groves backsaw split nut issues

[joel cervera]

Got this saw off the BAY... I saw the issues with the saw nuts there and figured if I got it for an Ok price I could get some replacement nuts and put a good old saw back into use. But now that its home these don't seem like regular old split nuts.. on one side ( lets call it the left side) the saw has 2 nubs where I would expect to see the medallion on most vintage saws. These nubs have a beveled dome that appear to keep them from possibly exiting thru the hole towards the left side. The other side where I would expect to see the split nut, what appears to be the nut portion of the split nut has no slots to turn the nut and remove it. Additionally the adjacent nut has been removed but is mushroomed and will not easily exit when tapped with a punch..

Anyone, with a strategy, out there on how to get these things off?

Also. should I not even consider shortening this from the current 11.5" lenght to a 10". Would like to end up with a 10 inch dovetail saw and a 14 inch carcass saw( for crosscuts) for my first pair of backsaws.. Is it a bad call to do that to a saw of this vintage. I've got a real thing for these Grove & Sons handles, so I'd love this to be my dovetail saw....

P.S. I have seen an article on the net on fitting a nut with epoxy onto a mangled split nut to remove it and have that up my sleeve for a portion of this operation ...



Thanks.

Joel

[Tom McMahon]

Those look like rivets to me

[Jim Koepke]

Those look like rivets to me

This is also my thought.

Why does a saw need to be cut?

Is there a bad spot not shown in the pictures?

jtk

[joel cervera]

This is also my thought.

Why does a saw need to be cut?

Is there a bad spot not shown in the pictures?

jtk

NO.. no Jim.. there's no bad spot. just prefer a 10" dovetail saw to a 11.5" one. May seem trivial but If this is the last dovetail saw I ever use may as well get it dialed in just how I like it.. At least that was my thought... Again I dont know if that may be frowned upon with a saw of this vintage or not.. so that's why I asked.. Seems like theres more than a few of these out there.. but i'm not an expert so ....

[joel cervera]

Those look like rivets to me

Hmmm. Rivets you say... Bummer.

that should complicate their removal some. Which is a concern. Would hate to damage the handle in any way. Will probably need to drill out some of the handle for replacment fasteners too..

Will start searching to see if anyone has documented a way to carefully remove rivets from an old saw..

[Hilton Ralphs]

Will start searching to see if anyone has documented a way to carefully remove rivets from an old saw..

Drill press is your friend if you have one or even access to one.

Start with a smaller diameter than you think and go bigger until the head of the rivet pops off. Then use a punch and drive the rivet out the other side.

Depending on the diameter of the existing hole purchase new saw nuts to fit.

Blackburn (http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/saw-bolts/index.html)

Gramercy (https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/GT-CKIT.XX/The_Gramercy_Tools_12%22_Carcase_Saw_Kit_and_Saw_P arts)

Two Guys in a Garage (http://tgiag.com/sawnuts.html)

Chicago Bolts (http://www.leevalley.com/us/hardware/page.aspx?c=&p=40051&cat=3,41306,41311) from Lee Valley

Bad Axe (http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/bad-axe-fasteners.php) (website seems to be very slow or faulty at the moment)

Good luck.

[John Vernier]

My immediate reaction is that I would not modify a 150 year old tool to meet my current state of mind. I did a little of that, when I was starting out, years ago, and those tools reproach me every time I pick them up now. Get to know your saw for what it is, and if you want a different saw get another, no real harm there. You will find an 11 1/2 inch saw very useful, and if you cut it down the maker's mark will be off center, which won't look good.

I have drilled out rivets before and it's not much fun, but sometimes fairly straightforward. I would drill from the washer side, leaving the big heads alone. I start by using a center punch to give the drill a dimple to sit in, then slowly drill down to below the washer, or below the flared end of the rivet where there is no washer. If you go too fast things can heat up and scorch your wood. If you are lucky the washer or the flared bit will spin off to show you when you are through. When you have drilled the head off and have only the shank of the rivet to deal with, use a light hammer and a drift punch (or a piece of metal rod) the same diameter as the shank, or slightly less, to tap out the rivet.

[David Weaver]

If the rivets are tight, I'd use the saw as is. Otherwise, you're going to need to find vintage split nuts to make something decent out of it. Vintage split nuts had tapered edges, and the ones in that handle would've been filed or worked flush to the surface and basically been a custom fit to it by the time it was done.

Most of the modern split nuts have a straight side and will leave you wanting.

[joel cervera]

Drill press is your friend if you have one or even access to one.

Start with a smaller diameter than you think and go bigger until the head of the rivet pops off. Then use a punch and drive the rivet out the other side.

Depending on the diameter of the existing hole purchase new saw nuts to fit.

Blackburn (http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/saw-bolts/index.html)

Gramercy (https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/GT-CKIT.XX/The_Gramercy_Tools_12%22_Carcase_Saw_Kit_and_Saw_P arts)

Two Guys in a Garage (http://tgiag.com/sawnuts.html)

Chicago Bolts (http://www.leevalley.com/us/hardware/page.aspx?c=&p=40051&cat=3,41306,41311) from Lee Valley

Bad Axe (http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/bad-axe-fasteners.php) (website seems to be very slow or faulty at the moment)

Good luck.

Nice. This is what I'd been thinking. Thanks for confirming that this is the way to go. I do have a restored vintage Delta Milwaukee drill press so that will serve for this . Thanks for the suppliers info. I appreciate you taking the time to post it.

Joel

[joel cervera]

My immediate reaction is that I would not modify a 150 year old tool to meet my current state of mind. I did a little of that, when I was starting out, years ago, and those tools reproach me every time I pick them up now. Get to know your saw for what it is, and if you want a different saw get another, no real harm there. You will find an 11 1/2 inch saw very useful, and if you cut it down the maker's mark will be off center, which won't look good.


You know , this why I asked. I appreciate your opinion. You have a very valid point with the maker's mark. I've seen a few saws with it off center and it does bother me. I had forgotten that bit. Your experience also rings true. Should a state of mind ( which are constantly changing) modify something that's stood this long? Probably not... Can't unchange the saw as easily as I can change my mind again.

So this begs the question. (At least for me it does) this tool is somewhat narrow. Not too much depth of cut. Seems to lend itself to set up for dovetailing ? The blade seems tapered in width but in fact the back end ( near the handle) has slipped out of the spine/back. Once seated correctly the handle end of the saw plate will be closer in width to the tip of the saw plate. So set for fine ripping? The saw is a bit long for a dovetail saw. And a bit narrow for a carcass saw set up crosscut.

Any one one recommend a best use for this saw. Based on its strengths/weaknesses?

[Brian Loran]

I don't think it is long for a dovetail saw. Their are no hard rules set in stone. I actually prefer a 12" backsaw for most of my dovetailing. Use it as is and figure out if you like it or not before modifying.

[Kim Malmberg]

Joel,
I work a lot with restoring saws of various sizes. When I started out I wanted everything corrected, but the more work I do, the more I appreciate the less is more approach. The rivets may not look nice, but if the handle is secured and not wobbling around, you would be advised to leave them as is.

Personally I would reposition the spine, but then again if the saw plate is straight this way, then it might not be a problem at all.

All users have different preferences. Personally I cannot get on speaking terms with any saw shorter than 10 inches, and that is only for dovetailing. For anything else I mostly use a 16 inch backsaw, which many would consider too long. But that's just me.

But when it comes to shortening a saw plate you could easily damage the plate in the process, rendering the saw useless. You would also have to cut the back and most importantly after refitting the back you might find that the tooth line has become wavy.

So, unless the saw is broken, I would say, don't fix it.

[joel cervera]

The handle is wobbly. So the rivets will have to come out. One of the suppliers for split nuts ( Blackburn) appears to offer split nuts with tapered heads. Seem he can be contacted for custom fasteners for retrofits to vintage saws. I'll talk to him and see what he can set me up with. I'll seat the saw plate into the spine.Then work on the teeth and sharpening... Then I'll use it for a while and see how it feels.

[joel cervera]

Ok.. Well that sucked.. It was a little slow, tedious, and nerve racking.. but I did get the rivets out without much buggering of the holes... There was one rivet that came with the saw, that looks as though,someone had already tried to remove. It was the most difficult because it had already been flared out on the end that needed to be pushed through. Neither were easy and both holes look ok ( as seen in pic).. I ended up getting the large ends of the rivets out far enough to cut off the heads with a dremel tool. then backed the smooth cut end of the rivets to complete the extraction..

The saw plate isnt really even in the spine at the handle end of the plate. There is some waviness in the saw plate, as shown in my crappy photo.

Is this something that should fix itself once fitted to the spine properly?

Next up will be ordering saw nuts. and then figuring out how to fit them to the holes in the saw..
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[Kees Heiden]

The saw plate is probably wavy because it is indeed shifted inside the spine. It often takes a bit of experimenting what position results in a straight tooth line.

The handle is very pretty! Groves usually are.

[Kim Malmberg]

I agree with Kees. Removing the spine is sometimes necessary. But refitting it can produce various problems. If you knock it too low it might create a wavy tooth line. If you knock it on too high, it might pop off. But Joel, in your picture we can see that your back is a folded back which is not supposed to be positioned very low at all. It should sit comfortably onto the saw plate, and personally I prefer to have it seated with equal distance from the teeth to the underside of the spine both at the toe and heel. But that is a matter of preference and also a matter of how the saw has been filed, i.e. if the plate is substantially higher at the heel than at the toe.
It is difficult to describe exactly how the spine should be repositioned. And sometimes a very clear wave can occur she the spine is knocked onto the plate, but disappear if you gently tap down either the front or the heel of the spine. So as Kees says, it takes some experimenting.

I usually get it right by starting the refitting of the back so that the toe of the back is just a bit offline, or too far outside the toe of the saw plate. Then I knock the back down evenly, just enough to keep the back seated. After this I release the saw from the vise, reposition the saw so that the saw plate is fastened only at the toe of the saw plate. Then I knock the spine back a little, gently tapping from in front of the toe of the saw plate, thus moving the back closer to the handle. You need to go gently with this and make sure the saw plate doesn't move. If you this correctly you should end up with a straight tooth line. If it isn't straight, try repositioning the saw in the wise so that it grips the middle portion of saw plate, then gently tap the back a bit down at the toe, mid section and back. This ought to do it.

But there is no fool proof formula with a vintage saw. Your back might be slightly bent or you might have a kink in the plate, or the moon is not in the correct position for such a task. But most of the time, patience and several attempts will produce good enough results.