any other tool. My first inclination is not to have a go at the saw and the toolmaker.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kees Heiden]

I wasn't planning on posting again in this thread, which I considered to be a train wreck of some of the silliest comments I've read for a while on SMC.
Derek

I really think you are exaggerating Derek. I've seen much much worse! It's just the age old debate between lovers of expensive stuff and the more thrifty lot.

Recently I am happy with my bowsaw. Saves quite a bit of time on chiseling, even when I leave quite a bit to the baseline. And the good thing, it is stiff, quick to setup and very cheap.

[Hilton Ralphs]

I'm one of those who erroneously posted about Olsen coping saws when I should have paid more attention to the fact that this thread was about a fret saw.

Apologies for this.

[David Weaver]

I stand by my comments,
* the saw seemed like it would be nice to use for fretwork or jewelry work (I had the original 5" aluminum saw). It could be used for dovetails, but no better than a coping saw.
* I'm sure lee is a nice guy, I have never seen otherwise. We have a problem in the boutique world where it's suggested more often that we buy tools from "nice guys", the same guys who run the circuit of the WIA shows and all include each other in their blogs. I'm sure most of them are nice guys. We're all "friends", as long as we're buying and promoting. I've gotten PMs every once in a while from "nice guys" that I need to "shut up" because (to paraphrase it), customers are fair game and it is only acceptable to promote or withhold any opinions otherwise. Lee is not in that category, and I wouldn't ever expect him to be, I've only ever heard that he's top shelf.
* it's not making the finish cut (something I pointed out long ago, money in tooling is generally spent on speed or precision. This is an area where all of the devices in a hand with even moderate experience work at about the same speed, and the precision is misplaced because it is not a job of precision to remove waste and do the precise work later with a chisel)
* I sold mine. I would've actually appreciated, especially in case sized dovetails, if it was a little heavier.
* The handle thing is something I don't get at all. Two handles and a user could have a used midi lathe and make as many as they'd like.

I think three other things come to mind:
* I really don't know why anyone would use Chris Schwarz's opinion as an indicator of much of anything unless he's relaying something a professional (who is not a tool seller) said. That can be taken a lot of ways, but specifically what I mean is that there is a whole world of professional woodworkers who have more relevant opinions. Chris's opinions will allow you to "blame the tool" and justify buying from the circle of "nice guys" and bloggers, though. I guess.
* I think you're overreacting because you have bias in this in the form of time spent promoting lee's stuff

It's perfectly fine for people to buy the saw and the handle, especially if someone is buying them like I buy sharpening stones and razors (which is a matter of fascination and not a utility based purchase). It's also fine if someone decides they really really want that saw and handle even if money is tight. It's also fine to recognize that this isn't really a place that the average person is going to get any long term utility in terms of dollars spent.

[lowell holmes]

Thanks for replying. I just never considered sharpening a coping or bow saw blade. You opened my eyes.

They are from Tools for Working Wood and are cross cut (I believe, I'm not looking at one right now).

I made a bowsaw using their kit. I made it using curly maple. The maple's not good for a bow saw. I'm going to make another using qs white oak.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I'm one of those who erroneously posted about Olsen coping saws when I should have paid more attention to the fact that this thread was about a fret saw.

Apologies for this.

I'm in the same boat Hilton!

[Hilton Ralphs]

I'm in the same boat Hilton!

Just don't fret too much Tony.

[Daniel Rode]

The OP is learning to cut dovetails. He bought an expensive fret saw to "speed up the process" and was not impressed with the result over his regular coping saw.

I think discussing the relative merits of coping vs fret saws and premium vs regular brands is right on topic.

My $0.02 is that a fret saw might help in some cases because it the small thin blade can turn 90 degrees in the kerf from a dovetail saw. So perhaps a little less cleanup on the start side of the cut? I come in at a slight angle with my coping saw. I takes one pass at the end to reduce the sloped start. Since I'm not doing any fretwork, there's not much incentive for me to buy a fret saw. Plus, the blades are more delicate and break more often (or so I'm told).

As for the premium KC fret and coping saw frames, I do not believe there is any advantage using the KC saw for cleaning up dovetail waste. None.

There is nothing wrong with buying a premium tool just because you like the design or materials or whatever but a titanium alloy shovel may not dig a hole any faster.

[Mike Brady]

Actually, Derek, the responder who inquired about cutting to a line with the saw was posing a fair question. Is the saw good enough to allow the skilled user to saw dovetail waste to a line? What do jewelry crafters do? Do they saw close and then file to their pattern marks, or is it one and done? I think that is what the detractors are asking in so many other words.

[george wilson]

Derek: THIS thread is not a trainwreck!!! Try reading the silly saw nib thread!!! Even supposed woodworkers like Shepherd thing the round nib is for starting cuts. It's just amazing.

[Jim Belair]

I stand by my comments, ....


And those comments, as summarized in your latest post, are bang on IMHO. Thank you for making them.

[Derek Cohen]

Actually, Derek, the responder who inquired about cutting to a line with the saw was posing a fair question. Is the saw good enough to allow the skilled user to saw dovetail waste to a line? What do jewelry crafters do? Do they saw close and then file to their pattern marks, or is it one and done? I think that is what the detractors are asking in so many other words.

Mike, the question you ask was already given - no one attempts to saw to a baseline. I certainly do not - I remove as much waste as possible and pare the remainder. Does anyone here? The only person I know who did this was Frank Klausz, who made up a special blade for his bowsaw, and this was just a gimmick (his results were somewhat coarse).

As to jewellers and how they saw, I have no idea - ask George whether a saw is all they use. I doubt it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

I can saw very accurately with a jeweler's saw. But,it's still a saw,and leaves a sawn surface that at least has to be filed smooth.

When I made the marquetry guitar,I used a yew wood fret saw I made that had a 2' deep throat,to encompass the guitar body. I used 6/0 jeweler's saw blades,too. You guys try holding THAT up with your wrist for hours on end,sawing right to the line. Those tiny blades are like a hair,and will snap if you look at them wrong. In marquetry,there is no room for errors. If you deviate from the line,it will be seen on the background even if you go back and fix the one piece.

In the 18th. C.,marquetry sawers made their OWN blades from watch springs,filing their teeth with needle files. They did just fine.

Anyway,I made that saw as light as possible. But,it just HAD to have strength enough to tension the blade. That took getting used to.

A regular jeweler's saw or normal off the shelf fret saw? I never gave a 2nd thought to using anything more "advanced". What's the fuss about saving a teeny amount of weight ?

[David Weaver]

I've only had one occasion to do deep work with a fret saw and it was something that I can't recall, furniture repair or whatever, and for it I bought the very deep fret saw that LV has. I noticed that it, too, was heavy in use, but to some extent, a saw with a 6 inch blade (or whatever) and a foot of clearance is always going to be a little bit unwieldy. I like the german fret saws fine, though, and kept one of that style. They're very easy to get tight if you use your body weight to set them by putting the fixture on the top of the saw on the edge of the bench (rather the rod that sticks out of it) and then placing a hand on the frame and handle and leaning on it before tightening the top screw. You can get so much tension like that, that you can pull the fretsaw blades right out of their clamps if you're not careful.

For a while, I used that style of saw for dovetails (and the KC aluminum saw for a little bit, too), and preferred the german type for general use because, well, you didn't worry about breaking it because another one would be $15, and the use of it was simple. Clamp the blades in the ends without tension, and then lean on the saw and tighten the screw at the top of the saw. If any surface (on the saw) doesn't hold like you like it to, just scuff it, and it will.

I still prefer a coping saw for dovetails of any size, though, as it seems a lot of people do. I can get decent enough blades anywhere for cheap, including at HD and go straight down through the pin waste or tail waste and then straight across without much regard for the saw.

[Derek Cohen]

Derek: THIS thread is not a trainwreck!!! Try reading the silly saw nib thread!!! Even supposed woodworkers like Shepherd thing the round nib is for starting cuts. It's just amazing.

George, you're right. I am overreacting .... just a smidgeon, mind you. :) Some of the comments, however, were just ignorant, and I should not be reading these while writing reports.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

Aggravatin,ain't it?

[Stewie Simpson]

Hi Derek. Is it not unreasonable to question some of the comments you make as being potentially biased if your close friends with the owner of the toolmaking business.

As for Chris Schwarz and his tool reviews. A bias would potentially exist with any review Chris does on LV tools. You just need to note his blog site major sponsor.http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog

Stewie;

[John Coloccia]

It's designed around metal working and jewelry. I'm not sure why people are buying them just to rough out dovetail waste. I'd love to have their precision saw frame for cutting shell. Knew Concepts stiffness and tensioning mechanisms are clearly superior to regular coping and fret saws, especially many of the ones you can buy today. The typical coping saws being sold are of very poor quality and often lack the ability to properly tension the blade no matter how tight you make it, though some don't seem as bad as others. Still, stiffer is better.

If you can afford it, and you want a better saw, it seems silly to worry about what some other woodworker or blog thinks about it. The one thing I don't like is that I typically use very thin blades, and they break a lot in shell. With my regular saw, I can keep using the same blade until it's too short. Then again, if I could reliably get more tension on it without over tensioning it, it would probably break less and cut smoother with less effort, so maybe it's a wash. These days, I farm out most of my shell work because I think it's a complete waste of time when my suppliers can do it faster and better with water jets and things like that. If I started doing more custom work, I'd certainly try one.

But even the most expensive titanium saw is what, $200? Some people, maybe even some in this very thread, have probably paid that and more just for a stupid sharpening stone. I think I paid more than that for one of my bandsaw blades. I don't think it would benefit me and my work at this time, but if I did I'd certainly pick one up and try it.

[David Weaver]

stupid sharpening stone

many!! though I wouldn't suggest it for other people unless they have the same fascination that I do with stones. If someone has the same fascination with jeweler's saws, then that's in the same notion of spending gobs on a specialty sharpening stone, but like those interested in stones, the users of the saw in that context would be few. That's sort of my point. If you're into that kind of thing, by all means spend the money. If you're not, then spend it somewhere else - on the things you're into.

The utility of the KC saws for actually accomplishing completion of work vs. other saws (be it on a results basis or a time spent basis) has been completely overstated over the last couple of years. Just as it would be overstated if I suggested people should buy kyoto mountain stones for any of their harder carbon steels. For doing the work, it makes no difference.

As far as guitars go "what do you mean I can't have the doves on the fingerboard?". Does anyone cut them with a scroll saw instead? They all appeared to be water or laser cut on every guitar that I had, but I never ordered any super duper mosaic scenes on a guitar, either. I'd be surprised if much of that stuff that's coming from custom shops doesn't originate in a drawing and get cut by a machine.

[dan sherman]

It always amazes me how the simplest of threads turns into a pissing contest......


The OP never stated that he purchased The KC saw because he thought it was better or faster than a cheaper saw regardless of it being a fret or coping saw. All he said is he bought the saw to speed up cutting dovetails. As others have said, sawing out waste can be easier/faster than chopping it out in certain scenarios. It's sad that almost no one tried to help the guy figure out his problem.

[John Coloccia]

As far as guitars go "what do you mean I can't have the doves on the fingerboard?". Does anyone cut them with a scroll saw instead? They all appeared to be water or laser cut on every guitar that I had, but I never ordered any super duper mosaic scenes on a guitar, either. I'd be surprised if much of that stuff that's coming from custom shops doesn't originate in a drawing and get cut by a machine.


Ha ha...why yes, I was talking about your sharpening stone fetish, David :D LOL

Certainly all of the big guys have their pearl cut on machines. I doubt if many cut them in house. It's really just best to farm it out most times. I believe PRS actually sends their fingerboards to the same outfit to be cut as well, and they just glue them in when they come back. They probably use Pearlworks. A lot of people do. They really are the best at this sort of thing and they've been doing it forever. I'm fortunate that I have a shell supplier just a short drive from my house...Masecraft. I believe they'll do custom runs too, but I've never tried it. I just buy the raw material, dot inlays and abalone rosette pieces from them.

I tried using a scroll saw. It's just not gentle enough, IMHO, and the parallelogram movement really screws things up as well. I didn't have a fun time. It also seems to want to constantly lift the MOP if you're not careful. It was a miserable week trying to get it to work for me. Some of the linear motion ones, especially the ones you can slow way down, look like they'd do a great job. Knew Concepts makes one of those too, though it's quite expensive. If that was my thing, though, I'd surely look into buying one. There are people that do inlay full time.

But most little guys just cut out any custom work by hand with a jewelers saw and bench pin. It goes pretty fast. It's crazy for repetitive work, though, because it's so cheap just to buy it if you have any sort of volume. I not only purchase my logo, they also inlay it for me in my truss rod cover. It saves me a lot of work, and I don't remember what I pay for them each, but it's not a lot. Maybe $15 each, or something like that, in batches of 5 or so. Maybe that's off a bit, but it's really not even worth worrying about on a guitar.

[David Weaver]

It always amazes me how the simplest of threads turns into a pissing contest......


The OP never stated that he purchased The KC saw because he thought it was better or faster than a cheaper saw regardless of it being a fret or coping saw. All he said is he bought the saw to speed up cutting dovetails. As others have said, sawing out waste can be easier/faster than chopping it out in certain scenarios. It's sad that almost no one tried to help the guy figure out his problem.

I think we can read the first post and gather:
* He doesn't really have a problem, he already solved it (he's sending the saw back). He's only looking to find out if anyone else had the same problem

I think he can read the rest of the posts and gather:
* No, nobody else seems to have had the same problem (i don't know how many people on here have actually bought a KC saw, though)

I had something else break on my saw, but it wasn't the same thing. I bought one of the early saws that had plastic fixtures to tighten and the wings broke off and I took a loss on that selling it. That's sort of irrelevant to the OP's problem, it's not the same issue and the fixtures on my saw were not like the fixtures are on the saws now.

[David Weaver]

Ha ha...why yes, I was talking about your sharpening stone fetish, David :D LOL

Certainly all of the big guys have their pearl cut on machines. I doubt if many cut them in house. It's really just best to farm it out most times. I believe PRS actually sends their fingerboards to the same outfit to be cut as well, and they just glue them in when they come back. They probably use Pearlworks. A lot of people do. They really are the best at this sort of thing and they've been doing it forever. I'm fortunate that I have a shell supplier just a short drive from my house...Masecraft. I believe they'll do custom runs too, but I've never tried it. I just buy the raw material, dot inlays and abalone rosette pieces from them.

I tried using a scroll saw. It's just not gentle enough, IMHO, and the parallelogram movement really screws things up as well. I didn't have a fun time. It also seems to want to constantly lift the MOP if you're not careful. It was a miserable week trying to get it to work for me. Some of the linear motion ones, especially the ones you can slow way down, look like they'd do a great job. Knew Concepts makes one of those too, though it's quite expensive. If that was my thing, though, I'd surely look into buying one. There are people that do inlay full time.

But most little guys just cut out any custom work by hand with a jewelers saw and bench pin. It goes pretty fast. It's crazy for repetitive work, though, because it's so cheap just to buy it if you have any sort of volume. I not only purchase my logo, they also inlay it for me in my truss rod cover. It saves me a lot of work, and I don't remember what I pay for them each, but it's not a lot. Maybe $15 each, or something like that, in batches of 5 or so. Maybe that's off a bit, but it's really not even worth worrying about on a guitar.

I'd do the same thing if I were in your shoes. I know george has talked about scroll saws sanding the sides of pieces in an unwanted way, i guess I'm not surprised to hear that in practice it doesn't work like one would want.

Years ago, I bought a guitar from a custom maker and they touted their inlays. They'd gotten some machine that cut custom inlays (this was a place with about a half dozen employees, I guess they could justify it), and I noticed that everything they did had the same inlays after that (they didn't charge me much extra for the inlays, though, and I could tell that at what they charged me there's no way someone could do all of that work by hand).

I had two banjos from them, too, and the first one had some pretty poor quality engraving on it (but it was done by hand). They also bought some kind of computer engraver, and that was the end of the "bad" engraving, but I'd rather have had that done by hand, anyway. Most customers probably don't care.

[Sean Hughto]

https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TS/item/MS-PSG.XX

[david charlesworth]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, I find a jewellers saw infinitely preferable to a coping saw for small dovetails. Over here we have a tradition of 5/16" drawer sides and of course on small furniture much less. Dressing table mirrors for instance.

I can select a blade that fits down a saw kerf, even a Japanese Dozuki kerf perhaps. (There are some great skip tooth blades about.)

The only Jewellers saw I found that was easy to tension, was the cheap German model with the screw tension adjuster at the end opposite the handle.

Knew concept saws have significantly stiffer frames, which makes them a better tool in my opinion. The lever tensioning device is quicker and more convenient. The blade holding method is vastly superior. No more wondering if the blade is kinked. I think the designer should be applauded for his improvements to this humble tool. Some of the saws have detents at 45 degrees in either direction. I know one can bend a blade like Rob Cosman, but just swivelling is also good!

I appreciate one slight snag, the price is on the high side, but when was innovation and product development cheap?

PS I have actually bought two!

best wishes,
David

[george wilson]

John,I never use a scroll saw.We only ever used the one at work for cutting inside saw handles. I always cut inlay material by hand. But,I thought I was going to get a young "apprentice" last year. I thought a scroll saw would be a safe saw to use. I had a Hegner scroll saw that I got cheap. It was variable speed,but had that miserable walking beam action that moved the blade in and out. I got rid of it when an old Delta with straight up and down motion came along. Caution: They have a fragile pot metal part that can break. I made a steel replacement once.

The Delta does go straight up and down,though. And,the blades were a huge pain to change on the Hegner. Much easier on the old Delta.

My apprentice didn't work out. Maybe now that I'm older,and don't want to sit in the position to hand saw inlay,I might use the Delta some day. I'd like to put a variable speed control with a foot operated rheostat on it. One I can stop without reaching for a switch.

[Adam Cruea]

I bought a KC coping saw to cut a pumpkin out of padauk for my wife (hand to cut curves and a stem and stuff).

Worked just fine for that, although I did snap a few blades when they got caught. But then again, I don't really think a coping/fret saw is for dovetails. I just lop the waste out with a chisel, but I also don't do the huge tail, little pin DTs.

That's just my opinion. Much like belly buttons and rectums, everyone has them, and some stink. Mine is probably not an exception to that rule. :D

[Jim Koepke]

I just lop the waste out with a chisel, but I also don't do the huge tail, little pin DTs.

I thought those were less work to chop than the tails with big pins.

jtk