Help with plans for large built-in cabinetry

[Wakahisa Shinta]

My wife asks me to build two large cabinets for our living room. They are about 6.25’ W x 8’ H, recessed 2’ into the wall. They are meant to house items we have collected during our travels, so the design calls for large spaces between shelves. One of the cabinets will house some AV equipment toward the bottom. I’ve attached a Sketchup JPEG.

Requirement: must match existing kitchen cabinet color, which is a dark mahogany color
Since this is my first built-in project and it’s a large one, I need to run it by you all for pointers before I start.

My plan:
Material: ¾” maple plywood for carcass, ¼” maple plywood for back, ¾” maple face frame.
Base: 2x4 with OSB panel to cover up concrete foundation.

1. Build the base
2. Rip and cross cut sheets to dimensions
3. Rip and cross cut the face frame
4. Dadoes for shelving
5. Mask glue joints
6. Stain with Sherwin Williams BAC stain
7. Finish with satin poly (brand TBD), spray application.
8. Assemble carcass, nail back in place after check for squareness
9. Install carcass
10. Attach face frame, adjusted for dry wall uneveness. Pin nail and yellow glue.
11. Somewhere in there, I will goof up, cry, and start over!

Is there anything else I should consider, revise, add, etc.? I am looking forward to this project because it will really dress up the living room and give my wife a place to display her collection.
Thank you.

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[scott vroom]

What grade plywood will you be using?

[James Baker SD]

Now we know why you are looking at sliders :)
Similar project is why I bought mine. Cannot really give you advice though as I have not finished mine yet :mad:
You're thinking it through and that is a good start. I am sure people with tons of experience will weigh in soon.

[Mark Bolton]

My first bit of advice would be to prepare a stain and finish sample before you lock down your species selection. It would be much easier to use a different species than wind up fighting with a finish schedule you regret. Make your samples large enough that you get a feel for the material. perhaps an 18"x18" sheet of ply and a 2' 1x6 or something.

Other than that, off the bat, I would say you'd better be planning on something other than 3/4" ply for shelves that wide and deep. They will be capable of handling much more weight than that shelf will support if its drawn with 3/4" ply.

[Chris Padilla]

Why the toe-kick? Plans sound good. I dunno if you wanna plunk down $$$s for a Domino, but I no longer dado my plywood since I got the Domino. With plywood thicknesses varying weekly, it can be painful at times.

Keep in mind that your house "ain't gonna be perfectly plumb, ain't gonna have 90 degree corners, ain't gonna be level, and in general ain't gonna be straight" so plan for that when you build your perfectly straight and plumb and sharp cornered cabinets. :) You'll want to be able to scribe your face frame and/or moldings or set back your cabinets walls a bit to allow room to scribe.

[Chris Padilla]

I didn't see a dimension for the shelf depth (2 feet?) but Mark is right. You may need to laminate two sheets of 3/4" plywood together to avoid serious bowing of the shelves. You might be able to get away with gluing a piece of maple along the front (and maybe rear) of the shelf that will help stiffen it up.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

First all all, thank you to everyone for helping.

Scott, I have access to A1, A2, shop, G1S, and maybe premium grade plywood. I am thinking of using A1/A2.

Mark, I have been worrying about staining these cabinets a dark color. That's the step that I am the most ignorant about, so I have been reading. It seems that SW Sher-wood BAC stain is good with maple. I still need to visit the local SW store with a cabinet front and ask if they can match it. However, if you think of another species that is easier to stain, let me know please.

Chris, I measured the space where the cabinets are to be installed. The width ranges from 74 3/4" to 75 3/8". I give myself 1/2" on both sides at the largest opening. The height is suprisingly close to 8' tall, but I am leaving 1 1/2" for good measure. Domino eh? Is it strong enough without the dadoes and glue?

The depth of these cabinets are 23", back and FF included.

James, YES! My wife says I can get a slider for these projects (there are more she is dreaming up!). I am having trouble with spending such a large sum on my hobby. I feel irresponsible somehow. Weird! I think I enjoy the challenge of making do with what I have.

Mark, I thought about the sag issue. In the design, there is a strip of 3/4" x 2" maple at the back of each shelf for support. The face frame strip will also provide some support as well. I used Woodbin's Sagulator to calculate the sag over the span of 48", 3/4 maple plywood, 2" FF without the 2" support bracket in the back. Load was set at 30 lbs at center of shelf. The total sag is 0.01" and 0.003" per foot. That's acceptable. We don't have anything that weighs more than 10 lbs. At most, there will be two items per shelf, so I thought my design is adequate.

[scott vroom]

I'd lose the toe kick and widen the bottom FF rail to 3 or 4 inches.

[Chris Padilla]

I've been using A1 maple plywood for quite a while and now my wife wants the next maple project a dark chocolately brown (I have A LOT of maple to use up). I will do more experiments this weekend but here are some things to think about:

Maple can blotch and badly at times when staining. Be sure to run samples on BOTH your hardwood and plywood as they could look different with the same stain. Here is what I am going to do to minimize blotching and get uniform color:

Sand to 180 grit. Don't be afraid to switch out the sandpaper often to get fresh tooth so you don't end up burnishing the small closed pores of maple.
Spray the stain. I have a couple of stains I'm going to try. Past experiments involved a gel stain (Varathane Gel Stain in Dark Walnut) in combination with an NGR (non grain raising; Behlen Solar Lux Stain in Hickory) dye and while got a color my wife liked, it was too complicated for me to apply to get uniform appearance.
Now I have a can of the Varathane in Dark Walnut...a liquid I can spray. Now I have two liquids I can spray and hopefully I'll find the "goldilocks" color for Mrs. Chris. :)

[Mark Bolton]

Here I run MLC and SW BAC, I would agree with Chris that with a dark color, and those large panels, spraying may be your best bet. My only warning is if you spray setup isnt spot on you have to move fast. For me at least spraying BAC you have to fly, better to have two people (to wipe) but thats just my experience. If youve ever seen a commercial spray stain setup they will have one guy shooting and then an army (half dozen or so) wipers come flying in like ants. You dont have much time. Thats why I was suggesting trying a fairly large sample. Perhaps even a 2x4 piece of ply after youve gotten your color close with a stain match.

I like MLC stains much better than the BAC but another local shop is just the opposite. I have a hard time with BAC and errant wiping marks which annoy me. I dont seem to have that problem with MLC as much.

With regards to the shelves, I am not an over-engineer-er myself but shelves is one of the places I tend to. Regardless of what you "think" you will have, there is no telling what you, or someone at a later date, will put on them. Plus, to me at least, on a case of that size the shelves just look better when they are thick. Just my 0.02.

I have personally had 12" deep x 36" wide birch ply shelves with a 1.5" applied edge both sides sag far more than the sagulator states. I think the sagulator is a good baseline but its not always the gospel. Of course if your shelves are fixed (glued/fastened to the sides) that makes a big difference.

The only other thing that has nothing to do with the construction is have you given any thought to lighting? Those cases are extremely deep and going to be dark. Of course maybe your going for the shadow box effect with a back that disappears in the shadows but anything you put towards the rear of those boxes is going to get lost in the dark. Light cast from out front will likely only reach in a short ways. Just a thought.

[roger wiegand]

If you want it to look like mahogany just use mahogany and skip the whole drama and uncertainty of staining. I was down at Boulter plywood in Somerville a couple of weeks ago and they had some absolutely spectacular figured mahogany plywood. I just couldn't figure out what Id do with it if I bought it, but it sure was tempting.

[John TenEyck]

2 ft deep shelves seems at least 6" too deep to me. You must have some huge stuff to need shelves that deep. And, as mentioned, w/o lighting you won't see anything at the back. I'd seriously consider if you need shelve that deep. If you do, do you need them all to be that deep? Why not a combination, wider at the bottom, narrower ones at the top. Or even a deep shadow box or two in a cabinet of narrower shelves/spaces.

I've used SW's BAC wiping stain, and I really, really like it. I was using white oak which doesn't blotch, so I can't say how it will work on maple. I put it on with a foam brush, and some of the panels were like 2' x 6' and had no trouble wiping it off w/o streaks or with it drying too fast. SW tried to match the color of another piece and failed twice, so I hope your local SW folks are better. I finally mixed the two failures and added Transtint dye (pre diluted in acetone) to it to get the correct color. And it's good that you are going to spray your topcoat, because you have to with the BAC stains. There's essentially no binder in it so it will pull right up if you try to brush or wipe on a sealer or topcoat.

John

[Erik Christensen]

if you have the spray equipment and this is not going to be in full sun i'd look at water based dye - i just finished a large kitchen with maple ply with a mahogany dye - management is happy so it is all good.

a second vote for the domino for case assembly - i can do it all solo till the cases are assembled - it is a lot easier to put precise domino's in a large case part than it is to try to muscle the piece thru the TS with a dado blade

[Wakahisa Shinta]

SW said that SW BAC is only available to contractor with a spray booth that has been certified by the state of CA, not to consumer like myself. I asked about the wiping stain, same answer. So, BAC is out! I am disappointed!

Mark, what is MLC?

So, I am back to the drawing board. My options are using dye and spray or General Finish gel stains and wipe. It seems wiping is a lot of work and result might be not as good as spray. But can dye get mahogany dark? I have sprayed Transtint dye in EtOH before, but not anything as dark as this project calls for. I do have an Earlex.

Lighting. I considered that. We have recess lights two feet from the edge of the cabinets. There are existing electrical outlets at the back walls that will be covered once cabinets are installed. I have considered running romex from existing outlet to the top just in case we want to install fixtures in the future. If I do, they would most likely be of the type attach to the top edge of the cabinet case, cascading light down to the bottom. I thought this would work better because the shelves are not transparent.

Back to the shelves and sag. The items are large, but not overly heavy. For example, a hand engraved copper dish acquired on a trip to India, about 14” x 14”. Not much weight, just size. A Japanese Kabuki theatre mask for instance. We don’t want to cramp them into small spaces. Instead, we want some negative space around them. It’s my wife’s creative arts background.

Roger, mahogany plywood is not something I have seen around here. I imagine it is to be very expensive, no?

I have access to maple, birch, oak, cherry, sapele, and beech; A-1 grade. Now, I have no idea what to do with sapele or beech plywood. Never work with them before! I like the texture of beech plywood though; so smooth!

I will try to see if I can borrow or steal a Domino. I am afraid this is another tool I want!

Scott, why loose the toe kick? You mean to make the bottom rail FF go all the way to the floor?

Oh, here is how the cabinets fit into the existing space of the room. To the very right is a large, sliding door leading to the patio. There are three large windows on that walls also. It is a really, really bright room!
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[scott vroom]

Scott, why loose the toe kick? You mean to make the bottom rail FF go all the way to the floor?

Yes. Personal preference.

[John TenEyck]

You can turn maple plywood black with Transtint dye if you want, so mahogany is no problem. Here's a photo of northern white ash I colored with a shellac/Transtint toner, plus a gel stain to get some darker color in the pores:

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To get maple ply as dark as mahogany I would probably use the same shellac toner approach, to avoid blotching. Make some samples using various approaches and see which works best for you.

John

[Chris Padilla]

I'm with Scott. Toe-kicks are for kitchen and bathroom cabinets and they look funny anywhere else. If you want that raised look, put those cabinets on legs or cut an arched valance of some kind but a toe-kick just looks strange in your setting.

[Chris Padilla]

+1 on the Transtint added to shellac: works beautifully. You can add layer after layer after layer until you achieve the color you like. It will get darker and darker and darker. You just sneak up on it. I would practice on a 2x4 sheet of plywood to get the hang of it but it is pretty cool the control you have.

[Andrew Gold]

I'd second the suggestion to go a bit shallower, two reasons. The deep shelves end up swallowing things. Secondly, I like reveals in casework as I find it's a good way to deal with the out of square/plumb/etc always found in older homes.

Meaning, if you step the cabinets back from the fireplace (maybe 4-6") you'll find it's easier to deal with the inconsistencies you're going to find. It will also serve to highlight the fireplace, which I think is a good idea.

I'd also suggest using something thicker than 1/4" ply for the back, as in wide cabinets I think you can see a bit of wave in the thinner material.

Either way, that's an ambitious first casework project... best of luck!

[Mark Bolton]

MLC is Ml Campbell. Your going to have the same problem with MLC Id imagine. There are some distributors that will sell it to individuals/hobbyists but MLC doesnt want that. There is a thread on a professional forum at the moment that SW is going crazy with a lot of things. Im glad I dont use them much. MLC is owned by them but hopefully will be left alone.

John will get you on track with the finish. He does some super impressive stuff at least from what Ive seen here. Your in good hands.

A couple other things, with regards to the recessed lighting they wont do squat in shelves that deep. Its fine if you dont mind the shelves being dark by all means do it but they wont cast any light back into the shelves. Nor will some goofy track lighting or something on the ceiling out infront of it. Youll just get a lot of very pronounced shadows.

Another thing to consider as well is that its a no-no to bury a box in a wall (rendering it, and the wire nuts inside inaccessible). I dont know how much you care about code and such but thats just the way it is. If I were doing this on a job I would open those boxes into the shelves and put a box extender and a blank cover on them. This would most definitely be a good idea anyway in the event you do realize you wish you'd went with some lighting. At least you'll have a power source.

[Tom Ewell]

Agree with Erik, I switched over to aniline years ago and one can mix and control flavor of color to suit most any desire.
Milder mix of dye can be sprayed in several coats to creep up on the intensity you're looking for. With too many coats, some dyes will get to almost black with just a hint of the tone.
Water soluble is less affected by light than alcohol types but the water stuff raises the grain a bit more.
Color purity with dye is nicer than any pigmented stuff I've encountered.
If blotch control is a worry, Charles Neil's formula is pretty good.
WB top coats have come a long way over the years, most are cross linkable and the short recoat/dry times are invaluable.

The wife brought home this painted black over white primer plant stand, stripped and refinished by wet wiping on Moser's Honduras Brown mahogany dye (two coats I believe) and sprayed on a few coats WB lacquer. It sits next to a south facing sliding glass doo rwith no apparent fading after many a year.
The picture (not very good) shows the tone well but in natural light, the intensity is darker. Not sure of the wood species but tight grained with tone similar to birch.
Open grains like red oak, if no blotch control and unfilled can come out crazy looking with any colorant but the dyes still look better to my eye. Poplar is even fun to dye, I look specifically for the green heartwood because the grain emulates much more expensive species.
I've done large cases, raised panels etc. with dye, spray on let it dry add more color if desired, let dry and get going with topcoats. If you plan ahead, most of the finish work can be done prior to assembly.

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[Wakahisa Shinta]

I spoke to a local MLC (I figured out what MLC stands for with Google) distributor. They will match stain if I bring in sample! Sweet!

So, taken everyone’s advice into consideration, here is the new plan:

Material: A-1 grade ¾” maple plywood for case, ½” maple ply for back, ¾” maple for FF. (I can use Birch too and save ~25%)

Base: OSB panel on top of concrete foundation. 2x3 frame on which the cabinets sit.

No more toe kick. No more dadoes. Can borrow a Domino for 1 day. I have to buy supply (i.e. dominos)

1. Build and level the base
2. Rip and cross cut sheets to dimensions
3. Rip and cross cut the face frame, leave some wider to account for dry wall unevenness.
4. Mark and cut loose mortise for the domino. This is going to be interesting. Spacing between dominos?
5. Mask glue joints with blue painter tape
6. Stain with Transtin/shellac or MLC, spray application.
7. Finish with satin poly, spray application
8. Assemble carcass, nail back in place after check for squareness. Cut opening for electrical outlets. Mark, good point!
9. Install carcass
10. Attach face frame, adjusted for dry wall uneveness. Pin nail and yellow glue. I am hoping the pin nail won’t crack the finish on the FF.

I am wondering:
A. How many dominos per shelf, left and right?
B. Is it better to assemble the case without the back before finishing? It’s a rather big case!

New rendering. Inset ~6" from front of fireplace. Toe kick gone! Shelf depth is now 16".
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[Chris Padilla]

Looks much nicer! :)

I like to put dominoes every 3-4" and I usually start 1 - 1 1/4" from each end and roughly divide. I'd use the 5 or 6 mm domino (whichever there is the most of) for 3/4" plywood. Also don't fret about getting the domino in the dead center. Just use the setting that gets you close enough. Practice on some scrap to get the feel of it but it is basically a much more awesome biscuit cutter. :)

Finish it whatever stages you can handle it. Just mask areas if you intend to glue and don't be afraid to screw stuff together or use screws as clamps if they will be hidden. They'll make life easier.

[Jim Andrew]

I worked at a shop one time, when they sold a really big job in about the biggest new house in the area, and they struggled with dyes and stains on cherry.
When they finally got the stain samples accepted by the customer, it looked exactly like walnut. I thought, why didn't they just use walnut? If they get a scratch in the finish, wouldn't it be much easier to touch up if you could just sand it down and refinish an area?

[Mark Wooden]

On a cabinet of that size you should use 1/2" for the backs it, will be much stiffer.
Staining either maple or birch ply will be blotchy unless you seal it with coat or two of shellac first- make lots of large samples!
You will have to double thickness the shelves, and I'd make them so they can be flipped over from time to time.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Shelf depth is now 16".

Much better dimension, IMO. Except - you actually mean 15-3/4", right? Gets you 3 sections out of a 4 x 8.

LIke this newer design much better, BTW.

[Sam Murdoch]

I like it better too. One change I would make still is to raise the base up to about 5-1/2" +/-. Build it as drawn but leave the cabinet face frames from touching the floor - at least 1/2" up - then apply a one piece base board maybe with a shoe molding (or not) and/or maybe with a trim detail at the top of the base board. This looks more finished and makes the setting of the cabinet on the floor and any leveling that might be required easier. A similar treatment at the top with a piece of crown or a more simple applied trim (could be just a flat board) creates a shadow effect and again allows for easier setting the cabinet into the opening and looks more finished.

If your opening is 86" (for example) you can build the cabinets to 84", mount them on leveler feet or shims or just some blocking at the bottom and leave the cabs off the ceiling approx. 1/2", then apply the finished moldings top and bottom. Allow the top and bottom rails to be wide enough that when you apply a base and a top fascia the reveal of the flat of the cabinet rails behind are equal to the width of the stiles. Just one approach.

Here is a photo of a similar set up preinstall showing what I mean about build the cabs off the floor. In this case the base board then came across the entire run of cabinets as one piece and the backs were 1/2" bead board set into the cabinets after install. By the way - I agree with the idea of using 1/2" backs. Will add a great deal of structural integrity to these big cabinets. Simply overlay the backs on the cabs and screw in place (after finishing).

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Good luck. This will be a rewarding project.

[Phil Barrett]

Sounds like a fun, meaty project.

I second (third?) the thought of engineering shelves for significantly more load capacity. What if you guys find something like a marble bust that you just must have on the shelf? A second 3/4 x 2 strip on the front brings the load capacity up to 100 lbs center weight. Not much extra effort now but a whole load of "not fun" retro fitting.

[scott vroom]

I agree with Phil on the beefier shelf front edge. Not only will it provide more load bearing capacity, but IMO will enhance the cabinet aesthetic. I typically edge my shelving with 1.25 - 1.5" tall hardwood.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

As it turns out, 15 3/4" depth isn't going to cut it for the AV equipment, specifically the receiver that is 18 3/4" in depth. Also, my wife likes the deeper shelves after we did a mock up with some scrap plywood I have lying around in the shop. In the end, we compromised and made the shelf depth 19 3/4" to accommodate the receiver.

I took Sam's advice and re-designed the bottom rail, raising it to 6", and incorporate the existing base board into the design for a more built-in look. The top rail is also wider to accommodate a smaller molding at top. The reveal is the same size as the rest of the FF. I tried to model moldings in Sketchup, but my skill isn't there. Don't laugh!

The long shelves are now double laminated for more strength. The edging is 2 1/4" thick. I took away the back brace support. Instead, I will nail the shelves to the 1/2" ply back. I played with the Sagulator, using 100 lbs center load...0.01" total sag spanning 48".

We spent Saturday morning with color samples and swatches that my wife has collected. She has a new plan. My apology to everyone who has contributed advice with finishing! Since our bamboo floor is a medium dark shade called "Java (http://www.calibamboo.com/bamboo-solid-click-flooring-hd-java.html)" and our walls will be a very pale green called "Guilford green", white cabinetry looks pretty good. So, I am now researching how to paint maple plywood with white paint! There are excellent discussions here.

Due to the depth of the shelves and everyone's advice, I will be installing LED strip lighting. They are not very difficult to install. Time to dig out the soldiering equipment.

Many thanks for the lively discussion this far!

Here is another JPG:
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[Phil Barrett]

I'm laughing about the design changes - been there. Want to bet there are more to come?

Your SU skills look fine to me. Remember, it's just a tool for visualizing and planning. I'd say you're doing ok.

I love LED strip lighting, it is so flexible - imagination is the limit. check out environmentallights.com - they have some really great low profile channels with diffusers. I got one that only needs a 1/4" deep dado for flush mount. Did all my closets with strips that are controlled by a door switch. Great for under cabinet lighting, too.

[Bill Adamsen]

Didn't see any suggestions for using pre-finished maple plywood in both 3/4 and 1/2, which is what I use for sides and backs. In my area that a frequently used/spec'd product and readily available at the specialty plywood distribution. Price - perhaps because of the volume - is about the same as unfinished.

[Sam Murdoch]

I'm laughing about the design changes - been there. Want to bet there are more to come?

Your SU skills look fine to me. Remember, it's just a tool for visualizing and planning. I'd say you're doing ok.

I love LED strip lighting, it is so flexible - imagination is the limit. check out environmentallights.com - they have some really great low profile channels with diffusers. I got one that only needs a 1/4" deep dado for flush mount. Did all my closets with strips that are controlled by a door switch. Great for under cabinet lighting, too.

It's called the evolution of design. What a great resource we have here in Sawmill Creek. We used to have to do this all in the caverns of our own minds and/or with magazines and books but without the out loud discussion and feedback. I love the internets :cool:.

I like the changes (of course :)) and I agree that your SU skills are more than great for the task at hand.

Keep it going.
___________________

And about pre fin maple plywood - I love it and like it too blended with painted face frames. If this look will work for you I say do it. The time and work saved and the quality of the finish far outweighs the nearly negligible extra cost.

[Kent A Bathurst]

It's called the evolution of design.

Not at my place on the space-time contnuum. Here it is called "G%#&*% - I forgot the ________".

[rudy de haas]

hi:

One idea you might want to consider is combining a a peice of hardwood under each shelf as an anti-sag measure with lighting. LEd strips (I''ve bought several from https://www.superbrightleds.com/cat/flexible-strips-and-bars/ ) are quite flat -they are ribbons about 1/4" high/thick and 3/4" wide). Stick one behind your support strip to use it as a valance and you have hidden, dimmable, lighting on each shelf. Since LEDs produce very little heat this is both safer and more efficient that traditional solutions -and it looks better too!

Note that, because you want some AV gear on the bottom shelf, you will have to bring power into each cabinet anyway - maybe a cable strip with take-offs for each shelf can be tucked into the least visible back corners?

[Myk Rian]

recessed 2’ into the wall
Is it a load bearing wall? 2'?

[Wakahisa Shinta]

Phil, thanks for the link to Environmental light.com. I have only had time to briefly browsed through their website, but their products look promising. How did you do the electrical for your closet? I have wall outlets at the back of the cabinet. They are on a 15 Amp circuit.

Bill, I'll run the prefinished maple ply by the interior decorator, my wife.

Rudy, I was looking at LED strips from LEDwholesalers on Amazon. The 3M backing tape allows easy sticking to the underside of the shelves or the FF. The strips are 16.5 ft and can be cut every 2". They aren't as fancy as those diffused aluminum channel LED from Environmental Light, but they provide illumination. I can use two 16.5-ft strips per set of cabinets, powered by one 60W power supply. I'm going to look closer at Phil's recommendation and decide.

I am looking at power strip from Tripp Lite. They have a 12-outlet, 15-amp strip that is 36-in length. It might be a bit over kill, but it can be mounted in the back, against the underside of the shelf, out of sight.

Myk, I meant 2 inches. :) The back wall is load bearing. The space these cabinets are going into is designed as TV nooks. They are 24" deep.

If it wasn't for this discussion, I would have gone with my original design, not knowing what else I don't know. It's always good to learn!

Question: for painting, is shop grade maple ply good enough? What is considered "paint grade" ply anyway? I asked a person at the local lumber yard and he didn't know what paint grade is. Maybe I didn't word my question right.

[Steve Connelly]

You mentioned a/v equipment, if you have an elaborate stereo system, you may wish to provide a false back or channel to hide all the wires and electrical...

Steve

[Ian Wormsbecker]

Have you considered making the bottom few shelves deeper (ie: flush with the fireplace) and the top ones inset more. Right now it just looks like bookshelves to me rather than built-in furniture.

Something a little more like this:
http://homebuilding.thefuntimesguide.com/images/blogs/built-in_bookshelves_fireplace14.JPG


Ian

[Wakahisa Shinta]

Evolution of design as Sam said with Ian's suggestion:
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I think I might put doors in the bottom cabinets. That is a new woodworking skill I have no experience with!

[Kent A Bathurst]

Evolution of design as Sam said with Ian's suggestion:
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I think I might put doors in the bottom cabinets. That is a new woodworking skill I have no experience with!

Design is looking better all the time - looks great.

On the doors - Yeah, So what? Everyone else here was in the same boat until we did our first cabinet doors. :D :D

You'll be fine. I think the doors would be a great addition.

[Chris Padilla]

Now that you're painting this...go with poplar and/or birch hard and plywoods. I think they should be much cheaper than maple. You want a nice tight-grained and small pore type of wood for painting. Maple fits this bill nicely but tends to cost more.

I like Target Coatings EM6000 line:

http://targetcoatings.com/products/pigmented-top-coats-interior/em6500-seriespigmented-spray-lacquer/

[Mark Bolton]

If youve got access to MLC now and want to run waterbourne you can run their pigmented white. Nice stuff to say the least.

[Mark Bolton]

Evolution of design as Sam said with Ian's suggestion:
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I think I might put doors in the bottom cabinets. That is a new woodworking skill I have no experience with!


Hate to send you into another iteration but... If this were me, I would bump those bases out slightly from the wall (depth) with pilasters left and right and a counter surface above the bases. Then I would flush the upper cases to the wall with molding to match the rest of your house. It would look a lot more intentional to me. But thats just me.

[Sam Murdoch]

Hate to send you into another iteration but... If this were me, I would bump those bases out slightly from the wall (depth) with pilasters left and right and a counter surface above the bases. Then I would flush the upper cases to the wall with molding to match the rest of your house. It would look a lot more intentional to me. But thats just me.


He'll do that on his next one Mark :) - though he does have Ian's link to inspire him (with a few more mods of course).

The next discussion will be about building these as base cabinets with upper bookcases that sit on top of the bases rather than full height cabinets

AND - designing the process so that install between 2 walls is relatively easy. May need to start a build thread.

[Kent A Bathurst]

The next discussion will be about building these as base cabinets with upper bookcases that sit on top of the bases rather than full height cabinets

That is absolutely what I would do / have done. Major components built in the shop. Eat the elephant one bite at a time.



....designing the process so that install between 2 walls is relatively easy.

1. Find the narrowest dimension between the two walls - both sides of fireplace. Near the fron ot the nooks, near the back of the nooks - find the smallest number.
2. Design details to fit inside that dimension, while allowing for a "proper" face frame - aesthetics and room for scribing/waste.
3. Build the bases, and install them.
4. Build hte upper cabinets, and install them
5. Scribe FF, install.

[Harry Hagan]

I tried to model moldings in Sketchup, but my skill isn't there. Don't laugh!


Wakahisa,

You'll find a variety of moldings at the 3D Warehouse: https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/search.html?q=wood+molding&backendClass=entity

[Wakahisa Shinta]

I am refining the design after carefully measures the nooks to get the smallest dimension. I am not sure about one detail of the new design. I think there is something off about the bottom cab top rail. It's 1 1/4" wide. I put a 3" wide rail in there, but it didn't look right with the top being 1 1/2" thick. So, I reduced it to 1 1/4" wide. Visually, it looks wider due to the 1 1/2" thick top, making the whole thing 2 3/4" thick effectively.

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So, I am posting picture and ask this: Any recommendation on the width of rail and stile?

I've read some of the threads on SMC about this particular topic. It's a rather subjective matter from what I can tell.

Harry, thanks for the URL! I got some of the profiles from there.

Mark, if I keep adding details, I will never get this thing built. Besides, I think those details might be a bit beyond my skill level right now. I have a lot of this type of projects lining up for our home, so I would try it once I am more confident I can do this half way decent. :)

Got these this evening: I can't wait to start building! This will be the first project of this type. Yep! Those top four sheets are bead board. They are expensive, but I think they will dress up the cab and hutch a bit.
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[Sam Murdoch]

A view of the front of the cabinet would be helpful to see the proportions. I'm thinking that your OK as you plan.

From what I can see the change I would make would be to build the base cabinet with the 2-1/4" to 3" frame and then add a 3/4" top with a 1-1/2" edge. Don't double up the top. Add the cove or not if it looks good. I find that 3" wide stiles is visually too big in such narrow cabinets unless you incorporate a bead or some other detail that reduces the flat. 2-1/4" might be a better proportion - on the base cabs will help to support the doors - on the uppers you could go as small as 1-1/2".

The cabinet boxes should be built at least 1/2" less wide than your smallest opening. The face frames and the top are cut to fit. Make the stiles run by the rails in all cases so that you can easily scribe to fit without running into the end grain of the rails. This will look normal too.

Another detail that I might add (for ease of construction and installation ) is a full bottom on the upper cabs. When you place it into the opening on top of the c-top it will be very easy to screw through the c-top from under to secure the upper cabs to the base. Even if you are using a solid wood c-top there is a way to build this to allow for wood movement and a very secure upper to lower setting. NOT necessary of course but this is the way I would do it unless for some reason you want the full depth top. If you are interested I can draw you a construction detail.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

Sam, thank you. Here is more pictures:
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I eliminate doubling up of the cab top, add a full bottom to the hutch, and reduced the width of the cab's top rail a bit.

I would like to see a construction detail if you can spare the time. It would help a lot. A wise woodworker once told me, "Measure thrice, cut once."

[Kent A Bathurst]

Another detail that I might add (for ease of construction and installation ) is a full bottom on the upper cabs. When you place it into the opening on top of the c-top it will be very easy to screw through the c-top from under to secure the upper cabs to the base.

Another way to flay this particular feline: No bottom for the upper cab. But - have the back extend 3" - 4" below the bottom of the top cab carcass. Let it overlap the botom cab, and then fire 3 - 4 screws thru the inner top of teh lower cab backs. Never be seen.

Either way is fine. IT all depends on what you want it to look like. I forget what the materials are, but for example, if it was a varnish hardwood top on teh bottom cab, I would want that to show all the way back. ALso - adding a bottom to the upper cab leaves a 3/4" "ledge" that might be OK, or you might think it is annoying - all is good, just depends on what you prefer.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

I had plan to attach the hutch to the cab top with dowel/domino, then screw through a cleat at the top into the wall stud. Plug the countersink hole and call it a day. Too much work?

OR

Attach the hutch to the cab top from below before permanently fix the top to the bottom cab. Install the hutch + top combo, then secure to stud.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I had plan to attach the hutch to the cab top with dowel/domino, then screw through a cleat at the top into the wall stud. Plug the countersink hole and call it a day. Too much work?

OR

Attach the hutch to the cab top from below before permanently fix the top to the bottom cab. Install the hutch + top combo, then secure to stud.

All fine. Too much work for me - alignment of the dowel holes - but hey - whatever you feel best with. The top is not going to want to move, so just a bit of mechanical assistance to keep in in place.

Also - I think it will be a lot easier to install the two assemblies independently than as one pre-assem unit.

YOu want to hit the studs, as you realize. I cannot tell hom much room you willhave betweent eh top and the ceiling........I would try to just drop a couple shims down behind,a nd fire screws thru them into the studs, countersunk and plugged. You don't need a lot of anchor force - unless you forsee little kids trying to climb the cabinets.

[Mark Bolton]

Wakahisa, you know what you could do for fun? Send your SU file to anyone interested and see what they come up with..

[Sam Murdoch]

I'm with Kent "Either way is fine. IT all depends on what you want it to look like."If you are using a nice solid wood top (or painted top for that matter) you might prefer to run it all the way back for a nice deep counter - kind of a hutch style. If you want the uppers to be more bookcase style the raised bottom as I illustrate here adds another detail and good solid structure at the bottom of the uppers and as they sit on the countertop.

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YOU CAN SEE THAT I JUST DREW THE STAGE SET. This is just a sketch to show the ends without regard to the middle/interior of the cabinetry and I am showing the plywood sides as unfinished (I hope for more clarity.)

AND to be clear - this application is more important when installing a solid wood top. The top just sits under the molding and is allowed some space behind to move. This means you don't need to do a deep glue up and that the cabinet above has no impact on restricting the movement of the top.

If you are using a plywood top there is no reason not to run it all the way to the back (as I describe below). The important consideration there is that, when fitting between 2 walls, the part of the c-top that is covered by the upper cabinet should be kept at the same width at the cabinet and that only the exposed wall to wall section at the front would need to be full width.

The bottom rail of the upper above is set at 1-1/2" with a 2" stile. Looks a lot bigger than that in these close ups.

Alternatively:

I have often added a clear finished veneered top screwed directly into the upper cabinet sides with the upper back overlaying and screwed into the back edge of the c-top. This entire assembly than is just placed on top of the base cabinet and screwed into place going through the base cabinet upper spreaders into the c-top.
SOOO many ways to "flay this particular feline".

Install between the walls requires fore thought. Loose face frames or at least loose stiles or some other solutions but it must be considered how you will do it.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Loose face frames or at least loose stiles or some other solutions but it must be considered how you will do it.

Mos Def.

The FF sticks get custom-fitted after carcasses in and anchored.

Stiles scribed and cleaned up and installed. Then rails custom cut for their specific spot.

I use a little glue [so it doesn't squeeze out] and headless pins to hold them in alignment until the glue sets up. If you have and or like a plate joiner ["neither" in my case] this is a great place to use it. You probably need to make the custs in the carcass sides before install, and then locate the cuts in teh FF parts to match after you get them fitted.