Attach face frames to built-in.

[Steve Wurster]

I'm still working on my built-in, and now it's time to attach face frames to the bookcases. The cases are already installed, and each face frame stile covers where two bookcases meet, so I cannot clamp them on across the sides nor use hidden pocket screws. The stiles on the outer left and right will be scribed to the walls. The rail at the top covers all 6 bookcases but is currently accessible from above since the moulding that goes above it isn't yet installed, so those could be attached with pocket screws. Note that I am using splines for both alignment and gluing purposes. Also note that all of the face frame pieces are already painted.

I'm wondering how I should go about attaching these face frames to the bookcases. I don't want to have to nail from the front because covering up the holes would require repainting, and that's just a pain. So my thought right now is to toenail them from the inside. I've never done that before, so my concern is blowout or something similar. Well my primary concern is getting injured since I've never used a nailgun before, but we can probably ignore that for now. I'm also not sure what length nail to use; the frames and the sides are both 3/4" material. I can obviously only toenail the outer left and right stiles from one side since their other side will be inaccessible, but hopefully that won't cause any problems.

Would toenailing work well in this situation? Some of the stiles are a little bowed due to length (5.5 feet), so they would have to be clamped on using something like three-way clamps before I use the nails. Is there any other approach I should consider?

I will need a nailgun at some point anyway since I probably don't want to install all of the moulding that goes above the bookcases using a hammer. Both of the big-box stores are selling combo kits for $199 right now. One is a PC while the other is a Bostitch. Does anyone have any recommendations on which to go with?

Thanks.

[Mark Bolton]

Toe nailing is no good. Is there a gap between the cases?

[Steve Wurster]

There is no gap. The only gaps exist on the outer left and right, as those cases do not rub up against the walls. Why will toenailing not work?

[roger wiegand]

I'd probably use glue, with some biscuits for alignment and brads or finish nails in lieu of clamps. The fasteners only need to keep things in place until the glue sets, so they can be small and you don't need many. Unfortunately that would require either touch-up of the holes or a topcoat of paint-- one of the reasons its good to leave the final finish coat until installation is complete. Toenailing will tend to drive the pieces apart rather than together, that would seem to have a lot of potential for disaster. I try never to nail in the direction of my finished surface--too many things can go wrong.

[Prashun Patel]

I built my mudroom cabinet the same way. I hear your dilemma. I ended up purchasing a 23 gauge pin nailer (if your ff's are 3/4 thick, you need a nailer capable of shooting ~ 2" pins). I glued the face frames and used a few pins to hold the ff's in place while the glue set. The pins are only noticeable when you look closely. Mine shoots flush, not countersunk. I like that bkz countersinking creates a visible divot requiring filling. There's also less risk of 'shattering' the finish. I would still shoot through tape, though. Shot flush, you can disguise the heads with an artist's brush; or you can purchase pre-colored pins. You only need a couple. Try to keep them out of typical eye height.

If your room is narrow, you may also be able to use 'go bars' as temporary clamps. They are surprisingly effective and quick to use, but if the distance is too great, they can be a pain to make.

[Steve Wurster]

Which pin nailer did you go with, Prashun?

[Mark Bolton]

Steve,
Roger pretty much summed up the issues. Toe-nailing is really just a disaster waiting to happen. As he mentioned, in this scenario the nailing is actually trying to drive the pieces apart rather than pull them together. This often creates a loose joint that will actually hinge a bit. Also you will more than likely have an ugly blowout on the inside of the carcass as well and even though its inside its a bummer.

The reason I asked about the gap is the way I do these is to leave a slight gap there then I plow a dado down the back of my face frame and glue in a spline. This makes the face frame a T shape. You simply glue and slide the spline into the gap and shoot a few pins through the carcass sides to hold it in place. You could do this now even by plowing a 1/2" dado down the back of your face frame and then using a router and a 1/2" straight cutter plow a few mortises in the carcass joint (assuming you used 3/4" material this would be a 1/2" mortised centered right on the joint where they meet) then just install short splines corresponding to your mortises and glue and shove it it/nail through the carcass tight behind the face frame.

Many shops just glue face frames on but with no way to clamp, and if you finished the backs, thats a chore.

Dowels would be another option but the splines are quicker and easier to align/register in my opinion. Plus if your dowel bores are very snug you would have to drive the face frames on with a mallet and a block which would likely crack your finish.

[J.R. Rutter]

How about starting some finish nails by hand into the carcass face, clip the ends off in a point, and use a mallet to press the face frame onto them with some glue in strategic places?

[Steve Wurster]

I already have a groove in the back of the face frames and a groove in the edges of the bookcase sides. I will be using a spline for both alignment and gluing purposes. I still might have to use a mallet depending on both how tight the fit is and the bow of the piece, but I might be able to avoid cracking the finish by using a block covered in tape.

I like Prashun's idea of using a 23 gauge pin nailer from the front. Now I just gotta get a compressor...

J.R., are the clipped nails simply there for alignment, or will they actually have holding power? What gauge nail would you recommend?

[Prashun Patel]

I think I got the Porter Cable 1-3/8" (I misspoke about the 2") I found the Grex got the best reviews, but for a once-in-a-blue-moon tool, I didn't have any issues. Shoot. If you want to 'borrow/rent' mine, I'll mail it to you for the price of shipping back and forth. It's just gathering dust on my shelf for now.

[scott vroom]

Steve, we need more information in order to understand what you're dealing with. What is the total height and width of the built in? Have you pre-assembled the face frame? Can you post a picture of the project? It would answer lots of questions.

All you need to attach a pre-assembled face frame is glue and a 23 gauge pin nailer.

[Steve Wurster]

I don't think I have a picture available. The built-in is nearly 13 feet long, with each of the 6 bookcases being about 5.5 feet tall. The bookcases are sitting on a granite countertop. The face frame is not pre-assembled. The rail will go on the top, and each stile will be cut to size and installed. I think I can attach the rail with pocket screws from above. I'm pretty sure I'm going to go the 23 gauge pin nailer route for the stiles, nailing from the front.

The foot or so of space above the built-in will be filled in with moulding to match the rest of the room. All of that will be painted post-installation. Should I use 18 gauge nails to attach that moulding (which includes a crown)?

[Mark Bolton]

If youve dado'd for the face frame to carcass joint and you feel its going to be a snug/mallet fit I would scrap the nails/pins all together and simply glue, mallet the parts on, and hold them on there for a bit with some blue tape and forget it. I had assumed you had a butt joint there and would have a tough time clamping. Even a butt joint would suffice with glue and blue tape depending on the other factors. The nails/pins are adding virtually nothing to the joint once the glue is set. Even more so if youve got a dado there.

[Steve Wurster]

It's not really a dado. The carcase and the face frame are still meeting at a T-style butt joint. But there will be a spline between the two, and I expect that to be a tight fit.

The lower cabinets that I built last year were done the same way. I only used glue on those; no tape. Those are a lot shorter however so there wasn't much in the way of bow on the face frame pieces. They were also painted after installation.

[Bill Adamsen]

Had a similar scenario (bottom cabinets) where I didn't want to use the pinner and used the biscuit approach (domino might be better yet) just be sure to align from one side especially if you have "butting" cabinet sides.

You still have the clamping issue. With your scenario (mounted on top of granite top) I'm not sure how to get the back pressure. Couple of ideas come to mind. Double-sided foam tape a board to the granite, and use wedges? Clamp a board to the granite overhang and use wedges? Mount a cross piece using the self standards or holes, and then use cauls top to bottom? If 32mm or other pin holes are present, you can mount vertical scrap wood on the pin holes braced from side to side with scrap, then use clamps from front of stile to the vertical scrap.

I've used tape very successfully and then not so much - blue like Mark recommends above - also duct tape (some brands are "stretchy"). You'll need to cover anything where tape adhesive would be an issue.

Tell us what you end up doing and how it worked!

[Steve Wurster]

You still have the clamping issue. With your scenario (mounted on top of granite top) I'm not sure how to get the back pressure. Couple of ideas come to mind. Double-sided foam tape a board to the granite, and use wedges? Clamp a board to the granite overhang and use wedges? Mount a cross piece using the self standards or holes, and then use cauls top to bottom? If 32mm or other pin holes are present, you can mount vertical scrap wood on the pin holes braced from side to side with scrap, then use clamps from front of stile to the vertical scrap.



I just had an idea based on your feedback. Since the space above the cabinets is currently accessible, I could screw a board to the upper part of the tops and clamp against that. I could couple that with a board clamped to the granite overhang and effectively wedge a full height piece against the face frames. That might just do the trick.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I'd probably use glue, with some biscuits for alignment............

THis is the one-and-only perfect spot for a plate joiner. Do the biscuit thingy. And a few pins to hold them tight while the glue sets. If you feel the need to touch-up the pin locations, it is a very quick job.


I think I got the Porter Cable 1-3/8" (I misspoke about the 2") I found the Grex got the best reviews, but for a once-in-a-blue-moon tool, I didn't have any issues.

I started with one of the earliest ones available, 12+ years ago - and I forget the brand - it is a well-known name, though.

Then, I upgraded to one that could handle longer pins - a wider range of options, and better firing control, Cadex. Excellent tool. Gave my old one to a friend. Prashun is correct - it does not come out of the cabinet very often. The thing for me, though, is that when I use it, I am using it where I cannot afford to have anything go wrong.

[Peter Quinn]

They make clamps for this.....http://www.amazon.com/Bessey-EKT55-One-Handed-Edge-Clamp/dp/B000022457.....just get a few dozen and your good to go. Ouch. If you have a toe kick space you could run long caulks from the top where you have access to the bottom, secure them some how with scraps etc, then use wedges with a piece of cork to protect finish. Great clamping pressure from a wedge. If you have shelf pin holes you could run screw in to these the. Use surgical tubing as a clamp. I'm amused at how many people like micro pins....ImE you may as well duck tape the FF on, or use masking tape, micro pins aren't holding anything. As I read about this situation I can't help thinking it's best to handle this problem in the design phase. Don't build a 13' long bookcase in a single plane that then can't be installed. Break it into 3 sections, bump the middle forward 2 1/2", connect the mid section to be two wings with tongue and dado joints on the FF, scribe left, scribe right, slide middle in place, screw at top and bottom....add crown and toe kick or base molding.....I'm having a beer instead of filling in pin nail holes and repainting all the damage from clamping. I worked for a guy that is a master at designing huge built ins, we never did one in one piece and never glued Ff on site except in NYC brownstones with nasty little entry's that allow nothing through the door.

[Bill Adamsen]

Those Bessey clamps are pricey ... but they sure look like a fast and convenient solution. One could argue that some of these are no different than putting a "C" clamp on the cabinet (with padding) and dropping a wedge between the material and the "C". Bessey (and others) makes several types, does anyone have experience using the different models?

KF2 (http://www.amazon.com/Bessey-KF2-Handed-Edge-Clamp/dp/B0057PUY4K/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_y)
ETK55 (http://www.amazon.com/Bessey-EKT55-One-Handed-Edge-Clamp/dp/B000022457/ref=sr_1_95)
Rockler (http://www.amazon.com/Rockler-3-Way-Face-Clamp/dp/B004AK0C5Y/ref=pd_sim_sbs_hi_4)
Claw Clamp (http://www.woodworkerexpress.com/Cabinet-Claws-Frameless-Cabinet-Clamps-1-Pack-2-Each-per-Pack.html)

[Mark Bolton]

As I read about this situation I can't help thinking it's best to handle this problem in the design phase.

I would agree fully however (and no offense to anyone) but that kind of stuff gets refined over many many projects and is hard to apply when your just doing it here and there. The bump option is a great one and there are many more for flush installations. Hind sights always 20/20 though for sure.

[Steve Wurster]

The bookcase is made up of 6 individual pieces that are currently screwed together behind where the face frames will go, and screwed to the walls. In theory I could dry-fit the stiles for size purposes, and then bump out or even take down a bookcase or two at a time and physically clamp the face frames on before reinstalling. I'll have to think about that.

[john bateman]

This type of edge banding clamp aren't too expensive. Don't know if they're large enough for your purpose, though.
300157

[Steve Wurster]

This type of edge banding clamp aren't too expensive. Don't know if they're large enough for your purpose, though.

I think they do make those big enough for my usage. My worry with those it the small surface area and the possibility for denting. Having to use a board to avoid that shrinks the available reach of the clamp.

[J.R. Rutter]

J.R., are the clipped nails simply there for alignment, or will they actually have holding power? What gauge nail would you recommend?

Potentially both. 16-18 ga? But it sounds like you will be able to clamp/wedge it on to glue it. The clipped nails can be tricky to align on large assemblies...

[paul cottingham]

I used Miller Dowels to attach the face frames and hold them in place while glue set. Put dry fit, drill for miller dowels, take frame off, add glue to shelves and face frame, use miller dowels as clamps while glue sets. I sometimes dado or rabbet the back ofthe face frame as well.

[Max Neu]

I would pocket hole, then cover them up with a piece of 1/4" or 1/2" plywood glued and pinned. Or just use small head screws if you want access to the pocket screws for future disassemby.

[Sam Murdoch]

After the install Face Frame attachment - hard way to do it if you don't want to use trim screws or nails -

BUT - As you have set yourself up with splines AND if you have shelf holes bored I have done the following with good results:

Make up "pin board" - a 1 x 2" or 3" wide board as tall as will fit in the opening or thereabouts and bore matching shelf holes in it - at least every 6" or so. Using straight pin type shelf pins (or dowels) set your "pin board" into your cabinet side shelf holes. Glue up and tap your face frame verts in place and then hold them there with clamp pressure applied with clamps reaching to behind your "pin board(s)".

IT WOULD BE FAR EASIER if your face frames were preassembled. Leave only the very outside scribe verts loose for scribing and fitting. BUT as your top rail is one piece and you have access for pocket screws (or face screws if you are then applying some crown) the single stile at a time method can work OK. I might use "pin boards" on the mating side of 2 bookcases and use a caul across the two with clamps pulling from 2 pin boards at once. Would be a more direct pull. Of course you don't want the clamps to pull the verts tight - just to hold them there until the glue dries after you have tapped them into place with the splines. The idea is not to oversize the shelf pin holes.

With the right deep throat clamps you can sometimes hold 2 pin boards tight to the interior faces to help resist movement OR carefully screw 2 together using GRK type finish screws passing through the cabinet walls through the shelf pin holes. In this case you screw through a section of the "pin board" that has not been pre bored.

Clear as mud? :confused: Read twice and then if you are still befuddled I can try to be more lucid with my explanation. This method does work.

[Jim Becker]

I use glue and some longer 23 gage pins shot at an angle for this kind of thing. The holes from the 23 gage pins are barely perceptible. You do not want to use a brad gun for this unless you plan on filling holes and putting on an additional coat of finish.

[David Cramer]

I use glue and some longer 23 gage pins shot at an angle for this kind of thing. The holes from the 23 gage pins are barely perceptible. You do not want to use a brad gun for this unless you plan on filling holes and putting on an additional coat of finish.


Ditto.


I just got the new (newer) Senco 2" pinner a month ago. What a cool tool! I've used it several times and it already "saved" me:). Jim is right, barely perceptible indeed.

David

[Max Neu]

If you have a biscuit joiner, you might want to consider using the clamex fittings. I have the zeta p2, and use their various fittings for things like this.I am pretty sure you can use the clamex fittings with a standard biscuit joiner.The Tenso fitting would be perfect with glue, but Im not sure if that can be used with a standard biscuit cutter.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

I've been reading this thread with interest because I am preparing to build two large built in's for our home (the first of many cabinetry projects). My wife is my client! :) I have a question.

How do you deal with face frame for built-in cabinets against uneven, out of square finished dry wall? My plan was to attach FF later, like Steve, with pin nailer and yellow glue; fitting each piece of FF to the location and it's corresponding dry wall section.

Steve, I am not trying to hi-jack your thread, which is helpful to me, who is coming up with similar situation as you.

[Mark Bolton]

I've been reading this thread with interest because I am preparing to build two large built in's for our home (the first of many cabinetry projects). My wife is my client! :) I have a question.

How do you deal with face frame for built-in cabinets against uneven, out of square finished dry wall? My plan was to attach FF later, like Steve, with pin nailer and yellow glue; fitting each piece of FF to the location and it's corresponding dry wall section.

Steve, I am not trying to hi-jack your thread, which is helpful to me, who is coming up with similar situation as you.

You would simply need to plan for this in your design of the unit and allowing for a bit of extra material for a scribe on those ends that will require it. Just an overhang of whatever amount is required to allow you to scribe and then sand/plane the FF to to wall. 1/2" is usually more than adequate. We then back bevel that FF so there is less material to remove when you do scribe it into place.

[Steve Wurster]

Quick update: I went the pocket hole route. I was able to take down one of the bookcases and then move the other ones around on the counter. That allowed me to drill pocket holes on the hidden parts of the sides and attach the stiles that way. I also drilled pocket holes for attaching the rail at the top but haven't yet had the chance to attach that.

Thanks for the help everyone!

[Philip Berman]

What about hot hide glue? once it sets (fast) it doesn't need clamping, and setup with an old crockpot is cheap ($1.00 at a Salvation Army store). ? Never actually did this, but would be interested in hearing comments as that's what I was planning to do with the scribe-strip on the built-ins I'm working on.

Philip

[Max Neu]

What about hot hide glue? once it sets (fast) it doesn't need clamping, and setup with an old crockpot is cheap ($1.00 at a Salvation Army store). ? Never actually did this, but would be interested in hearing comments as that's what I was planning to do with the scribe-strip on the built-ins I'm working on.

Philip
Philip,
I think it would be difficult to do a rub joint with something that big, you only have a few seconds.If it doesn't work out, you will have quite a mess scraping off all the hide glue.