Measuring plane curls Anal but interesting.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Hi All,

I was just curious what thickness shavings I was removing with my planes. I first used a Stanley no. 7 and it was cutting curls about .0025" pretty consistently.

Next I took my no. 4 and it was cutting arond .002. These were the thinnest I could get. The no. 7 looks a mess since I never really cleaned it up and that's my next thing to do. It looks like there's varnish on the sole but at least the whole sole is very flat except for the heel.

I've flattened the sole of the no. 4 and it's all cleaned up. Both planes have 25 degree bevels and sharpend to 8000 grit on a water stone.

What do you think about these results? Should I be able to get thinner shavings?

[Jerry Palmer]

With a bunch of fiddling I have been able to get ~.0015 " shavings with my smoother, but that was just to see what I COULD do with it. In the end, what is left on the workpiece is more important that what you take off. :D


And,of course, the wood itself has a lot to do with the thickness of shavings. I get what seem to be quite thinner shavings in cherry than what I can with walnut and especially white oak. I've not measured or compared them, just seems that way, and as long as the surface left behind is what I'm after, I happy.

I've never tried to get super thin shavings with my jointer, just thin.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi All,

...Snip...

What do you think about these results? Should I be able to get thinner shavings?

As Jerry said: "In the end, what is left on the workpiece is more important that what you take off."

Can someone get thinner shavings? Yes. Is it always practical? No. Unless you are participating in a thin shaving contest all that really matters is that you obtain the surface quality you intend.

That's all.

MikeW

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Hi Guys,

I should explain that the reason I'm doing this is to increase performance of the plane and to make it easier on me when planing. I figured that a thinner cut would result in a better surface and less effort. Make sense?

I agree the finish you leave is what counts and this is what I'm striving for. I'm trying to set up my no. 4 as a smoother but I have a feeling I'm not there yet.

[Tyler Howell]

Hi All,


What do you think about these results? Should I be able to get thinner shavings?

I think I don't see any light and fluffies???:mad: This is on the verge of a gloat.... Let's see some Pix.:mad:
I've been too nice to you guys:mad: :rolleyes:
Good luck Alan. Keep feddling;)

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Hey Tyler, I thought of taking pics of the "light and fluffies" but I didn't because I thought it would make me look like a total nut case. :) I mean who goes around taking pics of that. It's not like I got a new "toy" or something. :(

Can we have an exception to the picture rule like for instance when said picture makes you look like you're nuts? I think this is only reasonable. :) Alan in Md.

[chris toomey]

can one appreciate the difference between .0025 and .0015 ?

[Mike Wenzloff]

can one appreciate the difference between .0025 and .0015 ?

Yes. Not only in the feel of the wood (generally) but in the increased effort in taking a larger shaving. Thicker = Harder

Mike

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Hi Allen. Well as people always argue [and with good reason] it is the surface that is left that matters. Having said that though, yes you should strive for shavings around .001". Even with a crested [cambered] iron, you still want the thinest possible shavings for your final smoothing to eliminate any plane tracks or ridges. The thinner the shaving the easier it is to do a perfect smoothing job. Peter

[Chris Padilla]

Alan,

How about comparing the thickness of the shaving to the depth of cut of your blade on the plane? I would hazard they should be close to the same....

How are you people measuring 0.0005"??? All my dials have graduations to the nearest 0.001". I guess you are "guesstimating" from here on....

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Guys,
I should explain that the reason I'm doing this is to increase performance of the plane and to make it easier on me when planing. I figured that a thinner cut would result in a better surface and less effort. Make sense?

Hi Alan, it is true a finer shaving will takes less effort to push the plane. Depending on how thin a shaving and whether the surface is even ready for that fine of work via the smoother, though, you may find that it takes so many more strokes that what effort required is gained by the fine shaving is lost in the number of strokes.

Others may chime in on their method of work. This is but mine. If I am going to do all stock prep by hand (that's a real if), this is how I go about it. This assumes the stock has been flattened by some means but not thicknessed.

1) I use an appropriately sized plane for the board in front of me to waste down to thickness. That may mean a #5, #6 or an #8. Sometimes that has meant even smaller (say picture frame stock, etc.). This leaves valleys and hills, so to speak as those planes have a slight cambor to them. I would say the shaving at that point borders between moderate and heavy (not as heavy as the scrub). I stop before the dips are below the scibed line indicating final thickness. I also account for any tearout in its relation to final depth.

2) I then use the same size plane that is set for a much finer cut, but still not as fine as the final smoother. This plane is only used to flatten the marks from above, to work on wasting down any further (seems like I always leave at least one place a little thick). I am still just at or above the line. Like the shavings produced above, I have no idea how thick they are because I do not measure.

I do not measure as this would be pointless--on this board or that board there will be adjustments made to account for hardness of wood or grain reversal, tear-out etc.

3) The first smoother. Again, depending on the work and or the wood being used, I will reach for one of 6 smoothers. One will work better than another on this or that wood. These 6 smoothers all take between 1.5 and 1 thou shavings. I then use the "right" one to finalize getting the panel smooth and free of any blemishes caused by work to this point. I may elect to stop at this smoother, and often do.

4) If I choose to go on, it then gets smoothed using a small smoother from Knight. It fits in one hand and it literally is simply rubbed over the surface. Generally it is used with the grain. But I do not need to pay attention and it generally is used with a sweeping motion best described as an arc. This plane takes a sub thou shaving. How thin a shaving? I don't know. It's to fine to see between 0 and 1 with my dial calipers. I don't own any digital calipers. It's left of the 1 but not touching 0.

And this small smoother is only used on those parts that are "show" surfaces--flat exposed surfaces, raised door panels, maybe the entire piece if it is a display cabinet.

The point here I suppose, is that the smoothers are only used for a few strokes. It's the prep work that makes me tired. If you are pulling a 1 or 1.5 thou shaving on your smoother and if it leaves behind the surface you are expecting, that's great.

But that is simply how I work. It's not the best or the worse way, whatever those are. It really comes down to how you feel about the work and if your results are within your expectations.

Mike

[Alan Tolchinsky]

This is interesting. Chris I don't know how I'd measure the "depth of cut" on the plane but I guess the only thing that matters is what the surface looks llike in the end. Peter I'm going to try for .0001" shavings and see if I can do that. I don't think my old Stanley planes can do that. Maybe they could with Hock blades. I'm thinking of replacing at least the blade on my no. 4 plane.

Mike, it must be nice to have 6 smoothers. If you ever run out of room I have plenty here. :) Your technique makes sense to me. I eventually want to reduce my sanding to only 220 grit or eliminate it totally. That's my goal. Thanks for explaining your technique.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Snip...
Mike, it must be nice to have 6 smoothers. If you ever run out of room I have plenty here. :) Your technique makes sense to me...
:D Made me chuckle...Y'all may not believe how small my shop is...

I might have one or two tools, but space is something I don't have. I would say the shop is 11' x 11', but that's not really accurate. One would have to add the square footage within the house I take up at times--some of it semi-permanently (ask my wife :) )

I have the planes I have because I found early on that for whatever reason, no one plane worked as well in the exotics I usually work. Curly Maple? No problem.

Try this. Look at the first picture, Bubinga.jpg......
http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/mikes_wood/
I also added a few pics of how I've taken over the house...those pics begin with the filename 'overran'.

That slab of Bubinga was one of two. Its brother was, well, difficult. I expect this one will be too. But some of the other woods there are nearly as bad.

So, I have a couple 50 deg Knight smoothers. But it tears out a little too bad. What's the solution? Performax sander? Eh, sometimes. No, it was a reason to get another Knight at 60 degress, of course <g>. Next step fromt he 60 deg is the scrapers.

But I've done this for a few years and the tools just kinda grow.

Mike

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Mike, I love those pictures. Yep, you are overran allright. :) The wood in the closet really made me smile. But if you're going to overran a house it might as well be with wood. And that is some beautiful wood you've got there. Alan in Md.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Yeah, guests usually chuckle about the closet too...

The planks on top behind stuff are mine. The 3 drawers of wood (and it's a deep little cabinet) are my wife's wood. The bottom drawer is all pen blanks: 10" deep, 40" wide and just about 3' deep. You should see her store of turning blanks, log chunks (incl. several pink ivory), and what else...more pen blanks--all in our walk-in closet in our room <g>. She probably has over 2000 pen blanks at any one time.

She's every bit as bad as I am. But it must work as yesterday was our 31st anniversary.

Take care, Mike

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Oh no Mike, your wife is in this too. There is no hope. :) Hey congrats on your anniversary. My 32nd is coming up Aug. 4. Wow where does the time fly?

[Mike Wenzloff]

Oh no Mike, your wife is in this too. There is no hope.
Oh, we're totally doomed! As you can guess from what I said here wood is, she's a turner. Makes beautiful vessels.

A year or so ago I bought her a Jet mini lathe so she could make some pens. The it was the Jet 1442. Of relavance to our discussion though, is she stresses about the sharpness of her tools, how thin a shaving she can pull off the piece she is turning. I tell her the same thing. In part it is the tool, in part it is the user.

For a turner, it is less about the tool's sharpness than the user. For handplanes it is more about the tool than the user. Nonetheless, those two things work hand in hand. For us, the sharper the blade, the flatter the plane's sole and the tightness of the mouth combine with us, the user in our ability to adjust the tool and use it consistent with its intended use.

:) Hey congrats on your anniversary. My 32nd is coming up Aug. 4. Wow where does the time fly?
It's coming up quick. Congrats to you and yours.

Mike

[Jerry Palmer]

Yes. Not only in the feel of the wood (generally) but in the increased effort in taking a larger shaving. Thicker = Harder

Generally, increased effort is required for a thicker shaving, but I have to wonder about how much more effort it requires to take 25 ten thousandths as opposed to 15 ten thousandths?:D

I do agree that you need to work down to the point of taking those finish shavings as it might take a while at even .0025 inches to remove any amount of material around even minute depressions in the wood.

Chris,
You mean you don't have one of the layest supersonic lazer calipers that measure to molecular thickness levels? :D Nah, my dial calipers only go down to .001". When the pointer is ~ half way between two line I "guesstimate" it is in the range of .0005. Pretty AR for wood, I guess, but . . .

[Mike Wenzloff]

I suppose it depends on the wood as regards "feeling" the difference in effort. As I use mostly woods like cocobolo, bubinga, et al, I cannot take a deep cut--at least not many. It's not worth the effort. More strokes are easier.

The planes I use for leveling/thicknessing are set to take not a very deep cut. I resaw pretty close to final. Once the bench planes being used to level get past the BS marks and take full shavings it gets a lot tougher.

When I then switch to the first smoothers, which take half the thickness of shaving, there is a difference. When I switch to the final little smoother, there's a heck of a difference.

Part of that is the difference in width of cut, I'm sure. But it is also a finer cut.

Mike

[Dave Anderson NH]

Shaving thickness is and of itself not really important in most uses. For a scrub plane I try and take off thick shavings to get rid of the waste more quickly- sometimes up to .03" thick or more. As I move to four square and produce a planar surface on the board, I go for thinner shavings the closer I get to my finished thickness. The goal here is to take as thick a shaving as you can without getting tearout. Remember, the thinner the shaving the more strokes you are taking and the longer it takes to get the job done. As I approach final thickness I start to worry about the finish and the final surface, THEN I start to take those really thin shavings. Most of the shavings for my ready to finish surface run from .0015 to .0005 depending on the wood and the grain. Burls, crotches, curly figure, ribbon stripe, and other reversing and irregular grain require thinner shavings and a really sharp blade to prevent tearout. You might have to sharpen as many as 4-5 times just to complete one board 12" x36". You are also probably going to have to experiment with which blade pitch works best on a particualar sample of wood. This is definately NOT "one size fits all."

[Keith Christopher]

Tyler, been waiting on you to chime in here about the lack of pics. :) We all talk about how merciless you are about it. hehehe.