Lie Nielson to Veritas conversion?

[Chris Hachet]

Anyone else here start out as a big Lie Nielson fan and end up liking Veritas/Lee Valley tools better? I just ordered another tool from Lee Valley (apron Plane). I am finding myself liking the feel of Lee Valley/Veritas better the longer the stuff is actually in my hands.


...and yes, I know those are fighting words around here.

[Sean Hughto]

Sounds like you might have been using some kind of cheap knock off, as it's Lie Nielsen, not Lie Nielson.

Coke or Pepsi, chocolate or vanilla, scotch or bourbon, etc. etc.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I'm the same, but the other way round. LN are traditional classy, LV are modern.

[Mike Henderson]

Each has good tools. There are some LN tools that I prefer over LV and some LV tools that I prefer over LN.

Mike

[Mike Brady]

Only for tools Lie-Nielson doesn't offer.

[glenn bradley]

LN make beautiful tools. I am not a true Neanderthal so I can only offer my own experiences as a mixed tool wood worker. The modern conveniences of the Veritas designs appeal to me just as the modern features on a more recent drill press or other machine appeal to me more than the indisputable coolness of older styled machines.

The set screws that restrict the blades movement/pivot point, the attention to shape and fit to the hand, the precision adjustment mechanisms and a number of other mean something to me and increase my pleasure in using the tool where they may not mean anything to someone else. I don't think its a contest and I own various brands. If I were gong to start from scratch there would be more Lee Valley stuff in the till than some others but, it really only matters what is working for you ;)

[Patrick Bernardo]

I know it could be an invitation to a fight, but I'd love to hear from experienced users which they prefer from the two, and why. As I'm getting more into the hobby, I'd like to pick up a couple of premium tools. But, say, which maker has the better skew rabbet? If I wanted a low-angle jack, should I go with the LN or the LV?

I know that it comes down to personal preference at the end, but if some of the guys here who really use the tools did a comparison, I'd love to read it. It's one of the things that I always really enjoy reading on Derek Cohen's site. He gives a pretty good overview of pros and cons on the tools he tests.

[Mike Henderson]

I know it could be an invitation to a fight, but I'd love to hear from experienced users which they prefer from the two, and why. As I'm getting more into the hobby, I'd like to pick up a couple of premium tools. But, say, which maker has the better skew rabbet? If I wanted a low-angle jack, should I go with the LN or the LV?

I know that it comes down to personal preference at the end, but if some of the guys here who really use the tools did a comparison, I'd love to read it. It's one of the things that I always really enjoy reading on Derek Cohen's site. He gives a pretty good overview of pros and cons on the tools he tests.
The problem for most of us is that we haven't used both brands of the same tool, unless we found one to just be terrible and bought the same tool in the other brand. That was true for me with the LN small router plane. I thought it was terrible and sold it. But I replaced it with the full size LV router plane.

Also, I owned the Record 073 shoulder plane that the LN is based on - and found it terrible. The LV medium shoulder plane was much better.

But I have a number of other LN planes that I like quite well and haven't used the LV equivalent.

Mike

[David Weaver]

six of one, half dozen of another.

If you're the kind of person who likes to get new tool releases, you're better off being a fan of LV - they actually release lots of them.

I've come to prefer vintage tools, though, but it took quite a few hours of use to get to that, and I may not have made that conversion if it weren't for dimensioning from rough.

[paul cottingham]

Prefer the Lie-Nielsen handles (a no brainer, the standard handles on older LV planes suck, they really, really need to make some of the newer handles for their new robo-plane available for the older planes,) but prefer the LV tools in general.

[Jim Koepke]

Each has good tools. There are some LN tools that I prefer over LV and some LV tools that I prefer over LN.

Mike

Ditto.

My preference if for the old Stanley/Bailey style design. I am not much of a fan of the square side Bedrock design.

I wish I had an opportunity to handle the Veritas DX/NX 60 planes before I bought the LN #60-1/2. The LN is a great block plane, but some days an old hand injury makes it seem a bit heavy and difficult to hold solidly. Someone else mentioned the LV (Veritas) had a slippery grip. That may have been an influence on my purchase at the time.

Whether one likes the classics or a design more akin to the 21st century we are fortunate to have these two sources meeting our needs and desires.

It is our good fortune being able to purchase from either or both.

jtk

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Okay, here are my thoughts first in short, then in more detail: In sort- you really can't go wrong with either. They are both the best in the business and for a reason- quality, design, and customer service being top reasons.

That said, the long of the story: Lie Nielsen specifically takes Stanley (in most cases) existing tools and improves upon them, keeping most of the existing traits. Veritas, on the other hand, goes a step further and takes the "idea" of the tool, and creates their own version. The big difference in planes is the set screws, Norris style adjusters, different handle style (old version- now offer a more "Stanley-like" new version handle on their custom planes), and a more modern overall look.

I am not sure who said it- Rob Lee or Tom Lie-Nielsen, apologies to both- but one of them said that Lie Nielsen is like classical music, and Veritas is like Jazz. Both are good. Both are technical, and both have their qualities, but one is classical, and one a more modern interpretation.

Henceforth I will use LN to refer to Lie-Nielsen, and LV to refer to Lee Valley/Veritas to save my fingers from typing.

Now, me personally- I have chosen both brands. My first purchase in the high-end tools was a LN 97 1/2 block plane, and wow the difference from my Stanley. Ahh yes, I now saw the reason to pay top $ for tools, and set out to upgrade my entire collection one by one. My choices were based in part on price, in part on quality, and in part on specific features offered by each maker. Here's the list, from memory, many probably excluded due to my mind being a steel trap... that is- nothing gets out. :-)

Lie Nielsen:

Small scraping plane- because theirs is bronze, and I'll say it once but it applies to all bronze tools- I live in the tropics, bronze doesn't rust. It is also heavier and I like heavier.
Cabinet scraping plane- because it is a rabbeting design and I wanted to get up to the edge on lapstrakes in boatbuilding, but also in cabinet making to get to edges... which it turns out I never need to do, but great marketing, LN. I kind of wish I had gotten the standard scraping plane.
#2 and #4 bronze- see note above about bronze. Also I like the Bedrock design better, although this was before Veritas offered customizable planes, which I have yet to try. I still would probably go with LN because of the bronze.
Small low angle block plane... ummm... I think it's designated the 103, can't remember. Because bronze! Also smaller than the 62 1/2 and easier for doing small wood strips which is what I mostly do, and it fits better in the apron.
Chisels- full set of bevel and mortice- because I like the interchangeable handles, the quality that I could depend on (Veritas at the time had JUST come out with their chisels, and ultimately I went with LN because of reputation- BOTH BRANDS ARE EXCELLENT- just my choice) LOVE the mortice chisels especially- hefty, mean business. I do wish LN offered something larger in their bevel edge chisels. I would like to have a wider chisel for tasks like defining the edge of hinge mortices. Ultimately I will probably get a set of LV butt chisels just to get that wider blade.
Chisels- fishtail and skewed- Does LV make a fishtail? I don't think they do, but anyway I had LN already, and also I like that I can get the long handles for the fishtails and skews. I think LV does sell skewed chisels, but I am very happy with LN, and went with the brand and, yes- matchy matchy won. I hate to admit, but sometimes if all else similar, you go with the ones that match what you already have. Don't tell anyone. I hate matchy matchy people. I do love the hornbeam handles as well.
Screwdriver set- because I hate when the screw heads strip from using a just slightly too small screwdriver. I love these things.
Tenon saw- I believe it's 16", and hands-down would prefer LN to LV. Brass back, flamed maple handle. Bliss. I wanted a REALLY good tenon saw, and this is it.
Scrapers- because I was making an order and had some extra $, but really a scraper is a scraper (not a scraping plane, but just a scraper blade that you hold in your hand). That said, I think my curved scraper was from LV. Not sure.




Veritas:

Low angle Jack, Smoother, Jointer- Because here is where if you get one brand, you need to stick with it so you can use one set of blades. I have tons of blades including three 25 degree, two 38 degree, I believe I have one at 45 or some higher angle, and the toothed blade for figured woods, which I use all the time. The main reason for going Veritas: The fence for the Jointer, the japanning on the sides (tropics-rust- same as bronze reasoning) and the price was a bit less for what I saw as the same quality. I love these, and since getting the jointer, I don't think I have once used my Stanley No. 7 or No 6. Same goes, in fact, for the No. 5 versus the bevel up LV. I do use other smothers, but since I currently don't have a high-angle frog for my LN #4 (probably my favorite smoother), I use this smoother for fancy grain.
Shooting Plane- because it's a work of art, and also in my opinion it's the best shooting plane out there. It is heavy,has an adjustable handle, skewed blade, and set screws. It's just pretty to look at. Sometimes I take it out just to look at it.
Set of rabbeting block planes- my favorite planes. I use them all the time. I love, love, LOVE these!!! They were cheaper than the LN, so even though I would love to have the bronze LN, I went with Veritas. They also have the set screws, and on a rabetting plane that is important, because it is hard to get the blade set just right without those. (like when you take it out to sharpen it and put it back in)
Large shoulder plane- Cheaper than LN, high quality, and I liked the bubinga knobs versus the LN handle. I also like the set screws. It turns out to be rather cumbersome, and I will soon get a medium.
Bullnose shoulder plane- Because really I wanted a chisel plane, but this gives both, as the bullnose is removeable. Also as mentioned above, the large shoulder plane was more cumbersome than expected, and I really wanted a medium, but I got this instead for versatility.
Router plane- Friggin love this thing, and the whole kit with the string inlay tools is why I went with LV over LN. No regrets whatsoever.
Beading tool- because of price mainly, and I hate to admit this- but because it matches the set of spokeshaves! Yes- matchy matchy, I hate myself. Also I liked the fence and thought it looked easier to register. I don't, however, like the push versus pull stroke.
Full set of spokeshaves- Because (a.) I love bubinga handles (b.) Price (c.) Joe O'blenis (Joe O' Paddles) raved about his, and I respect his opinion, and (d) Really just as good as the LN, although I sure do like the bronze LN. Just can't afford.
Dovetail saw, crosscut carcass saw- because of price. I much prefer LN. The spine on the LV does flex. I use the LV saws as my go-to for basic projects, and I have other high-end saws that are for special projects. Won't mention those here to keep it just LN versus LV I do highly recommend LV saws and use them often, but my preference if money were no object would be LN.
Honing jig with angle guide- because I love theirs. I find nobody has really made one that covers all bases, but LV is the most well-rounded that I personally have used, and I have used many.
Marking gauge- love the round marking gauges with the wheels. I think LN also sells similar, but LV won me on free shipping if I remember correctly.
Striking knife- I think I got this one on eBay and it was cheap, so I bought it. Like it much better than the ceramic one I have, but not as much as the Japanese one.



I am sure there are others that I am missing here, but basically each tool I chose one or the other mainly because of certain features, or if all else relatively equal, then I chose on price. You can go all LN, or all LV, or a mix of the two, and either way you still have great tools.

[bob blakeborough]

Prefer the Lie-Nielsen handles (a no brainer, the standard handles on older LV planes suck, they really, really need to make some of the newer handles for their new robo-plane available for the older planes,) but prefer the LV tools in general.I disagree in that I prefer the LV handles. I have both LN and LV bench planes and I find the LV handles make my hands less sore over time. That said your experience is different. My problem is a blanket statement that LV handles really suck. That is very misleading to someone as they do not suck for everyone...

[John Coloccia]

I didn't realize there was some sort of contest here. I use both LN and LV tools. Like every other tool in my shop, I evaluate the individual tool and make my decision. Brand loyalty is stupid, IMHO. The only place it makes sense is when you have a system, like Festool, and everything kind of works with everything else. Then, you might sacrifice a feature or quality here and there because the advantages vastly outweigh the tiny disadvantages (though it's hard to think of a feature or quality you'd sacrifice with Festool!).

[Patrick Bernardo]

I wouldn't think of it as a contest, but neither do I get out to tool shows very often. They're rare here where I am, and require a heck of a drive - I drive an F150 and that means GAS. I know that I could order one of each from both companies and then try them, but I'm really not that kind of guy.

It does mean something to me to hear the opinions of people on this board, whom I respect for the no-BS kind of answers.

[Chris Hachet]

Okay, here are my thoughts first in short, then in more detail: In sort- you really can't go wrong with either. They are both the best in the business and for a reason- quality, design, and customer service being top reasons.

That said, the long of the story: Lie Nielsen specifically takes Stanley (in most cases) existing tools and improves upon them, keeping most of the existing traits. Veritas, on the other hand, goes a step further and takes the "idea" of the tool, and creates their own version. The big difference in planes is the set screws, Norris style adjusters, different handle style (old version- now offer a more "Stanley-like" new version handle on their custom planes), and a more modern overall look.

I am not sure who said it- Rob Lee or Tom Lie-Nielsen, apologies to both- but one of them said that Lie Nielsen is like classical music, and Veritas is like Jazz. Both are good. Both are technical, and both have their qualities, but one is classical, and one a more modern interpretation.

Henceforth I will use LN to refer to Lie-Nielsen, and LV to refer to Lee Valley/Veritas to save my fingers from typing.

Now, me personally- I have chosen both brands. My first purchase in the high-end tools was a LN 97 1/2 block plane, and wow the difference from my Stanley. Ahh yes, I now saw the reason to pay top $ for tools, and set out to upgrade my entire collection one by one. My choices were based in part on price, in part on quality, and in part on specific features offered by each maker. Here's the list, from memory, many probably excluded due to my mind being a steel trap... that is- nothing gets out. :-)

Lie Nielsen:

Small scraping plane- because theirs is bronze, and I'll say it once but it applies to all bronze tools- I live in the tropics, bronze doesn't rust. It is also heavier and I like heavier.
Cabinet scraping plane- because it is a rabbeting design and I wanted to get up to the edge on lapstrakes in boatbuilding, but also in cabinet making to get to edges... which it turns out I never need to do, but great marketing, LN. I kind of wish I had gotten the standard scraping plane.
#2 and #4 bronze- see note above about bronze. Also I like the Bedrock design better, although this was before Veritas offered customizable planes, which I have yet to try. I still would probably go with LN because of the bronze.
Small low angle block plane... ummm... I think it's designated the 103, can't remember. Because bronze! Also smaller than the 62 1/2 and easier for doing small wood strips which is what I mostly do, and it fits better in the apron.
Chisels- full set of bevel and mortice- because I like the interchangeable handles, the quality that I could depend on (Veritas at the time had JUST come out with their chisels, and ultimately I went with LN because of reputation- BOTH BRANDS ARE EXCELLENT- just my choice) LOVE the mortice chisels especially- hefty, mean business. I do wish LN offered something larger in their bevel edge chisels. I would like to have a wider chisel for tasks like defining the edge of hinge mortices. Ultimately I will probably get a set of LV butt chisels just to get that wider blade.
Chisels- fishtail and skewed- Does LV make a fishtail? I don't think they do, but anyway I had LN already, and also I like that I can get the long handles for the fishtails and skews. I think LV does sell skewed chisels, but I am very happy with LN, and went with the brand and, yes- matchy matchy won. I hate to admit, but sometimes if all else similar, you go with the ones that match what you already have. Don't tell anyone. I hate matchy matchy people. I do love the hornbeam handles as well.
Screwdriver set- because I hate when the screw heads strip from using a just slightly too small screwdriver. I love these things.
Tenon saw- I believe it's 16", and hands-down would prefer LN to LV. Brass back, flamed maple handle. Bliss. I wanted a REALLY good tenon saw, and this is it.
Scrapers- because I was making an order and had some extra $, but really a scraper is a scraper (not a scraping plane, but just a scraper blade that you hold in your hand). That said, I think my curved scraper was from LV. Not sure.




Veritas:

Low angle Jack, Smoother, Jointer- Because here is where if you get one brand, you need to stick with it so you can use one set of blades. I have tons of blades including three 25 degree, two 38 degree, I believe I have one at 45 or some higher angle, and the toothed blade for figured woods, which I use all the time. The main reason for going Veritas: The fence for the Jointer, the japanning on the sides (tropics-rust- same as bronze reasoning) and the price was a bit less for what I saw as the same quality. I love these, and since getting the jointer, I don't think I have once used my Stanley No. 7 or No 6. Same goes, in fact, for the No. 5 versus the bevel up LV. I do use other smothers, but since I currently don't have a high-angle frog for my LN #4 (probably my favorite smoother), I use this smoother for fancy grain.
Shooting Plane- because it's a work of art, and also in my opinion it's the best shooting plane out there. It is heavy,has an adjustable handle, skewed blade, and set screws. It's just pretty to look at. Sometimes I take it out just to look at it.
Set of rabbeting block planes- my favorite planes. I use them all the time. I love, love, LOVE these!!! They were cheaper than the LN, so even though I would love to have the bronze LN, I went with Veritas. They also have the set screws, and on a rabetting plane that is important, because it is hard to get the blade set just right without those. (like when you take it out to sharpen it and put it back in)
Large shoulder plane- Cheaper than LN, high quality, and I liked the bubinga knobs versus the LN handle. I also like the set screws. It turns out to be rather cumbersome, and I will soon get a medium.
Bullnose shoulder plane- Because really I wanted a chisel plane, but this gives both, as the bullnose is removeable. Also as mentioned above, the large shoulder plane was more cumbersome than expected, and I really wanted a medium, but I got this instead for versatility.
Router plane- Friggin love this thing, and the whole kit with the string inlay tools is why I went with LV over LN. No regrets whatsoever.
Beading tool- because of price mainly, and I hate to admit this- but because it matches the set of spokeshaves! Yes- matchy matchy, I hate myself. Also I liked the fence and thought it looked easier to register. I don't, however, like the push versus pull stroke.
Full set of spokeshaves- Because (a.) I love bubinga handles (b.) Price (c.) Joe O'blenis (Joe O' Paddles) raved about his, and I respect his opinion, and (d) Really just as good as the LN, although I sure do like the bronze LN. Just can't afford.
Dovetail saw, crosscut carcass saw- because of price. I much prefer LN. The spine on the LV does flex. I use the LV saws as my go-to for basic projects, and I have other high-end saws that are for special projects. Won't mention those here to keep it just LN versus LV I do highly recommend LV saws and use them often, but my preference if money were no object would be LN.
Honing jig with angle guide- because I love theirs. I find nobody has really made one that covers all bases, but LV is the most well-rounded that I personally have used, and I have used many.
Marking gauge- love the round marking gauges with the wheels. I think LN also sells similar, but LV won me on free shipping if I remember correctly.
Striking knife- I think I got this one on eBay and it was cheap, so I bought it. Like it much better than the ceramic one I have, but not as much as the Japanese one.



I am sure there are others that I am missing here, but basically each tool I chose one or the other mainly because of certain features, or if all else relatively equal, then I chose on price. You can go all LN, or all LV, or a mix of the two, and either way you still have great tools.


I have the Lie Nielson saws, do like them much better than the Veritas.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I wouldn't think of it as a contest, but neither do I get out to tool shows very often. They're rare here where I am, and require a heck of a drive - I drive an F150 and that means GAS. I know that I could order one of each from both companies and then try them, but I'm really not that kind of guy.

It does mean something to me to hear the opinions of people on this board, whom I respect for the no-BS kind of answers.


I am in the same boat. I depend on forums and you tube videos to get input from others when making a purchase. That's what prompted me to share the admittedly long-winded list of tools and reasons for choosing each. I have no access to fine tools in person. Everything is mail order for me.

[Chris Hachet]

I am in the same boat. I depend on forums and you tube videos to get input from others when making a purchase. That's what prompted me to share the admittedly long-winded list of tools and reasons for choosing each. I have no access to fine tools in person. Everything is mail order for me.


...and I found your list helpful.

[Rick Fisher]

I have 2 LN planes and about 4-5 Veritas. I like the look and feel of LN better. I just ordered a large router plane, and went Veritas.

I promised myself the next plane I bought would be a LN.. but the Vertias had features and accessories which appealed.. So my next plane will be a LN. lol

[ian maybury]

I don't have LN stuff, but set up several Lee Valley BU planes in recent months. The 100% rock solid quality (consistent steel characteristics, very flat blade backs, flat soles, flat and square sides and well fitted adjusters etc) has been really impressive - as has the performance. Presuming the LN is as good (and as consistently accurate) then both have to be really good quality tools. This might suggest that any choice between them is likely to be down to stuff like price and matching needs/preferences to the specs/design differences between specific tools.

[Chris Hachet]

I have 2 LN planes and about 4-5 Veritas. I like the look and feel of LN better. I just ordered a large router plane, and went Veritas.

I promised myself the next plane I bought would be a LN.. but the Vertias had features and accessories which appealed.. So my next plane will be a LN. lol

I have the Veritas router plane, and it works really well.

[Chris Hachet]

I don't have LN stuff, but set up several Lee Valley BU planes in recent months. The 100% rock solid accuracy (consistent steel characteristics, very flat blade backs, flat soles, flat and square sides and well fitted adjusters etc) have been really impressive - as has the performance. Presuming the LN is as good (and as consistently accurate) then both have to be really good quality tools. This might suggest that any choice between them is likely to be down to stuff like price and matching needs/preferences to the specs/design differences between specific tools.


They are both excellent tools. I am just enjoying the slightly more innovative feel of the LV stuff at the moment. That will possibly change when I break down and buy the LN #3 in bronze, which I have been lusting after for a couple of years.

[Brian Holcombe]

I use a lot of LN, and I enjoy most of it, but realized at some point along the way that I needed to begin to deviate for many tools.

I have some Blue Spruce, in fact; a marking gauge, marking knife, set of paring chisels and a couple mallets. I find the dedicated paring chisels from Blue Spruce to outperform a LN chisel with a paring handle. There are differences between the two, well beyond the handle that are nice to have for the job of paring. My Blue Spruce paring chisels are actually a medium length handle because I bought them specifically for tight spaces.

So there are a lot of brands/makers to consider, some well ahead of LN/LV in many cases. Koyamaichi, Mitsukawa, Ray Iles, Blue Spruce, HNT Gordon, Woodjoy and some that I'm forgetting I'm sure.

[Stewie Simpson]

Its breathtaking how the grain structure of hard and soft woods have dramatically change over recent years.

We now being told by greater minds than ours that we now require a vast assortment of bench planes to even cope.

This must include a good assortment of bevel up & bevel down planes. A range of different frogs to alter the bed angle. And of course a good mix of irons at different bevel angles.

Its my good fortune that I mainly work with much older timbers. So the choice of which bench plane to use is comparatively far less complicated.

Must go. I need to go and invest some money in Veritas shares. Their projected sales over the next 1 to 2 years looks very impressive.

[Sean Hughto]

It doesn't seem to be a particularly recent thing: http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html

One can do excellent work with a simple kit. On the other hand, extra alternatives can be very helpful in addressing certain situations.

[John Coloccia]

I like using the right tool for the job. If you can afford it and/or it makes you money, why would I make something any harder than it needs to be? I'm all about results and making things easy on myself.

[Sean Hughto]

Stewie, do I need one of these in my assortment in order to accomplish chamfers?

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/stopped%20chamfer%20plane/DSC_0418_zps83bd786d.jpg

Oh, yeah, Veritas offers this:

http://www.leevalley.com/US/images/item/woodworking/planes/05p2210s2.jpg

I see why you would want their stock. :p

[David Weaver]

We now being told by greater minds than ours that we now require a vast assortment of bench planes to even cope.


Fortunately that hasn't been the case for a couple of years now. The bloggers may advocate buying all kinds of trinkets, but in your absence here a few of us have been beating the drum that a set of common bench planes is as easy to use and just as productive (or more so) than an entire array of stuff, as long as one is willing to understand using the cap iron. It takes less time to understand and learn the cap iron to a functional level than it does to order, ponder and unbox all of the specialty planes.

The only thing lacking about a stanley plane is squareness.

299825299826

I trimmed the end grain on these, front and back (after handsawing all except the jointer on the left) with a stanley #4. I actually have found it easier to use a stanley 4 to do that (and on moulding planes and panel ends) than to use a BU jack. The stanley just doesn't have as much surface contact because it's functionally flat but not perfectly flat. Running an absolutely perfectly flat plane across end grain is sort of like putting a shoe on and running your foot across very stiff carpet. It would be easier to do with less contact area (and endgrain does have some strong grip).

Functionally, I have no idea what good it does to have a high angle frog on a metal plane. It only serves to make the plane less useful and less capable in most situations.

[Stewie Simpson]

Hi David. You may have misunderstood my post.

Timber; whether its old or new has not evolved any differently over time in grain structure.

So the tools that were being used successfully years ago will work just as well now.

Stewie;

[David Weaver]

I agree. It's taken a while until the general sentiment got there.

I'll bet a lot of people thought the irons on the old planes were "soft and not very good".

I've seen posts on here often about how the old tools have limitations and the new tools are a lot better but "we can do good work with old tools if we understand their limitations".

To the extent that the older tools have gotten into a state of disrepair or need refurbishment (especially on wooden planes that might need a new wedge and a handle glued, and rust removed from the iron), that's partially true. But the underlying hardness of old steel, for example, is not limiting at all. It's the users that believe there is some large difference between new and old tools who are limited, and that's OK if a user is new. People often don't like to believe that they are the limitation and not the tool.

That's separate apart from the issue of just having nice things, which is perfectly fine. Most of the boutique makers wouldn't sell anything if it weren't for just "having nice things", because it would be pretty easy for me to instruct someone on how they can turn a $25 vintage plane into a champ if they were willing to learn to flatten the bottom, refurbish the iron and fit a new wedge (and learn to use the double iron).

Have no fear, though, I undertsand lie nielsen is still recommending people should get the high frogs instead of learning to use the superior cap iron method.

[george wilson]

I used only old irons for many years when I was in public in the Musical Instrument Maker's Shop in Williamsburg. I continue to use them. The ones that a fine,new file could BARELY cut a little worked the best for me. Nothing wrong with the old irons. Wooden planes slide more easily over the wood,too.

[Derek Cohen]

What wood do you generally work with, David? I guarantee that if you lived in Perth you would have a different opinion about tool steels. There are many other woods that have similar abrasiveness. You should not make sweeping generalisations about steel.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Bernardo]

I'm also a homebrewer, and read a couple of forums related to that as well. I see the same tendency that I see here: for whatever reason, certain people really can't get over the idea that other people don't mind spending a little money to have something that they like. There's this internet forum bias toward doing things in the cheapest manner possible, so that anytime a thread comes up related to something that is commercially produced at commercially viable prices, there's a giant pile-on about how it can be done cheaper.

Note: nobody on this thread claimed that the new manufacturers made better bench planes than the vintage ones. Nobody claimed that high angle frogs were necessary. Nobody even brought up the new Veritas line. Nobody claimed that contemporary steel was better than vintage. But you have a thread that even mentions a modern maker, and it fills with the same ol', same ol'. This thread is of course dead now. I guess it never stood a chance.

Maybe some people just want to discuss the brands. What's wrong with that?

And also, Malcolm, I do appreciate your list. It was complete and thoughtful.

[David Weaver]

Derek, i take a heavier shaving. I work with cherry, beech, maple, and occasionally cocobolo.

I used to think that I needed high speed steel when dimensioning cocobolo blanks from rough, but I put that to rest in the last two years. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have any problem with the double iron using old tool steels. I may have a different opinion about single irons because they lose their desire to stay in the cut at an earlier point in edge wear.

I'm pretty sure that if I'm using stanley irons to dimension cocobolo, I would come to the same conclusion with most of the australian woods. And, that's considering that I was absolutely convinced before the double iron that it was impossible to work cocobolo with vintage irons. It's not, I'm more than happy to make the generalization.

Now, where would a situation arise where there was a significant difference? Probably in a single iron plane or a plane where I wasn't using a cap iron and where I was trying to take as many one thousandth plane shavings as I could. That's makework and I don't do it now.

(I'll add a second aside, I excavated the entire mortise in the cocobolo smoother show above with a pexto chisel. It is the equivalent of a stanley 750. I also only sharpened any tools I used on that particular billet with a washita stone and no abrasives after that. I had to resharpen the pexto chisel in that large plane mortise one time, and then I did the same again when I was done. What I found was that where in your instance of studies and such, you may find a vintage steel to fail at the same angle that a harder steel may not - for example at 30 degrees or some such thing in heavy work. What I found was that adding a couple of degrees eliminated the damage. In the past, I concluded the same thing, that the old and the new (where the new are japanese chisels) are miles apart, but in fact they are only a couple of degrees apart. And in the woods where they are a couple of degrees apart, it is no issue to add a few degrees because those woods are not that sensitive to a few extra degrees).

Part of the trouble with the studies on your page is that you come to a single conclusion via experiment, and many people in the US come to that conclusion via reading, but they are working with far different woods. The conclusion for their woods is not necessarily the same. But then the second conclusions is that "it won't work on australian woods", but that's not the case, either. It won't work under the exact same conditions may be an appropriate conclusion, but to say that it won't work is not correct. And the conditions where it doesn't work are not much different than those where it does (it being vintage steel).

It is an issue of familiarity with the tools, and not the tools.

I find it perfectly fine to prefer something else, but I find the generalization that vintage steels don't work well on very hard woods to be more incorrect than saying that they do.

Lest cocobolo is pointed out to be a wood that is not that hard, some additional reading is required. The early wood in cocobolo is soft, but the latewood is over 3000 on the janka test, so the orientation of the planing or testing or chiseling or whatever is dependent on the orientation of the wood at the time. And you can't get away from chiseling or planing the latewood if you are hand dimensioning all four sides of a billet, and especially if you are mortising into the side the tests in the 3000 range.

[Stewie Simpson]

What you say is indeed correct George. Wooden planes do provide a burnished effect that no steel soled plane can ever replicate.

During the 1950s my father served his apprenticeship as a Carpenter and Joiner in Scotland under the tutelage of a certified Master Craftsman. Not once was he allowed to use anything other than a wooden soled plane for this very reason.

A long time has passed since then. As such, we are to now take heed and listen to the modern generation of enthusiasts who will openly advice us that they have a much greater understanding of how things should have been done, in mindful contradiction to that taught and understood by much earlier generations of craftsmen.

[Sean Hughto]

Here, I'll try to add something on-topic and perhaps useful to some. I have used the alternatives offered by both in only a couple instances: block planes and router planes.

The LV block plane performs great and feels good in the hand. But my personal favorite block plane is LN's rabbet block. For the kind of work I do, the full width feature is just useful to me in so many instances. For example, I recently made a box that I cut apart and then installed a liner. shaving the liner for a really sweet fit of the top was trivially easy with the rabbet block's ability to ride on it's side and take a clean shaving all the way into the corner. I post this picture to make clearer what I mean - imagine shaving the ebony with a block riding on its side on the pear edge so that the top slides perfectly over the ebony insert.
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3946/15578568092_04167fca61_z.jpg

I also happen to have both LV and LN's full size router planes. The LN feels a bit more robust in use, but I like the LV for the fence. I could get by with either, but likely would chose the LV if I could only have one due the the fence.
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3113/3123676229_5290b2917d_z.jpg?zz=1

[Derek Cohen]

For goodness sake, David, do you not read the comparative testing with different steels? The old Stanley irons may be fine for you, but there is no way that they are as durable as more modern steels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Edit: apology Sean, we posted at the same time.

[Chris Hachet]

Its breathtaking how the grain structure of hard and soft woods have dramatically change over recent years.

We now being told by greater minds than ours that we now require a vast assortment of bench planes to even cope.

This must include a good assortment of bevel up & bevel down planes. A range of different frogs to alter the bed angle. And of course a good mix of irons at different bevel angles.

Its my good fortune that I mainly work with much older timbers. So the choice of which bench plane to use is comparatively far less complicated.

Must go. I need to go and invest some money in Veritas shares. Their projected sales over the next 1 to 2 years looks very impressive.

....Ever since I quit my expensive hobby of automotive racing I have had a little extra cash to burn. I enjoy good tools. however, I got by on old Stanley stuff from flea markets for decades before I started buying the fancy stuff. Your point is well made...

[David Weaver]

For goodness sake, David, do you not read the comparative testing with different steels? The old Stanley irons may be fine for you, but there is no way that they are as durable as more modern steels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, I addressed this. I used to believe the same thing. A few degrees puts them back in the same range. I haven't found it to take any longer to do anything using vintage steels than I did when I had intentionally bought high speed steels for cocobolo and ebony billets several years ago (and at that time, I thought they were absolutely necessary).

I would encourage you to revise your test on your webpage to include what angle you find the vintage steels to lose their desire to fail easily. If you're testing VII at 30 degrees and finding it to work well, you'll find the vintage steels failing at 30 will suddenly become very competent at 32 or 33.

There probably isn't a chisel steel that you have used that I haven't, maybe with the exception of VII (but I have HAP 40 and semi HSS, so i have a pretty good idea of how they would do) - and I have used VII in two separate blades.

(I am not saying this just to be a thorn, I'm saying it because it's what I have found to be true, and I do think, as I mentioned above that it's somewhat irrelevant for a person who is working a lot of cherry and walnut and soft maple, etc, to worry about how their tools would have to be set up or what they'd have to be made of to work woods that are janka 1800-2500 )

[Chris Hachet]

I used only old irons for many years when I was in public in the Musical Instrument Maker's Shop in Williamsburg. I continue to use them. The ones that a fine,new file could BARELY cut a little worked the best for me. Nothing wrong with the old irons. Wooden planes slide more easily over the wood,too.

Hence why I have a number of wood planes in my shop.

[Chris Hachet]

What you say is indeed correct George. Wooden planes do provide a burnished effect that no steel soled plane can ever replicate.

During the 1950s my father served his apprenticeship as a Carpenter and Joiner in Scotland under the tutelage of a certified Master Craftsman. Not once was he allowed to use anything other than a wooden soled plane for this very reason.

A long time has passed since then. As such, we are to now take heed and listen to the modern generation of enthusiasts who will openly advice us that they have a much greater understanding of how things should have been done, in mindful contradiction to that taught and understood by much earlier generations of craftsmen.

I wish I could have apprenticed under a master carpenter or cabinetmaker like that. I have spent 30 years learning what I would have learned in three.

[Stewie Simpson]

I wish I could have apprenticed under a master carpenter or cabinetmaker like that. I have spent 30 years learning what I would have learned in three.

Hi Chris. It was a 5 year apprenticeship.

[Chris Hachet]

I'm also a homebrewer, and read a couple of forums related to that as well. I see the same tendency that I see here: for whatever reason, certain people really can't get over the idea that other people don't mind spending a little money to have something that they like. There's this internet forum bias toward doing things in the cheapest manner possible, so that anytime a thread comes up related to something that is commercially produced at commercially viable prices, there's a giant pile-on about how it can be done cheaper.

Note: nobody on this thread claimed that the new manufacturers made better bench planes than the vintage ones. Nobody claimed that high angle frogs were necessary. Nobody even brought up the new Veritas line. Nobody claimed that contemporary steel was better than vintage. But you have a thread that even mentions a modern maker, and it fills with the same ol', same ol'. This thread is of course dead now. I guess it never stood a chance.

Maybe some people just want to discuss the brands. What's wrong with that?

And also, Malcolm, I do appreciate your list. It was complete and thoughtful.

As a lover of automobiles, I also know people with 40 cars. Excessive, yes....but when it comes to tools and horsepower, one can never quite have enough, I am afraid.

[Jim Koepke]

This might suggest that any choice between them is likely to be down to stuff like price and matching needs/preferences to the specs/design differences between specific tools.

This has been the case for my choices.

If a new router plane were on my shopping list it would be the Veritas.

On other items is is on a case by case basis.

jtk

[george wilson]

Just to be clearer,I have used vintage planes for many years. But,they are subject to variable quality control,more than modern steels. I have even found Addis carving tools that are either too hard or too soft. Evaluating metals back then was much more subject to reliance upon an experienced individual than ours is today. Little was known about chemistry. Furnaces did not have modern methods of temperature control,etc..

People worked very long hours 6 days a week,and were subject to being over tired. Drinking was common. So was corruption. Possibly what sank the Titanic was cheap steel substituted for what was specified. The truth may never be known. During the building of the Great Eastern,900 tons of steel vanished from a shipyard.

It is no wonder that I had to pick and choose every plane I ended up using. Every chisel too. I did find good ones,but I bought quite a few planes back in the 70's and 80's,when they could be had for $10.00 in the Pennsylvania flea markets. Today,flea markets up there are very dissapointing. Everything is on Ebay,I guess.

There were no steels that are comparable with what we have today. Especially the new powdered metals.Many of the old planes were quite usable,and many old masterpieces were made with them. That is not to say that we don't have better steels available today.

[Norb Schmidt]

Except its definitely Coke, Chocolate & Bourbon......

[Sean Hughto]

Actually it's pour the bourbon in the coke and have a chocolate vanilla soft swirl and make sure there's scotch guard on the couch ...
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3469/3354647916_7d5c6e017a_b.jpg

[Brian Holcombe]

What you say is indeed correct George. Wooden planes do provide a burnished effect that no steel soled plane can ever replicate.

During the 1950s my father served his apprenticeship as a Carpenter and Joiner in Scotland under the tutelage of a certified Master Craftsman. Not once was he allowed to use anything other than a wooden soled plane for this very reason.

A long time has passed since then. As such, we are to now take heed and listen to the modern generation of enthusiasts who will openly advice us that they have a much greater understanding of how things should have been done, in mindful contradiction to that taught and understood by much earlier generations of craftsmen.

I think its better that the information be out there than not, it brings the subject back into debate which is beneficial to those who want to improve their skills. Otherwise there is no impetus for telling about wooden planes and other method.

[Shawn Pixley]

I have no particular brand loyalty. Hence, I don't have to choose. I like some by LN, some by LV, and some by others. Pick what makes you happy. My preference is not necessarily related to your preference. Nor should it be.

[Shawn Pixley]

Maybe it is just me. We (collectively) seem to spend an inordinate amount of time to convert others to our viewpoints. There are many on this board I hold in very high esteem who are able to create excellent results with their very different preferences in tools and techniques. Isn't that enough? Why must we seek to convert others? Do we need only one view?

Will we next be debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

[Malcolm Schweizer]

According to biblical accounts of angels, they are similar in height to humans, so unless it is a very large pin, then none could dance on it, except that it be placed in the ground and he kept one toe on it as he danced, but I wouldn't count that. That said, you didn't say how many angels could dance on the head of a pin AT THE SAME TIME. Now in that case, then all of them could. According to Revelation 5:11 there are at least 10,000 times 10,000. Although likely metaphorically said, one could deduce by this that at least 100,000,000 Angels could dance on the head of a pin.

[Bill Houghton]

Showing my age here...I immediately thought, "Chevy vs. Ford; Homelite vs. McCullough." But those particular religious arguments got settled years ago, the first when Toyota, Honda, and others expanded the pool of choices, and the second, similarly, when Husqvarna, Poulan, etc. got things all cornfused.

[paul cottingham]

I admit, part of the reason I prefer LV is because I can drive tothe local one and buy what I need. The fact that they are more econonomical is also a big deal for me. I also prefer the LV designs.

[Jim Koepke]

Although likely metaphorically said, one could deduce by this that at least 100,000,000 Angels could dance on the head of a pin.

Malcolm,

That is only accounting for the softer steels like O1 or W1. Some of the new harder steels could accommodate a lot more dancing before being obliterated into nothingness.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Maybe it is just me. We (collectively) seem to spend an inordinate amount of time to convert others to our viewpoints. There are many on this board I hold in very high esteem who are able to create excellent results with their very different preferences in tools and techniques. Isn't that enough? Why must we seek to convert others? Do we need only one view?

Will we next be debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

I don't get that feeling from too many of the posts. Most of the time I try to make it clear my opinion or preference is just that.

In my way of thinking it is more important for the worker to be happy with the tools they use/have/purchase than it is to have the hip factor some folks try to place on one tool over the other. Especially when they do the same thing and the difference is only cosmetic.

I know some people are appalled at the idea of a plane's adjustment mechanism having any backlash or a more technical term, slop. To me, it isn't a big deal and it can be used at times to my own advantage.

Some like shiny bling and that is just as valid a choice as those who like a patina of age.

After all is done those half blind dovetails will not reveal whether they were pared with a Blue Spruce or a Stanley #60.

[Shawn Pixley]

Please understand that I am not upset in the least by this. But there are many ways to accomplish the end results. I just find it a bit pointless over all the effort of members to convert other members to their single point of view.

To pick an alternative analogy, it becomes a bit like comparing Greene & Greene houses, Frank Lloyd Wright houses, Josef Hoffman houses, and Richard Neutra houses. All completely different and sometimes a rejection of the others' style. But each is excellent. Everyone will have a different subjective opinion, but you can never get all to agree. Nor need you.

Like you, I am fine with others going in a different direction.

[Patrick Bernardo]

Holy cow. Nice set up. Is that woodie on the right a panel raiser? Shopbuilt? Is the Jack Rabbet (I think that's what it is) Lie Nielsen?

[Sean Hughto]

Yes, a panel raiser. No, not shop made. Leon Robbins.

The 10 is vintage stanley. I hunted one down because Aldren Watson liked em in Handtools. It's been useful from time to time, but not really necessary if you have other planes that can handle rabbets.

[Paul Sidener]

I don't see a reason to choose. They both make quality tools. Buy what you like. It is for you, not anyone else. What does it matter what anyone else thinks.

[Chris Hachet]

I don't see a reason to choose. They both make quality tools. Buy what you like. It is for you, not anyone else. What does it matter what anyone else thinks.


I like both of their tools. My only real thought is that I am really enjoying the more modern and updated vibe of the LV stuff, plus I like the PMV-11 blade steel.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I don't see a reason to choose. They both make quality tools. Buy what you like. It is for you, not anyone else. What does it matter what anyone else thinks.

Certainly you can't go wrong with either brand, but as for why it matters what others think, it's about making an informed buying decision. It is wise to ask for the opinions of others, then make an informed decision based on that and what you yourself feel is best.

[Prashun Patel]

I usually buy Veritas between the two, but honestly it comes down to price most of the time; Veritas is usually just a few critical dollars less for many of the apples-to-apples tools.

Both companies have well-designed tools, and any differences in ergonomics are usually lost on my relatively inexperienced hands.

I do get the impression that the tools LN distributes but doesn't make (Bogg's spokeshaves) are as high quality as the other tools it manufactures itself. The distributed lines that Lee Valley sells can sometimes be amazing values, but not in the same quality league as Veritas.

Both are impressive companies with impressive founders/owners. They take genuine pride in quality and innovation (it's not just an overused tagline for either) and I hope both continue to thrive.

[Brian Holcombe]

The boggs shaves and Auriou rasps are very high quality. My only gripe with the shaves are that the mouth is too tight.

[Mike Henderson]

The boggs shaves and Auriou rasps are very high quality. My only gripe with the shaves are that the mouth is too tight.
The mouth on the Boggs shaves is tight. But I see that as a good thing because I use that shave as a "finish" shave. I have other shaves that I use for rough shaping - those have a more open mouth.

I remember the first time I used a Boggs shave - a friend lent me his when I was doing some Windsor chairs. I was just amazed at how nicely the Boggs shave worked. I went out and bought my own.

Mike

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Mike. It makes a very fine cut, so I may have to play with the shaving thickness to optimize it. It regularly wraps shavings around the mouth at current.

[Paul Sidener]

Certainly you can't go wrong with either brand, but as for why it matters what others think, it's about making an informed buying decision. It is wise to ask for the opinions of others, then make an informed decision based on that and what you yourself feel is best.

Like I said, they both make quality tools that do the same jobs. The OP was thinking he was going to get some argument.


...and yes, I know those are fighting words around here.

I own tools from both. Other than appearance, there isn't much to argue about. They both do the job they were designed to do.

[Mike Brady]

I do get the impression that the tools LN distributes but doesn't make (Bogg's spokeshaves)



Actually Lie-Nielsen makes and markets the Boggs spoke shaves for Brian Boggs. Brian provided the design and undoubtedly has a royalty arrangement with Lie-Nielsen. I believe L-N is not the original maker of Boggs shaves as I remember Brian commenting about changing makers quite a few years ago. It might have been Lee Valley, but don't hold me to that.

[Brian Kincaid]

Buy and use both! :)
I feel very fortunate to have many choices for high quality hand and power tools that don't cost a house payment.

-Brian

[Chris Hachet]

Buy and use both! :)
I feel very fortunate to have many choices for high quality hand and power tools that don't cost a house payment.

-Brian

Agreed. I just wish I had more money to pursue my latest little passion, which is getting a few more Japanese saws and chisels.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Interesting thread, but here I was hoping it was about using a PM-V11 blade in a Lie Nielsen plane. (I still think I could make one work in my LN BU jack if the hole for the cap pass through is in the right place, and just grind an adjuster a lot after the fact)