What do I need for saw sharpening?

[Harold Burrell]

OK...I kind of know already. I mean, I already know that I will need files...and a saw set...and some kind of vice. But I do not know the specifics.

So...I come to you all.

I am actually wanting to take a shot at sharpening dovetail saws, to start with. I even want to "re-do" them somewhat. You know, reducing the TPI on one to even 9 maybe. So...the question is...what do I need? What kind of files? Where do I get them? What about the saw vice? Can I rig up something in my leg vice? What is a decent saw-set? And, again, where do I get them?

Something to keep in mind...I don't have much $$$...nor would I want to spend a lot on something that I may never get good at, nor even like doing.

So...???

[David Weaver]

I'll defer on the saw set (I use a 42x and maybe there is something better that costs less)

If you're just going to do rip and crosscut saws, you can get by OK with the 6 slim and 6 x slim files at home depot as long as they are mexican nicholsons.
* bahcos are a large step up in quality, but you have to buy them effectively in boxes of 10 (which isn't cheap, even though the per file cost isn't too expensive)
* bahcos don't come in xx slim taper in the US, so if you have a dovetail saw that you want 4 xx or 5 xx slim, you'll have to buy another brand of file from a woodworking supplier or anywhere else you can find one. Just make sure it's not a generic indian or chinese file.

You can use two sprung boards in any vise instead of getting a saw vise. The only catch is on really low depth saws, the boards can't be that big vertically unless they have a cutout for a backsaw spine. The boards can be beveled near the top to give you clearance for a filing hand.

There are various other gadgets telling you what rake and fleam you're holding your file at, but they are not necessary. It's more important that you file teeth to an even height, and on the saws with very small teeth, even that really isn't that critical. It is important that the teeth are sharp, though.

Oh yeah, you'll need a mill file of some sort to joint saw teeth, too.

[Judson Green]

I'm no expert and will leave the real advise for the others with more experience, but a few of the of the things I'd recommend is light lots of it and magnifying glasses/readers, like from a drug store.

I'll post a photo of my very cheesy shop made saw vise in a few.

300238 300239 300241 300242

As you can see I'm even too lazy/cheep to add a hinge, but this still works way better than the old cast iron one I have. I should increase the bevel, note the blacked out area in the last photo.

[ken hatch]

Harold,

Books and videos can get you started but....damn there is always that but....Doing a hands on with someone can shorten the learning curve more than you would expect. Hands on you can pick up the small things i.e. how high should the saw be, how to mark the plate and hold the file to get rid of all the extra paraphernalia (there is no need for guide blocks or jigs), and what to look for as you sharpen. BTW, you would be surprised at how high the saw plate should be, putting it just under your arm pit with good light and there is no need for magnifying, just good readers.

David posted the basics plus you will need handles for the files. None of it is too expensive and none of it is too hard to learn, and the best part is even if the job isn't perfect the saw will out perform a dull one. I forgot to add a small Arkansas stone to stone the tooth line when finished and to correct any tendency to cut off line.

Mark Hamel with Bad Axe does a hands on four times a year, it is well worth the time and money.

ken

[David Weaver]

Yeah, either handles for the glue or pieces of pre-drilled scrap to attach to the tang.

I agree on the height. If you have a large machinist vise attached to a bench and slip two sprung boards in the jaws, the height should be pretty close to where you want to be.

Magic marker for marking teeth works fine

[bridger berdel]

You can hammer set the teeth. Use a small flat ended punch like a nail set and a light weight hammer. Lay the saw flat on it's side and give each tooth a tap in it's respective direction. Let the weight of the hammer determine the force of the strike and set the punch to the same spot on each tooth- just below the point- and the result should be very consistent.

I aim for the minimum set for the saw to cut smoothly on most of my saws, but I also work mostly in dry wood

[Rich Harkrader]

I highly recommend watching this three part series about saw sharpening, done by Thomas Lie-Nielsen. This was a HUGE help to me when I started learning to sharpen saws.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F72FBPfrgDE&list=PL5BE69422F61CEE64

He uses a shop made saw vise in this video, so I made a similar one, using this blog entry as a guide:

http://www.closegrain.com/2011/06/building-lie-nielsen-saw-vise.html

I use this for all smaller saws. I learned about what Paul Sellers calls a saw chock for longer saws. Basically just a long strip of wood with a saw kerf most of the way through it. Put your saw into the kerf and then put the chock into your bench vise. Make sure the chock is thicker than your saw handle.

I have and like the saw files made by Grobet and sold by Lee Valley.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=69854&cat=1,320,43072,43089,69854

A good bastard mill file is needed for jointing. You can make a holder from a block of wood to ensure than you're jointing at 90* pretty easily.

As for saw sets, I have the pair that Lee Valley sells, and have honestly never used them. It's far more common for me to want to remove set rather than add it. I have an old saw that I'm working on where I'm having to completely redo the teeth. I'll need to set them then, and that will be the first time I'll use these.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=32956&cat=1,320,43072,43086&ap=1

I have one of those hiking headlamps that's adjustable. I use that when I'm sharpening saws. You'll also need a sharpie or marker. I actually prefer using a colored marker instead of a black one. You mark the teeth so you can more easily tell where you've already sharpened in case you lose your place or get interrupted.

[Tom M King]

I would suggest not starting by changing the tooth count on a dovetail saw, or at least not one that you like. Get an old beater handsaw, and learn the feel for the file. It's much easier to file one correctly, than to correct some error -especially to start with. Google " handsaw sharpening treatise", and don't skip any steps.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Paul Sellers makes a simple but effective Saw Chock.


Take a look.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E06aewpmSyQ

[Judson Green]

A while back I changed the TPI of a panel saw. First I jointed the teeth clean off. Then made a simple cad drawing (basically tick marks where I wanted the file to be) and printed it out full size, taping together 2 or 3 sheets of paper. Then folded it over the saw, taping in place. Filed through the paper only a few strokes for each tick mark, just enough to have a clear groove for the file. Removed the paper and settle in for a ton of filing.

Worked for me but more experienced folks might have a better way. Thought I had some photos but mustn't have taken any.

[David Weaver]

The few times I've filed new teeth (which I intentionally try to avoid), I have also put a paper line template on the plate to start the cut. It's much easier to make an initial file cut into paper (which subsequently goes into the saw plate) than it is to accurately make it in the saw plate to start. The paper keeps the file from moving along the length of the saw plate.

I say I intentionally try to avoid it because it usually burns a couple of files to do it on a carpenter's saw, and makes for sore fingers (for me).

[Stewie Simpson]

Hi Harold. Andy from the U.K has an excellent instructional video on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-_MF2Mnxwc

[Judson Green]

Harold, I don't know if you've got a way to make a paper template (cad program) but I'd be pleased as punch to print one out and send it to you if ya need it.

[Harold Burrell]

Hey, thanks all for the input! I really appreciate it.




Harold, I don't know if you've got a way to make a paper template (cad program) but I'd be pleased as punch to print one out and send it to you if ya need it.

Judson,

Seriously? Yeah! That would be awesome!

[Judson Green]

PM me your pertinence

[Stewie Simpson]

Here we go Harold. Take your pick.

http://www.blackburntools.com/articles/saw-tooth-spacing-templates/index.html

http://www.oocities.org/plybench/saw_teeth.pdf

[Casey Gooding]

I can't add too much to what has already been said. Retoothing is a real pain unless you have a retoother. Not that plenty of people don't have great luck with it, but I'm not getting rid of my retoother any time soon.
I would say the hardest thing to find is good files. The Mexican Stanley files are too soft. I've had the teeth fold over after just two passes. Grobet is a definite improvement, though I find them very brittle. The teeth tend to break off rather than fold. I asked Lee Valley customer service about that, and they basically said I was doing it wrong (I've talked to too many other people who've had the same problem and used too many other files where I didn't have that problem).
For me, that's the hardest part.

[Stewie Simpson]

For above 10tpi these are hard to beat for quality.

http://jewellerssupplies.com.au/vallorbe-16cm-needle-file-three-square-p-1149.html

[Jim Matthews]

You can make an acceptable saw vise from ripped plywood.
It needs to have an inverted "L" profile to fit into your leg vise.

Glue on a strip of non-slip drawer liner, if you need more grip.
I recommend belt leather, if you have it - it should last longer.

Some join the assembly at the bottom with a fabric strip or
piano hinge, so it can't shift when you're clamping it down.

Good lighting makes a huge difference in what I can, and can't see.
Most dovetail saws will be in the 12 TPI or finer range.

9 TPI is pretty coarse.

For teeth that small, a magnifying headset is a help.

http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/wwsawvice.html

http://norsewoodsmith.com/node/57