I'm spending 10K - are those the right choices?

[Gilbert Grenier]

Hello all,

I've been reading a lot of threads about a lot of topics, but always in the shadow. Today I'm jumping in with the results of my inquiries. But first some backgroud info... (By the way I apologize if my english writing is not very good, I'm french canadian and I never really took english writing lessons :))

Basically I've been working wood as a hobby for most of my adult life, building decks, outside furniture and the like. But I'm getting a lot of demand for house furniture and giving it a try, I realized that the level of precision needed, the type of wood used, and the fact that people are expecting much more when it comes to this type of product is not compatible with my actual machinery and set-up. As of today I work with a Bosch mitter saw, DeWalt portable table saw, hand power tools and basic hand tools.

Starting january 2015, I will be working full time as a woodworker and I'll spend 75% of my time doing house furniture and 25% (mostly summer) doing decks and garden furniture. I'll be working in my garage for now and hopefully be able to have a dedicated shop soon enough. As many of us do, I'll be sharing garage space with my wife's car at night so I'll move my equipment around, available space being 13x17. But I'm okay with that. Below I'll share my choices and my priorities. Please feel more than welcome to share opinions, insight, questions, anything that could help avoiding big mistakes. Also note that for some reason I don't seem to find dealers for Delta, Jet and some stuff from Grizzly among others. Canada is a pretty small market I guess.

Here we go...

priority #1 - table saw - my choice: Sawstop professional

priority #2 - jointer /planer - my choice: hammer A3-31, unless you suggest I go with 2 separate machines

priority #3 - bandsaw - my choice: Grizzly G0555LAN (as you can see, less $$ available lol)

priority #4 - press drill - my choice: Shopfox W1668

priority #5 - router - my choice: PC 7518

The only thing I was not able to decide on is the right dust collector. Powermatic 1300tx? Grizzly G0703?...

Did I miss something, a piece of equipment I didn't think of?

As I said, all insights are welcome and thanks for reading the whole thing :)

[Wade Lippman]

There are no bad choices; it is a matter of what you need and what you have to spend. I bought a cheap bandsaw and a cheap drillpress because I know they will be adequate. Someone else probably couldn't live like that.

Personally I would get a 2hp cyclone minimum and a separate planer and jointer. I am sure there are good reasons to go with a combination machine, but I haven't found one.

[Matt Day]

Quite a first post!

IMO, outfitting an entire shop with any amount of money (within reason) is nearly impossible. The amount of money that is spent on smalls, jigs, hand tools, fasteners, consumables, small power tools, etc probably adds up to half your budget.
If your question is "I have $10k to buy these 4 tools", then you've got some great choices there. You're just not going to outfit an entire shop with the machines you selected.
If it were me I'd figure out which tools I really needed and go from there. Good luck!

[Bill White]

I'm not a fan of multi-function machines. Go with separate joiner and planer. Good choice on the band saw.
All the rest sound like good machines.
Good luck on your new adventure.
Bill

[Andrew Gold]

Quite a first post!

IMO, outfitting an entire shop with any amount of money (within reason) is nearly impossible. The amount of money that is spent on smalls, jigs, hand tools, fasteners, consumables, small power tools, etc probably adds up to half your budget.
If your question is "I have $10k to buy these 4 tools", then you've got some great choices there. You're just not going to outfit an entire shop with the machines you selected.
If it were me I'd figure out which tools I really needed and go from there. Good luck!

I think the above is great advice, though you do have a really good list started. In many ways, I think the best approach is to start building the things you want to make; as you reach spots you can't work with what you have, you'll know what to buy. Not much help if you're hoping to work full time from day one, as this approach clearly leads to some downtime while waiting on a new piece of machinery to show up. For me, that trade off is worth it to know you're buying machines that align with your preferred style of work.

[Mark Carlson]

I like your table saw and jointer/planer choices and the router if you're putting it in a router table. Get the dust collector with the 1st purchase. Have fun.

~mark

[David Nelson1]

Gilbert,
I'm not crazy about combo machines as well but I have an A3-31 to reduce the foo print of larger machines. Having had seperate machines prior to owning the Hammer I found it bit frustrating to have to think well ahead of any operation to avoid converting the machine from one to the other. I had to change the way I worked ... not to much of an adjustment but it can be a hassle if gag a piece up and then try to rematch the same exact same thinkness. The tidbit I can offer is to not get the analog clock for thinkness setting but put that money to use on a byrde head, you be way ahead of the game.

The machine is metric no surprise there right. Well the clock can be ordered in metric or imperial measurements. So far so good right.... one rotation is 2 mm or .0787... still no real big deal right. What got to me was the hand never rolls back to TDC to complete a cycle. At .500 the sweeping hand could read anywhere on the face and you have to add the tick mark to find the numbers. It works after you figure it out but jeez they could have changed the gear ratio to correct that problem so the face read in normal matter.

Other than those two comments, it's a great machine and pretty quiet for a straight knifed machine. I would recomend it if you had a small shop.

[Gilbert Grenier]

Thanks Mark, duct collection will definitely be part of the initial purchase.

[Gilbert Grenier]

I figured the same, more on key components, less on these 2 items. Not sure i'll have the $ for a cyclone but i'll definitely keep it in mind.

[Art Mann]

My advice is to move slowly and let your projects dictate what equipment you should buy. For example, the Grizzly band saw seems to me to be a very well respected cast iron machine, at least on SMC. However, I would not buy that model. For many years, I managed just fine with only a high end jigsaw to cut curved pieces. Recently, my woodworking has taken a direction where I need to resaw boards to specific thicknesses that aren't widely available. The 555 just doesn't have the re-saw capacity I need. I have a 14" steel frame saw but I am looking for a 17" or 19" saw with a 2 or 3 hp motor.

Here is my experience with dust collection. I started with a strategy of using multiple small capacity mobile machines to do the job. My strategy was that I could add capacity incrementally as required. I now think that was a mistake. When I build a new shop, I am going to budget for a single high power cyclone system.

One more thing - I agree with Wade that if you have the space, buy separate jointer and planer machines. A multipurpose machine requires more planning and discipline than I have. I would spend half my time changing the machine from one configuration to the other.

[Gilbert Grenier]

Thanks Dave, that's exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for. Metric is not a problem for me, Quebec has been metric for some time now so I'm used to see both (my kids are 100% metric). Foot print is indeed important, that's my primary reason to look at this machine. Also, unless I'm mistaken, I would have to spend close to 4k for a good 8" jointer and 12" planer so I figured I could go with the hammer for the same price (ballpark) and save on the space. Reviews being usually great, I basically just need to figure out if I can deal with the hassle.

[David Kumm]

You will get lots of opinions, here's mine. I'd go separates for jointer and planer as there are lots of options, new and used for less $$. My most used machines are my table saws and my short stroke sliders are by far the most versatile for furniture work. My preference is old iron but there are a few made today. Hammer is one. Lock the table and you have a traditional but the ability to accurately size to length on a slider is huge in my world. Key is to not have the table protrude in front of the machine on a short stroke or ripping gets less comfortable. Even my little Hammond gets use on every project. Depends on the type of work but my sliders make a traditional saw ( I have several ) collect dust. Dave

[paul cottingham]

I would definitely be looking at a mortiser. One of the power tools I wouldn't be without.

[Gilbert Grenier]

Need vs want...are you my wife under another name? :D

Seriously, that's where the problem lies. I need to figure out today's need, my potential need in the future and take out what is overkill and what is "emotional" over rational.

I think the table saw is the right choice to cover for my future needs. Dust collection is a must since I'm working in an attached garage. Jointer and planner are also must have but maybe I can do fine with a 6" jointer and 12" planner instead of the bigger stuff. Bandsaw I could probably wait and keep going with the jigsaw for a while. I don't believe I'll resaw anything thicker than 2 inches for now. Press drill are pretty cheap and my wife wants to turn pen so I guess it's no big deal to include it.

[Brian Kincaid]

Since you are now a fine furniture guy:
Get a tracksaw cutting table setup (I like Eurekazone, Festool is a good choice).
Real shopvac (Fein or Festool)
Festool domino
Stop fence for your miter saw

Next
Get a jointer and planer or J/P combo with a byrd style head. It is MUCH less noisy.
Dust collector is required for J, P. An Oneida 3hp Superguerilla is a good future-proof choice. You can eek by with a 25' 5" flex hose and some fittings until you claim a permanent workspace.

Save the rest of your money until you identify a need on an actual project. In my shop I have a dust collector, jointer, planer, and tracksaw table. Sold the table saw long ago and the bandsaw recently. I might purchase another bandsaw at some point but I don't need one in any project I have planned at this point.
If you will NEED one hold out for a nice bandsaw MM20 or maybe MM24, purchase a good carbide tooth blade like the Laguna resaw king.

Decide if you really NEED a table saw or if it is just what you are used to having...

-Brian

[Dan Clark]

Gilbert,

I bought this drill press at Lowes after reading positive reviews on it: http://www.lowes.com/pd_78742-46069-PCB660DP_0__?productId=3162489. Normally, I don't buy tools at Lowes because they typically carry lower end tools. While this one certainly won't compete with something like a Powermatic, the price/value balance is excellent. Mine does not have any runout, the cross-hair laser helps with positioning, and because it's a floor model, the spindle distance to the base range is very good.

The only changes I made were to add a Woodpecker table and to change the lightbulb to an LED one (much less heat and electrical usage, and doesn't burn out).

Regards,

Dan.

[roger wiegand]

There are some smaller tools that I use a lot that I'd want to have if I were making furniture full time. First is a SCMS with a good fence system to allow accurate, repeatable cuts to length and angle cuts. You can do small pieces on the table saw, but anything over a few feet long quickly becomes awkward and accuracy falls off. Also arranging stops to make angled cuts on longer boards to exact lengths on a table saw seems to be beyond my skills. It's also a lot faster to go to the chop station than to rearrange the TS for crosscutting (most of the time theres a dedicated rip blade or dado head on the TS). Second is a machine to help with joinery. I have a biscuit joiner for aligning boards in a glue-up and light duty case work, and a hollow chisel mortiser for frames. Today I might well consider a Domino instead. Third is clamps-- lots of clamps. Fourth would be a set of planes- block, shoulder, jack, and smoother.

It was interesting to try to think of what stationary tools I use most, and also which are hardest to substitute for. The most used list would probably go in order SCMS, dust collector, TS, drill press, BS, lathe, jointer, planer, mortiser, shaper, disk sander, drum sander. I'd least like to give up the TS, jointer and planer, with the bandsaw close behind.

[James Zhu]

Do you have heat in garage? It is very cold in Quebec in long winter, not comfortable working under freezing temperature, also not good to high price tools like SawStop and Hammer J/P (condensation causing rust)

[Peter Kelly]

Hello all,

I've been reading a lot of threads about a lot of topics, but always in the shadow. Today I'm jumping in with the results of my inquiries. But first some backgroud info... (By the way I apologize if my english writing is not very good, I'm french canadian and I never really took english writing lessons :))

Basically I've been working wood as a hobby for most of my adult life, building decks, outside furniture and the like. But I'm getting a lot of demand for house furniture and giving it a try, I realized that the level of precision needed, the type of wood used, and the fact that people are expecting much more when it comes to this type of product is not compatible with my actual machinery and set-up. As of today I work with a Bosch mitter saw, DeWalt portable table saw, hand power tools and basic hand tools.

Starting january 2015, I will be working full time as a woodworker and I'll spend 75% of my time doing house furniture and 25% (mostly summer) doing decks and garden furniture. I'll be working in my garage for now and hopefully be able to have a dedicated shop soon enough. As many of us do, I'll be sharing garage space with my wife's car at night so I'll move my equipment around, available space being 13x17. But I'm okay with that. Below I'll share my choices and my priorities. Please feel more than welcome to share opinions, insight, questions, anything that could help avoiding big mistakes. Also note that for some reason I don't seem to find dealers for Delta, Jet and some stuff from Grizzly among others. Canada is a pretty small market I guess.

Here we go...

priority #1 - table saw - my choice: Sawstop professional

priority #2 - jointer /planer - my choice: hammer A3-31, unless you suggest I go with 2 separate machines

priority #3 - bandsaw - my choice: Grizzly G0555LAN (as you can see, less $$ available lol)

priority #4 - press drill - my choice: Shopfox W1668

priority #5 - router - my choice: PC 7518

The only thing I was not able to decide on is the right dust collector. Powermatic 1300tx? Grizzly G0703?...

Did I miss something, a piece of equipment I didn't think of?

As I said, all insights are welcome and thanks for reading the whole thing :)If priority #1 is a table saw, I'd go with a sliding table format saw. Hammer / Felder or MiniMax / SCM are both good choices. Priority #2 should be the dust collector & piping.

[Pat Barry]

If you are doing deck work then I think a 12 inch sliding compound miter saw should be on your list. Also a good circular saw and 18V Li Ion battery drill / driver

[Roy Harding]

The choice of a combination machine is usually related to floor space. I have a four function Felder CF531P which enabled me to have a sliding table saw/shaper/12" jointer/12" planer in a smaller space than the four tools would have taken separately. It works for me - however, there are occasions when I wish I had the four separate machines, so I'd be able to leave the machine set up for a specific cut. I've found that by being disciplined in how I work I avoid that conundrum in most cases.

[James Zhu]

http://www.hammerusa.com/us-us/products/table-saws/table-saw-k3-winner-31x31.html

The lowest hammer slider's list price (K3 winner 31x31) is $3699 in the states, even without any further discount, it is a very good price. However, we at Canada would pay lot more (20 to 30%) for the same hammer/felder product sold in states :(

I agree slider is way better than any traditional cabinet saw.

[richard poitras]

I'm not a fan of multi-function machines. Go with separate joiner and planer. Bill

Plus one .....

[Ruperto Mendiones]

Consider a router table and lift for the pc 7518. Also agree with a domino; it ~ obviates mortising and tenoning machines and accessories. Agree with saving a large fraction of the $ to buy what you need as you go along. Many of the tools and accessories I have bought thinking they would be useful down the road sit unused.

[Dan Clark]

About "shop vacs"...

To me a shop vac is something you use to clean your shop after you're finished making wood dust. Conversely a dust collector is something you use to help prevent spewing wood dust all over your shop (and in your eyes, nose, lungs, etc). For some people a dust collector is a large device that sits in the corner and has large tube running out of it. For others, it's a smaller portable device that attaches to each tool when you need to use it. Either will work, and either will be better for some tools and not for others.

I chose the portable dust collector route. I have two Festool "dust collectors" (CT22 and CT26) that function as good shop vacs too. Fein makes excellent portable dust collector/shop vacs too. Bosch just came out with a new one that looks very promising. I.e. lots of portable choices - each with pluses and minuses.

My shop is my garage, shared with two cars. Everything is portable or on wheels. I roll out my vacs, connect them to the tools, and store them away when finished. My CT's hook up to the Festools very well. Also, with adapters, they do a very good job with my router table (Triton router), Dewalt DW7480 table saw, Dewalt DW735 planer, and the Kreg jigs.

For some tools, like the Festool Domino (great tool!) and the Kreg jigs, it's very important to clear out the holes and mortices while they are being cut/drilled. For other tools, like the tablesaw, planer, and router table, used in combination with a mini cyclone, they do a keep most of dust from flying around. And of course, once your done, you can use a portable dust collector/vac to quickly clean up the remaining dust.

Be warned though... When you start using a vac/dust collector to get rid of most of the dust WHILE you are working, it's addictive. You won't go back to tools with poor dust collection.

Obviously, YMMV and depend on your needs, wants, and constraints. But I hope you consider dust collection a key factor in whatever setup you choose. Good luck with your decisions.

Regards,

Dan.

[Dan Clark]

...Agree with saving a large fraction of the $ to buy what you need as you go along. Many of the tools and accessories I have bought thinking they would be useful down the road sit unused.
Ruperto,

Agree completely. For example, after buying and selling a Hitachi plunge router, I bought a Festool OF1400. It's a great router and it has been a great tool for many tasks. Eventually, the need for a nice router table got stronger, so I have a Woodpecker router table, Triton router, and Kreg fence. Now I don't use the Festool as much, but it's still valuable. On the other hand...

I got a Bosch Colt for smaller hand work. Overall it's a nice little router, but it has no dust collection attachments. At least none that I can find. And poor dust collection is an issue for me.

The Festool router has several attachments for dust collection. Festool dust collection is very good for many cuts. The Triton router has a dust shield with a port that fits my Festool D27 hose perfectly. And the Kreg fence (and most fences) has dust ports. With my Festool vac attached, router table dust collection is excellent - for most cuts, there is virtually no dust.

So the Bosch Colt sits on the shelf except for those rare occasions that it is the best tool for the job. I bought it. I learned. I stopped using it mostly.

From advertising, lots of tools are awesome! From experience, it's a bit different. Please consider taking it a step at a time.

Regards,

Dan.

[Chris Padilla]

It all really depends on what you'll be building. Yes, there are some real basic things you need. I grew up around a table saw so that was the first thing I ever bought. Things grew from there.

My shop (garage) is bigger than yours and I would have a difficult time housing separate jointer and planer so the combo works great for me. Are changeovers a hassle? Yes, at times changing between the two can be an issue but it is just something you learn to deal with. So I have a very nice wide jointer and a widish planer with my MM FS41 Elite--16". I love it and it serves me very well. I think a table saw and jointer and planer are probably the minimal tools you'll want on hand. Other things are the various handheld tools like routers (or a router in a table...very handy) and sanders and jigsaws and circular saws and then something to clean up all the shavings and dust: cyclone dust collector and smaller vacuums like Fein or Festool are very helpful. You'll need an assortment of hand tools like chisels and saws and screwdrivers and a couple of planes as well. Oh...CLAMPS. See how all this is adding up quickly?! LOL Have fun!!!!!!!

[Gilbert Grenier]

Do you have heat in garage? It is very cold in Quebec in long winter, not comfortable working under freezing temperature, also not good to high price tools like SawStop and Hammer J/P (condensation causing rust)

Cold in Quebec it is...!! But yes, fully heated garage

[Gilbert Grenier]

I would definitely be looking at a mortiser. One of the power tools I wouldn't be without.

Went to the store to take a look at the Table saws and the rep there told me the exact same thing

[Gilbert Grenier]

http://www.hammerusa.com/us-us/products/table-saws/table-saw-k3-winner-31x31.html

The lowest hammer slider's list price (K3 winner 31x31) is $3699 in the states, even without any further discount, it is a very good price. However, we at Canada would pay lot more (20 to 30%) for the same hammer/felder product sold in states :(

I agree slider is way better than any traditional cabinet saw.

i'd love a slider but not enough room for now. But it will definitely be on my wish list for the real shop in a few years.

[Gilbert Grenier]

You guys are awesome, thanks.

so i'm pretty much set on the table saw. I would love a slider but i'll manage :(

still not 100% decided regarding the jointer / planer combo but the limited foot print of the combo might take over other considerations

dust control is now an absolute must

I'll go from there and see what comes up. As most of you said, there are so many little things I'll need, I better keep some $$ in my pocket.

time to hit some stores and get the best offers. if everything goes according to plan, i should make the big purchases in 3-4 weeks.

thanks again

[Art Mann]

I would definitely be looking at a mortiser. One of the power tools I wouldn't be without.

I would just like to say that not everyone feels that way. I sold my mortiser a few months ago to another SMC member. It worked well but I seldom used it. I now use a precision doweling jig instead for most things. Dowels are faster, easier, take up less room in the shop and the equipment is only a tiny fraction of the cost. There are a few applications where nothing less than a M/T joint will do. If I needed that, I would first look into a Festool Domino to see whether it would be sufficient.

[Art Mann]

You guys are awesome, thanks.

so i'm pretty much set on the table saw. I would love a slider but i'll manage :(

still not 100% decided regarding the jointer / planer combo but the limited foot print of the combo might take over other considerations

dust control is now an absolute must

I'll go from there and see what comes up. As most of you said, there are so many little things I'll need, I better keep some $$ in my pocket.

time to hit some stores and get the best offers. if everything goes according to plan, i should make the big purchases in 3-4 weeks.

thanks again

With those thoughts, I really think you are on the right track.

[David Nelson1]

It's not really a problem using the machine it is more work flow than anything else. BTW IF your used to metric system get the clock!





Thanks Dave, that's exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for. Metric is not a problem for me, Quebec has been metric for some time now so I'm used to see both (my kids are 100% metric). Foot print is indeed important, that's my primary reason to look at this machine. Also, unless I'm mistaken, I would have to spend close to 4k for a good 8" jointer and 12" planer so I figured I could go with the hammer for the same price (ballpark) and save on the space. Reviews being usually great, I basically just need to figure out if I can deal with the hassle.

[Matt Day]

I don't think you're going to get halfway to a fully outfitted shop if you are buying the quality tools you are talking about at new prices.
Do you really need a fancy new jointer planer, or would a used 8 inch joiner and 15 inch planer work good enough for you? That would save you a couple thousand dollars.
Sure a domino would be nice, but do you want to spend 10% of your budget there?
For the tablesaw, you could save a whole lot of money by buying a used saw that will cut wood the same way, obviously without the safety factor. no need to start a safety discussion, but just something for you to mull over.
I don't think I have ever heard someone say you need to buy a mortiser for one of your first big tools. And a mortiser and a domino?
As somebody said earlier on, you're going to get a lot of opinions on what you should spend your money on. If I were you I would take it all with a few grains of salt, and really think about what you are going to build.

[glenn bradley]

Here we go...

priority #1 - table saw - my choice: Sawstop professional

priority #2 - jointer /planer - my choice: hammer A3-31, unless you suggest I go with 2 separate machines

priority #3 - bandsaw - my choice: Grizzly G0555LAN (as you can see, less $$ available lol)

priority #4 - press drill - my choice: Shopfox W1668

priority #5 - router - my choice: PC 7518

The only thing I was not able to decide on is the right dust collector. Powermatic 1300tx? Grizzly G0703?...

Remember these responses are all just our own opinions :).

Priority #1 should be your dust collector. If you can have it outside in a lean-to or attached shed, go for the most powerful bagger you can afford. If you have to exhaust back into your breathing air, a cyclone is a must. I have a 2HP Griz and would have had a 3HP but, physical limitation prohibited it.

I have the Saw Stop PCS and have been very happy with it. As to short or long fence rails, that will depend on what you do. I went long and have not been sorry once.

I prefer a separate jointer and planer for the flow/methods of work I use but, many people LOVE their A3-31.

I was foolish enough to sell my smaller bandsaw when I bought my 17". Within a month I had bought another used small saw. I could do with only a large saw but, would have trouble with only a smaller saw. That being said, there are some pretty respectable 14" offerings nowadays but, they are priced up with larger saws so . . . why do that? Space limitation would be the only driver there for me and I would seriously consider going short on something else. The scales on the bandsaw / tablesaw change with what you do. What is important to me may not be to you.

I assume the drill press decision is in the hope for it to be a spindle sander as well. I think this makes sense as there are almost no decent drill presses being made today for the money you might want to spend. The smaller DP will get you started, not set you back much and teach you what more you do, or do not need out of a DP. I have a 17" and wish for a 20" about 20% of the time. YMMV.

I have a half a dozen routers or so. I never knew they were part rabbit. Porter Cable has a questionable pedigree right now and are a guaranteed pass for me at this point in history. I have 5 Milwaukee routers with a 5625 in the table but, cannot vouch for them either since my newest one is many years old. Based on experience I would buy a new Milwaukee before I would a PC but, that's just me.

So, dust collection FIRST. Then divide the remaining budget up from there. I speak from experience in that I will always have to wear a respirator, dust collector or not due to my NOT putting dust collection first early on. I'm not trying to scare anybody but, I am on daily medication and the extra precautions I have to take just to have fun I would not wish on anyone. Make dust collection first on your list and enjoy woodworking for a long, long time ;).

[lowell holmes]

I would never buy all of the tools at one time. If you do, you will probably find that some you thought were needed don't get used.

I would buy a basic shop, see how it goes, and then decide which tools to add.

[Chris Padilla]

Remember these responses are all just our own opinions :).

Actually, mine is pretty much FACT!!! :D:D:p:p

[Gilbert Grenier]

I don't think you're going to get halfway to a fully outfitted shop if you are buying the quality tools you are talking about at new prices.
Do you really need a fancy new jointer planer, or would a used 8 inch joiner and 15 inch planer work good enough for you? That would save you a couple thousand dollars.
Sure a domino would be nice, but do you want to spend 10% of your budget there?
For the tablesaw, you could save a whole lot of money by buying a used saw that will cut wood the same way, obviously without the safety factor. no need to start a safety discussion, but just something for you to mull over.
I don't think I have ever heard someone say you need to buy a mortiser for one of your first big tools. And a mortiser and a domino?
As somebody said earlier on, you're going to get a lot of opinions on what you should spend your money on. If I were you I would take it all with a few grains of salt, and really think about what you are going to build.

I'm with you Matt, some of the machines I can do without. No mortiser or domino for now that's for sure. As for buying used equipement, I never been confortable doing so. I know that it's a logical thing to do but I always prefered buying new and rely on the warranty and customer service. I don't trust myself to judge what would a good deal or not and I prefer being able to have a sales rep available if I need to kick some butt.
.

[Gilbert Grenier]

Actually, mine is pretty much FACT!!! :D:D:p:p

Love it...!!!;)

[David Nelson1]

I'm with you Matt, some of the machines I can do without. No mortiser or domino for now that's for sure. As for buying used equipement, I never been confortable doing so. I know that it's a logical thing to do but I always prefered buying new and rely on the warranty and customer service. I don't trust myself to judge what would a good deal or not and I prefer being able to have a sales rep available if I need to kick some butt.
.

The only thing machine wise that I bought new was a band saw, 14 inch Jet cast Iron frame 1 horse motor. Its ok but I see now if I get serious about resawing this saw won't cut it for long. (pun intended). Most all of the equipment I have I purchased here on SMC and one on E bay. That was spooky!

Let see 3 planers. 2 jointers, 2 shapers, 2 lathes, if you get my drift..... don't settle for low powered entry level equipment unless your trying to get over a hump till you can find the right deal. Ask a few questions here as you have done, I'm sure from all the varied opinions some of us will have to agree on something LOL.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I would just like to say that not everyone feels that way. I sold my mortiser a few months ago to another SMC member. It worked well but I seldom used it. I now use a precision doweling jig instead for most things. Dowels are faster, easier, take up less room in the shop and the equipment is only a tiny fraction of the cost. There are a few applications where nothing less than a M/T joint will do. If I needed that, I would first look into a Festool Domino to see whether it would be sufficient.

Annnd........from the other side of the coin:

First - If you don't plan on a lot of M&T joints, then this can be deferred.

Second - I used both extensively: dowel jig and mortiser. No Green Kool-aid experience. I sold the dowel jig, I donated my original mortiser to a HS shop, and I got a "real" mortiser [PM 719]. Would never consider getting rid of it. It is a one-trick pony, to be sure, but it does that one trick efficiently and accurately, with setup times that are very quick. The dowel jig never quite had the alignment that the mortiser does.

[Gilbert Grenier]

Annnd........from the other side of the coin:

First - If you don't plan on a lot of M&T joints, then this can be deferred.

Second - I used both extensively: dowel jig and mortiser. No Green Kool-aid experience. I sold the dowel jig, I donated my original mortiser to a HS shop, and I got a "real" mortiser [PM 719]. Would never consider getting rid of it. It is a one-trick pony, to be sure, but it does that one trick efficiently and accurately, with setup times that are very quick. The dowel jig never quite had the alignment that the mortiser does.

But I think the point here is that would it be in your first 3 or 4 purchased. I agree that if $$ is available it must he a sweet machine but should I get it before other tools...not convinced.

[Andrew Joiner]

Basically I've been working wood as a hobby for most of my adult life, building decks, outside furniture and the like. But I'm getting a lot of demand for house furniture and giving it a try, I realized that the level of precision needed, the type of wood used, and the fact that people are expecting much more when it comes to this type of product is not compatible with my actual machinery and set-up. As of today I work with a Bosch mitter saw, DeWalt portable table saw, hand power tools and basic hand tools.

Starting january 2015, I will be working full time as a woodworker and I'll spend 75% of my time doing house furniture and 25% (mostly summer) doing decks and garden furniture. I'll be working in my garage for now and hopefully be able to have a dedicated shop soon enough. As many of us do, I'll be sharing garage space with my wife's car at night so I'll move my equipment around, available space being 13x17. But I'm okay with that.



As I said, all insights are welcome and thanks for reading the whole thing :)

If Canada is like the USA I wouldn't start without liability insurance. Here it isn't cheap. If your running a business out of your home it can change the way the insurance industry looks at you.

Are you making any money with the tools you have now? I spent many years as a pro woodworker. One reason I made a little profit doing it was I only expanded when there was a need. I did many jobs with only a radial arm saw to cut full 4x8 sheets and rip lumber with! Only when I got a big store fixture job did I buy my first vertical panel saw.

Also you might need more room. Say you make a table. At the end of each work session will you have to store it in the 13x17 area? If it's a big table or some cabinets you will be doing a lot of rearranging.
I think new machines might be the least of your concerns. It's possible to make money with minimal equipment and space if your creative, so I don't want be to negative. Good luck. Just my thoughts.

[john Intosa]

Through buying, selling, upgrading, and downgrading, I've learned a few things. I remember hearing from a professional woodworker that he spend $8000 on sharpening devices and figured out what he needed for $500! That's been my experience with tools. I'm a hobbyist and value working comfortably with space and not in a cloud of dust. Get a great dust collector and choose tools with efficient collection. Especially, if you are doing this for a living. Air scrubber and good respirator. How many tools would I buy again? Sawstop, Kreg machine, Byrd heads for jointer and planer. RAS or miter saw. RAS allows better dust collection, but not something you can haul around. Fence stops that are positive and accurate on Table saw and cross cut saw. Festool track saw is very handy. Saw blades dedicated to operation. Cross cut vs rip vs plywood. Be prepared to buy a machine twice!

[Earl Rumans]

That's quite a list you have there. I also have limited workshop space, part of my garage and went for a Jointer/planer combo machine. Have you looked at a Jet 12HH? It's not the quality of the Hammer but it has great reviews and an helical cutter head. After using a helical head I could never go back to blades. The Jet could still do the job and save you some money. Have you adequate 220 outlets in you garage for all these machines? I really like my Jet DC http://www.jettools.com/us/en/p/dc-1200vx-ck3-dust-collector-2hp-3ph-230-460v-2-micron-canister-kit/710704K It doesn't take up much space and does a great job. Have you considered not getting a table saw? If you are making furniture I would consider a really good large band saw, good 12 in SCMS and a good Track saw setup. The SCMS could be used for deck building also. Most furniture making today is basically adding trim and support frames to plywood panels, unless you are going to make high end hardwood furniture. I think you could get away without the expense of the SawStop.

Don't forget all the other things you are going to need for the shop. Clamps, ROS, possibly a drum sander, planes, chisels, it just never ends. You end up spending a fortune on all the little things that you find you need.

[Chris Parks]

This is going to be a business so hours mean money. You need to buy equipment that will reduce the hours spent on a job and can pay for itself quickly. If a machine is difficult to adjust or inaccurate it is no good and should not be a consideration. The first thing I would buy would be a good DE system and it will pay for itself in keeping the workshop clean and efficient and follow that with a Domino, it will save you real hours. Digital readouts on machines, flip stop systems etc are essential for speed, setting fences with tape measures etc is wasting time. Experimental cutting to get to a measurement is also waste of time, you need to cut knowing it will be right first time. This isn't a hobby, you are trying to earn a living and that is hard enough without striving for the ultimate efficiency possible. Best of luck with it.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks Dave, that's exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for. Metric is not a problem for me, Quebec has been metric for some time now so I'm used to see both (my kids are 100% metric). Foot print is indeed important, that's my primary reason to look at this machine. Also, unless I'm mistaken, I would have to spend close to 4k for a good 8" jointer and 12" planer so I figured I could go with the hammer for the same price (ballpark) and save on the space. Reviews being usually great, I basically just need to figure out if I can deal with the hassle.

Hi Gilbert, I have an A3-31 and a B3 Winner.

You'll love the A3, buy it with the metric gauge, it is 2mm per revolution which is a nice step and you can exactly repeat previous thickness settings without fuss.

I would suggest that you buy the smaller Hammer slider rather than a SS cabinet saw. I have the machine with the 49" sliding table and the outrigger.

It takes a minute to put the outrigger back on and then you can crosscut a table top perfectly, safely without struggle.

I also build A&C furniture and find the Hammer slider far superior to the General cabinet saw it replaced.

I have the saw with the tilting spindle shaper, because I use the shaper a lot. You should watch all the Hammer/Felder videos before you buy, and seriously consider getting the shaper.

I also have the scoring saw and dado capability along with the flip up power feeder.

Regards, Rod.

[glenn bradley]

Actually, mine is pretty much FACT!!! :D:D:p:p

Ohhhhh, :D:D:D Ya got me!

[David Nelson1]

"I also have the scoring saw and dado capability along with the flip up power feeder."

Hmm did catch that feature!

[James Zhu]

A pro woodworker sent an email to MiniMaxUSA forum yesterday since he is liquidating his shop, http://fivebraids.com/tools/. If you are going to make a living by making furniture, eventually you will need all these kinds of tools to make your job efficient. not necessary MiniMax brand though.

[David Eisenhauer]

Kind of echoing some of the earlier posts here, plus a thought or two of my own (as a former small-shop furniture/cabinet business owner).
1) What type of furniture are you going to try and concentrate on? Case work (cabinets, entertainment centers, chest-of-drawers, etc) or chairs/tables/etc. It will make a difference in what machinery to purchase at first. You need to identify your market first, then tool up for that. Find out what is going to sell - not what you want to build. It is a big jump from decks/remodeling/etc to furniture-only. It is hard to generate enough revenue from only your own labor.

2) 13' x 17' is small. Only planning for the space required for the machinery does not take into consideration the space required for fitting/assembly, gluing and the very important finishing. You did not mention finishing at all. Mistake. Going from hobby to professional status requires that you seriously consider finishing and you will not be able to get away with "I'll just use a wipe on oil finish". Your shop will be shut down while things are drying. Your shop (with machinery) will not be big enough to hold even 1/2 of the lower cabinets of a typical kitchen and you will need to find somewhere to store cabinets while your are still building the remainder. Doable, but it cuts into efficiency.

3) As others have mentioned above, you will need to buy some clamps very soon after you make the first cuts on whatever you are making. Decent clamps are not cheap and you need to figure out what size will best suit your typical production. When I first started, I went from remodeling to kitchen cabinets, so that dictated what direction I needed to go on equipment purchases. Essential tools: TS - bought a Unisaw with 52" table extension (with at least one "decent" blade for cutting hardwood plywood at a cost of $75 or so, more specialized blades to follow over the years), some cross-cutting method (I already had a decent RAS, added another "decent" cross cutting blade), clamps (found out I hate pipe clamps even though I was many years slowly cycling them out of use), plunge router for edge treatment - 1/2" shank, carbide bits one at a time as needed. Send out for sharpening as required. Planer was next for face frame material, jointing was done with the excellent TS and a good rip blade, finished up with hand plane. Added an 8" jointer down the road and definitely sped up production. Just had to save money over a while to afford it. I did add a BS later on, but while folks talk about re sawing all the time, I find that the time spent re sawing (including the subsequent dimensioning and smoothing) vs buying hardwood closer to the dimension you want doesn't pay in most cases unless you have moved from case work to chairs/tables/benches/etc.

4) I went without dust collection for a while (used mask religiously) due to $, but went with a 3hp cyclone when I could afford it.

5) Finished by hand for a while, went to spraying (a must) with conventional sprayer and jumped on a HVLP system when I learned what HVLP meant and think that is one of the best business things I ever did.

6) I bought a shaper and cutters for raised panel work a few years into it and that separated my shop from many other "weekend" professionals. Was not a cheap investment, but it has paid for itself.

I guess the point of my long post is that you need to very carefully research where your market is going to be and then plan your machinery purchases towards that direction. I assume you will need the business to turn a profit fairly soon after starting so I suggest you only start with the first machine or two, add some clamps and whatever the very minimum portable power/hand tools you will need (as you gain experience in the new-to-you field, your tastes and needs will change), build a catch/assembly table for the shop and get started. Be ready to work in the shop all day, go to potential clients' homes at night to discuss potential work, then back home to work on quotes and bookkeeping.

[Gilbert Grenier]

That's quite a list you have there. I also have limited workshop space, part of my garage and went for a Jointer/planer combo machine. Have you looked at a Jet 12HH? It's not the quality of the Hammer but it has great reviews and an helical cutter head. After using a helical head I could never go back to blades. The Jet could still do the job and save you some money. Have you adequate 220 outlets in you garage for all these machines? I really like my Jet DC http://www.jettools.com/us/en/p/dc-1200vx-ck3-dust-collector-2hp-3ph-230-460v-2-micron-canister-kit/710704K It doesn't take up much space and does a great job. Have you considered not getting a table saw? If you are making furniture I would consider a really good large band saw, good 12 in SCMS and a good Track saw setup. The SCMS could be used for deck building also. Most furniture making today is basically adding trim and support frames to plywood panels, unless you are going to make high end hardwood furniture. I think you could get away without the expense of the SawStop.

Don't forget all the other things you are going to need for the shop. Clamps, ROS, possibly a drum sander, planes, chisels, it just never ends. You end up spending a fortune on all the little things that you find you need.

I did look at it but for some reason Jet is not available here. If I go in Maine or NH to buy it, warranty will not be valid so it's a pretty big gamble.

[Gilbert Grenier]

Hi Gilbert, I have an A3-31 and a B3 Winner.

You'll love the A3, buy it with the metric gauge, it is 2mm per revolution which is a nice step and you can exactly repeat previous thickness settings without fuss.

I would suggest that you buy the smaller Hammer slider rather than a SS cabinet saw. I have the machine with the 49" sliding table and the outrigger.

It takes a minute to put the outrigger back on and then you can crosscut a table top perfectly, safely without struggle.

I also build A&C furniture and find the Hammer slider far superior to the General cabinet saw it replaced.

I have the saw with the tilting spindle shaper, because I use the shaper a lot. You should watch all the Hammer/Felder videos before you buy, and seriously consider getting the shaper.

I also have the scoring saw and dado capability along with the flip up power feeder.

Regards, Rod.

I'll take a closer look at the hammer slider, thanks for the tip

[Gilbert Grenier]

If Canada is like the USA I wouldn't start without liability insurance. Here it isn't cheap. If your running a business out of your home it can change the way the insurance industry looks at you.

Are you making any money with the tools you have now? I spent many years as a pro woodworker. One reason I made a little profit doing it was I only expanded when there was a need. I did many jobs with only a radial arm saw to cut full 4x8 sheets and rip lumber with! Only when I got a big store fixture job did I buy my first vertical panel saw.

Also you might need more room. Say you make a table. At the end of each work session will you have to store it in the 13x17 area? If it's a big table or some cabinets you will be doing a lot of rearranging.
I think new machines might be the least of your concerns. It's possible to make money with minimal equipment and space if your creative, so I don't want be to negative. Good luck. Just my thoughts.

Facing some facts is not negative Andrew, it just make sense. I fully agree that space might end up being my biggest problem. I do turn out some profit from decks and garden furniture with pretty basic equipement. Since I mostly work outside, space is not a problem.

I have to admit I'm a lucky bastard :eek:. My wife brings in the biggest income, always has, and i do have some savings from my previous professional life. Based on that, my wife and I are ready to give it a couple of years to get things going - meaning not losing money in that time frame - and when decent profit comes along, move in a real shop. We don't need that money to put bread an butter on the table so it's much less stressful for me. Like I said, I'm extremely lucky.

As for insurance, it's very different here. I do need liability insurance but it's not expensive and lawsuits are not that common.

[Dan Clark]

Gilbert,

Everyone in this thread (including me) is trying to give you the best information and advice to help you be successful. There is no question about the good intentions. However...

One thing greatly concerns me is your 13 X 17 shop. S several of the recommendations require a LOT of space. How are you going to fit all this stuff in? A lot of this equipment is large. Some tools like drill presses and bandsaws don't take up much space, but sliding table saws and jointers can get very large.

For example, after a little research, I found the overall footprint of a sliding table saw. Most companies don't provide this, but I found it on the Grizzly site for one of their sliders: https://d27ewrs9ow50op.cloudfront.net/specsheets/g0623x_ds.pdf. This one takes up 6' by 12'. That's something like 1/3 of your shop floorspace!

Assuming that your shop space is fixed at 13 X 17, besides considering your needs and the options for filling those needs, it would probably be wise to plan your shop layout now. This will help you figure out what you can put into your shop.

When I built my garage shop, I used Sketchup to design the layout in detail. After designing the layout, it became obvious my conceptual image of my shop/garage was completely different from what my available space would allow. So I made the best of it, changed some tools, and redesigned and redesigned. Below is my final planning Sketchup model before starting the garage remodel. Below that are three pics of the end result.

It's far from what I would like, but it does work pretty well. I have a lot of Festool precisely because of limited space. They are pricey and not for everyone, but they are made for limited space. All of my other tools have been chosen with space in mind. Big sliders and jointer never entered the picture. I'd love a bandsaw, but I make do with my jigsaw. I'd love to have a large lathe, but I'll probably be limited to a midi lathe that will fit on one of the shelves. My tablesaw is a Dewalt portable contractors saw that fits under my workbench (on the right). The thickness planer and router table fit under shelves. All the big tools but the drill press are on wheels. All storage is planned in Sketchup in 3D because there is NO wall space left. Good 3D planning made this possible.

I hope you find the best configuration that meets your needs and constraints.

Good luck.

Regards,

Dan.

p.s. Here's a link to my garage project gallery, if you're interested: http://danclark.smugmug.com/Other/Garage-Project

299784

Left to right:
http://danclark.smugmug.com/Other/Garage-Project/i-gmd7gcL/0/L/DTC_2012_0326_14-L.jpg
http://danclark.smugmug.com/Other/Garage-Project/i-TngL7RQ/1/L/DTC_2012_0326_10-L.jpg
http://danclark.smugmug.com/Other/Garage-Project/i-Q8bjDhw/0/L/DTC_2012_0326_8-L.jpg

[eugene thomas]

Dan I really had to search the pics to see the drill press and saw.. All the festool kept drawing my eyes....

[Jon Nuckles]

Gilbert, Your writing in English is very good. Far better than my 2 semesters of college French! My thoughts:
- I have an older PC7518 and it is great for a router table, though it would be better with a lift that allowed better and above the table adjustment. It is very heavy for most other uses, so I'd look at other options if you are not planning to put it in a table.
- The Sawstop is supposed to be a great saw, but it is a big slice of your budget. If you want the flesh sensing technology, it is your only option. If you don't feel that is necessary, you can get a very good saw for much less. In the U.S., you can get a 3hp Grizzly cabinet saw for less than half the price. You say that your Grizzly options are more limited, so that might not be an option. Look at the G0691 or G1023RLX if they are available.
- I am among those that like a separate jointer and planer, but could imagine learning to work around a combination machine. If you do buy separates, I would go for an 8" jointer rather than a 6" model. I use an 8" and still find myself short more often than I'd like.
- I think you have already eliminated a mortiser or domino as initial tool purchases, and that seems smart to me. I think the DowelMax is an excellent and budget-friendly joinery tool and it is Canadian to boot.
Good luck with your new shop and furniture building career!

[Rod Sheridan]

i'd love a slider but not enough room for now. But it will definitely be on my wish list for the real shop in a few years.

The mid size slider is the same size as a cabinet saw and does so much more.........I have mine in the basement of a townhouse, very space efficient.

[Dan Clark]

Dan I really had to search the pics to see the drill press and saw.. All the festool kept drawing my eyes....

Yep, all that green is kinda blinding. :)

[James Baker SD]

+1 on at least taking a good look at a slider (or slider/shaper combo) before making your final decision. Rod talked me into one and I have never looked back.

[Gilbert Grenier]

The mid size slider is the same size as a cabinet saw and does so much more.........I have mine in the basement of a townhouse, very space efficient.

got it, some internet research to do tonight :). Which brand should I check first? Or avoid at all cost?

[Gilbert Grenier]

Gilbert, Your writing in English is very good. Far better than my 2 semesters of college French! My thoughts:
- I have an older PC7518 and it is great for a router table, though it would be better with a lift that allowed better and above the table adjustment. It is very heavy for most other uses, so I'd look at other options if you are not planning to put it in a table.
- The Sawstop is supposed to be a great saw, but it is a big slice of your budget. If you want the flesh sensing technology, it is your only option. If you don't feel that is necessary, you can get a very good saw for much less. In the U.S., you can get a 3hp Grizzly cabinet saw for less than half the price. You say that your Grizzly options are more limited, so that might not be an option. Look at the G0691 or G1023RLX if they are available.
- I am among those that like a separate jointer and planer, but could imagine learning to work around a combination machine. If you do buy separates, I would go for an 8" jointer rather than a 6" model. I use an 8" and still find myself short more often than I'd like.
- I think you have already eliminated a mortiser or domino as initial tool purchases, and that seems smart to me. I think the DowelMax is an excellent and budget-friendly joinery tool and it is Canadian to boot.
Good luck with your new shop and furniture building career!

Thank you Jon. But in your defense, french is a pain in the butt to learn. Lots of kids here finisho high school or college having a hard time to write decent french...!!

I have to admit, from all the reading, I'm starting to second guess the sawstop option. Not that it's a bad choice but as you say, that kind of money could be useful elsewhere, like a decent cyclone dust control system which is also health related.

[Earl Rumans]

Gilbert, since you have Hammer available to you, have you looked at the combination machines? The C3-31 Perform http://www.hammerusa.com/us-us/products/combination-machines/combination-machine-c3-31-perform-equipment.html with the silent power cutter head and Mortising unit would give you about everything you want, all in a single unit without taking up that much floor space. It was designed for use in small spaces. It would require you to plan ahead for your projects but it might be a viable option and would run less then all the separate machines you are looking at, plus you would have a saw almost as safe as the SawStop.

[Peter Kelly]

got it, some internet research to do tonight :). Which brand should I check first? Or avoid at all cost?Review of MiniMax SC2 Classic: http://www.metabricoleur.com/t6663-saf-minimax-sc2-classic?highlight=minimax+sc2

[Gilbert Grenier]

Gilbert, since you have Hammer available to you, have you looked at the combination machines? The C3-31 Perform http://www.hammerusa.com/us-us/products/combination-machines/combination-machine-c3-31-perform-equipment.html with the silent power cutter head and Mortising unit would give you about everything you want, all in a single unit without taking up that much floor space. It was designed for use in small spaces. It would require you to plan ahead for your projects but it might be a viable option and would run less then all the separate machines you are looking at, plus you would have a saw almost as safe as the SawStop.

This is an awesome machine and in the heat of the moment I could go crazy and order it right away but if I go take a cold shower, I'll have to think straight and admit it's too expensive for now. On this side of the border this baby will cost me close to 15k. But wow..!!

[David Kumm]

If you are looking at a full combo you should also watch used. It is not all that rare to find lightly used hobby machines. Full combos depreciate faster than most other machines so they are a bargain. Allows the budget to handle the Felder 700 series, higher end minimax or even Knapp. Way heavier build, thicker steel, heavier extrusions, better grinding on the cast iron, better slider design. Dave

[Prashun Patel]

There is a domino for sale on the classifieds right now. Its a great buy. If you are making furniture for customers, i think its worth the huge savings in time and effort it can give you.

[Gilbert Grenier]

Thanks for the pics Dan. I'm getting a clearer picture of the tools I want, the tools I need, the tools I really really need and the tools I will end up with. I'll definitely work on a floor layout based on all the info I got, the real footprint of the toys, taking into account the working area and storage.

[Ernie Miller]

I would avoid ShopFox unless you have a Shopfox dealer nearby. I own several and wouldn't buy another. This is not a knock on the machines, which have been fine. The problem is Shopfox does not sell to the public - only to dealers. So, if you need a part, you must buy it through a dealer. If you don't have one nearby, it will take forever to get parts. I'd go with the Grizzly versions of the same tool.

[rudy de haas]

hi:

Because you're in Canada you may find that buying from grizzly is somewhat more difficult than you might wish. First, delivery is by UPS and they give you no choices on it: so whatever the UPS driver wants on delivery is what you pay and good luck getting your money back afterwards. Second, if you or your survivors ever want to sell the machine, CSA or other certification will be required - so make sure that mchine has it.

A better idea is to visit your local busybee store (www.busybeetools.com) - their products are often nearly the same as grizzly's but there are no shipping or certification issues. I got the demo floor models for their 8" jointer, table saw, and planer/molder at a significant discount and have been happy with them.

The A-31 is a great machine - expensive but worth it if you have the bucks. You may, however, want to reconsider the sawstop - it's a good saw, but the safety feature is most valuable if the machine is used for teaching because of the reduction you get on insurance costs. If you are comfortable with using a cabinet sasw, you can save lots of dollars (enough to upgrade your dust collection!) by getting a more traditional product like the grizzly/craftex ones.

Bandsaws are very commonly sold via kijiji - and many appear to be in great shape at dimes on the dollar. If you're not doing a lot of resawing you may want to consider getting a bigger used machine along with a small, but new, unit like one of the korean made products at home depot.

Two other notes:

1 - Dust collection is almost as important as a sharp pencil - I wish I had known before getting started and now regret having underspent on it. Don't make my mistake!

2 - Allow yourself some money in the budget for things like making good tool and lumber storage. There's nothing more frustrating than knowing you have just the right piece of wood - somewhere in pile.

[Rod Sheridan]

got it, some internet research to do tonight :). Which brand should I check first? Or avoid at all cost?

Felder/Hammer have better dealer facilities in Canada, however MiniMax make a great product as well..........Rod.

[Kent A Bathurst]

But I think the point here is that would it be in your first 3 or 4 purchased. I agree that if $$ is available it must he a sweet machine but should I get it before other tools...not convinced.

Nope. Not in the first 3 - 4. Just wanted to give a different perspective to the comment I replied to. Keep it somewhere on your horizon, if it fits with your plans.

But - it kinda depends on what you plan on doing. Me - I do primarily Arts & Crafts style furniture; not only are there the typical M&T joints for rails-to-legs, etc., there are a lot of through-mortises. The sheer volume of M&T work makes it essential for me. Cabinet work - very rare for me. Did a very nice project rebuilding the kitchen 12 years ago - cherry, 33 full-inset doors with divided lites and stained glass. MY first big cabinet job, and my last - never again - nothing left to prove on that front.

I was fortunate in that when I loaded up the shop, I got a TS and a CMS with infeed/outfeed tables first, and then 6 months later hit for the cycle - BS, DP, planer, jointer, DC and mortiser.

I don't have any experience with the domino - guys here love it; it did not exist when I tooled up. Would not help on through-mortises.

Whatever you do - don't even think of getting one of those DP adapter things.

Also - FWIW - my 6" jointer had a shelf life of 9 months. donated it to local HS - 8" is minimum, IMO.

And - my first mortiser - the base-model - had a shelf life of 6 months - also went to the HS.

[Roy Harding]

Kind of echoing some of the earlier posts here, plus a thought or two of my own (as a former small-shop furniture/cabinet business owner).
...

2) 13' x 17' is small. Only planning for the space required for the machinery does not take into consideration the space required for fitting/assembly, gluing and the very important finishing. You did not mention finishing at all. Mistake. Going from hobby to professional status requires that you seriously consider finishing and you will not be able to get away with "I'll just use a wipe on oil finish". Your shop will be shut down while things are drying. Your shop (with machinery) will not be big enough to hold even 1/2 of the lower cabinets of a typical kitchen and you will need to find somewhere to store cabinets while your are still building the remainder. Doable, but it cuts into efficiency.

...

...

5) Finished by hand for a while, went to spraying (a must) with conventional sprayer and jumped on a HVLP system when I learned what HVLP meant and think that is one of the best business things I ever did.

... Be ready to work in the shop all day, go to potential clients' homes at night to discuss potential work, then back home to work on quotes and bookkeeping.

Those points I didn't delete are PERFECT. When I set up my furniture (case work) business, I built a 25' X 50' shop - built around the workhorse of the whole thing, a Felder combo machine. I had originally set aside a small (7' X 9') area to be my spray room. Somewhere along the way, the spray room became my office - big mistake. I dealt with having to curtail ALL activity in the shop when I was doing finishing work, for fear of dust settling on the pieces. I recently bought an old, run down, but waterproof camping trailer and have converted it to be my spray room - hopefully, this works (seems good so far, but it's only been a couple of weeks).

David also makes a GREAT point regarding storage. I make blanket chests, hope chests, dowry chests - a LOT of chests. Despite the size of my shop, when I've got four or five on the go, it can be hazardous to walk around the shop. I've taken over our 3 car garage JUST to store works in progress (and a little bit of raw lumber).

Many other folks have made excellent points, and given you valid food for thought - but I just had to reinforce those two particular points.

Best of luck to you - you CAN make a decent living at this - but it's a hard row to hoe.

[John Sanford]

If you are looking at a full combo you should also watch used. It is not all that rare to find lightly used hobby machines. Full combos depreciate faster than most other machines so they are a bargain. Allows the budget to handle the Felder 700 series, higher end minimax or even Knapp. Way heavier build, thicker steel, heavier extrusions, better grinding on the cast iron, better slider design. Dave

What David said. You missed a Minimax CU300 here on the Creek by 2 weeks, you could have had your tablesaw, shaper, jointer, planer and mortiser needs covered for less than $5k and a trip to Michigan.

Now, I'm going to ramble a bit....

Based on the fuzziness of your plans, I'd suggest getting a good (i.e. 12" +) J/P, a decent used drill press, a track saw, mobile cyclone, good jigsaw, and start building things. You can use the tracksaw and jigsaw to handle all of your sheet good requirements, as well as do a significant amount of solid wood work. Your biggest limitation is your space. I wouldn't invest in a tablesaw (cabinet or slider) until you determine that you REALLY need it.

The thing is, there's so many different ways to get from quantity of cellulose to finished furniture that its pretty difficult to say "this is the way you should go", especially when the destination is vague. There are folks who turn out gallery quality work with a herd of Festool, a bandsaw, a jointer and a planer. There are some who have no bandsaw, others who have no tablesaw.

If you don't have a lot of work lined up yet, decide what you'd like to build on spec, and tool up for that.

[Earl Rumans]

Another thing you need to think about is the finishing process. With your space limitations, what are you planning to do for finishing? A spray booth takes up lots of space and hand finishing also uses a lot of space, to dry between coats. There have been some excellent suggestions given here but before you spend this huge amount on your tools, you really need to sit down a plan exactly what and how you are gong to accomplish building the things you want to build.

[Gilbert Grenier]

I think my best move was to post about my project. You guys gave me great advices / opinions / thoughts and it did open my eyes on a few things I underestimated and a few more I overestimated. Dust collection is now much higher on my list. I even have to make sure my garage is the best place to set my shop. I'll investigate some more and maybe find a decent place that will not cost too much and prevent me from buying expensive tools for the wrong reasons. Sanding and finishing was also missing from my planing so again, thanks for the advices. Good news is I'm closer to start working than I was at the beginning of the week.

[Andrew Joiner]

I think my best move was to post about my project. You guys gave me great advices / opinions / thoughts and it did open my eyes on a few things I underestimated and a few more I overestimated. Dust collection is now much higher on my list. I even have to make sure my garage is the best place to set my shop. I'll investigate some more and maybe find a decent place that will not cost too much and prevent me from buying expensive tools for the wrong reasons. Sanding and finishing was also missing from my planing so again, thanks for the advices. Good news is I'm closer to start working than I was at the beginning of the week.

I think your smart to do that Gilbert. One thing you could try is to take on a small job right now. Tell the client it will be an experiment and maybe discount the price so they will be flexible. See what you can do with the space and tools you have now. You'll learn what you need as you go.

10 years after I retired from professional woodworking I built a 12'x12' shed and got a contractor saw. I made a couple of things for my family just for fun. Then a wealthy friend asked me to build a set of Birds Eye Maple and Walnut office furniture. I wanted to see if I could do it with my tiny minimal shop. My friend was willing to pay well and give me lots of time to do the job. In a sense I was spoiled. My commercial shop was well equipped and spacious, but I got the job done. The client was very happy. It was a wonderful creative experience to build so much with so little.

[Jim Andrew]

About 10 years ago I set up my shop, and spent about 10 k on equipment. Got a 2hp cyclone dc, a unisaw, a mm16 bandsaw, a woodmaster planer-molder, a 10" jointer, and a couple pc routers. The pipe for the dc cost more than the collector, as my shop size was 26 x 50, and since then, still have the unisaw, the mm bandsaw, and the routers. Have spent more since then, sold the woodmaster, the 10" jointer, and added 16' to the shop. Added a Hammer 79x48, a 12" jointer, a 15" planer, several routers, ros and vacs. Also a Makita scms, along with the kreg measuring system, a kreg type assembly table, and some kreg t track clamps, and about 50 or more clamps. Also a Grizzly shaper and power feeder. Found Carbide Processors, and bought blades for plywood, rip,and crosscutting solid wood, and find I hardly need the scoring blade. They have these Tenryu brand blades that cut hardwood like nothing. Woodworking is a slippery slope, pretty soon you need a bandmill and a skidsteer so you can cut your own lumber.

[Gilbert Grenier]

Hi Gilbert, I have an A3-31 and a B3 Winner.

You'll love the A3, buy it with the metric gauge, it is 2mm per revolution which is a nice step and you can exactly repeat previous thickness settings without fuss.

I would suggest that you buy the smaller Hammer slider rather than a SS cabinet saw. I have the machine with the 49" sliding table and the outrigger.

It takes a minute to put the outrigger back on and then you can crosscut a table top perfectly, safely without struggle.

I alsbuild A&C furniture and find the Hammer slider far superior to the General cabinet saw it replaced.

I have the saw with the tilting spindle shaper, because I use the shaper a lot. You should watch all the Hammer/Felder videos before you buy, and seriously consider getting the shaper.

I also have the scoring saw and dado capability along with the flip up power feeder.

Regards, Rod.

Hi Rod

I've contacted Hammer and once I explained the kind of shop I wanted (and my limitations), and the rep told me my best option would be a A31 and B3 combo. Funny how things turn out. He says the C31 is also a great piece of equipment but the shaper spindle doesn't tilt and the mortising unit is not my best option if I do a lot of mortising, which I plan to do. Hence the A31 / B3 combo.

SS is not an option anymore as I learned that once the break engage, it has to be replaced and we're talking a few hundred $$. And from what I gathered, the pressure on the blade is such that it could damage it to a point it needs to be replaced as well. Not a big issue if I saved a finger but apparently it could engage if you cut wood that is not fully dried. I don't know how valid the information is but I don't want to spend 4k to find out.

[Prashun Patel]

I'm not trying to dissuade you from the fine choice of an A31/B3 (and I certainly don't want this to devolve into a Sawstop debate), but my experience has been:

The Sawstop brakes are between $50 and $80 each.
The blade has never misfired on green wood; It warned me once, but honestly I almost never cut green wood on a tablesaw anymore anyway. I use my bandsaw for that. I've cut plenty of air dried beech that is in the 15-18% moisture range on my SS and the brake has never fired.
The blade doesn't just get pressure during a brake fire, it is destroyed.
The blade will fire when it contacts metal, like an Incra miter gauge. DAMHIKT.

I find the technology to be reliable and accurate; there are no discernible false-positives and I've not had to alter the way I work because of the saw, with one exception: dado blade changes require a special brake. So, you have to buy and install a new brake in addition to installing a dado set. This minor inconvenience has caused me to seek other ways to cut dados and tenons altogether.

[Hovey Moore]

Those Hammer machines are very nice and I think you be very happy with them. Get an indexed head on the jointer/planer!

One thing you should do is walk yourself though several projects mentally and note all the steps required to make those projects and how work will flow through your planned space. Then write down all the different ways you could accomplish those tasks. You might find other ways to get by with less equipment (saving money and space) or faster (making you more money). $10K sounds like a lot but it goes fast.

For example:
For cabinet face frames you could, mortise, domino, dowel, biscuit, butt, half lap, or pocket screw. All of them have advantages and disadvantages. Only a few are really suitable for quality production work.

Another example:
Outsourcing raised panel doors costs more money per door over the raw material but it then you don't need a shaper/feeder, all their associated templates and bits, and tons of clamps. Ultimately it saved the shop I worked for money over doing them in house.

[Peter Kelly]

Hi Rod

I've contacted Hammer and once I explained the kind of shop I wanted (and my limitations), and the rep told me my best option would be a A31 and B3 combo. Funny how things turn out. He says the C31 is also a great piece of equipment but the shaper spindle doesn't tilt and the mortising unit is not my best option if I do a lot of mortising, which I plan to do. Hence the A31 / B3 combo.You might look into one of these for mortising: http://woodgears.ca/pantorouter/kuldeep/buy.html

Makes tenons as well. Also stows out of the way when you're not using it.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Rod

I've contacted Hammer and once I explained the kind of shop I wanted (and my limitations), and the rep told me my best option would be a A31 and B3 combo. Funny how things turn out. He says the C31 is also a great piece of equipment but the shaper spindle doesn't tilt and the mortising unit is not my best option if I do a lot of mortising, which I plan to do. Hence the A31 / B3 combo.

SS is not an option anymore as I learned that once the break engage, it has to be replaced and we're talking a few hundred $$. And from what I gathered, the pressure on the blade is such that it could damage it to a point it needs to be replaced as well. Not a big issue if I saved a finger but apparently it could engage if you cut wood that is not fully dried. I don't know how valid the information is but I don't want to spend 4k to find out.

LOL Gilbert, that's pretty funny.

You should seriously look at the B3 Winner and the A3-31.

You can add accessories at any point, options are only available at the factory.

You can start with the scoring saw and dadoe capability, then add accessories as you desire them down the road, or just buy what you want at the beginning.

ince each machine is built to order you get exactly the machine that's best for you........Rod.

[Matt Day]

I would avoid ShopFox unless you have a Shopfox dealer nearby. I own several and wouldn't buy another. This is not a knock on the machines, which have been fine. The problem is Shopfox does not sell to the public - only to dealers. So, if you need a part, you must buy it through a dealer. If you don't have one nearby, it will take forever to get parts. I'd go with the Grizzly versions of the same tool.
That's "true" but grizzly parts are interchangeable with Shop Fox, so why not just buy grizzly parts and avoid markup and possibly tax from your local Shop Fox dealer?

[William M Johnson]

Probably should not step in to this but here goes. I sold a lot of my big equipment. And have gone green. I bought a SawStop and so far have only used it to make some dados on thin stock that was going to be a pain to use the router on. I use the track saw now (formerly Eureka Zone now Festool) for virtually everything I used the table saw for, with better results. I just glued up a table top with no jointing, the cut from the track saw was that good. Previously I used the table saw then to the Roubo and jointer plane. No more. The table top was mesquite and required gluing up many short boards (12"). I used the Kapex to square up the ends with no second operation. With my old chop saws (regardless of brand) I had to take it to the Roubo and use the shooting board, nope. Perfect joints right off the saw.

And no sawdust. My hand planes are starting to rust because I don't need them to correct the mistakes of all my big equipment. Still have shaper and molder but the tablesaw (PM66) and Jointer (PM59) are a thing of the past.

My $0.02

bill

[Gilbert Grenier]

Hi all,

i just want to give you an update on most of my choices. I know some of the choices my not get approval but I had to keep in mind footprint, dollars (yes, I do bust my initial budget :rolleyes: ), quality, mobility and overall appreciation of the tool. In the end, i don't think there are really bad choices but to afford the Hammer I will buy, I had to downgrade some other tools. So here we go:

Hammer B3 winner Tablesaw/shaper
Hammer A31 jointer/planner
Jessem router table w/ masterlift II (already have a Dewalt DWP618 to install on it so I'll sadly let go of the Milwaukee :()
General press drill 75-200 (getting it used, great deal on it)
Rikon 10-321 bandsaw (wanted the Grizzly G0555P but got a great deal on the Rikon and save many hundred $$)
I'm not 100% set on the dust control brand but it will be a cyclone to which I add a General 10-600 air cleaner

on stand by: General 75-050T mortiser and professional grade sander (I'll keep going with my Rigid EB4424 for now).

First projet will be a sturdy workbench :cool:
Second project... Well anything the lady wants ;)

Thank you so much for all your input, all comments were very useful. I'll keep you posted once i'm installed and production starts.

best regards :)

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Gilbert, good decision on the Hammer equipment.

I'm curious why you want a router table when you have a tilting spindle/sliding table shaper?

In more than 30 years I've never owned a router table, always a shaper.............Regards, Rod.

[Peter Kelly]

Rikon 10-321 bandsaw (wanted the Grizzly G0555P but got a great deal on the Rikon and save many hundred $$)I'd hold off on the bandsaw and save up until you can get something more substantial. That Rikon looks pretty marginal for professional use.

[paul cottingham]

I got rid of my router table, and don't miss it. At all. Now, on the other hand, I had a shaper....I would use that. Use the money for dust control or a mortiser, or a better band saw. Use my band saw and mortiser all the time.

[Gilbert Grenier]

Hi Gilbert, good decision on the Hammer equipment.

I'm curious why you want a router table when you have a tilting spindle/sliding table shaper?

In more than 30 years I've never owned a router table, always a shaper.............Regards, Rod.

You got me there Rod...

I never had a shaper before so I went online reading about it and I was under the impression that a router was needed for smaller, more "delicate" jobs. But you're basically saying I can do without it? That would be great news...

[Gilbert Grenier]

I'd hold off on the bandsaw and save up until you can get something more substantial. That Rikon looks pretty marginal for professional use.

Hi Peter,

I have to admit the Grizzly bandsaw seems to be the perfect fit but the Rikon had decent reviews so I figured it could be a compromise I could live with, at least temporarily. There's a good discount on it so since I really need one, I'll use it for a year, maybe two, and then sell it and upgrade.

[Rod Sheridan]

You got me there Rod...

I never had a shaper before so I went online reading about it and I was under the impression that a router was needed for smaller, more "delicate" jobs. But you're basically saying I can do without it? That would be great news...

Yup, purchase a cutterhead from Felder, the 40mm euroblock with chip limiters, it uses HSS knives, makes great mouldings...........Rod.