Sigma 6k or ?

[Henry Burlingame III]

Hi everyone,

I recently upgraded my waterstones (I had a few Naniwa Superstones) with Stu's Sigma 1200, 6000, 13000 set. I also ordered the Sigma 400 and Cerax 320 to see if I could find a good course stone as well.

Anyway, I was doing a bunch of plane blade backs, and when doing that much steel I was having a hard time using the Sigma 6000 to get rid of the scratches from the Sigma 1200. So I went ahead and got a Chosera 3k to go in between those two.

I absolutely LOVE the Chosera 3k... I think it is my favorite stone of any I have ever tried. So now I am wondering if I would like the Chosera 5k as much. Out of all the Sigma stones the 6k is my least favorite (doesn't seem very fast, doesn't leave that great of a polish, easy to load if you don't watch your technique, etc.). But this is also in the grit range I have the least experience with--I only have the Naniwa SS 5k to compare it to--which leaves a much better polish than the Sigma 6k but is also a little slower.

So I was wondering if anyone has had experience with both the sigma 6k as well as the chosera 5k (and maybe some others in this grit range), and could tell me the differences and which they prefer.

Thanks!

[Matthew N. Masail]

The Chosera 3k is my favorite waterstone also. If I were to add another Chosera I would add the Snow-White 8K which is pretty much the same as the Chosera line but only like 90$ from TFJ. with that said, I don't go higher than the 3K Chosera and a strop, and my chisels pare end grain perfectly, my plane blades cut as well as any edge. you don't NEED anything more.

[Harry Rosal]

^ With that in mind- that a today's "3K" pares end grain- would i be happy with a suehiro rika then for the next step? The variable grit ability of it has me confused. And also, the grit deflation where today's japanese ratings are finer. (The classic king 1000 grit used in the makita 9820 SURE is rougher than todays 1K for example, very apparent to a mere weekender like me.) And this doesn't include the interchange of grit equivalence between brands (is it significant?)

So in other words, if i were in the original poster's same situation (coming off a 1200) would a rika just be redundant for a cho 3K, or is it a contender after it along the suggested sigma 6K?

Many thanks to those who'll post to confuse me more! ^_^

[David Weaver]

I would go straight from the 3k chosera (which is a 4 micron stone) to the snow white (which is probably a 2 micron stone or thereabouts).

I have never seen anyone say much positive about the chosera 5k, it's a 3 micron stone (which is what I believe the shapton 5k is), and it's just a step in the process to the 10k for the funny types who want a knife bevel that's extremely polished, and perfectly so (as in I think it's only worth having if you're honing high end knives for pay where customers look across your bevel in raking light and complain if it's not a mirror).

[Matthew N. Masail]

I don't like to use more than 1 stone to polish\hone. that means If I use a Cho 3k that's where I end (strop not included). if I use a 8k, I'll use it after my "1k" and end there.
if the honing stone cannot remove scratches well enough, it doesn't mean I'll use a 3 stone set-up, it means the stone I'm starting on is too aggressive. case in point - you can go from a 1.2sigma to a 10K gokumyo no problem, but not from some other 1k stones.

This is done for practical reason, it makes sharpening fast, easy and dependable, messing around with extra stones free-handing lowers accuracy and just takes more time for a minor if any gain. this is because your technique will effect how fine an edge you can get, and a strop will smooth out most edges. if you work the edge with very light pressure at the end in order to "feather" the edge to a fine crisp invisible point, you'll be surprised how much sharper your blades are. this is, IMO, much better than relaying on the stones partical size. it is the single most valuable thing I learnt from figuring out oil stones.

if I use a 3rd stone, it will be a coarse one instead of a grinder.

There is a lower limit, I won't sharpen to only 1k, but the Cho 3K is perfectly good. whether or not I'd like the 8K depends on how well it takes over after my 1k of choice, and one might need to mate it with the correct 1K, or 2K. the finer a stone you can get away with as your first step, even at expense of a little extra rubbing the better IMO, but it must allow you control of the bevel, and have enough cutting power to remove the wear bevel.

[David Weaver]

Matthew, that is exactly the reason I use the washita alone for most things. There is no second edge or anything to worry about or have to go steeper than.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I know. the only thing that's taught me more about sharpening than you is experience ! Unfortunately I have yet to find a stone that will work well enough to create a burr and erase the wear bevel and at the same time be fine enough. using a 'slightly convex micro bevel" (like P. Sellers but I hollow grind to keep the bevel small), I've learned to feel\hear when I'm on the edge and the more I sharpen the better I get at it, so smoothing out after a 1k is not a big deal at all, anymore than that just ruins the process. Sadly, I've put my Gokumyo on the bay, but I'm glad I got it out of my system.

[David Weaver]

I sold the gok 20 last week, too, but I sold it on a razor board. There are razor people who need it, and it's a stone that will make a razor sharp with little skill. It was worth it to me to try it to find out if my stones/linen/leather were any short of what it's capable of (and the answer is no, they are not, though it's taken me a while to find a vintage system and develop the skill with it - something you don't have to do with the gok).

In terms of a small convex bevel, I never hone on the flats except maybe from time to time with a paring chisel, but even then not. With a single stone, you can set the tool on the bevel and then give the edge one slight lift. There is never a failed edge with it, and sometimes on the flats you have to work a bit because the flats are polished but the edge still has some damage. Never happens when you lift the handle a little bit, and with one stone, there's never a question about whether all of the stones are working the same span.

The result is a tiny small convex bevel. Nothing will be perfectly flat that way because there's no stable surface, but it creates a lovely edge super fast and is very stingy with metal (which appeals to me for some reason).

[Henry Burlingame III]

Thanks everyone, you have given me a lot to think about.

As far as the 8k snow-white goes is that the best stone in the 8k range?

Also, would I be able to go straight from the 1.2k sigma to the 8k snow-white on a microbevel? People have mentioned that the 1.2k sigma is pretty fine for a 1k stone, but mine seems to leave a few pretty deep scratches that take quite a bit of work to get rid of (the 1k naniwa superstone I have leaves much finer scratches but is way too slow). I can even seem to get a better finish off of the sigma 400 if I am not too heavy handed.

[Matthew N. Masail]

You can easily go from the 1.2sigma to a 8k snow-white. I've got straight to a 10K gokumyo, which is a finer stone than the snow-white.


Strange what you say about the 1.2 sigma, does it take you much work to remove the scratches with the Cho 3k? my 1.2k give a very refined consistent scratch patter compared to the coarser dull gray mess other 1k stones leave (don't count the Naniwa Superstone). if I let the 1.2k load a little (doesn't have to be much) I can get a edge the shaves hair straight of it, it will cut edge grain but doesn't last too long. that would be a good exercise to. mm.. hone your skills. Honestly, I wish I had a 1.2k like stone that didn't load as much or require soaking, that would be a great stone.


The 1K superstone has been talked about several time over here, you could do a search, basically it's said that it's abrasive is soft and breaks down and starts to polish, not like most 1k stones.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Oh and by the way, asking what is "the best" is common amateur question that reflects a lack of understanding or practicality. it's also a modern thing about looking for "the best", which really does not define anything, instead of what works for your given need (for most of us normal woodworking with normal woods). if you want to have bliss with tools, find what works - there is nothing better than a tool that does it's job and you enjoy using.


Written by one who learned the hard way, for those who might do the same. (and also a little rant because few will acually read this..)

[Henry Burlingame III]

Strange what you say about the 1.2 sigma, does it take you much work to remove the scratches with the Cho 3k? my 1.2k give a very refined consistent scratch patter compared to the coarser dull gray mess other 1k stones leave (don't count the Naniwa Superstone). if I let the 1.2k load a little (doesn't have to be much) I can get a edge the shaves hair straight of it, it will cut edge grain but doesn't last too long. that would be a good exercise to. mm.. hone your skills. Honestly, I wish I had a 1.2k like stone that didn't load as much or require soaking, that would be a great stone.

It doesn't take much to remove them from a small bevel, but when using the 3k after the 1.2k on the backs of plane blades it is probably about 30min or more to remove the deepest of the scratches. And my sigma 1,2k doesn't load at all, no matter what I do... strange :-).

[Christian Castillo]

When I do use waterstones, I go from a Bester 1.2K to an 8K snow white, I've tried plenty of 8k stones, I've settled on the snow white as my favorite.

[Matthew N. Masail]

It doesn't take much to remove them from a small bevel, but when using the 3k after the 1.2k on the backs of plane blades it is probably about 30min or more to remove the deepest of the scratches. And my sigma 1,2k doesn't load at all, no matter what I do... strange :-).

First of all, if that's true, my stone is defective !

Secondly, are you sure it's the 1.2k, sigma has two other white 1k stones. either way, you should be able to use it with snow-white, it's probably one of the best set-ups you can have, though I'd switch to a 1k shapton for a overall no-soak system.

[David Weaver]

Matthew, I wouldn't say mine loads, but it does get dark and it does feel pretty fine cutting for its rating (when you compare it to a nearby 1k stone or the bester 1.2k)

I doubt your stone is defective. It's an extremely hard stone, and bound to break in some in use, and without lots of water, load a little bit. It's a good maintenance stone, though - I guess all of them really are, but the SP 1.2k is like a finer harder alternative to a bester 1.2k, and it definitely stays flat.

the bester is my favorite soaker, though. It should be cheap if bought right, it's coarse and fast, etc. The bester 1k is OK, but it's more of a knife stone (smoother, more muddy and less aggressive/toothy), so definitely the 1.2k bester - they are entirely different stones.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Yeah the Besters seem to be unique which is a little confusing. I haven't used the 1.2k bester but the 2k is amazing, fast and coarse but it's scratches are removed fast, a little soft, but still good enough. I also found the 1k bester to be meh.. is works, not bad at all, not great. I only sharpen my kitchen knives with the 1.2k sigma, because it's fine enough, but I have little idea what is nice for knives, I don't give it nearly as much care as tools.

Mostly I use the Sigma for back work because it really does stay flat, and cuts very strongly, but it loads and need to be lapped often to keep cutting strongly. the loading isn't a big deal for bevel work. you are right it has broken in since new, when new it was awful, now it's great, I enjoy using it very much, it just loads a little more than I like. but for tools I don't use anything that need soaking anymore.
I plan on getting the new Naniwa 4k 'Haybusa', if I like it maybe the 8K Fuji also, they have gotten some pretty amazing reviews. and I like the 'ceramic' feel in stones more than I like the Chosera feel.
I also HAVE TO try a 1k shapton.. if nothing more than to get it out of my system.